OM - thanks for saying that. It makes me feel better.
The lady eh? T_T Of course I am not very good at naming some of the stars that are around today... but I betcha my dad or mom would know... or at least my grandparents. Neep!
I don't think it sets a good example, but I'm not going to wag my finger at two single adults wanting privately to have consentual sex with each other. It really is none of my business.
Yes it was wrong for Victor Paul Wierwille not to give proper written acknowledgement in his books. However I continue to bear in mind that I learned from him early on that lots of the stuff he taught was not original.
Any other questions?
(BTW you can ask me these things in PM if you like.)
I tend to feel really ripped off when I buy a pair of jeans with a designer label at a boutique, only to find the jeans were actually mass market produced and available at walmart for a fraction of the price.
oh wait, in the real world, were that to happen, people would recognize it as criminal.
"Let me ask is a wrong for a minister to have SEX with one
of his flock that he is not married to?"
Oldies Replied with:
"I don't think it sets a good example, but I'm not going to wag my finger
at two single adults wanting privately to have consentual sex with each
other. It really is none of my business."
Although Danny didn't say either married or single minister, I think married was assumed, and that he was most likely referring to VPW/LCM. (Correctly me if I am wrong Danny) . But I noticed that Oldies added the word "single" and then gave his opinion on that, while not giving any opinion related to a married minister, nicely avoiding the adultery issue. So I am going to ask it very clearly so the adultry issuse won't be dodged this time.
Oldies, is it (adultery) also just a bad example? Is it also no one's business even if the minister is married, and the flock member either single or married, as long as the parties are consenting?
Do you believe that our freedom in Christ supercedes adultery, and as long as the parties are consenting, and if they are "spiritual enough to handle it" that it is ok for a married minister to have casual sex with one of his flock who may or may not be married?
If it were discovered, would "finger wagging" (confronting the parties) be wrong or inapproptiate?
OM, I should quote you here about the gift certificate, but is it Susan Hayward? If it's not, it's her look alike.
Why don't you just give these guys what they want and end all this back and forth stuff? I know you can't possibly really believe it was okay for VPW or anyone else who was married in TWI to have sex with someone else besides their spouse who was married or single no matter if they said okay or not. Seems it wasn't consenting for some, either. Please, that's all they want to know--do you think it's right or not? We are supposed to have our yeahs, be yeahs and our nays, nays aren't we?
As for the using other people's materials--I believe part of why people accuse VP of it is because in PFAL he very clearly stated that he threw away all his reading material and God told him He would teach him the Word like it hadn't been taught for 2,000 years. What were people led to believe in PFAL? That VP got direct revelation, right? The snow account? He was special. I'll give you that he stated at other times that he learned alot from other people. He also stated though that he knew alot more than other people: Remember the note from the minister about holy spirit? He wouldn't give that man the time of day. Why? And nothing erases the fact that when an idea was re-written by him and it wasn't footnoted, it was stealing. Why steal someone else's research? To make yourself look good, look smart. To build your ego. I mean, why else? Only problem is when people find out what you did you become lower then low in their eyes. And when people find out you took credit for something someone else said and on top of that you took advantage of someone sexually, and on top of that you berated people and used their money to live the high life, let's face it-- you p*ss people off (to put it mildly). Do you understand where people are coming from? Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did it ever occur to you that maybe someone was trying to help you see that you'd been misled? That you'd been duped along with the rest of us? That is called loved.
I still believe you're my brother, man, and I hate to see you walking through life with a paper bag over your head.
Oldies, is it (adultery) also just a bad example? Is it also no one's business even if the minister is married, and the flock member either single or married, as long as the parties are consenting?
Yes I believe adultery is a bad example and is sin and i believe is always appropriate for the church to reprove and correct if knowledgable of same.
Do you believe that our freedom in Christ supercedes adultery, and as long as the parties are consenting, and if they are "spiritual enough to handle it" that it is ok for a married minister to have casual sex with one of his flock who may or may not be married?
no
If it were discovered, would "finger wagging" (confronting the parties) be wrong or inapproptiate?
no
Thats all the questions for me today. I have to sign off. :D
Irisheyes, its not Susan Hayward, but that was a pretty good guess. :)
I suppose I could add myself to Oldies' contest if I hadnt revealed it in shout several days ago. If anyone who saw that would disqualify themselves, I might...though perhaps no one cares.
First, I want to address the moral issues several of you have about vulgarity. This is NOT a back door attempt to criticize the moderators for suspending me; they had no choice. I have no argument about the suspension or the length of it.
What is vulgarity?
I've known how to be vulgar since I was 10. It was a sort of rite of passage. Despite being raised a middle class white boy in a conservative mid sized town, I felt the pressure. If you were a guy in my elementary school, you didn't want the other guys to think you were a prude or a sissy. Thus, you had to at least be tolerant of vulgar speech if you didn't want to participate, when the girls and grownups weren't around. Nowadays, I think girls still shy away from vulgarity, though not as much. Back in elementary school, it was way unladylike to be vulgar, so if a girl heard you they'd rat you out in a heartbeat. It was also considered unladylike to wear pants, so girls had to wear skirts to school even in 0 degrees, but that's another topic.
What is vulgarity?
Last Thursday the TNT channel showed Pretty Woman back to back. I assume most if not all of us have seen the movie. In one scene she was in a clothing store and Richard Gere told the man we are going to be spending an obscene amount of money in here. The man asked for clarification: does that mean merely profane or REALLY OFFENSIVE?
That's what vulgarity is; it's one of several ways to be REALLY OFFENSIVE rather than merely profane. Hip hop music is full of it. Many comedians make their living off of it. Eddie Murphy, for one. If you're Christian, it's not like Jesus is going to take vulgarity away from you along with drinking and smoking. The bible does not directly discuss vulgarity; it DOES discuss being offensive.
Matt. 15:12 - Then came his disciples and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
It doesn't say Jesus was vulgar. It doesn't say he was trying to be offensive, either, but it's clear he wasn't exactly trying to NOT offend them. Somewhere else it says Jesus called them whited sepulchres which outwardly appear white and beautiful but inwardly are full of dead men's bones. That time he WAS trying to be REALLY OFFENSIVE to them.
I'm well aware of scriptures which say give none offense, don't eat with offense and cause thy brother to stumble, or not to offend in word, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't protect yourself. Those Pharisees in Matt. 15 started the whole thing. They repeatedly went out of their way to provoke him. Sometimes Jesus blew them off; sometimes he put them in their place. Just how offensive was Jesus to those people? They KILLED him. Anybody here want me dead?
My conclusion: it's OK with God to be deliberately offensive to people if they go out of their way to provoke it.
Roy: I want to apologize to you for bringing back painful memories about your past. I can relate to a lot of the pain you described. Don't give up; 47 ain't that old.
quote: Or, maybe this is just a "Figure" of Speech, in a modern biblical version which I have not heard of?
Of COURSE it's a figure of speech. Remember what VP said? "If I say the ground is dry, that's a plain statement of fact, but if I say the ground is thirsty, that's a figure of speech. It gives life, fire, vitality to the message!" I no longer agree with his conclusion that figures of speech are the holy spirit's marking as to what's important in the bible. If it's God's word then it's all important in some context, but I agree with him that in all literature, biblical or otherwise, figures of speech give spice and flavor to otherwise generic words.
If I had said, Danny, in my opinion, your post was inappropriate, or if I said, Danny, in my opinion, the adversary had more to do with that post than you did (which I still believe is so), that would have been a plain statement of fact, the FACT being that it's my opinion, not whether you agree with my conclusions. Would've been a real yawner...no impact at all. But I chose to use a figure of speech and got my pov across much better, even though it cost me thus far a week of posting privileges.
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Nero
OM - thanks for saying that. It makes me feel better.
The lady eh? T_T Of course I am not very good at naming some of the stars that are around today... but I betcha my dad or mom would know... or at least my grandparents. Neep!
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Danny
Oldies now we got the new and improved version of you
Let me ask is a wrong for a minister to have SEX with one
of his flock that he is not married to?
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Danny
Oldies
Would it be wrong for a minister to take someone else work
and say that it is his?
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oldiesman
I don't think it sets a good example, but I'm not going to wag my finger at two single adults wanting privately to have consentual sex with each other. It really is none of my business.
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Danny
So olidies I was bad bad.
I shouldn't of used the word wolves.
Can I use something a little smaller like a Fox?
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oldiesman
Yes it was wrong for Victor Paul Wierwille not to give proper written acknowledgement in his books. However I continue to bear in mind that I learned from him early on that lots of the stuff he taught was not original.
Any other questions?
(BTW you can ask me these things in PM if you like.)
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Danny
Private is no fun.
I would want everyone to see your shinny new badge
New and Improved
By the way I am still a sinner.
I still strive to be better each day.
Peace
Oh what about the Fox deal?
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oldiesman
It's unnecessary. Let's stick to the issues.
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potato
I tend to feel really ripped off when I buy a pair of jeans with a designer label at a boutique, only to find the jeans were actually mass market produced and available at walmart for a fraction of the price.
oh wait, in the real world, were that to happen, people would recognize it as criminal.
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Danny
To much coming clean for one day?
What caused the Epiphany?
Glad that you are here.
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Goey
Danny asked the following to Oddies:
Oldies Replied with:
Although Danny didn't say either married or single minister, I think married was assumed, and that he was most likely referring to VPW/LCM. (Correctly me if I am wrong Danny) . But I noticed that Oldies added the word "single" and then gave his opinion on that, while not giving any opinion related to a married minister, nicely avoiding the adultery issue. So I am going to ask it very clearly so the adultry issuse won't be dodged this time.
Oldies, is it (adultery) also just a bad example? Is it also no one's business even if the minister is married, and the flock member either single or married, as long as the parties are consenting?
Do you believe that our freedom in Christ supercedes adultery, and as long as the parties are consenting, and if they are "spiritual enough to handle it" that it is ok for a married minister to have casual sex with one of his flock who may or may not be married?
If it were discovered, would "finger wagging" (confronting the parties) be wrong or inapproptiate?
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
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irisheyes
OM, I should quote you here about the gift certificate, but is it Susan Hayward? If it's not, it's her look alike.
Why don't you just give these guys what they want and end all this back and forth stuff? I know you can't possibly really believe it was okay for VPW or anyone else who was married in TWI to have sex with someone else besides their spouse who was married or single no matter if they said okay or not. Seems it wasn't consenting for some, either. Please, that's all they want to know--do you think it's right or not? We are supposed to have our yeahs, be yeahs and our nays, nays aren't we?
As for the using other people's materials--I believe part of why people accuse VP of it is because in PFAL he very clearly stated that he threw away all his reading material and God told him He would teach him the Word like it hadn't been taught for 2,000 years. What were people led to believe in PFAL? That VP got direct revelation, right? The snow account? He was special. I'll give you that he stated at other times that he learned alot from other people. He also stated though that he knew alot more than other people: Remember the note from the minister about holy spirit? He wouldn't give that man the time of day. Why? And nothing erases the fact that when an idea was re-written by him and it wasn't footnoted, it was stealing. Why steal someone else's research? To make yourself look good, look smart. To build your ego. I mean, why else? Only problem is when people find out what you did you become lower then low in their eyes. And when people find out you took credit for something someone else said and on top of that you took advantage of someone sexually, and on top of that you berated people and used their money to live the high life, let's face it-- you p*ss people off (to put it mildly). Do you understand where people are coming from? Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did it ever occur to you that maybe someone was trying to help you see that you'd been misled? That you'd been duped along with the rest of us? That is called loved.
I still believe you're my brother, man, and I hate to see you walking through life with a paper bag over your head.
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oldiesman
Thats all the questions for me today. I have to sign off. :D
Irisheyes, its not Susan Hayward, but that was a pretty good guess. :)
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Watered Garden
Maureen O'Sullivan?
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waterbuffalo
I'm guessing Lana Turner....
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irisheyes
I think WG has it with Maureen O'Sullivan, yes?
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Goey
Oldies,
I appreciate the direct answers. And no "yes but".
Thanks
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Goey
Looks like Ava Gardner to me.
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Danny
Dec 10
Excited to see what Johnee has to say.
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Lifted Up
I suppose I could add myself to Oldies' contest if I hadnt revealed it in shout several days ago. If anyone who saw that would disqualify themselves, I might...though perhaps no one cares.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Danny
God loves you my dear friends
yes today is the day were one of three things might happen
1. Johnee tells us he is sorry
2. Johnee kepts his mouth close because he wants to put it in the pass and whatever reason
3. Johnee points at us being wrong
I hope he will do one of the first two and leave the last undone giving him self time to move to another stage of growth
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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johniam
First, I want to address the moral issues several of you have about vulgarity. This is NOT a back door attempt to criticize the moderators for suspending me; they had no choice. I have no argument about the suspension or the length of it.
What is vulgarity?
I've known how to be vulgar since I was 10. It was a sort of rite of passage. Despite being raised a middle class white boy in a conservative mid sized town, I felt the pressure. If you were a guy in my elementary school, you didn't want the other guys to think you were a prude or a sissy. Thus, you had to at least be tolerant of vulgar speech if you didn't want to participate, when the girls and grownups weren't around. Nowadays, I think girls still shy away from vulgarity, though not as much. Back in elementary school, it was way unladylike to be vulgar, so if a girl heard you they'd rat you out in a heartbeat. It was also considered unladylike to wear pants, so girls had to wear skirts to school even in 0 degrees, but that's another topic.
What is vulgarity?
Last Thursday the TNT channel showed Pretty Woman back to back. I assume most if not all of us have seen the movie. In one scene she was in a clothing store and Richard Gere told the man we are going to be spending an obscene amount of money in here. The man asked for clarification: does that mean merely profane or REALLY OFFENSIVE?
That's what vulgarity is; it's one of several ways to be REALLY OFFENSIVE rather than merely profane. Hip hop music is full of it. Many comedians make their living off of it. Eddie Murphy, for one. If you're Christian, it's not like Jesus is going to take vulgarity away from you along with drinking and smoking. The bible does not directly discuss vulgarity; it DOES discuss being offensive.
Matt. 15:12 - Then came his disciples and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
It doesn't say Jesus was vulgar. It doesn't say he was trying to be offensive, either, but it's clear he wasn't exactly trying to NOT offend them. Somewhere else it says Jesus called them whited sepulchres which outwardly appear white and beautiful but inwardly are full of dead men's bones. That time he WAS trying to be REALLY OFFENSIVE to them.
I'm well aware of scriptures which say give none offense, don't eat with offense and cause thy brother to stumble, or not to offend in word, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't protect yourself. Those Pharisees in Matt. 15 started the whole thing. They repeatedly went out of their way to provoke him. Sometimes Jesus blew them off; sometimes he put them in their place. Just how offensive was Jesus to those people? They KILLED him. Anybody here want me dead?
My conclusion: it's OK with God to be deliberately offensive to people if they go out of their way to provoke it.
Roy: I want to apologize to you for bringing back painful memories about your past. I can relate to a lot of the pain you described. Don't give up; 47 ain't that old.
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Nero
Mmm hmm... I see.
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johniam
quote: Or, maybe this is just a "Figure" of Speech, in a modern biblical version which I have not heard of?
Of COURSE it's a figure of speech. Remember what VP said? "If I say the ground is dry, that's a plain statement of fact, but if I say the ground is thirsty, that's a figure of speech. It gives life, fire, vitality to the message!" I no longer agree with his conclusion that figures of speech are the holy spirit's marking as to what's important in the bible. If it's God's word then it's all important in some context, but I agree with him that in all literature, biblical or otherwise, figures of speech give spice and flavor to otherwise generic words.
If I had said, Danny, in my opinion, your post was inappropriate, or if I said, Danny, in my opinion, the adversary had more to do with that post than you did (which I still believe is so), that would have been a plain statement of fact, the FACT being that it's my opinion, not whether you agree with my conclusions. Would've been a real yawner...no impact at all. But I chose to use a figure of speech and got my pov across much better, even though it cost me thus far a week of posting privileges.
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