Allow me to introduce myself

[WordWolf]

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness"

and WANT to believe posters who say such are liars,

but we have at least one poster who DID get such an assault and battery as a child,

and MANY people have had problems with the official policies of everyone having a wooden beating implement on them,

and how ANY adult on grounds were free to use it at their discretion, with no official policy as to what was too lenient

and what was too strong.

(snip)

Unless one was PHYSICALLY PRESENT at the place and time of an incident, it's not easy to FAIRLY say

"that's not what happened at all", and harder to FAIRLY say "you are lying."

Then again when one experience does not fit with the norm one must look at all the reasons why that might be.

Just because someone claims they had a experience does not make it so either.

what is "the norm"??

This would not be the norm:

Children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness

So, are you saying-or suggesting- that posters who reported that either were lying or deserved to get beaten down?

I wouldn't ask, but YOU'RE the one who singled out that phrase and replied by pointing out some people lie and

sometimes we don't know the reason someone does something like beat someone....

[WhiteDove]

So, are you saying-or suggesting- that posters who reported that either were lying or deserved to get beaten down?

I wouldn't ask, but YOU'RE the one who singled out that phrase and replied by pointing out some people lie and

sometimes we don't know the reason someone does something like beat someone....

Well lets correct the record first

So, are you saying-or suggesting- that posters who reported that either were lying or deserved to get beaten down?

I never spoke of beating anyone down nor did I say they were a liar. I did say that it was not the norm and as such suspect, I find it suspect as well when one person memory of events out of all the thousands who participated in the program differs drastically with the norm of the weightier percent. There are many reasons why that might happen but I'm sure you are smart enough to figure them out.

I wouldn't ask, but YOU'RE the one who singled out that phrase and replied by pointing out some people lie and

sometimes we don't know the reason someone does something like beat someone.

Again what I said was" looking at the mental health background of some would tell you why they might think these things. Claims to experiences do not make them true by themselves, people claim things for a variety of reasons." While lying could be one of the reasons there are many others as well I never singled out one if you read what I wrote.

[WhiteDove]

Shucks. It seems to be common knowledge (at least here on this website), from first hand witnesses' accounts that good old docvic himself told lcm to *loosen up* in the sexual area, or he would NEVER be an effective minister to God's people.

Just WHAT THE HELL can that mean, other than the obvious???? And -- if that took place in the higher echelons of the (cough!!) *ministry*, why would ANYONE suppose that it didn't happen in the lower levels amongst the rank and file??

As they say --- $h!t rolls downhill.

I'll point out the obvious, which is that common knowledge is dependent on accurate testimony for it to be truthful. There have been lots of common knowledge stories over the years perpetuated both here and in the internet world that's why we have such sites as Snopes. Many times the first hand witnesses don't pan out when put to the test "they heard it from a reliable source" who probably heard it from another reliable source. We have all heard some of these common knowledge stories over the years like the Doobie Brothers were at the rock 73, or Paul Simon, or so and so was a PFAL grad that's what this song was talking about and so on.... Just for fun I looked at some of those threads where it was sealed in stone what was said. It looks to me like the posters could not remember who or exactly how or when it was said, nor the context it was said in . One could assume years later that they know, but the truth is one can not. One could go through for instance Nixon's records and say well see there he said "phone ", now I know that was about Watergate it's obvious.... Really?

Context is everything David If we are discussing cars and I say maybe it's time for an upgrade to you . To then take that and import it into another context such as marriage for instance and say see there he told me to upgrade my wife. That would be untruthful now wouldn't it? It is common knowledge that some posted that they thought the context of the conversation was about legalism, and in that context "loosen up " takes on a different meaning.

Here's a thought if this stuff was taught to the THE SECRET AGENDA SOCIETY. as some think then it is doubtful that there would have been to many first hand witnesses hanging around , not likely if it was a secret that VP would speak about it in public for sure, that kinda ruins the secret.... So when we get the context of the conversation at the time ,not what we suppose today, as well as whether these first hand witnesses actually were present or were told by another by another then we can see if it really is common knowledge. Until then as they say the juries still out......

[jen-o]

jen-o wrote:

um, whitedove, i know what the word "norm" means... i was asking you what you considered to be "the norm" for twi...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

whitedove responded:

The definition would apply to the word in the way as well, thats how worrds work they use the same definition in each case they don't change their meaning to fit a group. By definition, it can change on a case by case basis depending on the topic as in the example I posted.

This would not be the norm.

Children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness

whitedove, i know how "words work", i know what the definition of "norm" is, i know that you are applying this definition to the group of twi, etc.

i don't need a vocab or grammar lesson!!...

why can't you just answer the question:

what do YOU consider to be "the norm" for twi??

i.e., what do YOU consider to be "typical" for twi??

you wrote:

Then again when one experience does not fit with the norm one must look at all the reasons why that might be.

and i am wondering what "typical/norm" you are referring to...

can you give me specifics on what YOU consider to be "typical/the norm" for twi??

i don't want to know what is NOT the norm...

tell me, what the norm IS...

[you cannot say that something is not the norm, if you don't know what the norm is]

peace,

jen-o

Edited May 5, 2008 by jen-o

[WhiteDove]

whitedove, i know how "words work", i know what the definition of "norm" is, i know that you are applying this definition to the group of twi, etc.

i don't need a vocab or grammar lesson!!...

why can't you just answer the question:

what do YOU consider to be "the norm" for twi??

i.e., what do YOU consider to be "typical" for twi??

and i am wondering what "typical/norm" you are referring to...

can you give me specifics on what YOU consider to be "typical/the norm" for twi??

i don't want to know what is NOT the norm...

tell me, what the norm IS...

[you cannot say that something is not the norm, if you don't know what the norm is]

peace,

jen-o

I did

By definition, it can change on a case by case basis depending on the topic as in the example I posted. The norm for the topic I gave example for is that children were corrected not beaten almost to unconsciousness.

Edited May 5, 2008 by WhiteDove

[jen-o]

I did

By definition, it can change on a case by case basis depending on the topic as in the example I posted. The norm for the topic I gave example for is that children were corrected not beaten almost to unconsciousness.

whitedove,

you DID what?... you certainly DID NOT tell me what the "norm" for this topic was previous to your last post...

this is the FIRST time that you have mentioned that the "norm" was that "children were corrected"...

and that is a very VAGUE statement which can mean MANY different things to many different people...

ex. some people "correct" their kids with a switch or a belt, and call it a "whoopin"...

some people "correct" their kids with a wooden spoon (if ya know what i mean)

some folks "correct" their kids with a time-out, or loss of privileges...

you really are not all that specific about twi's "norm", not even for this one topic...

maybe that's because there was no real "norm"...

but if you think there was, i would ask you to be more specific...

btw, what do you mean that "by definition, it (the norm) can change on a case by case basis"??

the word "norm" by definition does not change at all... there is nothing within the definition of this word to indicate "change"...

peace,

jen-o

[dmiller]

.

Edited May 6, 2008 by dmiller

[WhiteDove]

whitedove,

you DID what?... you certainly DID NOT tell me what the "norm" for this topic was previous to your last post...

this is the FIRST time that you have mentioned that the "norm" was that "children were corrected"...

and that is a very VAGUE statement which can mean MANY different things to many different people...

ex. some people "correct" their kids with a switch or a belt, and call it a "whoopin"...

some people "correct" their kids with a wooden spoon (if ya know what i mean)

some folks "correct" their kids with a time-out, or loss of privileges...

you really are not all that specific about twi's "norm", not even for this one topic...

maybe that's because there was no real "norm"...

but if you think there was, i would ask you to be more specific...

btw, what do you mean that "by definition, it (the norm) can change on a case by case basis"??

the word "norm" by definition does not change at all... there is nothing within the definition of this word to indicate "change"...

peace,

jen-o

Sure there is

Norm - general level or average: Two cars per family is the norm in most suburban communities.

In this case suburban communities two is the norm that norm may change in other communities. Factors will change the norm the norm for Rome City is different from say Emporia.

I'm not going to list the norm for every conceivable topic under the sun for you. The norm did not include abuse, it's pretty simple

[jen-o]

wow... i'm just shaking my head here at your inability to understand the english language (and my printed words)

in general, this is the kind of thing that happens when people allow others to do their thinking for them...

i'd try to sort it out for you, but i feel like i'm beating a dead horse...

ciao,

jen-o

[WhiteDove]

wow... i'm just shaking my head here at your inability to understand the english language (and my printed words)

in general, this is the kind of thing that happens when people allow others to do their thinking for them...

i'd try to sort it out for you, but i feel like i'm beating a dead horse...

ciao,

jen-o

Then again too much trance inducing Jesus worship apparently clouds the ability to read and focus on printed matter, perhaps if I put a waving hand or two on it you'll get it. I should have known it has to have hand waving to trigger the mind to start working. It's Pavlov's Dog at it's finest hour hand waving and drooling all at the same time.

Edited May 7, 2008 by WhiteDove

[jen-o]

trance-inducing Jesus worship??

hand-waving??

what the heck are you taking about???

i think you've lost it...

[WordWolf]

About anything that will divert the thread, of course!

The post that, apparently, was so offensive that it needed to be diverged from,

was this one:

Just a friendly reminder.....

As many posters have said over the years,

EVERY PERSON'S TWI EXPERIENCE WAS UNIQUE.

I'd also like to point out that every person's twi experience was THEIR OWN.

What do I mean by that?

Each person had a different experience from others- whether that be from decade to decade,

state to state, family to family, or any other way. People in the same state around the same time could have

RADICALLY different experiences. That means that the accounts of some people-whether the accounts are

"Nothing bad ever happened to me, everyone was fantastic"

or

"I was forced through a torturous twi experience until I got older and my family was kicked out"

or anything else-

can be quite shocking to posters.

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness"

and WANT to believe posters who say such are liars,

but we have at least one poster who DID get such an assault and battery as a child,

and MANY people have had problems with the official policies of everyone having a wooden beating implement on them,

and how ANY adult on grounds were free to use it at their discretion, with no official policy as to what was too lenient

and what was too strong.

Some people may say "My experience was all close to paradise. Nobody was a problem, everyone was great,"

and others may find that ridiculous, too,

but we have posters who have made such claims also.

I, for one, am not ready to call them liars, EITHER.

Unless one was PHYSICALLY PRESENT at the place and time of an incident, it's not easy to FAIRLY say

"that's not what happened at all", and harder to FAIRLY say "you are lying."

======

There's been many accounts how a person-if connected well enough- could get away with anything, and twi

would either IGNORE it or ASSIST in burying it.

Ever read the account of the child molester twi hid by relocating him,

then had people commit the felony of Breaking and Entering to make the felony of theft possible,

to steal the evidence against him when a twi'er reported the molester to the police for molesting her kids?

That's FAR beyond "what twi tolerated", right?

But it happened-more than one posted reported on this, eyewitnesses.

Is it possible for someone with homosexual experience and tendencies to flourish in twi WHILE lcm was conducting

his witch-hunt for all "homos" and "homo sympathizers"? Impossible you say?

Well, it appears to have happened at the highest level of twi....

=======

And yes, some higher-ups were so privileged that their kids had NO discipline, NO boundaries, could get away

with ANYTHING, and got over with all sorts of things. Some of them called the ROA "score week" for reasons you

can figure out- we even have that one from lcm's mouth- and there was plenty of underage drinking or whatever

as well.

Then again, as one former teen reported, for those who were NOT part of the privileged few, underage drinking

was one coping mechanism for dealing with twi.

Oh, and lcm ADMITTED-IN COURT- to coercion in getting at least one woman to sleep with him.

That's what he ADMITTED to, not everything he necessarily ever DID.

Now, whether or not you call it "rape" if there's no force of physical violence or not is your own

business. However, he was TAUGHT that he had to LEARN to sleep with other women.

He was TAUGHT that by vpw himself. According to eyewitnesses here, vpw wasn't above drugging women

into unconsciousness then having sex with them while unconscious.

Now, THAT counts as 'rape', right?

But when vpw did it, it was carefully orchestrated, and there were people in twi who voluntarily

covered it up (like Mr and Mrs Moneyhands), and people who monitored the victims,

so that if they were going to tell someone, they were personally destroyed and kicked out of twi

to silence them.

That's happened more than once.

vpw never went to prison. By someone's definition, that means he never committed a crime.

If I can offer advice, I would recommend they withhold judgement, and, especially,

speaking on what vpw and twi "would never do" until they knew a lot more about what they

DEFINITELY DID.

[jen-o]

which is kinda why i asked whitedove: "what is the norm?"... i thought if he gave it some thought that he would realize that there really was NO "norm", and that people had a wide variety of experiences in twi... but instead, he avoided my question with vocab and grammar lessons... and then gave me some VAGUE answer about"correction".....

[WhiteDove]

Yeah darn those pesky words and their meanings how dare they get in the way of an agenda.

[WordWolf]

Darn those pesky discussions on topic. How dare they get in the way of an agenda, like derails

with non-sequiturs like suburbia and charismatic practices?

[WhiteDove]

Darn those pesky discussions on topic. How dare they get in the way of an agenda, like derails

with non-sequiturs like suburbia and charismatic practices?

So you are saying you were off topic when you posted this because that is what I responded to, looks like a topic to me.

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness

[jen-o]

who's got the agenda, whitedove??

i asked you one simple question, and you couldn't (or wouldn't) answer it...

[WordWolf]

Actually,

most reasonable people would have agreed I was entirely on topic when I posted this:

Just a friendly reminder.....

As many posters have said over the years,

EVERY PERSON'S TWI EXPERIENCE WAS UNIQUE.

I'd also like to point out that every person's twi experience was THEIR OWN.

What do I mean by that?

Each person had a different experience from others- whether that be from decade to decade,

state to state, family to family, or any other way. People in the same state around the same time could have

RADICALLY different experiences. That means that the accounts of some people-whether the accounts are

"Nothing bad ever happened to me, everyone was fantastic"

or

"I was forced through a torturous twi experience until I got older and my family was kicked out"

or anything else-

can be quite shocking to posters.

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness"

and WANT to believe posters who say such are liars,

but we have at least one poster who DID get such an assault and battery as a child,

and MANY people have had problems with the official policies of everyone having a wooden beating implement on them,

and how ANY adult on grounds were free to use it at their discretion, with no official policy as to what was too lenient

and what was too strong.

Some people may say "My experience was all close to paradise. Nobody was a problem, everyone was great,"

and others may find that ridiculous, too,

but we have posters who have made such claims also.

I, for one, am not ready to call them liars, EITHER.

Unless one was PHYSICALLY PRESENT at the place and time of an incident, it's not easy to FAIRLY say

"that's not what happened at all", and harder to FAIRLY say "you are lying."

======

There's been many accounts how a person-if connected well enough- could get away with anything, and twi

would either IGNORE it or ASSIST in burying it.

Ever read the account of the child molester twi hid by relocating him,

then had people commit the felony of Breaking and Entering to make the felony of theft possible,

to steal the evidence against him when a twi'er reported the molester to the police for molesting her kids?

That's FAR beyond "what twi tolerated", right?

But it happened-more than one posted reported on this, eyewitnesses.

Is it possible for someone with homosexual experience and tendencies to flourish in twi WHILE lcm was conducting

his witch-hunt for all "homos" and "homo sympathizers"? Impossible you say?

Well, it appears to have happened at the highest level of twi....

=======

And yes, some higher-ups were so privileged that their kids had NO discipline, NO boundaries, could get away

with ANYTHING, and got over with all sorts of things. Some of them called the ROA "score week" for reasons you

can figure out- we even have that one from lcm's mouth- and there was plenty of underage drinking or whatever

as well.

Then again, as one former teen reported, for those who were NOT part of the privileged few, underage drinking

was one coping mechanism for dealing with twi.

Oh, and lcm ADMITTED-IN COURT- to coercion in getting at least one woman to sleep with him.

That's what he ADMITTED to, not everything he necessarily ever DID.

Now, whether or not you call it "rape" if there's no force of physical violence or not is your own

business. However, he was TAUGHT that he had to LEARN to sleep with other women.

He was TAUGHT that by vpw himself. According to eyewitnesses here, vpw wasn't above drugging women

into unconsciousness then having sex with them while unconscious.

Now, THAT counts as 'rape', right?

But when vpw did it, it was carefully orchestrated, and there were people in twi who voluntarily

covered it up (like Mr and Mrs Moneyhands), and people who monitored the victims,

so that if they were going to tell someone, they were personally destroyed and kicked out of twi

to silence them.

That's happened more than once.

vpw never went to prison. By someone's definition, that means he never committed a crime.

If I can offer advice, I would recommend they withhold judgement, and, especially,

speaking on what vpw and twi "would never do" until they knew a lot more about what they

DEFINITELY DID.

I really don't get WD's fixation with one sentence.

I SAID everyone's experience was different.

I SAID bad experiences didn't erase the good ones.

When I gave ONE example of a bad experience (kid getting a beatdown with the wooden spoon),

WD suddenly took exception. We're 2 pages from where I said it, and WD insisted on

pointing out that not everyone was clobbered with the wooden spoon to the point of injury.

No duh. I said that.

Instead of just saying the same, however, we got a torturously circuitous route of WD

never getting to his point, and invoking the word "norm" and its definition while barely

ever touching on why he brought it up.

The poster who started this thread had some bad experiences- which don't erase anyone's

good experiences. However, the posting of bad experiences despite that seems to

inspire sweeping changes of subject off of the bad experiences by some people-

who then blame others for the change of subject.

If I thought it was unintentional, I'd be more compassionate about it.

However, it seems clear to me it's CALCULATED instead.

[brideofjc]

Then again too much trance inducing Jesus worship apparently clouds the ability to read and focus on printed matter, perhaps if I put a waving hand or two on it you'll get it. I should have known it has to have hand waving to trigger the mind to start working. It's Pavlov's Dog at it's finest hour hand waving and drooling all at the same time.

Seems to me that there needs to be more "trance-inducing JESUS worship and corrective treatment to reduce the occurences of "rigor mortis of the elbows" and then perhaps we would begin to realize that there perhaps is only a smattering of people that might be embellishing their stories in order to gain attention from others. Most people do not need to embellish their stories. As Word Wolf states, everyone's experiences were different and to be true there probably wasn't and isn't any so-called NORM in TWI because there were different personalities in leadership and different agendas as well. If a leader was into power plays, the people that were under his leadership will have certain accounts to relate. If the leader was a deviant, those that were under that leader will have different accounts. As well, people in the same fellowship will have differences in their accounts simply because one person may have been singled out to receive abuse and the others didn't receive any. This happens in biological families as well, where one child is singled out by an abusive parent and is horrendously abused while the others are treated as royalty. Go figure!

While I didn't receive near to what some of the posters have endured....yet, I was taught to use a wooden corrective as well. When I was on my WOW year in 82-83, first of all a family WOW was sent to a single WOW family. You want talk about feeling like a fifth wheel? My daughter couldn't express it, she was only five at the time, but I know I was also made to feel that way especially when the others had to take turns BABYSITTING in order to allow me to go out WITNESSING (in bars, no less, yeah right). Yeah we pulled a lot of people out of the fire from those places. :blink: Plus, my WOW sisters thought it was their right to discipline my child even when I was there. I finally had to say to them that they needed to let me decide what needed discipline and what didn't. Although, I have repented before the LORD for having used such a corrective instrument, I can only say that I was too young and too inexperienced and couldn't as of yet stand up for myself in all matters. Time has corrected that, thank GOD.

As far as TWI teachings....especially on families and marriage.....blech! I never could put a finger on it at the time, all I knew was that when DMoneyhands taught on marriage, my spirit just roiled and I felt it as well in my physical being too. Whenever they taught on Ephesians 5, it made me spiritually sick and it wasn't until years and years later when I began to learn Greek in Bible college that the LORD brought to me the truth concerning SUBMISSION and I sat there at my desk and it literally felt as if shackles were falling off my ankles and the LORD was setting me free when my Greek professor taught Eph 5:21-22. It was as if Angels were shouting Hallelujah to me and the roof was being lifted off the building, albeit, no one else knew it.

Blessings to all

[Dot Matrix]

Lucy, sweet Lucy:

If only I had a time machine to go back to when you were a kid – get you out of the closet and “kidnap” you to a land where things were normal! (you know what I mean, some religious stiff with a stick in their hinny will capitalize on the fact I used the word normal or kidnapping or both of them in the same sentence -- relgious people -- gotta laugh )

My sweet Lucy, there were pedophiles that apparently Shift did not know of, and the biggest one I know of was VP himself. He spoke openly about the abuses he had within his own family and tried to push it off as acceptable. Exxie and I were in a meeting where he taught us all about it while we were in the Way corps. But when we have tried to speak of it, hoping it would help people such as yourself, we have been shot down as it may hurt some of his relatives. I feel his relatives need to be validated, much as you need to be to be delivered… So, I am being candid but careful in my wording so as to escape the fate of being DELETED.

But because some here, never heard that teaching, never KNEW him personally, or if they did never experienced VP trying to have sex with young girls – or young woman --- because in their sphere as personal knowledge “it never happened,” then they feel it just plain "never happened to anyone". Their thinking is limited and harmful to people such as yourself, who is seeking the truth.

Dear Lucy, it was a perverted cult where much harm was done. The things that lured us were in the PFAL class, which is nearly a carbon copy of the class BG Leonard authored, including prophesy given to BG that VP claimed was given to him.

So, God worked in a crap storm and let his words given to a “man of God,” stolen by (IMO) a charlatan, somehow continue to heal people. This created the round and round circular thinking that caught most us… How can I get healed from a class given by VP if he is such a bad guy?

Most of the threads then spin from that, in either defense of him, total denial of his sexual perversion, in saying he is dead and cannot defend himself, or those of us who speak up are liars, etc. etc. Some of us realize it is time to get off the merry-go-round and call VP what he truly was… A perverted sexual predator who stole the class of a Good man – then used it to build his empire (TWI) on the blood and guts of the saints.

They will try and eat me for posting this, do not worry about me, I can handle it and am used to it. But, until you get some strength from the truth and deliverance from our God, hang in there and do not let the “crazies,” the “still confused,” the “apologists,” or the ones who “simply do not know” hurt you.

You saw what you saw, you were hurt and it is time to heal.

Edited May 11, 2008 by Dot Matrix

[WhiteDove]

who's got the agenda, whitedove??

i asked you one simple question, and you couldn't (or wouldn't) answer it...

Jen I answered your question you refuse to acknowledge what norm is that's your problem

Take a poll of everyone that went through the FC and see just what percent or average of people ever saw or believed that kids were beaten almost to unconsciousnes. The percent will be so miniscule that it won't even register on an average scale. It is not the norm as I said.

[lucygoosey]

Thank you Dot, your words are a comfort to me. I've read this whole thread, but I just will not respond to most of it. Thank you for your words of love and support.

[WhiteDove]

Actually,

most reasonable people would have agreed I was entirely on topic when I posted this:

I really don't get WD's fixation with one sentence.

I SAID everyone's experience was different.

I SAID bad experiences didn't erase the good ones.

When I gave ONE example of a bad experience (kid getting a beatdown with the wooden spoon),

WD suddenly took exception. We're 2 pages from where I said it, and WD insisted on

pointing out that not everyone was clobbered with the wooden spoon to the point of injury.

No duh. I said that.

Instead of just saying the same, however, we got a torturously circuitous route of WD

never getting to his point, and invoking the word "norm" and its definition while barely

ever touching on why he brought it up.

The poster who started this thread had some bad experiences- which don't erase anyone's

good experiences. However, the posting of bad experiences despite that seems to

inspire sweeping changes of subject off of the bad experiences by some people-

who then blame others for the change of subject.

If I thought it was unintentional, I'd be more compassionate about it.

However, it seems clear to me it's CALCULATED instead.

II did not blame anyone for the change of anything you were the one whining about being off topic.

So if that is the case ,then when I responded to a part of your on topic discussion then my response was just as on topic as yours. There is no law that says a person must respond to every word of a post now is there. You raised a point of discussion, being children were beaten almost to unconsciousness. I disagree with that, I merely pointed out that "one" if that is truly the case, it does not equal the norm in experience of the thousands who participated. You laid out this example of one under the banner of Quote

If I can offer advice, I would recommend they withhold judgment, and, especially,

speaking on what vpw and twi "would never do" until they knew a lot more about what they

DEFINITELY DID.

You bolded the DEFINITELY DID implying that the above was definite it is not, and no one is passing judgment. I said it is suspect because it does not fit that pattern of norm. If you make a million cars and only one seems to have a problem I would classify that the same, as suspect ,it may turn out to be the truth, even so I would not then take the one exception and disparage the whole line of cars.

[jen-o]

Jen I answered your question you refuse to acknowledge what norm is that's your problem

whitedove, you absolutely did NOT answer my question!

because you evidently CANNOT answer my question...

there was NO norm (and bride has so thoroughly explained the reasons why)... thank you, bride!

you cannot answer the question by telling me what the norm is NOT... UNLESS you first specify what the norm IS...

and this you flat out REFUSE do to by hiding behind your misunderstanding of what the word "norm" means...

if you cannot delineate what the the "norm" (or normal, typical behavior used to "correct" children) was,

then the honest thing to do would be to say so...

not hide behind your misunderstanding of a definition...

if the "norm" changes for something, then guess what, it's no longer the "norm"...

btw, whitedove, do you even have children?...

i DO... and twi leadership advocated ABUSE while calling it "correction"...

it is the REASON i LEFT twi!!

because i REFUSED to follow twi's ABUSIVE child-rearing practices!!!

so stick your head in the sand some more, whitedove...

[Dot Matrix]

(((Lucy)))