The topic is about personal attacks. It is wrong to engage in personal attacks. I never learned in TWI that personal attacks were right. I didn't learn in the Baptist Church that personal attacks are okay. Everyday, in the political races that are going on we hear about mudslinging and dirty politics. Personal attacks are wrong no matter who they are directed against.
That's just too funny Bible Dave!
I don't suppose you were ever called out in the middle of the night by a limb leader and made to sit in total darkness and silence until the mighty MOG himself appeared and told you all what worthless pieces of cr@p you all were and that the ministry was going down the tubes because you, representing the birthplace of the only ministry that ever mattered, were total screw-ups.
I don't suppose you were ever publicly ridiculed, belittled and told that's you are not supposed to think, you are supposed to jump when the MOG says jump without pausing to question.
Think that stuff didn't happen?There were 49 people in the room, besides myself, when those 2 occurrences took place.
And there were more---lots and lots more.
No. nobody stood in a pulpit and said" take your Bibles and turn to----" but if you see this stuff often enough it is the same as being taught by example.
Guess I was a poor student, though because I just couldn't bring myself to utilize those kind of tactics.
There's about a gazillion accounts here on GSC of people being "taught" that very thing by virtue of example.
PS--Say, can I have some of your purple Osley berries?
She never did say a word about what happens OUTSIDE her house...Like in Texas...
Now, now lets not talk out of school... And do remember who was fixing the drinks. I really did get me a bottle of 12 year old Rum that was aged in an untainted oak cask, no rye in this bottle! Problem is you're supposed to sip it not mix it. But maybe I'll try it in a Mojito anyway. I better make sure that I'm staying at home when I do cause its pretty certain that it will set me on my tail.
I don't suppose you were ever called out in the middle of the night by a limb leader and made to sit in total darkness and silence until the mighty MOG himself appeared and told you all what worthless pieces of cr@p you all were and that the ministry was going down the tubes because you, representing the birthplace of the only ministry that ever mattered, were total screw-ups.
I don't suppose you were ever publicly ridiculed, belittled and told that's you are not supposed to think, you are supposed to jump when the MOG says jump without pausing to question.
Think that stuff didn't happen?There were 49 people in the room, besides myself, when those 2 occurrences took place.
And there were more---lots and lots more.
No. nobody stood in a pulpit and said" take your Bibles and turn to----" but if you see this stuff often enough it is the same as being taught by example.
Guess I was a poor student, though because I just couldn't bring myself to utilize those kind of tactics.
There's about a gazillion accounts here on GSC of people being "taught" that very thing by virtue of example.
I remember my parents telling something about a "living example"...let me think now...oh that's right Jesus Christ was our living example. Somehow some of the MOGsters didn't really emulate JC. Hence it would not be wise to imitate them. Good call on your part Waysider!
So Dave, we await your return and your imput.
Only Champagne, caviar, lovely hors d'oeuvres, and your imagination is za maine course! I am sure it was za same in ohio or kaansaas, or le camp gunnison??? Oui?? ;)
Are you kidding? The closest we came to any of this was if we caught a pregnant Salmon in the Gunnison. Then we had to put her back. Imagination was all we had and it was closely monitored.
Sex in the Way Corps was kind of like Sex was in College...some people were doing it and some were not. Considering the Corps that I was in I would find it very strange if the majority of my Corps were not more interested in keeping their noses and activities out of the realm of "trouble" than they were in sex. Maybe at Corps week where you could hide amongst the rest of the Corps but while in res....not. As I said we were very closely monitored. Not saying that it never happened, especially before Christmas but after POP...not.
I just wanted to second what Waysider said. I was there, too, for most of the FLO crap. He was "blessed" with an extra year. Lots of personal attacks, being stood up in front of a group and yelled at by a puffed up little pipsqueak.
I was a Marine and I lived through events just like that in training. I think there was an element of Marine style training intended if I recall what I've heard correctly.
I'm starting to think that instead of the marine type training, what happened was that the yelling fed the egos of the yellers and crushed the hearts of the yelled at.
I mean really, don't treat kids like Marines. Looking back; it seems obvious.
Italian Shark? :blink: Where? Does she have pasta? I bet she doesn't put pineapple on her pizza!
How many rows of teeth do you have Eyes? I think you may need them all - and then some.;)
No nasty pasta for the Italian shark until she makes more chicken tortilla soup for the German, French and Irish shark that just happens to love Mexican food! (I'm not prejudice...I've never met a food I didn't like!) Especially cheese dip!
I have six rows of teeth, three on the top and three on the bottom. And I get new sharp pointy ones every two weeks or so...
I don't know you well yet, but I'm kind of prefering to think of you as a leapordess. It's not that a leapord can't be fierce enough, or as fierce as a shark. After all, five of six ends are sharp and dangerous.
It's just that a leapord is also kind to it's young and fiercely protective. A leapord can even be as cute and cuddly as a kitten too, although I'd personally never be quick to forget it's not a kitten and could in fact tear me up.
All right --- I'm a small fish in a big pond here, but I'm getting tired-as-Hell-of-hearing
the *accusation* of "personal attacks". I'm wondering how other's *categorize* them??
I've been accused of personal attacks by some of the docvic "worshippers", for simply stating things I've heard, and calling the poster on it in question for what they *claimed* to be truth. Fer what it's worth -- I haven't got a beef with ANYONE here, but some folks sure like to make it seem that way.
It's ironic (to me) that those of us who have knowledge of wrong-doing by twi to the *believer populace*, and say so to (certain) posters here get accused of being *personal attackers*. All in all -- I see the *attacking* coming from the docvic worshippers. Hanging on to a *legacy* (if you will), that is comparable to the broken cistern that holds no water.
As I said -- I have no beef with anyone here, but some folks seem to have the blinders on their eyes.
It's a sorry state of affairs, when folks give FIRST-HAND witness to events, and they are ignored by others.
I started this thread so as not to detract from the other one in *About the Way*.
Discuss, or ignore. I needed to *vent*.
Paw/ Mods -- if this is in the wrong forum -- please move it.
I don't post here that much, but man oo man - your like the man bro. people just get over it and move on you are all sooo bitter
It's ironic (to me) that those of us who have knowledge of wrong-doing by twi to the *believer populace*, and say so to (certain) posters here get accused of being *personal attackers*. All in all -- I see the *attacking* coming from the docvic worshippers. Hanging on to a *legacy* (if you will), that is comparable to the broken cistern that holds no water.
As I said -- I have no beef with anyone here, but some folks seem to have the blinders on their eyes.
It's a sorry state of affairs, when folks give FIRST-HAND witness to events, and they are ignored by others.
(snip)
I don't post here that much, but man oo man - your like the man bro. people just get over it and move on you are all sooo bitter
...and, dmiller's point is CONFIRMED. He reports wrongdoing he's seen, and instead of getting offended
by the WRONGDOING, someone makes it all dmiller's fault for telling anyone of wrongdoing.
So,
wrongdoing is acceptable,
reporting or discussing wrongdoing is bad and repugnant.
Seems to me the values-system some use- which was instilled in twi- is in error.
I don't know you well yet, but I'm kind of prefering to think of you as a leapordess. It's not that a leapord can't be fierce enough, or as fierce as a shark. After all, five of six ends are sharp and dangerous.
It's just that a leapord is also kind to it's young and fiercely protective. A leapord can even be as cute and cuddly as a kitten too, although I'd personally never be quick to forget it's not a kitten and could in fact tear me up.
Hey, if you want to stick with shark, O.K. :)
Hehehe...the shark thing is a joke. I was labeled a shark by someone who is no longer welcome at GS. He described me as a "shark in the water looking for blood" hence the tag line and the many references to the shark. We have also done a thread dedicated to the "three sharks" on this board. We were called such in that thread because of our direct and honest natures.
Were I to liken myself to some other animal it would most definately be some sort of cat. I have a personal preference for the white tiger and have in fact been labeled that previously. In fact the "leader" of the west coast crips so dubbed me once when he was incarcerated. He called me that because I am white and my character is similar to a tiger. They are quiet, layed back creatures that prefer warmth and comfort. They are fiercely loyal to their young and their families. They are perfectly willing to let you hang out in their area unless you appear to be a danger to anything that they consider theirs, like their family or family unit or their food. Then they become all sharp objects, claws and teeth.
But I like your analogy as well, leopards are warm and fuzzy too.
All right --- I'm a small fish in a big pond here, but I'm getting tired-as-Hell-of-hearing
the *accusation* of "personal attacks". I'm wondering how other's *categorize* them??
I've been accused of personal attacks by some of the docvic "worshippers", for simply stating things I've heard, and calling the poster on it in question for what they *claimed* to be truth. Fer what it's worth -- I haven't got a beef with ANYONE here, but some folks sure like to make it seem that way.
It's ironic (to me) that those of us who have knowledge of wrong-doing by twi to the *believer populace*, and say so to (certain) posters here get accused of being *personal attackers*. All in all -- I see the *attacking* coming from the docvic worshippers. Hanging on to a *legacy* (if you will), that is comparable to the broken cistern that holds no water.
As I said -- I have no beef with anyone here, but some folks seem to have the blinders on their eyes.
It's a sorry state of affairs, when folks give FIRST-HAND witness to events, and they are ignored by others.
I started this thread so as not to detract from the other one in *About the Way*.
Discuss, or ignore. I needed to *vent*.
Paw/ Mods -- if this is in the wrong forum -- please move it.
Mr. Miller - you know you're one of my fav posters here and you make some good points for the start of this thread.
The short answer - those who have blinders choose to wear them and don't expect your posts or anyone else's will take those blinders off. Those people are comfortable in their little ostrich worlds. Leave 'em be. They're happy. They also need more edumacating (sic) on the semantics of "personal attack" vs. "point of view".
Personally speaking - I don't have major issues with VPW, sorry. I don't think I have blinders on but believe he was a man. I'm aware of his sins but still glad I took PFAL. I sift through what I was taught, cling to that which is good, and don't claim to have the market cornered on the truth.
Finally - I certainly believe you and others who have testified about VPW's fallacies, but honestly... I take it all in, usually with a grain of salt and weigh it against what I know. If it's really nutty (remember that thread about the secret society of WC a couple of years back? You'd have thought they were meeting to eat the raw livers of young virgins, according to one poster) then I discard it - but don't call it a "personal attack".
You want to be spiritual, try restoring someone in a spirit of meekness. Meekness, gentleness, patience, not striving with anyone: These are spiritual virtues. I think those virtues are very plainly written about, but appear to be lacking in your comments to dmiller.
Wordwolf,
Hear,hear, well said.
ChasUFarley,
I feel pretty much the same.
Eyesopen,
I value people who have the guts to correct me when I'm wrong. I gladly count them as friends if they're a friend to me. Even if they aren't a friend to me I don't feel I have the right to treat them badly. Sometimes the hard issues require more than sweetness to deal with though, don't they!?
I finally just read through this whole thread. Personal attacks are bad. Being kind is good. I am guilty of both. When an argument gets heated, I think that because we are not literally "face to face" for reals, it is more tempting to lash with the tongue (with typed words, in this case, i.e. flame), but the words are still hurtfull. I guess part of the thing that upsets people who still try to hold to the good that they were taught in The Way, is that there are people here who simply think "oh, you are still Way Brained, you are still duped, you are in denial". In other words, "your whole life is wrong and therefore a waste". Which of course couldn't be further from the truth. Conversely it is just as wrong to say to those who were personally hurt that, "You are just making this crap up, I never saw it". And so, when wrong accusations are made, it gets very personal and it hurts.
Why thank you Waysider! And a Harpy New Year to you too! Yeah, I am trying to figure out how to put a song I recorded on some "sharing file" so I can share it here. I did a rendition of "Georgia On My Mind" with a friend which I am proud of. Maybe folks here would like to hear it some time.
a very good friend of mine says.. the only thing the kabballah authorizes us to practice are acts of kindness, and that's it.. no hookypookism or such..
I don't suppose you were ever called out in the middle of the night by a limb leader and made to sit in total darkness and silence until the mighty MOG himself appeared and told you all what worthless pieces of cr@p you all were and that the ministry was going down the tubes because you, representing the birthplace of the only ministry that ever mattered, were total screw-ups.
I don't suppose you were ever publicly ridiculed, belittled and told that's you are not supposed to think, you are supposed to jump when the MOG says jump without pausing to question.
Think that stuff didn't happen?There were 49 people in the room, besides myself, when those 2 occurrences took place.
And there were more---lots and lots more.
No. nobody stood in a pulpit and said" take your Bibles and turn to----" but if you see this stuff often enough it is the same as being taught by example.
Guess I was a poor student, though because I just couldn't bring myself to utilize those kind of tactics.
There's about a gazillion accounts here on GSC of people being "taught" that very thing by virtue of example.
PS--Say, can I have some of your purple Osley berries?
I guess I left TWI at the right time, in '87 when the vast majority left. No, I was never subjected to personal attacks. That still doesn't justify personal attacks. And you people launch personal attacks back at TWI, that still doesn't mean it is right and doesn't make it right. The Bible clearly talks about forgiving one another. The Bible clearly indicates that we are to comfort one another and speak truth with one another. If you were subjected to personal attacks, I am truly and sincerely sorry that happened to you. It still doesn't make it right. Society in general, whether we are dealing with fundamentalist Christianity or your average Joe Bow, doesn't hold personal attacks as being right. If we fire back personal attacks just because we suffered unkind things while in TWI, we are just as back or worse, because we know better.
I agree with you that "2 wrongs don't make a right."
However, I don't think giving a factual account of something negative constitutes an attack.
From what we've seen unfold through personal testimonies, Wierwille was an opportunistic, narcissistic, self serving, self centered, skirt chasing, drunken con-man who had a well documented propensity for sexual predation and psychological bullying. And those are words of description, not attack.
If, however, those descriptors were false, then the same words would be an attack.
Yes, you are right that it is not beneficial to inordinately fixate on past traumas.
But at the same time, it's unhealthy to hide this stuff and pretend it never happened.
I personally felt a sense of guilt for a long time about leaving the "one true household of God".
I don't feel that anymore.
Why?
Because I have learned(via GSC) that TWI was nothing more than a run of the mill cult.
Why should I feel guilty that I let God down simply because I chose to leave a cult?
I didn't come to that realization because people chose to sugar coat the past. I came to that realization because there were people here who had the guts to face the truth and speak out about it.
One faces the future with one's past.-------Pearl S. Buck
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waysider
That's just too funny Bible Dave!
I don't suppose you were ever called out in the middle of the night by a limb leader and made to sit in total darkness and silence until the mighty MOG himself appeared and told you all what worthless pieces of cr@p you all were and that the ministry was going down the tubes because you, representing the birthplace of the only ministry that ever mattered, were total screw-ups.
I don't suppose you were ever publicly ridiculed, belittled and told that's you are not supposed to think, you are supposed to jump when the MOG says jump without pausing to question.
Think that stuff didn't happen?There were 49 people in the room, besides myself, when those 2 occurrences took place.
And there were more---lots and lots more.
No. nobody stood in a pulpit and said" take your Bibles and turn to----" but if you see this stuff often enough it is the same as being taught by example.
Guess I was a poor student, though because I just couldn't bring myself to utilize those kind of tactics.
There's about a gazillion accounts here on GSC of people being "taught" that very thing by virtue of example.
PS--Say, can I have some of your purple Osley berries?
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Eyesopen
Now, now lets not talk out of school...
And do remember who was fixing the drinks. 
I really did get me a bottle of 12 year old Rum that was aged in an untainted oak cask, no rye in this bottle! Problem is you're supposed to sip it not mix it. But maybe I'll try it in a Mojito anyway. I better make sure that I'm staying at home when I do cause its pretty certain that it will set me on my tail.
I remember my parents telling something about a "living example"...let me think now...oh that's right Jesus Christ was our living example. Somehow some of the MOGsters didn't really emulate JC. Hence it would not be wise to imitate them. Good call on your part Waysider!
So Dave, we await your return and your imput.
Are you kidding? The closest we came to any of this was if we caught a pregnant Salmon in the Gunnison. Then we had to put her back. Imagination was all we had and it was closely monitored.
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Bumpy
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rascal
Bumpy...were you ever actually in the way corps?
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Eyesopen
Sex in the Way Corps was kind of like Sex was in College...some people were doing it and some were not. Considering the Corps that I was in I would find it very strange if the majority of my Corps were not more interested in keeping their noses and activities out of the realm of "trouble" than they were in sex. Maybe at Corps week where you could hide amongst the rest of the Corps but while in res....not. As I said we were very closely monitored. Not saying that it never happened, especially before Christmas but after POP...not.
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Watered Garden
I just wanted to second what Waysider said. I was there, too, for most of the FLO crap. He was "blessed" with an extra year. Lots of personal attacks, being stood up in front of a group and yelled at by a puffed up little pipsqueak.
Sucked like an open chest wound.
WG
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JeffSjo
I was a Marine and I lived through events just like that in training. I think there was an element of Marine style training intended if I recall what I've heard correctly.
I'm starting to think that instead of the marine type training, what happened was that the yelling fed the egos of the yellers and crushed the hearts of the yelled at.
I mean really, don't treat kids like Marines. Looking back; it seems obvious.
gotta go y'all. GOD BLESS
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Eyesopen
What a very colorful description! It really paints a vivid picture.
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Eyesopen
No nasty pasta for the Italian shark until she makes more chicken tortilla soup for the German, French and Irish shark that just happens to love Mexican food! (I'm not prejudice...I've never met a food I didn't like!)
Especially cheese dip!
I have six rows of teeth, three on the top and three on the bottom. And I get new sharp pointy ones every two weeks or so...
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JeffSjo
Hi eyesoopen,
I don't know you well yet, but I'm kind of prefering to think of you as a leapordess. It's not that a leapord can't be fierce enough, or as fierce as a shark. After all, five of six ends are sharp and dangerous.
It's just that a leapord is also kind to it's young and fiercely protective. A leapord can even be as cute and cuddly as a kitten too, although I'd personally never be quick to forget it's not a kitten and could in fact tear me up.
Hey, if you want to stick with shark, O.K. :)
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Captain Spiritural
I don't post here that much, but man oo man - your like the man bro. people just get over it and move on you are all sooo bitter
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WordWolf
...and, dmiller's point is CONFIRMED. He reports wrongdoing he's seen, and instead of getting offended
by the WRONGDOING, someone makes it all dmiller's fault for telling anyone of wrongdoing.
So,
wrongdoing is acceptable,
reporting or discussing wrongdoing is bad and repugnant.
Seems to me the values-system some use- which was instilled in twi- is in error.
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Eyesopen
Hehehe...the shark thing is a joke. I was labeled a shark by someone who is no longer welcome at GS. He described me as a "shark in the water looking for blood" hence the tag line and the many references to the shark. We have also done a thread dedicated to the "three sharks" on this board. We were called such in that thread because of our direct and honest natures.
Were I to liken myself to some other animal it would most definately be some sort of cat. I have a personal preference for the white tiger and have in fact been labeled that previously. In fact the "leader" of the west coast crips so dubbed me once when he was incarcerated. He called me that because I am white and my character is similar to a tiger. They are quiet, layed back creatures that prefer warmth and comfort. They are fiercely loyal to their young and their families. They are perfectly willing to let you hang out in their area unless you appear to be a danger to anything that they consider theirs, like their family or family unit or their food. Then they become all sharp objects, claws and teeth.
But I like your analogy as well, leopards are warm and fuzzy too.
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Tom Strange
oooooooo.... if he only knew!
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ChasUFarley
Mr. Miller - you know you're one of my fav posters here and you make some good points for the start of this thread.
The short answer - those who have blinders choose to wear them and don't expect your posts or anyone else's will take those blinders off. Those people are comfortable in their little ostrich worlds. Leave 'em be. They're happy. They also need more edumacating (sic) on the semantics of "personal attack" vs. "point of view".
Personally speaking - I don't have major issues with VPW, sorry. I don't think I have blinders on but believe he was a man. I'm aware of his sins but still glad I took PFAL. I sift through what I was taught, cling to that which is good, and don't claim to have the market cornered on the truth.
Finally - I certainly believe you and others who have testified about VPW's fallacies, but honestly... I take it all in, usually with a grain of salt and weigh it against what I know. If it's really nutty (remember that thread about the secret society of WC a couple of years back? You'd have thought they were meeting to eat the raw livers of young virgins, according to one poster) then I discard it - but don't call it a "personal attack".
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JeffSjo
Hey captain spiritur,
You want to be spiritual, try restoring someone in a spirit of meekness. Meekness, gentleness, patience, not striving with anyone: These are spiritual virtues. I think those virtues are very plainly written about, but appear to be lacking in your comments to dmiller.
Wordwolf,
Hear,hear, well said.
ChasUFarley,
I feel pretty much the same.
Eyesopen,
I value people who have the guts to correct me when I'm wrong. I gladly count them as friends if they're a friend to me. Even if they aren't a friend to me I don't feel I have the right to treat them badly. Sometimes the hard issues require more than sweetness to deal with though, don't they!?
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J0nny Ling0
Hi!
I finally just read through this whole thread. Personal attacks are bad. Being kind is good. I am guilty of both. When an argument gets heated, I think that because we are not literally "face to face" for reals, it is more tempting to lash with the tongue (with typed words, in this case, i.e. flame), but the words are still hurtfull. I guess part of the thing that upsets people who still try to hold to the good that they were taught in The Way, is that there are people here who simply think "oh, you are still Way Brained, you are still duped, you are in denial". In other words, "your whole life is wrong and therefore a waste". Which of course couldn't be further from the truth. Conversely it is just as wrong to say to those who were personally hurt that, "You are just making this crap up, I never saw it". And so, when wrong accusations are made, it gets very personal and it hurts.
Anyway, carry on and have a Happy New Yew Year!
JL
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waysider
Hi, Jonny
"Harpy" New Year to you too!
Ummmmm.---- For those who don't know------Jonny plays harmonica(harp) :)
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J0nny Ling0
Why thank you Waysider! And a Harpy New Year to you too! Yeah, I am trying to figure out how to put a song I recorded on some "sharing file" so I can share it here. I did a rendition of "Georgia On My Mind" with a friend which I am proud of. Maybe folks here would like to hear it some time.
Anywho, being kind is always way better!
JL
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Ham
Hey friend.. glad to see you here..
a very good friend of mine says.. the only thing the kabballah authorizes us to practice are acts of kindness, and that's it.. no hookypookism or such..
merry Christmas
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potato
oh man, flashback!
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T-Bone
Santa Claus: Little boy, would you like Santa to bring you a pendant for Christmas?
Little Boy: Yes……No……Yes…..No
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Biblefan Dave
I guess I left TWI at the right time, in '87 when the vast majority left. No, I was never subjected to personal attacks. That still doesn't justify personal attacks. And you people launch personal attacks back at TWI, that still doesn't mean it is right and doesn't make it right. The Bible clearly talks about forgiving one another. The Bible clearly indicates that we are to comfort one another and speak truth with one another. If you were subjected to personal attacks, I am truly and sincerely sorry that happened to you. It still doesn't make it right. Society in general, whether we are dealing with fundamentalist Christianity or your average Joe Bow, doesn't hold personal attacks as being right. If we fire back personal attacks just because we suffered unkind things while in TWI, we are just as back or worse, because we know better.
David
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waysider
David
I agree with you that "2 wrongs don't make a right."
However, I don't think giving a factual account of something negative constitutes an attack.
From what we've seen unfold through personal testimonies, Wierwille was an opportunistic, narcissistic, self serving, self centered, skirt chasing, drunken con-man who had a well documented propensity for sexual predation and psychological bullying. And those are words of description, not attack.
If, however, those descriptors were false, then the same words would be an attack.
Yes, you are right that it is not beneficial to inordinately fixate on past traumas.
But at the same time, it's unhealthy to hide this stuff and pretend it never happened.
I personally felt a sense of guilt for a long time about leaving the "one true household of God".
I don't feel that anymore.
Why?
Because I have learned(via GSC) that TWI was nothing more than a run of the mill cult.
Why should I feel guilty that I let God down simply because I chose to leave a cult?
I didn't come to that realization because people chose to sugar coat the past. I came to that realization because there were people here who had the guts to face the truth and speak out about it.
One faces the future with one's past.-------Pearl S. Buck
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