Allow me to introduce myself

[lucygoosey]

I grew up in TWI until I was about 16 or so. I have no idea why my family left or was forced out, I don't even know which. We went WOW to Abilene, TX twice (home WOW? something like that) in the early 80's. I was going through an old jewelry box the other day looking for earrings for my daughter and came across my mini-WOW pin. Talk about a blast from the past. From there, we went to Lake Charles, LA. I remember taking a Grayhound bus by myself at 13 from there to NK for Teen Summer School. I have the group picture somewhere. I really enjoyed parts of TSS, especially the greased pig contest and the concerts, and picking fresh cherries off the trees by the dorms. But that summer was where my comfort level in TWI really went south. I had a 'boyfriend' there, and the adults encouraged me to sleep with him in his sleeping bag. He was the son of some fairly high-ups, and really intimidating. It was difficult not to go along with everything he wanted me to do, and some of it I only got out of because I had my period. I also remember being sent into a dark closet to SIT continuously until I could be heard clearly from outside the closet because I was too timid and not filled with the Spirit. I learned very quickly to make up a few SIT's and Prophecies and committed them to memory so I could fool them into thinking I finally figured it out so they wouldn't send me to the closet again. I sat through PFAL so many times in my youth that I still know the song word for word, and could probably teach the darn class myself now if I hadn't burned my syllabus. Same with the advanced class.

Here's a question I have long wondered, that maybe someone here can answer. I was just a kid, so I really don't know. Did TWI encourage homosexuality or pedophelia? I remember one adult woman who always wanted to hold my hand and kiss me while we were walking around at ROA. I never remember anyone telling her to leave me alone, or chastising her for behavior, but rather telling her what a sweet friend she is to take such good care of me. She'd always go with me to the showers. It always felt so freakin creepy.

And that stupid armband, what was that about? I remember white, yellow, and blue, different years. It was always so hot at ROA, and that band was itchy.

I'm now a fairly well-adjusted adult, almost 36, very happily married, three kidlets ages 15, 12, and 3. We're in southeast Arkansas and sometimes attending a Baptist church. I look forward to getting to know y'all!

[Sudo]

LucyGoose,

And we're glad you made it here. Welcome! I can't answer a lot of your questions but homosexuality was NOT condoned by TWI (The Way International) unless... you were lesbian... and kept it quiet. Martindale had a thing for doing it with two women who... oh no need to get graphic. You can read all about it here in the archives.

Your "boyfriend" and the sleeping bag? How could ya'll have done much in a sleeping bag anyways? The last time I was in a sleeping bag, I took up the whole space.

sudo

[Suda]

Welcome LucyGoose. Glad to have you here with us at the Cafe. Here are some refreshments to enjoy while making yourself comfortable, and getting to know us better.

As to your question:

Did TWI encourage homosexuality or pedophelia?

I don't have many answers for you, others here would be better sources of information than me. As the early wild-fire spread of TWI occurred during the heydey of the Free Love, Flower Power days of the 60's, sexuality was interwoven into they way we reacted with our brothers and sisters in Christ. Most was limited to "greeting one another with a holy kiss" and giving the a hug around the neck. Behind the scenes, some of the interactions were not platonic nor loving with mutual consent. Some welcomed it, it hurt many others. Their storis are spread out through many threads here. Someone more knowledgable that I can point in the direction for finding information related to you questions. They'll be along pretty soon. Until then, enjoy the refreshments and read the "magazines/threads" that interest you.

Again, welcome, we are glad you are here!

Suda

[Eyesopen]

I was just a kid, so I really don't know. Did TWI encourage homosexuality or pedophelia?

Wow! That is freaky! In answer to your question, No. They did not openly encourage it. But in certain circles homosexuality was accepted behavior. Even in later years when LCM began his witch hunt for homos the practice was still "overlooked" if you were kissing the right behind (no pun intended).

I personally know a great many homosexuals, many of which were in the ministry and had "successful careers" in the ministry. In other words they successfully went out WOW, had a wonderful relationship with their WOW sister/brother (not always platonic) and held a ton of classes. A person's sexual orientation does not influence their ability to function, think, learn etc in society. That is myth. It also does not make them a sexual predator. That is a horrible slander.

Now as far as I know pedophelia was more prevalent than many want to acknowledge but it was not accepted in any circle that I know. But I wasn't in any of these "circles" to begin with so what I know is limited. All of the pedophiles that I have had the displeasure of meeting are behind bars.

The armbands were for easy identification for Bless Patrol. If you were wearing one then you belonged at the Rock. If you were not wearing one and could not produce one then you either paid to get one or you were escorted of the grounds. They may have had another reason but I don't know it.

Oh BTW...Welcome to the Spot! Enjoy yourself.

[now I see]

There also were many believers around the country who were gay, I wonder if they were forced out too during the purge years of Martindale, sad really.

About 7 years ago I ran across a believer who had stayed with Twi through most of the '90's, who commented on how gross they thought “homos” were, made an ugly screwed up face, and acted like they had the plague. At the time I was at a new job where the one person who had unselfishly helped me learn and basically took me under his wing was a gay man. It was a very competitive work environment otherwise, but this man selflessly went out of his way many times to make sure I had no problems.  

I told this ex way person that and they just shook their head at me in disbelief...priceless!

I had also worked with other gay people at previous jobs, and had witnessed to few, and gone to fellowships with some prior to that and had no problems with them as people. I think there is still a stigma attached to being gay among those who’ve left twi, old habits are hard to break. I also think it’s amusing that God chose Lonnie Frisbee to be a leader in the Jesus Movement. 

Edited December 2, 2007 by but now I see

[lucygoosey]

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against homosexuals. In fact, my best friend is a lesbian, as is my favorite aunt, and two of my sisters. I love them all, but don't agree with their lifestyle. They all know that, and love me anyway. My BFF and I often go out with our good friend, her roommate, a gay guy, to Starbucks and have coffee and conversation. We've all been friends for 25 years now, and love each other dearly. I just happen to be the straight one lol. They were both in my wedding and rejoiced with me at finding the man of my dreams.

I know my experiences as a child could have happened TWI or no. I know that kind of crap goes on everywhere. The thing is that NOBODY ever tried to help me. Even when I told adults, they just said I was lucky to have such a sweet friend to take such good care of me and love me. I was scared to tell anyone about the boy because his parents were high-ups, adn I thought I would get in trouble. Now that I'm an adult, I see how screwed up the whole situation was. I probably should have gone to my parents, but she was their friend, and I didn't think I would be believed. I know better now, especially with what happened with her later on. My mom is still in touch with her now ex-husband, and he's told me mom some things about that lady. I think my point of telling my story here is just so maybe someone will believe me, and I can quit being the victim. In some ways I still feel like that little kid who was abised and molested. I just wonder how many other little girls went through that because everyone else just saw it as 'being a loving friend'.

Anyhow, thanks for the warm welcome, that cheesecake looks divine!

Edited December 2, 2007 by lucygoosey

[now I see]

Welcome Lucygoosey, my post wasn't directed at you, just that I wanted to post concerning the topic of smug twi attitudes toward gays.  There was a thread posted on GS about a man who was a pedaphile in twi who ended up in Alaska who harmed the believers up there, it was reported that twi knew about him in advance.

Look up molester and alaska in the search engine and you'll find the posts.

[WordWolf]

Hello!

I don't have all the answers, but I have a few, and I thought your post deserved some

replies. So, forgive me if this doesn't seem to have helped.

I grew up in TWI until I was about 16 or so. I have no idea why my family left or was forced out, I don't even know which.

For a lot of people, it's not clear if they left or were forced out...

We went WOW to Abilene, TX twice (home WOW? something like that) in the early 80's. I was going through an old jewelry box the other day looking for earrings for my daughter and came across my mini-WOW pin. Talk about a blast from the past. From there, we went to Lake Charles, LA. I remember taking a Grayhound bus by myself at 13 from there to NK for Teen Summer School. I have the group picture somewhere. I really enjoyed parts of TSS, especially the greased pig contest and the concerts, and picking fresh cherries off the trees by the dorms. But that summer was where my comfort level in TWI really went south. I had a 'boyfriend' there, and the adults encouraged me to sleep with him in his sleeping bag. He was the son of some fairly high-ups, and really intimidating. It was difficult not to go along with everything he wanted me to do, and some of it I only got out of because I had my period.

twi was a pretty good place to be-if you were in the minority of the "Haves"-

those with connections. If you were an insider, others covered your mistakes

and so on.

Most of us here were never in that inner cadre...

I also remember being sent into a dark closet to SIT continuously until I could be heard clearly from outside the closet because I was too timid and not filled with the Spirit. I learned very quickly to make up a few SIT's and Prophecies and committed them to memory so I could fool them into thinking I finally figured it out so they wouldn't send me to the closet again. I sat through PFAL so many times in my youth that I still know the song word for word, and could probably teach the darn class myself now if I hadn't burned my syllabus. Same with the advanced class.

twi was a good place to learn to fake godly phenomena, depending on where you were.

Here's a question I have long wondered, that maybe someone here can answer. I was just a kid, so I really don't know. Did TWI encourage homosexuality or pedophelia? I remember one adult woman who always wanted to hold my hand and kiss me while we were walking around at ROA. I never remember anyone telling her to leave me alone, or chastising her for behavior, but rather telling her what a sweet friend she is to take such good care of me. She'd always go with me to the showers. It always felt so freakin creepy.

As others mentioned, the OFFICIAL policy of twi was that homosexuality was wrong.

Under lcm, that turned into "you will be ridiculed and belittled if you're even SUSPECTED

to be gay", and a new label to slap on dissenters was invented -"homo sympathizer"-

invented or promulgated by lcm himself.

Unofficially, if you had connections, everyone looked the other way if you were gay,

same as all the other stuff that OFFICIALLY was disapproved-like adultery and so on.

At least one poster has claimed to have caught twi's current president in bed with

someone of the same sex "while the crime was blazing", so to speak.

And that stupid armband, what was that about? I remember white, yellow, and blue, different years. It was always so hot at ROA, and that band was itchy.

I'm now a fairly well-adjusted adult, almost 36, very happily married, three kidlets ages 15, 12, and 3. We're in southeast Arkansas and sometimes attending a Baptist church. I look forward to getting to know y'all!

As someone stated, the armbands were used at the ROA for id.

When I was in, blue was pfal grads, red was outgoing wows, yellow was "haven't taken pfal",

and white was "I turned my armband inside out to confuse people."

Hope you enjoy your stay here.

[lucygoosey]

That's right! THAT's what the white was! I did that, and have totally forgotten about that! That just made me chuckle. My dad used to get so mad at me for doing that. Thanks for the laugh!

[Eyesopen]

Well I for one believe you Lucy. You just happened to catch the eye of a very strange type of person. I'm glad you escaped unharmed...well for the most part.

It is sad that twi promoted silence above the truth.

I also remember being sent into a dark closet to SIT continuously until I could be heard clearly from outside the closet because I was too timid and not filled with the Spirit. I learned very quickly to make up a few SIT's and Prophecies and committed them to memory so I could fool them into thinking I finally figured it out so they wouldn't send me to the closet again.

I must admit that this practice of puting people in the closet for anything is kind of a new one on me. But you are the second person to tell me about this insanity. So I guess the one that I had heard about previously wasn't an isolated incident. I'm not certain but people that enforce this could be just a little power hungry.

[JeffSjo]

Hi lucygoosey, this is jeffsjo,

Welcome to the greasespot cafe. I'm pretty new here and so far people have been very welcoming to me. I've brought up some difficult topics from my time with TWI (the way international) and topics from my time after TWI and folks have been loving and supportive to me. I hope it ends up being the same for you.

Personally, I'm sorry you went through what you did. It looks like you're not alone in terms of being badly mistreated and taken advantage of. I hope it hasn't ruined your love for God's Word or His people. For what it's worth, I'm certain that God will reward the nasty abusive uses of power that have been done in secret very openly. And in the mean time I hope that your heart is taken care of.

take care, jeffsjo

[Goey]

Lucy,

Welcome to the best cafe in Cyberworld. Hope to hear more from you.

Your sleeping bag story is not real surprising. That kind of stuff seemed to happen quite a bit, but more often with adults. I have heard that maried adults were encouraged or even required to share sleeping space with other married adults who were not their spouses. However this is the first time I have heard of adults ( I assume leaders) encouraging teenagers of the opposite sex to share a sleeping bag. That's just outright stupid if not criminal. Glad you came out ok.

Concerning your question about pediphillia and homosexuality .... I was in TWI from about 1975 - 1982 and was not Way Corps or any kind of TWI heavy in the know. But from my experience as a rank and file I never heard a thing about encouraging pediphillia or homosexuality. I would say that the opposite closer to true, especially with male homosexuality. If anything TWI's official stance borderd on homophobia. There was a homo purge under Martindale, but I was not very involved then. Other's here can certainly tell you more about that than I can.

There has been at least one report of a pedophile being covered for by upper leadership. But I doub't that it was becasue it was encouraged. More lilkely it was covered up in self defense- that the ministry not be blamed.

There have been reports of lesbianism being at least tolerated at certain levels. Seems quite a few men are ok with lesbianism, especially in a threesome kind of thing, and considering the sexual shenanigans that went on in TWI as far back as the 70's, it is not unlikely that it was encouraged in certain circumstances with certain priviliged leaders. However I did not see it encouraged with the rank and file while I was in.

Some folks believe that that the current President of TWI and her top assistant are lesbians and have been for years. The evidence seems to be credible, but IMO not indisputable. Your "friend" seems creepy to me too. Those gut fellings are many times right on.

In any case sex was a big deal in TWI. Some of the sexual attutides of TWI may have been rooted in that wonderful and immutable spiritual law, set forth and taught by the Teacher himself.

"The way to a man's heart is through his penis."

Again, welcome to the spot.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Goey

[Mister P-Mosh]

I must admit that this practice of puting people in the closet for anything is kind of a new one on me. But you are the second person to tell me about this insanity. So I guess the one that I had heard about previously wasn't an isolated incident. I'm not certain but people that enforce this could be just a little power hungry.

Make this a third confirmation then, because although it never happened to me, I know of it being done as well.

[shiftthis]

I grew up in TWI until I was about 16 or so. I have no idea why my family left or was forced out, I don't even know which. We went WOW to Abilene, TX twice (home WOW? something like that) in the early 80's. I was going through an old jewelry box the other day looking for earrings for my daughter and came across my mini-WOW pin. Talk about a blast from the past. From there, we went to Lake Charles, LA. I remember taking a Grayhound bus by myself at 13 from there to NK for Teen Summer School. I have the group picture somewhere. I really enjoyed parts of TSS, especially the greased pig contest and the concerts, and picking fresh cherries off the trees by the dorms. But that summer was where my comfort level in TWI really went south. I had a 'boyfriend' there, and the adults encouraged me to sleep with him in his sleeping bag. He was the son of some fairly high-ups, and really intimidating. It was difficult not to go along with everything he wanted me to do, and some of it I only got out of because I had my period. I also remember being sent into a dark closet to SIT continuously until I could be heard clearly from outside the closet because I was too timid and not filled with the Spirit. I learned very quickly to make up a few SIT's and Prophecies and committed them to memory so I could fool them into thinking I finally figured it out so they wouldn't send me to the closet again. I sat through PFAL so many times in my youth that I still know the song word for word, and could probably teach the darn class myself now if I hadn't burned my syllabus. Same with the advanced class.

Here's a question I have long wondered, that maybe someone here can answer. I was just a kid, so I really don't know. Did TWI encourage homosexuality or pedophelia? I remember one adult woman who always wanted to hold my hand and kiss me while we were walking around at ROA. I never remember anyone telling her to leave me alone, or chastising her for behavior, but rather telling her what a sweet friend she is to take such good care of me. She'd always go with me to the showers. REPLY .......... .............. first of all i dont buy your story about you being made to sleep with some higher up kid what did you say his name was? homosexuality was never tolerated. i went wow 81-82 and i remember on our wow tape we were given vp specifically saying that if anyone was found to be a homo or lesbian they would be dismissed from the wow program that that would not be tolerated. twi never put up with homosexuality. i took the pfal class in 1980 ,went wow 81-82 again 83-84 same thing on our wow tape. i have ben around twi a long time ,and the ONLY thing that i can validate is that lcm and some other women (married and single) had sex.these women were not raped else lcm would be in prison. just like monica and bill clinton they did it by free will choice. great peolpe ay!!! no petiphiles either else they should end up in a prison cell with big bubba or worse !!

Edited May 4, 2008 by shiftthis

[jen-o]

dear shiftthis,

i think i'd better warn you... you will read a lot of things at the greasespot cafe that are gonna conflict with your current view of twi...

there are many people here who have experienced things that you, evidently, have not (and have no knowledge of)...

however, i hope that you will not insult them by calling them liars...

one additional thing:

you don't really think that every criminal is prosecuted and put behind bars, do you??

ROFLOL

sorry, i just think that is a funny joke...

peace,

jen-o

[lucygoosey]

Um, shift, tell me where I said I was 'made to sleep with him'? I said I was encouraged to go sleep in his sleeping bag with him. Way to twist my words. And no, I did not say his name, and I still won't. But since you've been around so long, surely you can figure out my age and narrow down the choices of boys. I lucked out that I had my period, and that's nasty to teenage boys, otherwise I know what would have happened. Believe me, sleeping bags all around us were hopping.

As for twi never putting up with homosexuality, they certainly didn't seem to mind when an adult woman was waaaaay too friendly with an 11 year old girl.

So shift, your experience and mine might have been different. If so, count yourself lucky. Oh wait, luck shares a root with Lucifer, musn't use the word. How about blessed! Hope you can count your socks blessed off.

[WordWolf]

Just a friendly reminder.....

As many posters have said over the years,

EVERY PERSON'S TWI EXPERIENCE WAS UNIQUE.

I'd also like to point out that every person's twi experience was THEIR OWN.

What do I mean by that?

Each person had a different experience from others- whether that be from decade to decade,

state to state, family to family, or any other way. People in the same state around the same time could have

RADICALLY different experiences. That means that the accounts of some people-whether the accounts are

"Nothing bad ever happened to me, everyone was fantastic"

or

"I was forced through a torturous twi experience until I got older and my family was kicked out"

or anything else-

can be quite shocking to posters.

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness"

and WANT to believe posters who say such are liars,

but we have at least one poster who DID get such an assault and battery as a child,

and MANY people have had problems with the official policies of everyone having a wooden beating implement on them,

and how ANY adult on grounds were free to use it at their discretion, with no official policy as to what was too lenient

and what was too strong.

Some people may say "My experience was all close to paradise. Nobody was a problem, everyone was great,"

and others may find that ridiculous, too,

but we have posters who have made such claims also.

I, for one, am not ready to call them liars, EITHER.

Unless one was PHYSICALLY PRESENT at the place and time of an incident, it's not easy to FAIRLY say

"that's not what happened at all", and harder to FAIRLY say "you are lying."

======

There's been many accounts how a person-if connected well enough- could get away with anything, and twi

would either IGNORE it or ASSIST in burying it.

Ever read the account of the child molester twi hid by relocating him,

then had people commit the felony of Breaking and Entering to make the felony of theft possible,

to steal the evidence against him when a twi'er reported the molester to the police for molesting her kids?

That's FAR beyond "what twi tolerated", right?

But it happened-more than one posted reported on this, eyewitnesses.

Is it possible for someone with homosexual experience and tendencies to flourish in twi WHILE lcm was conducting

his witch-hunt for all "homos" and "homo sympathizers"? Impossible you say?

Well, it appears to have happened at the highest level of twi....

=======

And yes, some higher-ups were so privileged that their kids had NO discipline, NO boundaries, could get away

with ANYTHING, and got over with all sorts of things. Some of them called the ROA "score week" for reasons you

can figure out- we even have that one from lcm's mouth- and there was plenty of underage drinking or whatever

as well.

Then again, as one former teen reported, for those who were NOT part of the privileged few, underage drinking

was one coping mechanism for dealing with twi.

Oh, and lcm ADMITTED-IN COURT- to coercion in getting at least one woman to sleep with him.

That's what he ADMITTED to, not everything he necessarily ever DID.

Now, whether or not you call it "rape" if there's no force of physical violence or not is your own

business. However, he was TAUGHT that he had to LEARN to sleep with other women.

He was TAUGHT that by vpw himself. According to eyewitnesses here, vpw wasn't above drugging women

into unconsciousness then having sex with them while unconscious.

Now, THAT counts as 'rape', right?

But when vpw did it, it was carefully orchestrated, and there were people in twi who voluntarily

covered it up (like Mr and Mrs Moneyhands), and people who monitored the victims,

so that if they were going to tell someone, they were personally destroyed and kicked out of twi

to silence them.

That's happened more than once.

vpw never went to prison. By someone's definition, that means he never committed a crime.

If I can offer advice, I would recommend they withhold judgement, and, especially,

speaking on what vpw and twi "would never do" until they knew a lot more about what they

DEFINITELY DID.

[waysider]

shiftthis

I can't remember if I said "welcome" so Here goes

WELCOME!

Hearing this stuff for the first time can be a real slap in the face for many people, including myself.

The thing is, there are people here who not only know about it but also experienced it first hand.

I too was in The Way for quite some time and never had a clue about what was really going on.

Yes, I saw things at specific locations that were suspect but I thought they were isolated incidents.

Without trying to sound like I am being contrite, consider the following: Wierwille taught that alcoholism is caused by devil possession.(spirit of leviathan if I recall correctly.) Yet, He lived his life in a constant drunken stupor, including the times he stood in the pulpit.( What did you think was the purpose of the "mints"?) He taught that any kind sexual deviance, whether it be homosexuality or predatory behavior, was caused by devil possession. Yet, he himself preyed on the vulnerability of, God only knows how many, young women with whose well being he was entrusted. He taught that cancer was caused by devil possession and yet his cause of death was cancer.(A copy of his death certificate is here on GSC if you care to find it.)

My suggestion is to examine some of the materials you with find on the home page such as the editorials, the doctrinal errors in PFAL, the actual errors in PFAL, etc. I also encourage you to listen to the podcasts, especially the latest two.(Through the Fog and Losing The Way)

I sincerely hope you will stick around so we can get to know each other a little better.

One little question(and I hope this doesn't sound out of line.)

Is there still a tithing/ABS policy in place?

What is the percentage? Where does it go?

Again----Welcome aboard.

[lucygoosey]

Just a friendly reminder.....

As many posters have said over the years,

EVERY PERSON'S TWI EXPERIENCE WAS UNIQUE.

I'd also like to point out that every person's twi experience was THEIR OWN.

What do I mean by that?

Each person had a different experience from others- whether that be from decade to decade,

state to state, family to family, or any other way. People in the same state around the same time could have

RADICALLY different experiences. That means that the accounts of some people-whether the accounts are

"Nothing bad ever happened to me, everyone was fantastic"

or

"I was forced through a torturous twi experience until I got older and my family was kicked out"

or anything else-

can be quite shocking to posters.

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness"

and WANT to believe posters who say such are liars,

but we have at least one poster who DID get such an assault and battery as a child,

and MANY people have had problems with the official policies of everyone having a wooden beating implement on them,

and how ANY adult on grounds were free to use it at their discretion, with no official policy as to what was too lenient

and what was too strong.

Some people may say "My experience was all close to paradise. Nobody was a problem, everyone was great,"

and others may find that ridiculous, too,

but we have posters who have made such claims also.

I, for one, am not ready to call them liars, EITHER.

Unless one was PHYSICALLY PRESENT at the place and time of an incident, it's not easy to FAIRLY say

"that's not what happened at all", and harder to FAIRLY say "you are lying."

======

There's been many accounts how a person-if connected well enough- could get away with anything, and twi

would either IGNORE it or ASSIST in burying it.

Ever read the account of the child molester twi hid by relocating him,

then had people commit the felony of Breaking and Entering to make the felony of theft possible,

to steal the evidence against him when a twi'er reported the molester to the police for molesting her kids?

That's FAR beyond "what twi tolerated", right?

But it happened-more than one posted reported on this, eyewitnesses.

Is it possible for someone with homosexual experience and tendencies to flourish in twi WHILE lcm was conducting

his witch-hunt for all "homos" and "homo sympathizers"? Impossible you say?

Well, it appears to have happened at the highest level of twi....

=======

And yes, some higher-ups were so privileged that their kids had NO discipline, NO boundaries, could get away

with ANYTHING, and got over with all sorts of things. Some of them called the ROA "score week" for reasons you

can figure out- we even have that one from lcm's mouth- and there was plenty of underage drinking or whatever

as well.

Then again, as one former teen reported, for those who were NOT part of the privileged few, underage drinking

was one coping mechanism for dealing with twi.

Oh, and lcm ADMITTED-IN COURT- to coercion in getting at least one woman to sleep with him.

That's what he ADMITTED to, not everything he necessarily ever DID.

Now, whether or not you call it "rape" if there's no force of physical violence or not is your own

business. However, he was TAUGHT that he had to LEARN to sleep with other women.

He was TAUGHT that by vpw himself. According to eyewitnesses here, vpw wasn't above drugging women

into unconsciousness then having sex with them while unconscious.

Now, THAT counts as 'rape', right?

But when vpw did it, it was carefully orchestrated, and there were people in twi who voluntarily

covered it up (like Mr and Mrs Moneyhands), and people who monitored the victims,

so that if they were going to tell someone, they were personally destroyed and kicked out of twi

to silence them.

That's happened more than once.

vpw never went to prison. By someone's definition, that means he never committed a crime.

If I can offer advice, I would recommend they withhold judgement, and, especially,

speaking on what vpw and twi "would never do" until they knew a lot more about what they

DEFINITELY DID.

Excellent reminder. I know no two people will have had the exact same experiences across the board. What happened to me was real, and my own experience. For other people, their tenure in TWI was nothing but wine and roses, and I'm glad for them.

[WhiteDove]

Just a friendly reminder.....

As many posters have said over the years,

EVERY PERSON'S TWI EXPERIENCE WAS UNIQUE.

I'd also like to point out that every person's twi experience was THEIR OWN.

What do I mean by that?

Each person had a different experience from others- whether that be from decade to decade,

state to state, family to family, or any other way. People in the same state around the same time could have

RADICALLY different experiences. That means that the accounts of some people-whether the accounts are

"Nothing bad ever happened to me, everyone was fantastic"

or

"I was forced through a torturous twi experience until I got older and my family was kicked out"

or anything else-

can be quite shocking to posters.

Some people may say "It is ridiculous to claim children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness"

and WANT to believe posters who say such are liars,

but we have at least one poster who DID get such an assault and battery as a child,

and MANY people have had problems with the official policies of everyone having a wooden beating implement on them,

and how ANY adult on grounds were free to use it at their discretion, with no official policy as to what was too lenient

and what was too strong.

Some people may say "My experience was all close to paradise. Nobody was a problem, everyone was great,"

and others may find that ridiculous, too,

but we have posters who have made such claims also.

I, for one, am not ready to call them liars, EITHER.

Unless one was PHYSICALLY PRESENT at the place and time of an incident, it's not easy to FAIRLY say

"that's not what happened at all", and harder to FAIRLY say "you are lying."

======

There's been many accounts how a person-if connected well enough- could get away with anything, and twi

would either IGNORE it or ASSIST in burying it.

Ever read the account of the child molester twi hid by relocating him,

then had people commit the felony of Breaking and Entering to make the felony of theft possible,

to steal the evidence against him when a twi'er reported the molester to the police for molesting her kids?

That's FAR beyond "what twi tolerated", right?

But it happened-more than one posted reported on this, eyewitnesses.

Is it possible for someone with homosexual experience and tendencies to flourish in twi WHILE lcm was conducting

his witch-hunt for all "homos" and "homo sympathizers"? Impossible you say?

Well, it appears to have happened at the highest level of twi....

=======

And yes, some higher-ups were so privileged that their kids had NO discipline, NO boundaries, could get away

with ANYTHING, and got over with all sorts of things. Some of them called the ROA "score week" for reasons you

can figure out- we even have that one from lcm's mouth- and there was plenty of underage drinking or whatever

as well.

Then again, as one former teen reported, for those who were NOT part of the privileged few, underage drinking

was one coping mechanism for dealing with twi.

Oh, and lcm ADMITTED-IN COURT- to coercion in getting at least one woman to sleep with him.

That's what he ADMITTED to, not everything he necessarily ever DID.

Now, whether or not you call it "rape" if there's no force of physical violence or not is your own

business. However, he was TAUGHT that he had to LEARN to sleep with other women.

He was TAUGHT that by vpw himself. According to eyewitnesses here, vpw wasn't above drugging women

into unconsciousness then having sex with them while unconscious.

Now, THAT counts as 'rape', right?

But when vpw did it, it was carefully orchestrated, and there were people in twi who voluntarily

covered it up (like Mr and Mrs Moneyhands), and people who monitored the victims,

so that if they were going to tell someone, they were personally destroyed and kicked out of twi

to silence them.

That's happened more than once.

vpw never went to prison. By someone's definition, that means he never committed a crime.

If I can offer advice, I would recommend they withhold judgement, and, especially,

speaking on what vpw and twi "would never do" until they knew a lot more about what they

DEFINITELY DID.

Then again when one experience does not fit with the norm one must look at all the reasons why that might be. Just because someone claims they had a experience does not make it so either. I know people who think they were alien abducted most people would think that not to be true, looking at the mental health background of some would tell you why they might think these things. Claims to experiences do not make them true by themselves people claim things for a variety of reasons.

[jen-o]

what is "the norm"??

[WhiteDove]

what is "the norm"??

norm

–noun 1. a standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical

2. general level or average: Two cars per family is the norm in most suburban communities.

This would not be the norm.

Children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness

[jen-o]

um, whitedove, i know what the word "norm" means... i was asking you what you considered to be "the norm" for twi...

[dmiller]

Shucks. It seems to be common knowledge (at least here on this website), from first hand witnesses' accounts that good old docvic himself told lcm to *loosen up* in the sexual area, or he would NEVER be an effective minister to God's people.

Just WHAT THE HELL can that mean, other than the obvious???? And -- if that took place in the higher echelons of the (cough!!) *ministry*, why would ANYONE suppose that it didn't happen in the lower levels amongst the rank and file??

As they say --- $h!t rolls downhill.

[WhiteDove]

um, whitedove, i know what the word "norm" means... i was asking you what you considered to be "the norm" for twi...

The definition would apply to the word in the way as well, thats how worrds work they use the same definition in each case they don't change their meaning to fit a group. By definition, it can change on a case by case basis depending on the topic as in the example I posted.

This would not be the norm.

Children in family corps were beaten almost to unconsciousness