I think a lot of both of you. You've been willing to share a lot of bad experiences and taken heat for it and I support you 100%, as I believe this thread shows very plainly. (Don't worry about me going "but.....", because I wouldn't say that to you ever.)
The vile acts you've described bring me to my knees in one sense, I have no good answer for you. These things that happened were vile and will be and have been judged by the Lord.
I've taken heat for belonging to a cult, and believing things others did not even though they often had no good answer to the doctrinal points I was taught. I've been turned down for jobs because of the gossip that went along with being associated with TWI, even until today that's a painful reality to me. I'm not doing well alone in northern Wisconsin.
In a small splinter group I had an abusive minister turn my wife's heart from me and she doesn't yet understand that my faults weren't worthy of the judgement, and likewise lost my boy too. She does not see that she was led to despise me and love a man who spits on people among other nasty things. I stayed with that group hoping and praying that they'd turn from the abusive style of leadership long after I knew they wouldn't turn, because I felt that if I had anything worthy to say to them that it was worth the risk of losing everything, because serving the Lord was more important than merely emerging unscathed. I must say, I am very scathed. I live like a refugee now and have a long way to go to get well.
In a denominational church since then I was blacklisted to some extent from other Christians by a man who considered my beliefs dangerous even though he refused to deal with me and my beliefs honestly. In this part of the country a little talk behind someone's back often goes a long way.
These things have not turned me from believing in the Grace of God that was in the old days that I remember. But it looks painfully obvious to me that TWI leadership turned away from the Grace of God a long time ago. Otherwise people that I think highly of like you two; Excathedra and Rascal; would have been taken care of a long time ago. I HATE how you've been put through the ringer for simply telling your story.
Things that were never suppose to be allowed to slide in the church at large apparently became deeply ingrained in TWI leadership and their refusal to be honest and/or have a change of heart has left multi-generational scars in many families. They have left many people bitter and dissolusioned and I am very grieved about it too.
I still believe that the Grace of God was in the forming of the ministry. It's no easy thing to determine whether or not a man is simply overtaken in a fault and refuses to confess his sin or was at the beginning a wolf in sheep's clothing. The Lord knows, but I don't.
There is one verse that speaks of not judging certain things until that day the Lord himself judges, that's not much too share with you two compared with the things you two have shared, but it's all I've got, and I don't blame you two if it's not enough for you. 1 Cor 4:5 But the same epistle speaks of the necessity of putting out another person because of certain sexual perversity. (As always, I ask for your patience because scripture is the only way that I can often talk of these things. I hope the rest of you can appreciate the sentiment even if you don't appreciate the scripture.)
I'm glad we can talk about it though Excathedra and Rascal. These are a few of the things on my heart.
I've gotta go, I don't know when I'll be able to get back here to fellowship with you all but it might be a while, take care and God Bless.
I often wonder how VPW would answer all these accusations that are brought against him if he were still alive today. Could he follow suit with the likes of the apostle Paul as recorded there in Acts 24? Acts 24 tells us how Tertullus had accused Paul before the governor, accussed him of profaning the temple and being a mover of sediton among the Jews. The apostle Paul was accused of many things which the Jews assented saying those things he were accused of were true. Of course, the apostle Paul had the chance in that record to answer for himself to the accusations that were brought against him, but VPW can not do that as VPW is dead.
Anybody can bring an accusation against somebody else and tell you their side of the story. The reason most people listen to all the bad news and all the gossip is because that kind of news caters to mans basic deprived human nature. They don't print tabloids because nobody wants to buy them. The courtrooms of America are also teeming to the brim as we have become one of the most litigious countries in the world. One reason why all those accusations against VPW have continued on for decades is because what one person considers a standard for proof does not measure up to another persons standard. All some people need and will accept as proof are other people telling you their stories, while other people need that DNA, hard core, scientific evidence. The question is, can you truly prove to anybody else any of the things that VPW has been accused of? NO! Because whatever you consider "proof" can easily fall far short of another persons standard for proof. But then, proving offences and who is guilty of them is not really the heart of the issue. But that is what many want GSC to be about -- PROVING TO YOU SOMEBODY IS GUILTY OF AN OFFENCE!
What needs to be proven is not the offence, but whether or not you are someone who like the apostle Paul concluded in Acts 24:16 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men." Notice the succession in that verse. First it is toward God, and then toward man - not the other way around. Why? Because it may not always be possible for someone to have a conscious void of offence toward other people. In fact, Jesus himself said in the Gospels that offences would come.
The problem is, many people think they are serving God by blaming others, accusing others, and by placing some "guilty verdict" on them. The scriptures say and teach us differently. Hebrews tells us that we must "cleanse (purge) our conscious from dead works to serve the living God" (Hebrews 9 14) and the only way to "draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith is to have your hearts "sprinkled" (cleansed - rhantizo. Sprinkled is a weak translation. This is a real shower!) from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:22). Why? So that we can serve the living God.
I'm amazed at how long Christians will go with a guilty conscience. Christians will live with a guilty conscience and they don't know how to get rid of it. They've asked God to forgive them many, many times - they've even tried to make up for their sin but there's still that "nagging" feeling that God doesn't like them. They think if they were more like "that person" then God would love them more.
Brothers and sisters - YOU ARE ALL GOING TO SIN - but that's not the question. The real question is if you're going to strive for a clear conscience. One of the requirements of a deacon is that he must keep hold of the truths of the faith with a clear conscience. One of the attributes of a mature Christian is NOT the fact that they never sin or stumble, but that they can fall and get back up again because they know they are forgiven and that God loves them. A Christian must learn how to distinguish between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the guilt of their flesh and the devil. Many Christians today can not. The holy spirit lives inside of us, but we can grieve the Holy Spirit. He's telling us when we're not living in accordance with God's will. That's His job. It's not yours or anybody else's! God has given us a conscience for a reason so we know when we are doing something wrong. That's a good thing. That's conviction, but conviction is only to be temporary. Conviction is to give you power and a desire to do the right thing.
Guilt only weakens us. It hangs over us and it "zaps" us of all our power to live a Godly life. What guilt does, is it maintains the power of sin over us. You see, guilt, as some Christians see it, think that it will give them power over some sin in their life - that if I'm really sorry for this sin then I won't do it again. BULL ....! It's not how sorry you are about your sin that will give you any power over it. It is your belief in God's forgiveness and His grace.
Maybe you grew up in one of those "legalistic" churches. I've met people who grew up in those churches - churches that "make rules" and then make people feel like "second-rate" Christians because they didn't follow the rules. There are pastors out there who love to control people with fear and guilt - and they love to scare people not into sinning, but it just doesn't work. God Himself is not into scaring you. It is not guilt that will give you the power to say no to sin - it is grace and gratitude. Titus 2. What does it say there? "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (v11). It is this grace that teaches us to say no to worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright, Godly lives. The grace of God teaches us to say no to sin. Do you know why some pastors don't like to teach about grace? The same reason Paul states in Romans 5 and 6. He's teaching about grace there, but what they don't understand is the power of gratitude.
I believe it was Philipp Melanchthon who followed Martin Luther. Melanchthon was to spend the rest of his life studying and defending the Evangelical theology of the Reformation. Their relationship developed over the years into a deep, life-long friendship. Melanchthon was to say of Luther: "I would rather die than be separated from this man." Melanchthon once wrote a letter to Martin Luther and asked him, "Martin, is God's grace sufficient to cover all of our sins?" Martin Luther responded and said, "Phillipp - go and sin, and sin boldly!" That's an interesting response. What was Martin Luther trying to do there - was he trying to outdo VPW? Hardly. He was trying to shake Phillip up - he was essentially saying, "Philipp - DON'T BE AFRAID OF SIN!" Don't be scared because that is NOT what is going to give you power over sin! It is your love for God and the gratitude you have for all that he has forgiven you for. Pastors who want to preach legalism and the law don't understand this power of gratitude. But the more you know how much God has forgiven you for, the more we don't want to sin. It is not the fear that God will reject us if we do, we just don't want to out of gratitude for what He has done. The grace that He shows us - we don't want to take advantage of that grace. We don't want to turn on our savior. Grace is what gives us power, and that is what overcomes sin.
Not only does the devil love to accuse you of sin, but he also loves to accuse you of things you've never done. The devil working through self-righteous religious people is constantly accusing you of your motives - ever notice? Maybe the devil is working directly on you. Have you ever struggled with questioning your own motives? You know, I want to do this good deed but is it for the wrong reason? Well don't worry about your motives. You don't know your own motives! You can't know your motives as only God can know your motives. That's why you have to give it to God. You just thank God and say, "God, to the best of my knowledge I'm doing this with a pure heart" - and then go do it." Don't let the devil accuse you of sins that you haven't even committed! He's the accuser of the brethren. HOW do you you respond to sin? Well, you think about that, and then ask if you really enjoy what Christ has purchased for you. It is the love we have for God and for what He has done for us and will continue to do for us that is much more powerful motivation not to sin than the fear of God.
Why don't you want to sin - really? Is it because you are afraid of God or is it because you love God? There is a big difference there. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between GUILT and GRACE! That's what I'm trying to say, and the pastors and the people who try to motivate you by fear and guilt just don't "get it!" Love is a much more powerful motivator.
Look, whatever you do, it's already "in the budget." It's already been paid for and it doesn't matter. You see, God doesn't want us paying for our sin twice. We end up paying for our sin twice when we do it, and then we pay for it again when we feel guilty about it and wallow in our guilt. Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for our sin, and the best way you can honor him for what he did for you is to accept his forgiveness and the payment he made for everything you do. That's the best way you can honor him. You don't honor his sacrifice for sin by living in guilt and being full of fear.
Here's a good question for you. Are there any sins you are feeling guilty about right now? Think about this. Right now, what you need to do is realize you are forgiven for that area of disobedience. The reason why people don't know the power of forgiveness is because they often experience the power of bitterness! They don't understand how insidious it is and all the diseases it brings that humans are terrified of - bitterness is at the top of the list! It's so contagious, so easy to contract. Why? Because there are so many people offending us! SO MANY PEOPLE MAKING US MAD!! ---- AND HURTING US!!! It is so easy to catch and it can be VERY PAINFUL to get rid of .... but if you don't get rid of it ...
Well, you can't imagine what bitterness can lead to. IT CAN DRIVE YOU INSANE! It is what led someone whom I cared for greatly committing suicide. Yeah, refusing to forgive someone is a really dangerous thing to do. It gives the devil an opportunity to enter your life. We say that we forgive, but we often only forgive people from the head and not from the heart. That's why things aren't working between us. We aren't even honest enough to recognize those whom we have hardness in our hearts toward. Is there anyone God, who in my heart of hearts I am a little hard toward? Someone I feel that way about? Not recognizing those we have hardness in our heart toward is a clue that we haven't truly forgiven them. Maybe we forgave them from the head, but not from the heart.
You know, the real reason why we don't forgive them? Do you want to know the real reason why we can't forgive others from the heart? It is because we aren't honest with God about what their sin has cost us. -- THAT IS WHY WE DON'T FORGIVE FROM THE HEART! We won't be honest about that pain. Well, when you pray to God to forgive someone, you be honest with God with what their sin against you has cost you. YOU be honest with God about the hurt and the pain. That's the reason why people don't forgive, because THEY don't want to GO BACK there! That's right. WE don't want to go back to that place where that person hurt us really, really bad. We've just been trying to forget about it, but we've never forgiven. There's a big difference between trying to forget and forgiving.
That's right. You see, if you try to forget it then it still controls you. The devil still has a foothold in it when you're just trying to forget it. When you forgive, then he's kicked out - it's gone, you're free! But you've got to be honest. It's like when you have a big wound. The easiest thing to do is to just "slap a band-aid" on there and cover it up. You just cover it up. After a week or two you see this 'yucky stuff' oozing out of it. "Well, I'll just get a bigger band-aid and put it on there!" No more 'yucky stuff' --- but it keeps on hurting. Then your arm starts getting green. "Well, I'm not going to deal with this. I'm just going to get this "arm cast" and keep on covering it up and not deal with it." Just put layers and layers on top of it - not really deal with it.
Sooner or later you got to come to the point and say, "God, take care of this. This is starting to "smell" and HURT real bad - and then He starts unwrapping all those "band-aid" layers you put on there and you see what God wants to do. Yeah, it's going to hurt. I'm not kidding. I'm going to be honest with you and tell you that it is going to hurt - but just for a little while. God wants to take His Q-tip with his alcohol on it and dig into that wound and clean it all up. But that's the only way its going to get healed - that's the only way.
Yes, it does hurt to go back and be honest with God about how someone hurt you - and give them to over to God and truly forgive them - and then - LET IT GO! But some people want to hold onto all that. They don't want to let it go --- AND IT'S LITERALLY KILLING THEM! But you have to let it go. THEN (and don't you miss this part --- you have to believe God will replace whatever their weakness or their sin has cost you. You HAVE to believe this otherwise you will NOT and CAN NOT forgive them and let it go. God WILL replace what their sin has cost you, especially if you need it. Now don't be dishonest and try to tell God you DON'T need it if you do! The truth of the matter is, their sin cost you something and you have to be honest with God and believe that God is big enough to replace whatever their sin cost you. God is more than willing to make up for it and replace it if you need it. He'll make up for it. Then turn them and their sin against you over to God. Turn them over to God because you're not Him, and let them go.
How will you know when you have truly forgiven someone from the heart and not from your head? This is how you will know.
I think if vpw were alive today, his response to accusations would be more in line with that Demetrius character in Acts 19….Come to think of it – after reading this account – I imagine that's about what went on at the infamous clergy meeting after Passing of a Patriarch. TWI's idol [vpw] was in jeopardy:
Acts 19: 24-28 KJV
24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Truth has a way of getting out. After Passing of a Patriarch – cracks formed in TWI's ironfisted grip on followers. vpw's oppressive lock box mentality began losing its hold. The truth started leaking out about what a sexual predator he was. Let the accusations fly!
Proposing to whitewash vpw and his legacy of deception and preying on people is a travesty of justice. Where in the Bible are we told to tolerate hypocrisy, adultery, sexual immorality, lying, or idolatry? To defend, cover up, justify, minimize or rationalize vpw's unconscionable lifestyle is to give Christianity a bad name.
Today’s message from the pontiff’s podium is entitled “Because vpw had a seared conscience, you should feel guilty.” …It shows you how much he thought of the conscience – he fried his own a long time ago [force of habit I guess] and assumed the role of issuing dictates to his victim’s conscience with his lock box mentality. What happened here - you keep in a lock box…mum's the word.
How ridiculous – to expect folks to forgive an unrepentant sinner! Does God do that? The Bible says He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. …And besides the pontificating fact that it's none of your business what stirs in the heart of someone offended. Only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. Maybe they've already forgiven the offending party. It may just be that they're addressing other issues when they bring up something that happened. Ever read I Corinthians 5? The reason Paul brings up the sexual immorality at Corinth was out of concern for the spiritual health of the church. It wasn't deemed a "lock box" issue.
I've been considering the lockbox issue too. I've been comparing 1 Cor 5 with my recollection of the events in TWI and I conclude that all the immorality was not handled biblically.
In that scripture Paul handled things very openly.
In our times things were covered up.
Paul cared for the man that sinned. In 2 Cor he made it clear that he didn't want this man swallowed up by too much sorrow, he wanted the Corinthians to handle it correctly, and he wanted this man to have a change of heart and come back to the fellowship.
In our times some people that were not spiritual but were in leadership positions decided that a cover-up was the best strategy.
A LITTLE LEAVEN HAS LEAVENED THE WHOLE LUMP.
IT LOOKS TO ME THAT THE LORD HAS CAUSED THE SIN TO BE YELLED FROM THE ROOF TOPS. This is something that the Lord said would happen in the gospels.
It has been very costly for me to endure, but I confronted the one who was building sin and delusion into the small splinter group that hurt me.
When I read accounts like John Lynn's I think, "Thanks for nothing Colonel; you got a good, close look at the enemy and you didn't lay your life down for the Word's sake." I wonder if he even tried.
I wonder if he even took a shot. (Speaking as a former Marine myself.)
I wonder how many people let it slide.
I wonder how many people did not lay down their lives for God's sake, and his peoples' sakes.
The scriptures are clear on the topic. I believe it will all be clear when the Lord brings the hidden things to light.
I still believe that many folks were blessed in the old days, and I will still acknowledge the good things. But " A LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LUMP, so I won't be surprised if people can't see the good.
The thing is.....if we ignore what happened.....if we white wash vp`s reputation....if we deliberately disguise the fruits of his ministry....in addition to being dishonest.....things will never ever get fixed :(
The people still enslaved and hurting continue, not knowing that it isn`t God`swill for them to be mistreated at the hands of these fake christians.
If you can pretend that things were hunky dory...that the people who reveal the truth, are simply attention seeking liars...one remains living in error....it never gets *fixed* one is doomed to a life time of attempting to live up to a false standard, and false teachings.
I like that you want people to deal with past hurts honestly.
I like that you want their hearts healed and not just bandaged.
I agree with you about the effects of false and fruitless accusations, especially in regards to ones who can't defend themselves.
I agree with you about believing that the Lord is the judge and jury, not me.
I am no fan of bitterness either. But getting to the point of not being bitter is often a process, and it's just not effective to make "not bitter" a commandment.
Criminal behavior deserves to be acknowledged as criminal. Likewise with adultery, mental abuse, bullying, or any other bad behavior. God's Word is very honest about these things.
If wounded people are not allowed to talk about these things in an open and loving environment then the likelyhood of bitterness becoming a stumbling block for them is much higher, AND ANY EFFORT TO KEEP THE WOUNDED QUIET WILL MAKE THEM MORE BITTER.
p.s. RASCAL, ARE YOU FEELING BETTER NOW?
( THIS PARAGRAGH ADDED IN EDITING)
I am quite certain that wounded and hurting people are often accused of "bitterness" when it is not bitterness. Other options would be: Grieved, p.o.'d, in mourning, heavy hearted, depressed, etc. etc. I BELIEVE THAT IN GENERAL IN THIS THREAD THE TERM "BITTER" HAS BEEN OVERUSED.
when i first left twi. i wanted to hurt them, and i did. i think i truly believe i did the right thing at the time. i also wanted to hurt certain posters on greasespot. i just wanted to lash out at anything and anyone even remotely twi, and i did.
i hurt people that didn't deserve to be hurt and for that i need to make amends
thank god we have a forum for that but the best way is in person
The word "bitter" sounds like a lemon and sour and no good for nothing.
I like to think I can live without bitterness but i cannot the bible says to THINK no evil well try it sometimes even one dy think no evil.
but i see and hear evil all the time. but im suppose to think lovely thoughts? I do not think i can do it.
I do not trust anymore and God is still on the throne, i often wonder what will ahppen next.
Im thankful but laways on a edge of a diseaster. and im suppose to deal with offense like i did when i was five years old and unaware of just how bad and worse life can get?
How ridiculous – to expect folks to forgive an unrepentant sinner! Does God do that? The Bible says He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. …And besides the pontificating fact that it's none of your business what stirs in the heart of someone offended. Only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. Maybe they've already forgiven the offending party. It may just be that they're addressing other issues when they bring up something that happened. Ever read I Corinthians 5? The reason Paul brings up the sexual immorality at Corinth was out of concern for the spiritual health of the church. It wasn't deemed a "lock box" issue.
Funny how you (as well as others) assume VPW was an unrepentant sinner - like you know whether or not he truly repented - and then go on to say only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. I imagine it takes a lot of humility on your part to take the place of God to know whether or not somebody (VPW in this case) truly repentend in their heart. But I see you completely missed the entire point of my post and choose to focus on sin (specifically VPW's) rather than address whether he strove to have a clear conscience toward God or not.
Whether or not VPW actually strove to have a clear conscience toward men is a completely different issue. I am sure there were times he got very angry and mad at people, maybe he even treated them unjustly, etc. - on top of all the other things people have accused him of. I am also well aware of the fact these people feel that they have earned the right to say any damnable thing they want about VPW without any question - and never be questioned themselves in return.
One of the reasons I started this tread is because the apostle Paul said that he "exercised himself to have always a conscience void of offence - not just toward God, but also toward men. (See Acts 24:16). The question that I am posing is - is it possible (or to use a Wayism - available) to always have a conscience void of offence toward men? I don't think the bible (specifically this verse) is teaching us that it is available to have a conscience void of offence toward every man that is living on planet earth.
The reason I don't believe it is available is because Jesus Christ himself offended people. Jesus Christ offended the Pharisees, the Saducees, and all the other religious leaders of his day. But if the Word of God says the apostle Paul exercised himself to have a conscience void of offence not only toward God but also toward men - then exactly which "men" was Paul referring to in that verse? It certainly can't be every man living on the planet that he was talking about - because we know Jesus offended certain groups of "religious" people, and the apostle Paul certainly was not Christ or better than Jesus Christ himself.
So which "men" was the apostle Paul specifically addressing and talking about in this verse? I believe it is referring only men who are likewise: "exercising themselves to have a conscience void of offence toward God." That seems to be the pattern the apostle Paul is setting forth in this verse, because man's first duty is to God Himself alone, and not unto man.
A lack of politeness; a failure to show regard for others; wounding the feelings or others
The action of attacking an enemy
A feeling of anger caused by being offended
I think we can do these things as Paul suggested, it is easier to just complain and attack the enemy YET Paul is saying do not make that choice.
Jesus also said turn the cheek and if somone wrongs you take the wrong etc...
You point out he "confronted" the religous leaders I believe because they were in oposition to God not so much what Jesus was doing which indeed is Gods will.
If I know Im am doing Gods will for my life and a man or woman disagrees I have no need to offend him/her, let him beon hisown way it is all grace.
and in turn If i happen to offend another with my choices why would he/she need to take offense with me? Now if it is a law or danger something clearly another should protect their own persons that is such common sense.
Anger is not to stay Jesus saw many repent from sin and he didnt say well now i chose to be offended because your a sinner he said your forgiven of your sins. and they then went on their life and he is. He didnt write a book about how every detail of their behaviour messed up their life or His.
He didnt become angry to hurt another to feed his own ego to force change when no change was to be done, He made them awatre of where they were disobedient to God, to show them how in their inability to lvoe another they didnt Love God.
and guess what? they continued on with their plan and did end up completing their mission to Kill HIM.
Even in his righteous anger Jesus was unable to change the will of man.
and I believe that is what paul is saying he is saying i am not going to be in a position to offend anyone , life in itself is enough taking care of the LORDS business without distracting the "prize" with anger and strive and hate.
But the fact another sins does not give me the right to be offensive towards them, I am not the KING nor the judge we have Jesus who plays in the vengence role of life who can see the heart or the will of God truly but the spirit?
I've been thinking about you saying "I can't do it" in relation to thinking no evil and thinking on the lovely things for a little bit this morning.
I really want you to be able to do those things that are on your heart and are written plainly that you refer to. I'm going to consider these things some more.
In regards to not offending anyone and ministering God's Word, we're suppose to learn to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But even if we grow into that there will allways be someone offended at the genuine movement of God's Word and/or the effects of that movement on people and/or the culture. Written records of this abound.
I consider other things along with these things to help.
Paul made a lot of waves, he said his hands were pure from the blood of all men.... (Acts 20:26,27) He was concerned about God's people and his duty more than simply "were they offended."
Wow, now that I'm looking at it verses 28-30 are practically jumping off the page at me. Some folks need to be confronted, if you've ever been in a fight like that you'll remember.
On top of all this, some take this kind of authority to themselves when they don't really have a clue and presume to run ministries even when they don't have God's people's best interests at heart.
Others can think they're doing well, but only end up making it worse.
Some start out good and end up turning to doing evil.
I think that there have been people who did evil and then had a change of heart like the king Mannasseh.
I'm glad that I believe the Lord will judge all things, because I am incapable of judging such a hodgepodge of truth and error. So I try not to get discouraged by all the differences, and hold onto the good from the old days. I have no plans to change my mind about that either.
Even with all that, there are also a lot of offensive things written that were necessary reproof or rebuke.
I HAVE NO DESIRE AT ALL TO RETHINK THE MISTAKES OF YEARS PAST EXCEPT AS IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL HURTING. For me this is the only valid reason to think about the mistakes at all, I can think of no other.
Funny how you (as well as others) assume VPW was an unrepentant sinner - like you know whether or not he truly repented - and then go on to say only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. I imagine it takes a lot of humility on your part to take the place of God to know whether or not somebody (VPW in this case) truly repentend in their heart. But I see you completely missed the entire point of my post and choose to focus on sin (specifically VPW's) rather than address whether he strove to have a clear conscience toward God or not.
Whether or not VPW actually strove to have a clear conscience toward men is a completely different issue. I am sure there were times he got very angry and mad at people, maybe he even treated them unjustly, etc. - on top of all the other things people have accused him of. I am also well aware of the fact these people feel that they have earned the right to say any damnable thing they want about VPW without any question - and never be questioned themselves in return.
One of the reasons I started this tread is because the apostle Paul said that he "exercised himself to have always a conscience void of offence - not just toward God, but also toward men. (See Acts 24:16). The question that I am posing is - is it possible (or to use a Wayism - available) to always have a conscience void of offence toward men? I don't think the bible (specifically this verse) is teaching us that it is available to have a conscience void of offence toward every man that is living on planet earth.
The reason I don't believe it is available is because Jesus Christ himself offended people. Jesus Christ offended the Pharisees, the Saducees, and all the other religious leaders of his day. But if the Word of God says the apostle Paul exercised himself to have a conscience void of offence not only toward God but also toward men - then exactly which "men" was Paul referring to in that verse? It certainly can't be every man living on the planet that he was talking about - because we know Jesus offended certain groups of "religious" people, and the apostle Paul certainly was not Christ or better than Jesus Christ himself.
So which "men" was the apostle Paul specifically addressing and talking about in this verse? I believe it is referring only men who are likewise: "exercising themselves to have a conscience void of offence toward God." That seems to be the pattern the apostle Paul is setting forth in this verse, because man's first duty is to God Himself alone, and not unto man.
Whether or not vp repented on his deathbed – only God knows! But by your reference to Paul's life of service – YOU have established what the real issue is – the integrity of someone's ministry. That is the context of my comments. While he was in power, he never changed his ways. Any woman who came forward to accuse him of sexual immorality – he made darn sure she was ousted from TWI…and to cover his tracks she was labeled possessed. And when confronted about adultery by a particular ministry leader, responded by saying I don't participate in such things.
How much do YOU really know about vpw? If all you go by is meeting him a couple of times at a function when he had his game face on – you're just accepting a ministry persona. Does the fact that vp used to show a porn video to Corps on a routine basis, say anything about his lack of good moral judgment? What is the practical consequence from "the Teacher" spouting off things like I've just so renewed my mind that I don't think evil watching this porn video or him quoting a verse out of context when molesting women - unto the pure, all things are pure. Yes, let's talk about offences…let's talk about the ways of a "teacher", an unrepentant sinner during his predatory reign, who had no qualms sabotaging the moral compass of his followers. According to Jesus, it's a very serious matter when an offence by someone causes another to stumble:
Matthew 18:6, 7 KJV
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
the basic premise of wth's question presumes that there is a valid comparison to be made between the ministry of the apostle paul and that of vic wierwille, founder of twi.............my question regarding this massive presumption is.............do you, wth, truly give equal weight "before god" to the ministry of the apostle paul and the "ministry" of vic wierwille??..........are you presuming that paul the apostle and vic were called by the same god for the same reasons??............are you presuming both paul the apostle and vic received revelation from the same god concerning the bible??.............do you believe paul the apostle and vic were both carrying on "their ministry" with genuine authority and direction from god and his son, jesus christ?............your answers to these questions will determine whether any valid comparison between the apostle paul and vic wierwille can actually be made.................thanks for your reply......................peace.
Do you not know?Uncle Howard said It was us that killed poor ole vic,How you ask?Well we wore the poor soul out,His believing it seemed was our responsibility.....
Guilt guilt guilt..The cult loved to dish it out.Somthing happpens that is not good its our fault..
Someone dies we did not believe big enough...
I asked one time skipping through the mental hoops,In exasperation,What more do you want??
Especially toward the end of my years in der ministry, the leaders didn't lead, they dictated.. and they didn't really "work".
what was really sickening.. to watch a "leader"'s three year old kid develop the same finger pointing habits of the parent.. "there it is, do this, do that.."
and then their sixteen year old kid (or maybe seventeen) at one of the campuses, "instructing" the CORPS..
the parent was so "proud".. even back then with my eyes glazed over, it really rubbed me wrong..
sometimes, I think if they dropped the arrogance, I'd call a truce, and drop my hostility..
I'm glad you're posting on this thread because I've read another one of your posts where you shared about being intimidated by a gaurd dog. I've seen very similar intimidation tactics by another when the honest reports of people's behavior were viewed as a threat. Well, actually only when I was confronting abominable behavior, but that's my experience.
You shared that Chris Geer was there and called ofF the dog, ( I wonder if he'd ever be able to share about the incident honestly though.) so I expect he'd be a possible resource for some honest feedback for the rest of us. Because as I've seen intimidation as a tactic from someone who presumed to be a spiritual man and a leader, I'm bound to give your sharing due credit.
If I were in Chris Geers shoes and it happened the way you said I'd be wondering by now how come I let such terrible behavior slide without ever rejecting the inimidating behavior and then trying to take care of your heart. I've had my head up my "youknowwhat" sometimes too, but it always seems to come back to me later as, "How could have had my head so far up my youknowwhat?!"
My best answer to your question to WTH is that the same Lord will judge both Paul's and DR. Wierwille's ministry. And I'll add for the sake of consideration that several people recieved revelation in the pages of the Bible and later sinned grievously. Even Paul pointed out that even if a minister's heart wasn't right he could still preach the Word, and he acknowledged that as something good, even though it seems plain to me that he didn't like the entire situation. As I count myself to be blessed by the ministry in the old days I just don't want to overstep my experience and go too far. I still remember that life changing moment when I believed Dr's exortation that I was going to heaven and all hell wouldn't stop me from getting there.
Hi FRANK123LOL,
Guilt can sure be a big factor in an abusive relationship, whether it's family, employment, or the church. If I was guilty of any of it ever the one I'd not want to have done is the abuse in HIS name. (supposedly)
Hi HAM,
I guess that sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, huh.
If I read correctly, leadership should be the example of humility, not simply demanding humility in others as some kind of tin pot dictator.
the basic premise of wth's question presumes that there is a valid comparison to be made between the ministry of the apostle paul and that of vic wierwille, founder of twi.............my question regarding this massive presumption is.............do you, wth, truly give equal weight "before god" to the ministry of the apostle paul and the "ministry" of vic wierwille??..........are you presuming that paul the apostle and vic were called by the same god for the same reasons??............are you presuming both paul the apostle and vic received revelation from the same god concerning the bible??.............do you believe paul the apostle and vic were both carrying on "their ministry" with genuine authority and direction from god and his son, jesus christ?............your answers to these questions will determine whether any valid comparison between the apostle paul and vic wierwille can actually be made.................thanks for your reply......................peace.
I wasn't making and I don't believe I have made a comparison between the ministry of the Apostle Paul and the other Paul - V. Paul W. that is. I do believe I made a valid comparison perhaps between the ministry of Martin Luther and VPW, especially where I made the comment when Martin Luther said unto Philipp Melanchthon, "Philipp go and sin, and sin boldly!" I heard that VPW read a lot of Martin Luther's works. Maybe he thought the advice that Luther had given to Melanchthon would be good enough for him as well?
In many respects one could say Martin Luther was like the VPW of his day. Was Martin Luther giving Melanchton an excuse to sin or was Luther absolving him from sin when he said that to him? I don't believe so. Luther was trying to shake him up - trying to wake him up and make him realize that there is no sin BIG ENOUGH that he could commit that could ever seperate him from the love of God.
But if sin is what troubles you and you have still got a problem with sin or someone elses sin for that matter, then I've got some troubling news for you. THERE ARE and there have been a lot bigger sinners in the Chrisitian church than VPW! And guess what - there will be even bigger sinners in the Christian church than VPW coming in the future!!! NOW THAT'S TROUBLING NEWS --- well, it can be troubling news for some people I imagine.
All we hear about and get shoved down our throats by all the "T-bones" (bonehead preachers) out there in the world is how there IS this GREAT BIG SIN you can commit (but in most cases they are often referring to someone they really don't like) that can separate you from God. They even use the sins of VPW as an example. They love to pick and choose and quote verse upon verse of scripture about drunkeness, fornication, adultry, etc., etc., etc. and how all those who commit such deeds (and to put it in the words of Jesus himself so they can appear authentic and genuine to everyone) SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God!.
Yep - you can almost sense their bony little Pharasaic finger pointing at you (or the person they really don't like) condemning you, making you feel guilty and judging you for some sin you committed or a sin you haven't committed. Instead of rather lifting the weight of sin, they are besetting the weight of sin and its consequences on people whenever they get it in their boney little head it's their job rather than the the holy spirit's job.
What happens when they don't get the results they expect? Why you're one of those "unrepentent sinners!" - and that's when you see their blood boil as they end up getting at you and very OFFENDED!
Frankly speaking, I love offending legalistic and religious people. It doesn't bother me or offend me one little bit.
This is interesting, for me you become much easier to understand when you get a little riled. At least you sound a little riled and a little clearer to me.
"SOMETIMES THE LOVE OF GOD ISN'T A PAT ON THE BACK, IT'S A LITTLE LOWER AND A LITTLE HARDER"
When leaders sins are allowed to run unchecked, the results are much more devastating than when others sin. Feel free to quote me.
God's boot to the rear then becomes even harder.
"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
This is interesting, for me you become much easier to understand when you get a little riled. At least you sound a little riled and a little clearer to me.
"SOMETIMES THE LOVE OF GOD ISN'T A PAT ON THE BACK, IT'S A LITTLE LOWER AND A LITTLE HARDER"
When leaders sins are allowed to run unchecked, the results are much more devastating than when others sin. Feel free to quote me.
God's boot to the rear then becomes even harder.
"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
I wouldn't say I'm riled - rather I'm amuzed. I get very amuzed at all the bonehead preachers and legalistic and religious folk who have lately come out of the closet to educate us (ahem) and warn us against (terrify us) about the sins of VPW, etc. et al. They want to make sure you're very afraid of TWI and VPW, and that you stay far, far away.
Be very, very, careful and heed their advice because the way they see it - ol' Doc Vic is going to jump out of his grave, come back to life and rape your sister in Christ.
(Somebody's been a watchin' a way to many of them thar Hollywood horror flicks, me thinks!)
I am not amused, I am horrified by the people who have been hurt.
I am horrified that people were hurt and that families were ruined.
I am horrified that a ministry that started with the more abundant life ended up stealing, killing and destroying.
I am horrified at the future prospects of one who would willingly choose to mock some people who were hurt so bad that all they can taste of the meal of God's Word is dust and ashes.
I'm going to give them a break if it takes them some time (even if it's years) to come back to an even keel.
I'm going to do my best to hold on to the good and not kick the wounded.
Jeff, I think that if folks like wth can make what happened seem acceptible. If they can make it seem like the people whom were mistreated are the ones in the wrong...like the once wounded are just big weenies that need to suck it up and get over it....it helps wth and those who participated in the destruction still feel ok about themselves....they don`t have to get honest about their responsibility.
One isn`t faced with the necessity of soul searching and making the necessary changes to become a genuine christian...they can safely hide behind their pious platitudes. They can safely throw rocks and indulge in hatefull behavior...their meanness all the while masked in scripture...
I am not amused, I am horrified by the people who have been hurt.
I am horrified that people were hurt and that families were ruined.
I am horrified that a ministry that started with the more abundant life ended up stealing, killing and destroying.
I am horrified at the future prospects of one who would willingly choose to mock some people who were hurt so bad that all they can taste of the meal of God's Word is dust and ashes.
I'm going to give them a break if it takes them some time (even if it's years) to come back to an even keel.
I'm going to do my best to hold on to the good and not kick the wounded.
Of course you will be horrified - if all you absorb are the horror stories. When I first saw The Exorcist back in the 70's I was completely "horrified" by it. After I saw the movie I still remember how I was even afraid to go to bed that night because I thought I might wake up in the morning being possessed and looking like "Regan".
But looking back on it today, even "The Exorcist" was a little bit wierd. In fact, a lot of the plot doesn't make sense and the laws of physics would have to be violated to make it even a remotely true story.
But as long as people insist on keeping these TWI horror stories fresh and alive in their mind and the mind of others today, instead of really going back - one can't really see what a crappy plot those stories are telling - much like "The Exorcist" story did.
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal and Excathedra,
I think a lot of both of you. You've been willing to share a lot of bad experiences and taken heat for it and I support you 100%, as I believe this thread shows very plainly. (Don't worry about me going "but.....", because I wouldn't say that to you ever.)
The vile acts you've described bring me to my knees in one sense, I have no good answer for you. These things that happened were vile and will be and have been judged by the Lord.
I've taken heat for belonging to a cult, and believing things others did not even though they often had no good answer to the doctrinal points I was taught. I've been turned down for jobs because of the gossip that went along with being associated with TWI, even until today that's a painful reality to me. I'm not doing well alone in northern Wisconsin.
In a small splinter group I had an abusive minister turn my wife's heart from me and she doesn't yet understand that my faults weren't worthy of the judgement, and likewise lost my boy too. She does not see that she was led to despise me and love a man who spits on people among other nasty things. I stayed with that group hoping and praying that they'd turn from the abusive style of leadership long after I knew they wouldn't turn, because I felt that if I had anything worthy to say to them that it was worth the risk of losing everything, because serving the Lord was more important than merely emerging unscathed. I must say, I am very scathed. I live like a refugee now and have a long way to go to get well.
In a denominational church since then I was blacklisted to some extent from other Christians by a man who considered my beliefs dangerous even though he refused to deal with me and my beliefs honestly. In this part of the country a little talk behind someone's back often goes a long way.
These things have not turned me from believing in the Grace of God that was in the old days that I remember. But it looks painfully obvious to me that TWI leadership turned away from the Grace of God a long time ago. Otherwise people that I think highly of like you two; Excathedra and Rascal; would have been taken care of a long time ago. I HATE how you've been put through the ringer for simply telling your story.
Things that were never suppose to be allowed to slide in the church at large apparently became deeply ingrained in TWI leadership and their refusal to be honest and/or have a change of heart has left multi-generational scars in many families. They have left many people bitter and dissolusioned and I am very grieved about it too.
I still believe that the Grace of God was in the forming of the ministry. It's no easy thing to determine whether or not a man is simply overtaken in a fault and refuses to confess his sin or was at the beginning a wolf in sheep's clothing. The Lord knows, but I don't.
There is one verse that speaks of not judging certain things until that day the Lord himself judges, that's not much too share with you two compared with the things you two have shared, but it's all I've got, and I don't blame you two if it's not enough for you. 1 Cor 4:5 But the same epistle speaks of the necessity of putting out another person because of certain sexual perversity. (As always, I ask for your patience because scripture is the only way that I can often talk of these things. I hope the rest of you can appreciate the sentiment even if you don't appreciate the scripture.)
I'm glad we can talk about it though Excathedra and Rascal. These are a few of the things on my heart.
I've gotta go, I don't know when I'll be able to get back here to fellowship with you all but it might be a while, take care and God Bless.
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What The Hey
I often wonder how VPW would answer all these accusations that are brought against him if he were still alive today. Could he follow suit with the likes of the apostle Paul as recorded there in Acts 24? Acts 24 tells us how Tertullus had accused Paul before the governor, accussed him of profaning the temple and being a mover of sediton among the Jews. The apostle Paul was accused of many things which the Jews assented saying those things he were accused of were true. Of course, the apostle Paul had the chance in that record to answer for himself to the accusations that were brought against him, but VPW can not do that as VPW is dead.
Anybody can bring an accusation against somebody else and tell you their side of the story. The reason most people listen to all the bad news and all the gossip is because that kind of news caters to mans basic deprived human nature. They don't print tabloids because nobody wants to buy them. The courtrooms of America are also teeming to the brim as we have become one of the most litigious countries in the world. One reason why all those accusations against VPW have continued on for decades is because what one person considers a standard for proof does not measure up to another persons standard. All some people need and will accept as proof are other people telling you their stories, while other people need that DNA, hard core, scientific evidence. The question is, can you truly prove to anybody else any of the things that VPW has been accused of? NO! Because whatever you consider "proof" can easily fall far short of another persons standard for proof. But then, proving offences and who is guilty of them is not really the heart of the issue. But that is what many want GSC to be about -- PROVING TO YOU SOMEBODY IS GUILTY OF AN OFFENCE!
What needs to be proven is not the offence, but whether or not you are someone who like the apostle Paul concluded in Acts 24:16 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men." Notice the succession in that verse. First it is toward God, and then toward man - not the other way around. Why? Because it may not always be possible for someone to have a conscious void of offence toward other people. In fact, Jesus himself said in the Gospels that offences would come.
The problem is, many people think they are serving God by blaming others, accusing others, and by placing some "guilty verdict" on them. The scriptures say and teach us differently. Hebrews tells us that we must "cleanse (purge) our conscious from dead works to serve the living God" (Hebrews 9 14) and the only way to "draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith is to have your hearts "sprinkled" (cleansed - rhantizo. Sprinkled is a weak translation. This is a real shower!) from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:22). Why? So that we can serve the living God.
I'm amazed at how long Christians will go with a guilty conscience. Christians will live with a guilty conscience and they don't know how to get rid of it. They've asked God to forgive them many, many times - they've even tried to make up for their sin but there's still that "nagging" feeling that God doesn't like them. They think if they were more like "that person" then God would love them more.
Brothers and sisters - YOU ARE ALL GOING TO SIN - but that's not the question. The real question is if you're going to strive for a clear conscience. One of the requirements of a deacon is that he must keep hold of the truths of the faith with a clear conscience. One of the attributes of a mature Christian is NOT the fact that they never sin or stumble, but that they can fall and get back up again because they know they are forgiven and that God loves them. A Christian must learn how to distinguish between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the guilt of their flesh and the devil. Many Christians today can not. The holy spirit lives inside of us, but we can grieve the Holy Spirit. He's telling us when we're not living in accordance with God's will. That's His job. It's not yours or anybody else's! God has given us a conscience for a reason so we know when we are doing something wrong. That's a good thing. That's conviction, but conviction is only to be temporary. Conviction is to give you power and a desire to do the right thing.
Guilt only weakens us. It hangs over us and it "zaps" us of all our power to live a Godly life. What guilt does, is it maintains the power of sin over us. You see, guilt, as some Christians see it, think that it will give them power over some sin in their life - that if I'm really sorry for this sin then I won't do it again. BULL ....! It's not how sorry you are about your sin that will give you any power over it. It is your belief in God's forgiveness and His grace.
Maybe you grew up in one of those "legalistic" churches. I've met people who grew up in those churches - churches that "make rules" and then make people feel like "second-rate" Christians because they didn't follow the rules. There are pastors out there who love to control people with fear and guilt - and they love to scare people not into sinning, but it just doesn't work. God Himself is not into scaring you. It is not guilt that will give you the power to say no to sin - it is grace and gratitude. Titus 2. What does it say there? "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (v11). It is this grace that teaches us to say no to worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright, Godly lives. The grace of God teaches us to say no to sin. Do you know why some pastors don't like to teach about grace? The same reason Paul states in Romans 5 and 6. He's teaching about grace there, but what they don't understand is the power of gratitude.
I believe it was Philipp Melanchthon who followed Martin Luther. Melanchthon was to spend the rest of his life studying and defending the Evangelical theology of the Reformation. Their relationship developed over the years into a deep, life-long friendship. Melanchthon was to say of Luther: "I would rather die than be separated from this man." Melanchthon once wrote a letter to Martin Luther and asked him, "Martin, is God's grace sufficient to cover all of our sins?" Martin Luther responded and said, "Phillipp - go and sin, and sin boldly!" That's an interesting response. What was Martin Luther trying to do there - was he trying to outdo VPW? Hardly. He was trying to shake Phillip up - he was essentially saying, "Philipp - DON'T BE AFRAID OF SIN!" Don't be scared because that is NOT what is going to give you power over sin! It is your love for God and the gratitude you have for all that he has forgiven you for. Pastors who want to preach legalism and the law don't understand this power of gratitude. But the more you know how much God has forgiven you for, the more we don't want to sin. It is not the fear that God will reject us if we do, we just don't want to out of gratitude for what He has done. The grace that He shows us - we don't want to take advantage of that grace. We don't want to turn on our savior. Grace is what gives us power, and that is what overcomes sin.
Not only does the devil love to accuse you of sin, but he also loves to accuse you of things you've never done. The devil working through self-righteous religious people is constantly accusing you of your motives - ever notice? Maybe the devil is working directly on you. Have you ever struggled with questioning your own motives? You know, I want to do this good deed but is it for the wrong reason? Well don't worry about your motives. You don't know your own motives! You can't know your motives as only God can know your motives. That's why you have to give it to God. You just thank God and say, "God, to the best of my knowledge I'm doing this with a pure heart" - and then go do it." Don't let the devil accuse you of sins that you haven't even committed! He's the accuser of the brethren. HOW do you you respond to sin? Well, you think about that, and then ask if you really enjoy what Christ has purchased for you. It is the love we have for God and for what He has done for us and will continue to do for us that is much more powerful motivation not to sin than the fear of God.
Why don't you want to sin - really? Is it because you are afraid of God or is it because you love God? There is a big difference there. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between GUILT and GRACE! That's what I'm trying to say, and the pastors and the people who try to motivate you by fear and guilt just don't "get it!" Love is a much more powerful motivator.
Look, whatever you do, it's already "in the budget." It's already been paid for and it doesn't matter. You see, God doesn't want us paying for our sin twice. We end up paying for our sin twice when we do it, and then we pay for it again when we feel guilty about it and wallow in our guilt. Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for our sin, and the best way you can honor him for what he did for you is to accept his forgiveness and the payment he made for everything you do. That's the best way you can honor him. You don't honor his sacrifice for sin by living in guilt and being full of fear.
Here's a good question for you. Are there any sins you are feeling guilty about right now? Think about this. Right now, what you need to do is realize you are forgiven for that area of disobedience. The reason why people don't know the power of forgiveness is because they often experience the power of bitterness! They don't understand how insidious it is and all the diseases it brings that humans are terrified of - bitterness is at the top of the list! It's so contagious, so easy to contract. Why? Because there are so many people offending us! SO MANY PEOPLE MAKING US MAD!! ---- AND HURTING US!!! It is so easy to catch and it can be VERY PAINFUL to get rid of .... but if you don't get rid of it ...
Well, you can't imagine what bitterness can lead to. IT CAN DRIVE YOU INSANE! It is what led someone whom I cared for greatly committing suicide. Yeah, refusing to forgive someone is a really dangerous thing to do. It gives the devil an opportunity to enter your life. We say that we forgive, but we often only forgive people from the head and not from the heart. That's why things aren't working between us. We aren't even honest enough to recognize those whom we have hardness in our hearts toward. Is there anyone God, who in my heart of hearts I am a little hard toward? Someone I feel that way about? Not recognizing those we have hardness in our heart toward is a clue that we haven't truly forgiven them. Maybe we forgave them from the head, but not from the heart.
You know, the real reason why we don't forgive them? Do you want to know the real reason why we can't forgive others from the heart? It is because we aren't honest with God about what their sin has cost us. -- THAT IS WHY WE DON'T FORGIVE FROM THE HEART! We won't be honest about that pain. Well, when you pray to God to forgive someone, you be honest with God with what their sin against you has cost you. YOU be honest with God about the hurt and the pain. That's the reason why people don't forgive, because THEY don't want to GO BACK there! That's right. WE don't want to go back to that place where that person hurt us really, really bad. We've just been trying to forget about it, but we've never forgiven. There's a big difference between trying to forget and forgiving.
That's right. You see, if you try to forget it then it still controls you. The devil still has a foothold in it when you're just trying to forget it. When you forgive, then he's kicked out - it's gone, you're free! But you've got to be honest. It's like when you have a big wound. The easiest thing to do is to just "slap a band-aid" on there and cover it up. You just cover it up. After a week or two you see this 'yucky stuff' oozing out of it. "Well, I'll just get a bigger band-aid and put it on there!" No more 'yucky stuff' --- but it keeps on hurting. Then your arm starts getting green. "Well, I'm not going to deal with this. I'm just going to get this "arm cast" and keep on covering it up and not deal with it." Just put layers and layers on top of it - not really deal with it.
Sooner or later you got to come to the point and say, "God, take care of this. This is starting to "smell" and HURT real bad - and then He starts unwrapping all those "band-aid" layers you put on there and you see what God wants to do. Yeah, it's going to hurt. I'm not kidding. I'm going to be honest with you and tell you that it is going to hurt - but just for a little while. God wants to take His Q-tip with his alcohol on it and dig into that wound and clean it all up. But that's the only way its going to get healed - that's the only way.
Yes, it does hurt to go back and be honest with God about how someone hurt you - and give them to over to God and truly forgive them - and then - LET IT GO! But some people want to hold onto all that. They don't want to let it go --- AND IT'S LITERALLY KILLING THEM! But you have to let it go. THEN (and don't you miss this part --- you have to believe God will replace whatever their weakness or their sin has cost you. You HAVE to believe this otherwise you will NOT and CAN NOT forgive them and let it go. God WILL replace what their sin has cost you, especially if you need it. Now don't be dishonest and try to tell God you DON'T need it if you do! The truth of the matter is, their sin cost you something and you have to be honest with God and believe that God is big enough to replace whatever their sin cost you. God is more than willing to make up for it and replace it if you need it. He'll make up for it. Then turn them and their sin against you over to God. Turn them over to God because you're not Him, and let them go.
How will you know when you have truly forgiven someone from the heart and not from your head? This is how you will know.
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T-Bone
I think if vpw were alive today, his response to accusations would be more in line with that Demetrius character in Acts 19….Come to think of it – after reading this account – I imagine that's about what went on at the infamous clergy meeting after Passing of a Patriarch. TWI's idol [vpw] was in jeopardy:
Acts 19: 24-28 KJV
24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.
28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.
Truth has a way of getting out. After Passing of a Patriarch – cracks formed in TWI's ironfisted grip on followers. vpw's oppressive lock box mentality began losing its hold. The truth started leaking out about what a sexual predator he was. Let the accusations fly!
Proposing to whitewash vpw and his legacy of deception and preying on people is a travesty of justice. Where in the Bible are we told to tolerate hypocrisy, adultery, sexual immorality, lying, or idolatry? To defend, cover up, justify, minimize or rationalize vpw's unconscionable lifestyle is to give Christianity a bad name.
Today’s message from the pontiff’s podium is entitled “Because vpw had a seared conscience, you should feel guilty.” …It shows you how much he thought of the conscience – he fried his own a long time ago [force of habit I guess] and assumed the role of issuing dictates to his victim’s conscience with his lock box mentality. What happened here - you keep in a lock box…mum's the word.
How ridiculous – to expect folks to forgive an unrepentant sinner! Does God do that? The Bible says He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. …And besides the pontificating fact that it's none of your business what stirs in the heart of someone offended. Only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. Maybe they've already forgiven the offending party. It may just be that they're addressing other issues when they bring up something that happened. Ever read I Corinthians 5? The reason Paul brings up the sexual immorality at Corinth was out of concern for the spiritual health of the church. It wasn't deemed a "lock box" issue.
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JeffSjo
Hi T-Bone,
I've been considering the lockbox issue too. I've been comparing 1 Cor 5 with my recollection of the events in TWI and I conclude that all the immorality was not handled biblically.
In that scripture Paul handled things very openly.
In our times things were covered up.
Paul cared for the man that sinned. In 2 Cor he made it clear that he didn't want this man swallowed up by too much sorrow, he wanted the Corinthians to handle it correctly, and he wanted this man to have a change of heart and come back to the fellowship.
In our times some people that were not spiritual but were in leadership positions decided that a cover-up was the best strategy.
A LITTLE LEAVEN HAS LEAVENED THE WHOLE LUMP.
IT LOOKS TO ME THAT THE LORD HAS CAUSED THE SIN TO BE YELLED FROM THE ROOF TOPS. This is something that the Lord said would happen in the gospels.
It has been very costly for me to endure, but I confronted the one who was building sin and delusion into the small splinter group that hurt me.
When I read accounts like John Lynn's I think, "Thanks for nothing Colonel; you got a good, close look at the enemy and you didn't lay your life down for the Word's sake." I wonder if he even tried.
I wonder if he even took a shot. (Speaking as a former Marine myself.)
I wonder how many people let it slide.
I wonder how many people did not lay down their lives for God's sake, and his peoples' sakes.
The scriptures are clear on the topic. I believe it will all be clear when the Lord brings the hidden things to light.
I still believe that many folks were blessed in the old days, and I will still acknowledge the good things. But " A LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LUMP, so I won't be surprised if people can't see the good.
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rascal
The thing is.....if we ignore what happened.....if we white wash vp`s reputation....if we deliberately disguise the fruits of his ministry....in addition to being dishonest.....things will never ever get fixed :(
The people still enslaved and hurting continue, not knowing that it isn`t God`swill for them to be mistreated at the hands of these fake christians.
If you can pretend that things were hunky dory...that the people who reveal the truth, are simply attention seeking liars...one remains living in error....it never gets *fixed* one is doomed to a life time of attempting to live up to a false standard, and false teachings.
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JeffSjo
Hi What the Hey,
I like that you want people to deal with past hurts honestly.
I like that you want their hearts healed and not just bandaged.
I agree with you about the effects of false and fruitless accusations, especially in regards to ones who can't defend themselves.
I agree with you about believing that the Lord is the judge and jury, not me.
I am no fan of bitterness either. But getting to the point of not being bitter is often a process, and it's just not effective to make "not bitter" a commandment.
Criminal behavior deserves to be acknowledged as criminal. Likewise with adultery, mental abuse, bullying, or any other bad behavior. God's Word is very honest about these things.
If wounded people are not allowed to talk about these things in an open and loving environment then the likelyhood of bitterness becoming a stumbling block for them is much higher, AND ANY EFFORT TO KEEP THE WOUNDED QUIET WILL MAKE THEM MORE BITTER.
p.s. RASCAL, ARE YOU FEELING BETTER NOW?
( THIS PARAGRAGH ADDED IN EDITING)
I am quite certain that wounded and hurting people are often accused of "bitterness" when it is not bitterness. Other options would be: Grieved, p.o.'d, in mourning, heavy hearted, depressed, etc. etc. I BELIEVE THAT IN GENERAL IN THIS THREAD THE TERM "BITTER" HAS BEEN OVERUSED.
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Bingo Jones
wow, lot 'o words
they are valid though.
when i first left twi. i wanted to hurt them, and i did. i think i truly believe i did the right thing at the time. i also wanted to hurt certain posters on greasespot. i just wanted to lash out at anything and anyone even remotely twi, and i did.
i hurt people that didn't deserve to be hurt and for that i need to make amends
thank god we have a forum for that but the best way is in person
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pond
The word "bitter" sounds like a lemon and sour and no good for nothing.
I like to think I can live without bitterness but i cannot the bible says to THINK no evil well try it sometimes even one dy think no evil.
but i see and hear evil all the time. but im suppose to think lovely thoughts? I do not think i can do it.
I do not trust anymore and God is still on the throne, i often wonder what will ahppen next.
Im thankful but laways on a edge of a diseaster. and im suppose to deal with offense like i did when i was five years old and unaware of just how bad and worse life can get?
I cant do it.
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What The Hey
Funny how you (as well as others) assume VPW was an unrepentant sinner - like you know whether or not he truly repented - and then go on to say only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. I imagine it takes a lot of humility on your part to take the place of God to know whether or not somebody (VPW in this case) truly repentend in their heart. But I see you completely missed the entire point of my post and choose to focus on sin (specifically VPW's) rather than address whether he strove to have a clear conscience toward God or not.
Whether or not VPW actually strove to have a clear conscience toward men is a completely different issue. I am sure there were times he got very angry and mad at people, maybe he even treated them unjustly, etc. - on top of all the other things people have accused him of. I am also well aware of the fact these people feel that they have earned the right to say any damnable thing they want about VPW without any question - and never be questioned themselves in return.
One of the reasons I started this tread is because the apostle Paul said that he "exercised himself to have always a conscience void of offence - not just toward God, but also toward men. (See Acts 24:16). The question that I am posing is - is it possible (or to use a Wayism - available) to always have a conscience void of offence toward men? I don't think the bible (specifically this verse) is teaching us that it is available to have a conscience void of offence toward every man that is living on planet earth.
The reason I don't believe it is available is because Jesus Christ himself offended people. Jesus Christ offended the Pharisees, the Saducees, and all the other religious leaders of his day. But if the Word of God says the apostle Paul exercised himself to have a conscience void of offence not only toward God but also toward men - then exactly which "men" was Paul referring to in that verse? It certainly can't be every man living on the planet that he was talking about - because we know Jesus offended certain groups of "religious" people, and the apostle Paul certainly was not Christ or better than Jesus Christ himself.
So which "men" was the apostle Paul specifically addressing and talking about in this verse? I believe it is referring only men who are likewise: "exercising themselves to have a conscience void of offence toward God." That seems to be the pattern the apostle Paul is setting forth in this verse, because man's first duty is to God Himself alone, and not unto man.
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pond
A lack of politeness; a failure to show regard for others; wounding the feelings or others
The action of attacking an enemy
A feeling of anger caused by being offended
I think we can do these things as Paul suggested, it is easier to just complain and attack the enemy YET Paul is saying do not make that choice.
Jesus also said turn the cheek and if somone wrongs you take the wrong etc...
You point out he "confronted" the religous leaders I believe because they were in oposition to God not so much what Jesus was doing which indeed is Gods will.
If I know Im am doing Gods will for my life and a man or woman disagrees I have no need to offend him/her, let him beon hisown way it is all grace.
and in turn If i happen to offend another with my choices why would he/she need to take offense with me? Now if it is a law or danger something clearly another should protect their own persons that is such common sense.
Anger is not to stay Jesus saw many repent from sin and he didnt say well now i chose to be offended because your a sinner he said your forgiven of your sins. and they then went on their life and he is. He didnt write a book about how every detail of their behaviour messed up their life or His.
He didnt become angry to hurt another to feed his own ego to force change when no change was to be done, He made them awatre of where they were disobedient to God, to show them how in their inability to lvoe another they didnt Love God.
and guess what? they continued on with their plan and did end up completing their mission to Kill HIM.
Even in his righteous anger Jesus was unable to change the will of man.
and I believe that is what paul is saying he is saying i am not going to be in a position to offend anyone , life in itself is enough taking care of the LORDS business without distracting the "prize" with anger and strive and hate.
But the fact another sins does not give me the right to be offensive towards them, I am not the KING nor the judge we have Jesus who plays in the vengence role of life who can see the heart or the will of God truly but the spirit?
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JeffSjo
Hi Pond,
I've been thinking about you saying "I can't do it" in relation to thinking no evil and thinking on the lovely things for a little bit this morning.
I really want you to be able to do those things that are on your heart and are written plainly that you refer to. I'm going to consider these things some more.
In regards to not offending anyone and ministering God's Word, we're suppose to learn to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But even if we grow into that there will allways be someone offended at the genuine movement of God's Word and/or the effects of that movement on people and/or the culture. Written records of this abound.
I consider other things along with these things to help.
Paul made a lot of waves, he said his hands were pure from the blood of all men.... (Acts 20:26,27) He was concerned about God's people and his duty more than simply "were they offended."
Wow, now that I'm looking at it verses 28-30 are practically jumping off the page at me. Some folks need to be confronted, if you've ever been in a fight like that you'll remember.
On top of all this, some take this kind of authority to themselves when they don't really have a clue and presume to run ministries even when they don't have God's people's best interests at heart.
Others can think they're doing well, but only end up making it worse.
Some start out good and end up turning to doing evil.
I think that there have been people who did evil and then had a change of heart like the king Mannasseh.
I'm glad that I believe the Lord will judge all things, because I am incapable of judging such a hodgepodge of truth and error. So I try not to get discouraged by all the differences, and hold onto the good from the old days. I have no plans to change my mind about that either.
Even with all that, there are also a lot of offensive things written that were necessary reproof or rebuke.
I HAVE NO DESIRE AT ALL TO RETHINK THE MISTAKES OF YEARS PAST EXCEPT AS IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TO TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL HURTING. For me this is the only valid reason to think about the mistakes at all, I can think of no other.
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T-Bone
Whether or not vp repented on his deathbed – only God knows! But by your reference to Paul's life of service – YOU have established what the real issue is – the integrity of someone's ministry. That is the context of my comments. While he was in power, he never changed his ways. Any woman who came forward to accuse him of sexual immorality – he made darn sure she was ousted from TWI…and to cover his tracks she was labeled possessed. And when confronted about adultery by a particular ministry leader, responded by saying I don't participate in such things.
How much do YOU really know about vpw? If all you go by is meeting him a couple of times at a function when he had his game face on – you're just accepting a ministry persona. Does the fact that vp used to show a porn video to Corps on a routine basis, say anything about his lack of good moral judgment? What is the practical consequence from "the Teacher" spouting off things like I've just so renewed my mind that I don't think evil watching this porn video or him quoting a verse out of context when molesting women - unto the pure, all things are pure. Yes, let's talk about offences…let's talk about the ways of a "teacher", an unrepentant sinner during his predatory reign, who had no qualms sabotaging the moral compass of his followers. According to Jesus, it's a very serious matter when an offence by someone causes another to stumble:
Matthew 18:6, 7 KJV
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
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JeffSjo
Hi T-Bone,
I didn't know you were here, I'm glad you are.
When I here about things like you describe but that I never saw the first thing that comes to mind is "Where were the watchmen!!!!!"
I'd like to fellowship some more, but I've gotta go now. Take care and God Bless.
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DontWorryBeHappy
the basic premise of wth's question presumes that there is a valid comparison to be made between the ministry of the apostle paul and that of vic wierwille, founder of twi.............my question regarding this massive presumption is.............do you, wth, truly give equal weight "before god" to the ministry of the apostle paul and the "ministry" of vic wierwille??..........are you presuming that paul the apostle and vic were called by the same god for the same reasons??............are you presuming both paul the apostle and vic received revelation from the same god concerning the bible??.............do you believe paul the apostle and vic were both carrying on "their ministry" with genuine authority and direction from god and his son, jesus christ?............your answers to these questions will determine whether any valid comparison between the apostle paul and vic wierwille can actually be made.................thanks for your reply......................peace.
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frank123lol
Do you not know?Uncle Howard said It was us that killed poor ole vic,How you ask?Well we wore the poor soul out,His believing it seemed was our responsibility.....
Guilt guilt guilt..The cult loved to dish it out.Somthing happpens that is not good its our fault..
Someone dies we did not believe big enough...
I asked one time skipping through the mental hoops,In exasperation,What more do you want??
No anser,see they want more and more....
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Ham
Yeah.. some "leaders and workers" they produced.
Especially toward the end of my years in der ministry, the leaders didn't lead, they dictated.. and they didn't really "work".
what was really sickening.. to watch a "leader"'s three year old kid develop the same finger pointing habits of the parent.. "there it is, do this, do that.."
and then their sixteen year old kid (or maybe seventeen) at one of the campuses, "instructing" the CORPS..
the parent was so "proud".. even back then with my eyes glazed over, it really rubbed me wrong..
sometimes, I think if they dropped the arrogance, I'd call a truce, and drop my hostility..
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JeffSjo
Hi DON'TWORRYBEHAPPY,
I'm glad you're posting on this thread because I've read another one of your posts where you shared about being intimidated by a gaurd dog. I've seen very similar intimidation tactics by another when the honest reports of people's behavior were viewed as a threat. Well, actually only when I was confronting abominable behavior, but that's my experience.
You shared that Chris Geer was there and called ofF the dog, ( I wonder if he'd ever be able to share about the incident honestly though.) so I expect he'd be a possible resource for some honest feedback for the rest of us. Because as I've seen intimidation as a tactic from someone who presumed to be a spiritual man and a leader, I'm bound to give your sharing due credit.
If I were in Chris Geers shoes and it happened the way you said I'd be wondering by now how come I let such terrible behavior slide without ever rejecting the inimidating behavior and then trying to take care of your heart. I've had my head up my "youknowwhat" sometimes too, but it always seems to come back to me later as, "How could have had my head so far up my youknowwhat?!"
My best answer to your question to WTH is that the same Lord will judge both Paul's and DR. Wierwille's ministry. And I'll add for the sake of consideration that several people recieved revelation in the pages of the Bible and later sinned grievously. Even Paul pointed out that even if a minister's heart wasn't right he could still preach the Word, and he acknowledged that as something good, even though it seems plain to me that he didn't like the entire situation. As I count myself to be blessed by the ministry in the old days I just don't want to overstep my experience and go too far. I still remember that life changing moment when I believed Dr's exortation that I was going to heaven and all hell wouldn't stop me from getting there.
Hi FRANK123LOL,
Guilt can sure be a big factor in an abusive relationship, whether it's family, employment, or the church. If I was guilty of any of it ever the one I'd not want to have done is the abuse in HIS name. (supposedly)
Hi HAM,
I guess that sometimes the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, huh.
If I read correctly, leadership should be the example of humility, not simply demanding humility in others as some kind of tin pot dictator.
p.s. edited for spelling.
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What The Hey
I wasn't making and I don't believe I have made a comparison between the ministry of the Apostle Paul and the other Paul - V. Paul W. that is. I do believe I made a valid comparison perhaps between the ministry of Martin Luther and VPW, especially where I made the comment when Martin Luther said unto Philipp Melanchthon, "Philipp go and sin, and sin boldly!" I heard that VPW read a lot of Martin Luther's works. Maybe he thought the advice that Luther had given to Melanchthon would be good enough for him as well?
In many respects one could say Martin Luther was like the VPW of his day. Was Martin Luther giving Melanchton an excuse to sin or was Luther absolving him from sin when he said that to him? I don't believe so. Luther was trying to shake him up - trying to wake him up and make him realize that there is no sin BIG ENOUGH that he could commit that could ever seperate him from the love of God.
But if sin is what troubles you and you have still got a problem with sin or someone elses sin for that matter, then I've got some troubling news for you. THERE ARE and there have been a lot bigger sinners in the Chrisitian church than VPW! And guess what - there will be even bigger sinners in the Christian church than VPW coming in the future!!! NOW THAT'S TROUBLING NEWS --- well, it can be troubling news for some people I imagine.
All we hear about and get shoved down our throats by all the "T-bones" (bonehead preachers) out there in the world is how there IS this GREAT BIG SIN you can commit (but in most cases they are often referring to someone they really don't like) that can separate you from God. They even use the sins of VPW as an example. They love to pick and choose and quote verse upon verse of scripture about drunkeness, fornication, adultry, etc., etc., etc. and how all those who commit such deeds (and to put it in the words of Jesus himself so they can appear authentic and genuine to everyone) SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God!.
Yep - you can almost sense their bony little Pharasaic finger pointing at you (or the person they really don't like) condemning you, making you feel guilty and judging you for some sin you committed or a sin you haven't committed. Instead of rather lifting the weight of sin, they are besetting the weight of sin and its consequences on people whenever they get it in their boney little head it's their job rather than the the holy spirit's job.
What happens when they don't get the results they expect? Why you're one of those "unrepentent sinners!" - and that's when you see their blood boil as they end up getting
at you and very OFFENDED!
Frankly speaking, I love offending legalistic and religious people. It doesn't bother me or offend me one little bit.
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JeffSjo
Hi WhatTheHey,
This is interesting, for me you become much easier to understand when you get a little riled. At least you sound a little riled and a little clearer to me.
"SOMETIMES THE LOVE OF GOD ISN'T A PAT ON THE BACK, IT'S A LITTLE LOWER AND A LITTLE HARDER"
When leaders sins are allowed to run unchecked, the results are much more devastating than when others sin. Feel free to quote me.
God's boot to the rear then becomes even harder.
"It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
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What The Hey
I wouldn't say I'm riled - rather I'm amuzed. I get very amuzed at all the bonehead preachers and legalistic and religious folk who have lately come out of the closet to educate us (ahem) and warn us against (terrify us) about the sins of VPW, etc. et al. They want to make sure you're very afraid of TWI and VPW, and that you stay far, far away.
Be very, very, careful and heed their advice because the way they see it - ol' Doc Vic is going to jump out of his grave, come back to life and rape your sister in Christ.
(Somebody's been a watchin' a way to many of them thar Hollywood horror flicks, me thinks!)
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JeffSjo
I am not amused, I am horrified by the people who have been hurt.
I am horrified that people were hurt and that families were ruined.
I am horrified that a ministry that started with the more abundant life ended up stealing, killing and destroying.
I am horrified at the future prospects of one who would willingly choose to mock some people who were hurt so bad that all they can taste of the meal of God's Word is dust and ashes.
I'm going to give them a break if it takes them some time (even if it's years) to come back to an even keel.
I'm going to do my best to hold on to the good and not kick the wounded.
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rascal
Jeff, I think that if folks like wth can make what happened seem acceptible. If they can make it seem like the people whom were mistreated are the ones in the wrong...like the once wounded are just big weenies that need to suck it up and get over it....it helps wth and those who participated in the destruction still feel ok about themselves....they don`t have to get honest about their responsibility.
One isn`t faced with the necessity of soul searching and making the necessary changes to become a genuine christian...they can safely hide behind their pious platitudes. They can safely throw rocks and indulge in hatefull behavior...their meanness all the while masked in scripture...
Twi religion makes this ok.
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What The Hey
Of course you will be horrified - if all you absorb are the horror stories. When I first saw The Exorcist back in the 70's I was completely "horrified" by it. After I saw the movie I still remember how I was even afraid to go to bed that night because I thought I might wake up in the morning being possessed and looking like "Regan".
But looking back on it today, even "The Exorcist" was a little bit wierd. In fact, a lot of the plot doesn't make sense and the laws of physics would have to be violated to make it even a remotely true story.
But as long as people insist on keeping these TWI horror stories fresh and alive in their mind and the mind of others today, instead of really going back - one can't really see what a crappy plot those stories are telling - much like "The Exorcist" story did.
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JeffSjo
I know what you mean Rascal.
Facing hard truths are difficult in a lot of things. I guess we all face it in different things at any given time.
Rightly divided scripture unmasks the hateful behavior.
THIS ISN'T A STUPID %$&*^ING MOVIE.
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