not arguing with that OM. if it's true, I'll see them one of these days.
I was wondering more what's the point of proclaiming vpw and lcm christians while chiding people for being angry, like that makes those men more worthy of prayer than the guy next door who fixed my gate just to be nice. none of us knows if they were christian or not. vpw and lcm aren't my brothers just because we were in the same cult and they made the rules.
anger is one of the steps you have to go through when you deal with loss. being told not to be angry at someone who hurt you because they're christian is like telling someone don't be angry at uncle for touching you because he's family and we don't tell on family. so biblefan dave believes we all have a responsibility to sweep it under the carpet and not be angry because anger makes you do bad things... well, what bad things?
I'm just curious. I had a lot of years of people telling me what I should do for my own good, so if someone thinks I should forgive someone and tells me dude's my brother so get over it, I want to know why. there must be some logic in there somewhere beyond being in the same cult.
What you call anger 20 years after the fact is not anger. I feel anger when the mailman doesn't come at his/her usual time. Yet, I don't feel anger for days and days after the mailman screwed up my schedule. I feel anger when someone tailgates me or cuts me off in traffic but I don't mull it over and stew over it for months and years after the incident occured. No, what you call anger is not anger. It is bitterness and resentment and hatred. Anger passes. But hatred lingers. Don't call it anger, call it what is it, hatred.
I don't dismiss at all the hurt caused by TWI leadership. I had problems with the Limb Coordinator during my WOW Year in Iowa. He accused me of things that I did not do. My family coordinator passed along a "sin list" to him, and there was nothing I could do to show him, the Limb Coordinator, that the the family coordinator was making up a lot of crap about me. Yes, it happened. Was I angry and upset at the time? Gosh, yes! Do I hate the family coordinator and limb coordinator? No, of course not. It happened 30 years ago! I forgave them a long time ago. I pray for them.
I suppose, that when you were in TWI, that you never did anything unkind to anyone else, that you were Mr. Perfect. Being a member of the human race with our faults and frailties, I am sure that everyone did things to others that they regretted, later. I know that I did. Do other people that we did things to have the godly right to let that linger and build into bitterness and resentment and hatred. No, God commands us to forgive one another. Those that experience anger can forgive. People that hate cannot. There is a difference. During times in the past, I know that I built things that others did to me way out of proportion to the offence actually done. I would imagine all of these evil intentions and motives for why they did such horrific things to me. Then, I would examine my own heart and mind. Were those offences actually so bad? No, they weren't. I forgive and went on living my life. I have better things to occupy my mind than to focus on the wrongs done to me. I will never find peace and serenity and tranquility if I harbor animosity and resentment and bitterness and hatred. I will always be the victim if I allow my mind to fester over past wrongs. I cannot do that.
As for VPW and LCM, like it or not, they were and are Christians. Magnifying offences way out of proprotion does not make them not Christians. As I said, even non-Christian have the capacity to forgive and often do. Thus, we as Christians should certainly be able to forgive. I did not say forget. But, we can forgive. I cannot be so arrogant as to assume just because these men did things to me that that makes them not be Christians. So, like it or not they were and are our brothers in Christ. We should not focus on the men but judge their deeds only. They did not deeds to deny them a seat in the life hereafter, but they willed be judged according to their deeds done on earth. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
In the Bible, it says that we are to forgive people. That was taught in TWI. That is taught by the Baptists, Presbyterians, Assembly of God, Episcopalians, etc., etc., etc.. Just because something was taught in TWI doesn't make the opposite true. There were truths taught in TWI. Forgiveness was one of those things. For gosh sakes, many people that don't believe in God are able to forgive others. Do you think that having been in TWI gives you some special dispensation to hate people, and that it is supposed to be alright with God to do so?
Nice post Biblefan Dave! The problem is, many of these middle aged lost crusaders are BITTTTER PEEEEPLE!! They will FOREVER CHANGE the discussion in order to BITCH about how "they" were ESPECIALLY abused by the cult. (Brain Power batteries are NOT included, meaning it's usually the same complainers). <_<
If you wanted to make this a really interesting anti-Cult Site, you would have to discard some of the usual suspects, and put them BACK into TWI!
What you call anger 20 years after the fact is not anger. I feel anger when the mailman doesn't come at his/her usual time. Yet, I don't feel anger for days and days after the mailman screwed up my schedule. I feel anger when someone tailgates me or cuts me off in traffic but I don't mull it over and stew over it for months and years after the incident occured. No, what you call anger is not anger. It is bitterness and resentment and hatred. Anger passes. But hatred lingers. Don't call it anger, call it what is it, hatred.
I can tell the difference between anger and hatred, Dave. there is some hate, yes. do I like feeling it? no. not healthy, which is why I don't intend to let it linger. I just don't feel like sharing the details of all the work I've done, am doing, and have yet to do.
however, you assume that since I was in for 20 years, I've been angry for 20 years. actually, the anger is a pretty recent development and has surfaced as a result of finally getting past the conditioning that prevented me from feeling it at the time I should have. and when I walked away from twi, I didn't get to leave it all behind.
I don't get angry at the mail carrier being late, or by someone tailgating or cutting me off. that would be momentary irritation. irritation passes. anger needs to be dealt with. don't like it? too bad. I'm still angry at twi and the abuses they taught, things that damaged me and my children. it stares me fresh in the face every day. but it gets better with every week of work we put into overcoming it. I suppose it could look like bitterness to those who had an easy time of leaving and adjusting. if I could face those who hurt me, would I? no. why? I'm too afraid of them. my hope is that when I overcome the fear of what they did or could do, I will no longer hate them or be angry. at least I've gotten over caring whether people gripe about the "whiners" who are still dealing with the hurt. that's a first step.
I never said I was perfect, and I've stated before that if I could find some people I know now that I took a hand in hurting, I would like to apologize. however, I don't feel the need to excuse certain leadership, nor excuse the corruption of the "ministry", as it was designed to serve one man's ego. I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to assume vpw or lcm were christian and therefore brothers who deserve the prayers of the faithful. I recognize that it is absolutely possible for personality disordered individuals to give every outward sign of pious religiosity, yet be devoid of true belief.
You are the one to come to to see if it's ok to talk
about my past?
Get real.
Dan, just what in the heck are you talking about. Everyone has the right to express their opinion here in these forums, as long as they obey the rules that are set forth. But if you put your opinions out there for everyone to read, yes, people are going to make sure judgments. That's life. You say something, people hear, and they make certain judgments about what you said. Didn't you ever have a wife or girlfriend or close friend question something you said. Of course, you don't have to get my approval to post something in these forums. Where in the world did you get the crazy idea that I had to approve of it. Talk about not being real. But, if you say something ridiculous here, don't be surprised if people find it ridiculous.
It is fairly obvious to perceive whining and bitterness and resentment in people's words. Judging? Yes, of course, we go through life everyday judging things. I judge the green light to be a signal to go through the intersection. I judge the car in the next lane with the turn signal on to be trying to get into my lane. I judge my coworker being upset with the way his computer is running to be a signal to go troubleshoot his computer. You are judged by your coworkers and bosses. You are judged by the cop on the side of the road pointing the radar at you. You are judged by the phone company whether you pay your bill on time. Don't be so arrogant that no one should judge you. Again, get real, it's life, like it or not.
The topic is about personal attacks. It is wrong to engage in personal attacks. I never learned in TWI that personal attacks were right. I didn't learn in the Baptist Church that personal attacks are okay. Everyday, in the political races that are going on we hear about mudslinging and dirty politics. Personal attacks are wrong no matter who they are directed against.
Dave, I am baffled when anybody ISN`T deeply angered over the betrayal by our leaders.
To NOT be outraged by the crimes committed against us, our brothers and sisters, our children...is to me unfathomable.
These people used God and the scriptures to commit atrocities on innocent people.
I guess it is all in ones perception....where you see whining and bitterness...I see rightious anger at the people who raped, stole, and killed in God`s name....kind of like the anger Jesus portrayed when he tossed the tables and chased out the people in the temple who were using God`s temple for their personal gain at the expense of the people who were legitimately there.
Oh.... and I don`t think you were in the same ministry I was in if you didn`t learn to visciously attack a person, to destroy, a persons credibility, their dignity, their confidence, their very soul :(
I never learned in TWI that personal attacks were right.
I did. by example from lcm down. I heard people reminisce about vpw's temper tantrums. perhaps it WASN'T a written doctrine "thou shalt attack thy brother and break his heart and spirit" yet they did.
remember the teachings on doctinal error and practical error? some of twi's errors were doctrinal, but some were just plain and simple practical error... teaching some good bible then twisting it when it came to practice, especially in the categories of money, love and sex.
Oh.... and I don`t think you were in the same ministry I was in if you didn`t learn to visciously attack a person, to destroy, a persons credibility, their dignity, their confidence, their very soul
I did not learn that either Dave but I see some here are teaching it.
Oh.... and I don`t think you were in the same ministry I was in if you didn`t learn to visciously attack a person, to destroy, a persons credibility, their dignity, their confidence, their very soul :(
I didn't learn that. I saw it - but I didn't learn it.
Danny, you can always tell someone is an innie, or associated with one of the TWI hateful, self-righteous, legalistic offshoots.
Here are the mindless phrases that give them away. They say these about those who are not with TWI or their offshoots so they don't have to use their brain and think about what has been said:
1. They're BITTER.
2. They're ANGRY
3. They're "FULL OF HATE."
What BS.
They sound like the devil's accusers - hmmm, maybe they are.
Oh wait - maybe this is a word of prophecy they have received from Swatratra?
You know what, for me it would be as inapropriate to throw even one stone.
But the prospect of sin effecting much more than a few individuals in the case of a leader is frightening.
Let me slip back into my King James mode for a moment. Jeff, why dost thou blowest thine things wayest out of proportion. Okay, the KJV mode is over. Yes, biblically, a leader is held to a higher standard than your average Joe Blow Believer. That being said, there is nothing in the Bible that says that a leader will be denied life in the hereafter because of sins he committed. There is nothing in the Bible that says a leader who commits sins can't be forgiven. No, it is not frightening. As long as I endeavor to live as godly a life as possible, where does the frightening part come in. It happened a long time ago. VPW died what, 22 years ago. Yeah, he was a leader and made mistakes. So what? God can forgive people for their mistakes. God can help us whatever harm was done by a leader. Griping and whining and b****ing about it does nothing to resolve the problem, turning to God does. As of LCM, yeah he harmed a lot of people. But, it's over with. We aren't part of TWI now and neither is he. He was gone 7 years ago and that was many years after a lot of left, anyway. Whatever he did, stop griping and moaning and whining and B****ing about it and turn to God to help you through with it. No, it is not frightening at all. Believe it or not, God is bigger than VPW or LCM or Rosalie or Harve.
The real problem for most people had nothing to do with VPW or LCM. The real problem for most people is that their lives revolved around TWI and everything associated with TWI, good or bad. People woke up and started reading the Word. People got home from work and started preparing a teaching for that night's fellowship. People were preparing to go or already on the WOW field and actively witnessing to other people. In short, their whole hearts and minds and souls revolved around TWI. After leaving TWI, there was a terrible void. People who looked forward to doing things for the ministry were then left wondering how they would fill their time. That left their minds open to hindsight to get upset and outraged and that rage was then directed to VPW and LCM and others. It wasn't what they did that caused the hurt, it was the routines, the schedules, the time, and everything that was wrapped up in being part of TWI that was no longer there. Many of us were saying "What do I do now?". I wasn't what VPW and LCM and others did while we were in TWI, it's what we lost being out of TWI. People's lives were completely turned upside down by not being involved in something, not having something to focus their energy on, not having their trusted friends around, etc. People who felt this void then searched for someone to blame for what was taken away. Then their minds started searching for everything they could think of that was wrong or that they could perceive as being wrong. If something would have happened in the normal course of life by someone outside of TWI, our minds made it 100 times worse than someone in TWI did. Again, our minds blew the hurtful things done to us way out of proportion. Again, the void in our lives caused us to rationalize our anger, not the hurtful things done, because most of did not perceive them as hurtful when they actually happened. Most often than not, when we were in TWI and hurtful things happened, we were more confused than hurt and we couldn't turn to anyone else with our problems without being told to "renew our minds".
Again, we must view things in proportion to their actual size. Just because the tire goes flat doesn't mean that the car is a piece of junk. If our significant other says something we don't like, we don't have to search through the files of our mind to retrieve every moment in the past where our SO did something we didn't like. Life must go on.
Danny, you can always tell someone is an innie, or associated with one of the TWI hateful, self-righteous, legalistic offshoots.
Here are the mindless phrases that give them away. They say these about those who are not with TWI or their offshoots so they don't have to use their brain and think about what has been said:
1. They're BITTER.
2. They're ANGRY
3. They're "FULL OF HATE."
What BS.
They sound like the devil's accusers - hmmm, maybe they are.
Oh wait - maybe this is a word of prophecy they have received from Swatratra?
The Rodent/Potato Head and the Band of Incurables, are just examples of a depressing 'attitude' which will forever carry Jesus and his TWI Corner Stone Band of Abuse History... I think, they're all really married to the memory of the DOC and all the GOOD TWI times they left behind!!
And it always looks and sounds like the same NEVER ENDING depressing road kill story...every time it's posted in the name of another recovering 'alcohol' abuse story.
Life cannot go on...because these people DIED in twi! :wacko:
(By by American pie...)
Sorry Sunesis, imo, these ARE angry and bitter people (but not full of hate). So IF I am a 2/3 member of a cult off shoot, here is my 2 accomplice!! Where's tonight's cult party anyway??
I haven't been associated with TWI since March of 1987. I don't like the plagarism and adultery that occured. I don't like all of the "mark and avoid" stuff that went on. I am homophobic, I guess, to be perfectly honest about it, but I certainly think that there were way too many false accusations levied against people accusing of being homosexual when they weren't. I left TWI because I could no longer, in all good conscience, continue to support the leadership of TWI at that time or in any time since.
That being said, I have learned something outside of TWI and that was that if I don't have something good to say about someone, then don't say anything. There was something said in TWI that wasn't originated in TWI that if I point 1 figure in someone's direction, I point 3 back at myself. There is always that matter of if I want to find something wrong with something, I will find something wrong.
I cannot ascertain someone's motives. I can't say VPW deliberately did this or that. There were things he taught that completely contradicted the principles for understanding the Bible that he taught. Were his motives evil? Only if I decide in my mind that they were, but just because I perceive it to be doesn't make it so. Why would I spent my mental energy trying to find all the things wrong. I believe that way he taught "abundant sharing" was wrong, and that he added to the Word by proclaiming that we as Christians have to do more than OT tithing. I believe that it doesn't matter whether there were 2 or 4 crucified with Christ, my focus is on the 1 in the middle. I don't care what the original sin was, only that it was disobedience to God. I believe that it is not merely "believing" but that it is faith "IN GOD", the trust IN GOD, not the mere act of "believing". But, I try not to twist and read into things, because if I am convinced there is something wrong, then I will interpret his actions as being wrong, whether they were or not.
Again, this thread is about personal attacks. VPW was not evil, but plagarism and adultery are sins. Did LCM start out as a typical believer just like you and me? Did he endeavor to serve God to the best of his ability when he came into TWI and went into the WC? Was he endeavoring to lead people to God when he was LC or Oklahoma or WC director? There is nothing to indicate he was any less of a Christian than you or me. It seemed to me that a change happened when he became the Prez. There is a verse in the Bible that says that the pride comes before the fall. It is fairly obvious that LCM's pride got in the way and that is way he thought he could treat people the way he did. Does that make him not a Christian? No, it doesn't. Was I mad and angry and upset and outraged by his actions? Yes, I was. Yes, I still have the capacity to forgive. The Apostle Paul was once a very evil person who commanded the murder of Christians, yet he became a Christian and served Christ to the best of his ability. There is no one beyond God's ability to forgive. Yes, LCM hurt people. But, I am not so arrogant to assume that my hurt is so big and so bad that it is bigger than God. God can heal us from the hurt LCM caused if we only let him.
Personal attacks are evident of our own egotistical and prideful attitude that we are somehow bigger than God. God is bigger and VPW and LCM. God is bigger than our hurt. Again, let's condemn the sin, not the sinner.
There appears to be some misunderstanding concerning the motives or reasons a person remains angry throughout many years at one event or person of many events and people. The word "anger" has been inaccurately defined as an emotion that is short lived and not enduring. It was also defined as an emotion that was seperate from "revenge". I do not know where these definitions came from but they are quite incorrect. Note the below quoted definitions for "anger" and related verbs from Encarta:
CORE MEANING: a feeling of strong displeasure in response to an assumed injury
anger a strong feeling of grievance and displeasure;
His face turned white with anger.
She could feel the anger bubbling up inside her.
annoyance mild anger and impatience;
Her untidiness was a source of annoyance to him.
I couldn't find my credit card, much to the annoyance of the people in line behind me.
irritation a feeling of impatience or exasperation;
replied with ill-concealed irritation
a sign of his intense irritation with his distant superiors
resentment aggrieved feelings caused by a sense of having been badly treated;
The policy provoked bitter resentment throughout the police force.
Try to overcome your feelings of resentment at being denied this experience.
indignation anger because something seems unfair or unreasonable;
The woman protested in righteous indignation at the idea.
fury violent anger;
Their eyes were fixed on each other in cold fury.
Fury at the rejection welled up in him.
rage sudden and extreme anger;
jealous rage
Toby flew into a rage.
ire (literary) strong anger;
a change that raised the ire of union members
This decision drew the ire of rights activists.
wrath strong anger, often with a desire for revenge;
the wrath of God
I don't want to incur the wrath of my manager by changing the plan.
Please observe that the strongest anger mentioned is "wrath" which carries with it a strong desire for revenge.
This in no way should relate to a civilized conversation from opposing viewpoints in which the participants strongly disagree. Anger is not an emotion that should be expressed towards an individual for their opinion or belief or for expressing their opinion or belief. Anger may be expressed towards a person for the manner in which they express their opinion or belief or towards the belief itself. But if opposing parties are both civilized and mature in their conversation and demeanor then anger should never be expressed towards an individual.
So are we done playing word games now?
Dave, with all due respect the verse reads:
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
That being said, I do not completely disagree with what you say. My parents taught me that if I had nothing nice to say then say nothing at all. The Corps taught me how to find good things to say about anyone. (On a side note; they also taught me how to find fault with anyone. I chose to employ the former instruction.)
I believe there was a thead recently concerning the entire, "Get over it" idea. In short all people with "get over it" in their own good time and not one second before, and telling them that they should simply because it is 20 years later or because it was their brother or sister in Christ, IMHO only adds fuel to an already burning fire.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
10
16
18
14
Popular Days
Dec 20
45
Dec 5
26
Dec 6
24
Dec 7
21
Top Posters In This Topic
Lifted Up 10 posts
potato 16 posts
Bumpy 18 posts
JeffSjo 14 posts
Popular Days
Dec 20 2007
45 posts
Dec 5 2007
26 posts
Dec 6 2007
24 posts
Dec 7 2007
21 posts
potato
that other jesus who said adultery was ok for the MOG? I heard of him!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Biblefan Dave
What you call anger 20 years after the fact is not anger. I feel anger when the mailman doesn't come at his/her usual time. Yet, I don't feel anger for days and days after the mailman screwed up my schedule. I feel anger when someone tailgates me or cuts me off in traffic but I don't mull it over and stew over it for months and years after the incident occured. No, what you call anger is not anger. It is bitterness and resentment and hatred. Anger passes. But hatred lingers. Don't call it anger, call it what is it, hatred.
I don't dismiss at all the hurt caused by TWI leadership. I had problems with the Limb Coordinator during my WOW Year in Iowa. He accused me of things that I did not do. My family coordinator passed along a "sin list" to him, and there was nothing I could do to show him, the Limb Coordinator, that the the family coordinator was making up a lot of crap about me. Yes, it happened. Was I angry and upset at the time? Gosh, yes! Do I hate the family coordinator and limb coordinator? No, of course not. It happened 30 years ago! I forgave them a long time ago. I pray for them.
I suppose, that when you were in TWI, that you never did anything unkind to anyone else, that you were Mr. Perfect. Being a member of the human race with our faults and frailties, I am sure that everyone did things to others that they regretted, later. I know that I did. Do other people that we did things to have the godly right to let that linger and build into bitterness and resentment and hatred. No, God commands us to forgive one another. Those that experience anger can forgive. People that hate cannot. There is a difference. During times in the past, I know that I built things that others did to me way out of proportion to the offence actually done. I would imagine all of these evil intentions and motives for why they did such horrific things to me. Then, I would examine my own heart and mind. Were those offences actually so bad? No, they weren't. I forgive and went on living my life. I have better things to occupy my mind than to focus on the wrongs done to me. I will never find peace and serenity and tranquility if I harbor animosity and resentment and bitterness and hatred. I will always be the victim if I allow my mind to fester over past wrongs. I cannot do that.
As for VPW and LCM, like it or not, they were and are Christians. Magnifying offences way out of proprotion does not make them not Christians. As I said, even non-Christian have the capacity to forgive and often do. Thus, we as Christians should certainly be able to forgive. I did not say forget. But, we can forgive. I cannot be so arrogant as to assume just because these men did things to me that that makes them not be Christians. So, like it or not they were and are our brothers in Christ. We should not focus on the men but judge their deeds only. They did not deeds to deny them a seat in the life hereafter, but they willed be judged according to their deeds done on earth. Hate the sin, not the sinner.
In the Bible, it says that we are to forgive people. That was taught in TWI. That is taught by the Baptists, Presbyterians, Assembly of God, Episcopalians, etc., etc., etc.. Just because something was taught in TWI doesn't make the opposite true. There were truths taught in TWI. Forgiveness was one of those things. For gosh sakes, many people that don't believe in God are able to forgive others. Do you think that having been in TWI gives you some special dispensation to hate people, and that it is supposed to be alright with God to do so?
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JeffSjo
You know what, for me it would be as inapropriate to throw even one stone.
But the prospect of sin effecting much more than a few individuals in the case of a leader is frightening.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
Nice post Biblefan Dave! The problem is, many of these middle aged lost crusaders are BITTTTER PEEEEPLE!! They will FOREVER CHANGE the discussion in order to BITCH about how "they" were ESPECIALLY abused by the cult. (Brain Power batteries are NOT included, meaning it's usually the same complainers). <_<
If you wanted to make this a really interesting anti-Cult Site, you would have to discard some of the usual suspects, and put them BACK into TWI!
JUST FOR FUN!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
I can tell the difference between anger and hatred, Dave. there is some hate, yes. do I like feeling it? no. not healthy, which is why I don't intend to let it linger. I just don't feel like sharing the details of all the work I've done, am doing, and have yet to do.
however, you assume that since I was in for 20 years, I've been angry for 20 years. actually, the anger is a pretty recent development and has surfaced as a result of finally getting past the conditioning that prevented me from feeling it at the time I should have. and when I walked away from twi, I didn't get to leave it all behind.
I don't get angry at the mail carrier being late, or by someone tailgating or cutting me off. that would be momentary irritation. irritation passes. anger needs to be dealt with. don't like it? too bad. I'm still angry at twi and the abuses they taught, things that damaged me and my children. it stares me fresh in the face every day. but it gets better with every week of work we put into overcoming it. I suppose it could look like bitterness to those who had an easy time of leaving and adjusting. if I could face those who hurt me, would I? no. why? I'm too afraid of them. my hope is that when I overcome the fear of what they did or could do, I will no longer hate them or be angry. at least I've gotten over caring whether people gripe about the "whiners" who are still dealing with the hurt. that's a first step.
I never said I was perfect, and I've stated before that if I could find some people I know now that I took a hand in hurting, I would like to apologize. however, I don't feel the need to excuse certain leadership, nor excuse the corruption of the "ministry", as it was designed to serve one man's ego. I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to assume vpw or lcm were christian and therefore brothers who deserve the prayers of the faithful. I recognize that it is absolutely possible for personality disordered individuals to give every outward sign of pious religiosity, yet be devoid of true belief.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
David can I say Dave?
No i'm not angry bitter sinning or what ever.
Are you judging?
You are the one to come to to see if it's ok to talk
about my past?
Get real.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Biblefan Dave
Dan, just what in the heck are you talking about. Everyone has the right to express their opinion here in these forums, as long as they obey the rules that are set forth. But if you put your opinions out there for everyone to read, yes, people are going to make sure judgments. That's life. You say something, people hear, and they make certain judgments about what you said. Didn't you ever have a wife or girlfriend or close friend question something you said. Of course, you don't have to get my approval to post something in these forums. Where in the world did you get the crazy idea that I had to approve of it. Talk about not being real. But, if you say something ridiculous here, don't be surprised if people find it ridiculous.
It is fairly obvious to perceive whining and bitterness and resentment in people's words. Judging? Yes, of course, we go through life everyday judging things. I judge the green light to be a signal to go through the intersection. I judge the car in the next lane with the turn signal on to be trying to get into my lane. I judge my coworker being upset with the way his computer is running to be a signal to go troubleshoot his computer. You are judged by your coworkers and bosses. You are judged by the cop on the side of the road pointing the radar at you. You are judged by the phone company whether you pay your bill on time. Don't be so arrogant that no one should judge you. Again, get real, it's life, like it or not.
The topic is about personal attacks. It is wrong to engage in personal attacks. I never learned in TWI that personal attacks were right. I didn't learn in the Baptist Church that personal attacks are okay. Everyday, in the political races that are going on we hear about mudslinging and dirty politics. Personal attacks are wrong no matter who they are directed against.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Dave, I am baffled when anybody ISN`T deeply angered over the betrayal by our leaders.
To NOT be outraged by the crimes committed against us, our brothers and sisters, our children...is to me unfathomable.
These people used God and the scriptures to commit atrocities on innocent people.
I guess it is all in ones perception....where you see whining and bitterness...I see rightious anger at the people who raped, stole, and killed in God`s name....kind of like the anger Jesus portrayed when he tossed the tables and chased out the people in the temple who were using God`s temple for their personal gain at the expense of the people who were legitimately there.
Oh.... and I don`t think you were in the same ministry I was in if you didn`t learn to visciously attack a person, to destroy, a persons credibility, their dignity, their confidence, their very soul :(
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Dave I asked a Question not a attack.
Maybe if you showed you really cared and understood
you might see something different.
Like anyone needs another preaching about the way they view there past.
I can talk about the past without sin.
I was responing to your choice of sermon.
You Painted with a very big brush.
There is no evidence for me to think vp or loy was my brother,
Because they ran there mouth alot means what?
There actions ran against what I believe.
Why no exspose them for who they were?
It was there histroy there action.
If someone was still in there trap i pray they could be reliesed.
The blue book at one time was named the Magic of Believing.
The teaching remained the same the title changed.
Why I pray not call a spade a spade?
Why call a serpent my brother?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Don't get me wrong Dave.
I'm a big fan of the bible.
I think Jesus said it best
Who is your father and mother brother and sister
those that do the will of the father.
And I love preaching.
All kinds. Yours included.
But you just might get more of view
if you stuck out a little compasion with your club.
Yes the past is with us that is part of being here.
Did I here you say to someone
How can I help ease the pain?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
I did. by example from lcm down. I heard people reminisce about vpw's temper tantrums. perhaps it WASN'T a written doctrine "thou shalt attack thy brother and break his heart and spirit" yet they did.
remember the teachings on doctinal error and practical error? some of twi's errors were doctrinal, but some were just plain and simple practical error... teaching some good bible then twisting it when it came to practice, especially in the categories of money, love and sex.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
I did not learn that either Dave but I see some here are teaching it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Maybe I should start a Tread Two Sides of the Coin.
Mayberry and how it REALLY WAS.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I didn't learn that. I saw it - but I didn't learn it.
The games that got played...
Sad really...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Some smart person along the way said something like
If you don't learn from the past History will
surely repeat itself.
TWI had on thing going for it or not
They left out the reason for the season The
Prince of peace Jesus Christ
They replaced it with the WORD
Knowledege
Lust
Yea I was in a different twi
someone else had a bag over there head
and refuses to see it.
No I'm not bitter and don't cry about it.
I talk about what it was and how to be better.
Where else can we do that.
Just hide to get healed?
Don't say something that would be negative?
REally
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Danny, you can always tell someone is an innie, or associated with one of the TWI hateful, self-righteous, legalistic offshoots.
Here are the mindless phrases that give them away. They say these about those who are not with TWI or their offshoots so they don't have to use their brain and think about what has been said:
1. They're BITTER.
2. They're ANGRY
3. They're "FULL OF HATE."
What BS.
They sound like the devil's accusers - hmmm, maybe they are.
Oh wait - maybe this is a word of prophecy they have received from Swatratra?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Biblefan Dave
Let me slip back into my King James mode for a moment. Jeff, why dost thou blowest thine things wayest out of proportion. Okay, the KJV mode is over. Yes, biblically, a leader is held to a higher standard than your average Joe Blow Believer. That being said, there is nothing in the Bible that says that a leader will be denied life in the hereafter because of sins he committed. There is nothing in the Bible that says a leader who commits sins can't be forgiven. No, it is not frightening. As long as I endeavor to live as godly a life as possible, where does the frightening part come in. It happened a long time ago. VPW died what, 22 years ago. Yeah, he was a leader and made mistakes. So what? God can forgive people for their mistakes. God can help us whatever harm was done by a leader. Griping and whining and b****ing about it does nothing to resolve the problem, turning to God does. As of LCM, yeah he harmed a lot of people. But, it's over with. We aren't part of TWI now and neither is he. He was gone 7 years ago and that was many years after a lot of left, anyway. Whatever he did, stop griping and moaning and whining and B****ing about it and turn to God to help you through with it. No, it is not frightening at all. Believe it or not, God is bigger than VPW or LCM or Rosalie or Harve.
The real problem for most people had nothing to do with VPW or LCM. The real problem for most people is that their lives revolved around TWI and everything associated with TWI, good or bad. People woke up and started reading the Word. People got home from work and started preparing a teaching for that night's fellowship. People were preparing to go or already on the WOW field and actively witnessing to other people. In short, their whole hearts and minds and souls revolved around TWI. After leaving TWI, there was a terrible void. People who looked forward to doing things for the ministry were then left wondering how they would fill their time. That left their minds open to hindsight to get upset and outraged and that rage was then directed to VPW and LCM and others. It wasn't what they did that caused the hurt, it was the routines, the schedules, the time, and everything that was wrapped up in being part of TWI that was no longer there. Many of us were saying "What do I do now?". I wasn't what VPW and LCM and others did while we were in TWI, it's what we lost being out of TWI. People's lives were completely turned upside down by not being involved in something, not having something to focus their energy on, not having their trusted friends around, etc. People who felt this void then searched for someone to blame for what was taken away. Then their minds started searching for everything they could think of that was wrong or that they could perceive as being wrong. If something would have happened in the normal course of life by someone outside of TWI, our minds made it 100 times worse than someone in TWI did. Again, our minds blew the hurtful things done to us way out of proportion. Again, the void in our lives caused us to rationalize our anger, not the hurtful things done, because most of did not perceive them as hurtful when they actually happened. Most often than not, when we were in TWI and hurtful things happened, we were more confused than hurt and we couldn't turn to anyone else with our problems without being told to "renew our minds".
Again, we must view things in proportion to their actual size. Just because the tire goes flat doesn't mean that the car is a piece of junk. If our significant other says something we don't like, we don't have to search through the files of our mind to retrieve every moment in the past where our SO did something we didn't like. Life must go on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Dave don't get me wrong.
I want you here and want you to post.
But I also want you to maybe see it from a different angle.
Why do believe what you do?
What is the differences in our belief?
Same bible maybe.
Is It ok to speak up?
Why not?
Why do you think vp was my brother?
His actions speak different.
When your dead and gone you legacy comes to light.
Hope mine meets God's favor.
Don't know why you wouldn't want someone to speak up and save a sister
brother?
Why would you not want the wiles of the devil put forth?
Every thing in the dark.
New visitors come to these shores each day may the light
shin forth for all to see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
May I should change the name of new tread.
Those of us that talk about our past and learn something
Those that come here and hate us for it
or
Those that come here and bitch and complain because we are free
Step right up come and wah wah wah about our NON wha wha wha
I have to make post 666 before the end of the year
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
The Rodent/Potato Head and the Band of Incurables, are just examples of a depressing 'attitude' which will forever carry Jesus and his TWI Corner Stone Band of Abuse History... I think, they're all really married to the memory of the DOC and all the GOOD TWI times they left behind!!
And it always looks and sounds like the same NEVER ENDING depressing road kill story...every time it's posted in the name of another recovering 'alcohol' abuse story.
Life cannot go on...because these people DIED in twi! :wacko:
(By by American pie...)
Sorry Sunesis, imo, these ARE angry and bitter people (but not full of hate). So IF I am a 2/3 member of a cult off shoot, here is my 2 accomplice!! Where's tonight's cult party anyway??
http://www.skytower.me.uk/wp-content/sexy_santa.jpg
http://www.emediawire.com/prfiles/2004/11/12/178355/8696.jpg
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
Dave that was post 155 for you
You are member 156
What ever you do don't post again
A trasformation will take place you will start loving us
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Biblefan Dave
I haven't been associated with TWI since March of 1987. I don't like the plagarism and adultery that occured. I don't like all of the "mark and avoid" stuff that went on. I am homophobic, I guess, to be perfectly honest about it, but I certainly think that there were way too many false accusations levied against people accusing of being homosexual when they weren't. I left TWI because I could no longer, in all good conscience, continue to support the leadership of TWI at that time or in any time since.
That being said, I have learned something outside of TWI and that was that if I don't have something good to say about someone, then don't say anything. There was something said in TWI that wasn't originated in TWI that if I point 1 figure in someone's direction, I point 3 back at myself. There is always that matter of if I want to find something wrong with something, I will find something wrong.
I cannot ascertain someone's motives. I can't say VPW deliberately did this or that. There were things he taught that completely contradicted the principles for understanding the Bible that he taught. Were his motives evil? Only if I decide in my mind that they were, but just because I perceive it to be doesn't make it so. Why would I spent my mental energy trying to find all the things wrong. I believe that way he taught "abundant sharing" was wrong, and that he added to the Word by proclaiming that we as Christians have to do more than OT tithing. I believe that it doesn't matter whether there were 2 or 4 crucified with Christ, my focus is on the 1 in the middle. I don't care what the original sin was, only that it was disobedience to God. I believe that it is not merely "believing" but that it is faith "IN GOD", the trust IN GOD, not the mere act of "believing". But, I try not to twist and read into things, because if I am convinced there is something wrong, then I will interpret his actions as being wrong, whether they were or not.
Again, this thread is about personal attacks. VPW was not evil, but plagarism and adultery are sins. Did LCM start out as a typical believer just like you and me? Did he endeavor to serve God to the best of his ability when he came into TWI and went into the WC? Was he endeavoring to lead people to God when he was LC or Oklahoma or WC director? There is nothing to indicate he was any less of a Christian than you or me. It seemed to me that a change happened when he became the Prez. There is a verse in the Bible that says that the pride comes before the fall. It is fairly obvious that LCM's pride got in the way and that is way he thought he could treat people the way he did. Does that make him not a Christian? No, it doesn't. Was I mad and angry and upset and outraged by his actions? Yes, I was. Yes, I still have the capacity to forgive. The Apostle Paul was once a very evil person who commanded the murder of Christians, yet he became a Christian and served Christ to the best of his ability. There is no one beyond God's ability to forgive. Yes, LCM hurt people. But, I am not so arrogant to assume that my hurt is so big and so bad that it is bigger than God. God can heal us from the hurt LCM caused if we only let him.
Personal attacks are evident of our own egotistical and prideful attitude that we are somehow bigger than God. God is bigger and VPW and LCM. God is bigger than our hurt. Again, let's condemn the sin, not the sinner.
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bumpy
...aaah, David, this little statement might not exactly stand up too well in the GS court of public opinion!!
:biglaugh:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
There appears to be some misunderstanding concerning the motives or reasons a person remains angry throughout many years at one event or person of many events and people. The word "anger" has been inaccurately defined as an emotion that is short lived and not enduring. It was also defined as an emotion that was seperate from "revenge". I do not know where these definitions came from but they are quite incorrect. Note the below quoted definitions for "anger" and related verbs from Encarta:
anger, annoyance, irritation, resentment, indignation, fury, rage, ire, wrath
CORE MEANING: a feeling of strong displeasure in response to an assumed injury
anger a strong feeling of grievance and displeasure;
His face turned white with anger.
She could feel the anger bubbling up inside her.
annoyance mild anger and impatience;
Her untidiness was a source of annoyance to him.
I couldn't find my credit card, much to the annoyance of the people in line behind me.
irritation a feeling of impatience or exasperation;
replied with ill-concealed irritation
a sign of his intense irritation with his distant superiors
resentment aggrieved feelings caused by a sense of having been badly treated;
The policy provoked bitter resentment throughout the police force.
Try to overcome your feelings of resentment at being denied this experience.
indignation anger because something seems unfair or unreasonable;
The woman protested in righteous indignation at the idea.
fury violent anger;
Their eyes were fixed on each other in cold fury.
Fury at the rejection welled up in him.
rage sudden and extreme anger;
jealous rage
Toby flew into a rage.
ire (literary) strong anger;
a change that raised the ire of union members
This decision drew the ire of rights activists.
wrath strong anger, often with a desire for revenge;
the wrath of God
I don't want to incur the wrath of my manager by changing the plan.
Please observe that the strongest anger mentioned is "wrath" which carries with it a strong desire for revenge.
This in no way should relate to a civilized conversation from opposing viewpoints in which the participants strongly disagree. Anger is not an emotion that should be expressed towards an individual for their opinion or belief or for expressing their opinion or belief. Anger may be expressed towards a person for the manner in which they express their opinion or belief or towards the belief itself. But if opposing parties are both civilized and mature in their conversation and demeanor then anger should never be expressed towards an individual.
So are we done playing word games now?
Dave, with all due respect the verse reads:
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
That being said, I do not completely disagree with what you say. My parents taught me that if I had nothing nice to say then say nothing at all. The Corps taught me how to find good things to say about anyone. (On a side note; they also taught me how to find fault with anyone. I chose to employ the former instruction.)
I believe there was a thead recently concerning the entire, "Get over it" idea. In short all people with "get over it" in their own good time and not one second before, and telling them that they should simply because it is 20 years later or because it was their brother or sister in Christ, IMHO only adds fuel to an already burning fire.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.