Pawtucket never said that our accounts need to be provable in a court of law in order to discuss them here. That is something that you have taken upon yourself, Dove.
You know Rascal I do believe Pawtucket does the best he can to post credible information and that he would like for us to as well. He does like people to include sources and respect copyrights and such. I have seen moderators delete things that were not factual. Sometime back I posted a article on the thread about the Way lawsuits over the name The Way that was written by VPW. There was interest in posting it on the front page archives. I was asked for the original article or a copy of it. I did not have an original only a reproduction from a book. Now I believe that to be an original article it has VP's writing style all over it. I don't as well think ,if it were not his someone would have gone to print with a book that would be in a public format if it were not his writing. But the decision was made that it lacked credibility without an original as proof . I understand that decision my opinion was not enough to make it factual. I'm sure that in the archives of the Way there is a copy of the Way Magazine it appeared in doubtful they will be of any help getting one. Someday I may find one but until such time my belief or opinion does not pass the test for a creditable source just because I say so or feel so. Proof was requested before something was established as factual which is all I have ever requested. Until I can find some it remains an article allegedly written by VPW. This is not my site and Pawtucket will decide what he does and does not allow on it . I'm fine with that, my experience is that he has been more than reasonable and fair in most situations.
Many grads I've talked to who refuse to make a second visit to this board cite an atmosphere of excessive negativity as their reason.
A number of people, seeing unflattering things said about vpw, for example,
will not ask "Can this be true?"
but will instead say "I have decided this will not be true, and I will leave rather than
permit myself to even consider it MIGHT be true."
They're entitled to never post, or to leave, if that's their decision.
I can take the atmosphere but, like you, White Dove, I prefer to look at the record of what was taped and printed over anecdotal information and feelings.
If there were a forum here where positive memories and constructive thoughts could be hammered out (without harassment) then maybe more grads would feel like coming here.
Harassment. Hah.
Tell you what.
This is the internet.
If you want a messageboard where your point of view is the pre-eminent one and you can set the tone,
you can do what everyone else does and make your OWN messageboard.
You can't tell Paw what to do with HIS messageboard.
(I could swear I've mentioned this a number of times before.
you can do what everyone else does and make your OWN messageboard.
You can't tell Paw what to do with HIS messageboard.
No, but he can express an opinion ...
If the main thrust here is to tell the other side, to whom is it being told?
If it is partly to those that are still in TWI, then making the main entrance less confrontational would make sense. I'm not in sales, but why not try to relate to the new person rather than blast them right off with how screwed up TWI is.
The current front page is all about slamming TWI ... which it may deserve, but assuming a large part of the effort here is to help the oppressed go free, then at least a modicum of cordiality might be prudent.
The goof on AOS is funny to us, but a short letter of intro, expressing commiseration with an innie's position, may help get them in the door, so to speak.
Welcome to GSC, many of us here spent a decade or more wholly dedicated to TWI convictions, and it was only with great deliberation and heavy hearts that we broke our affiliation with the organization that we had dedicated a large portion of our lives to building.
So while at this site you may see mostly the reasons we do not associate with TWI, please keep in mind that we also at one time shared fully in the hopes and dreams as we believed them to be of God, and we welcome the chance to share our thoughts with you.
When we remember our times in home fellowships and at the Rock of Ages, it evokes certain passions we had then. How could we forget our WOW experiences, or times in The Way Corps ... but most here were compelled to move on for a variety of reasons, which you will find ...
blah blah blah ....
Or it could be more directly from Pawtucket, on how this started, and then how "we" feel ...
There is a little of an intro in the "about us" portion, but I think something more inviting should be on the front page. It seems there should be at least a little attempt to relate and connect, rather than smacking them in the face first thing with the AOS frying pan ...
If this place is partly to help those that are in, get out, why not listen to what Mike says about how some innies feel when they come here? Making it less of an "us versus you" would be helpful, I think. Our common experiences would help tear down that wall.
many claim they have this ideal yet it can not be proven, God is alive and yet the evidence eludes many more.
If one wants to punish another of a crime we have a responsibilty to be honest to be truthful, and I do believe God has a huge hand in justice if truth is paramount.
does that mean every man who another thinks is guilty should be punished as they see ought?
no. Such is the killing fields of many inner city streets where to be a snitch is outside the rules of the common society. Where a four year can be shot because he stood at a bus stop with his dad, or a mom of three body is found in the middle of the day and no one knows how, or why she was shot in the head.
IN both these crimes not one person would speak to the police, the mayor asked for the no snitch policy to stop, apparently the safe guards are n place, but to no avail. WHY?
It may be fear fear of losing the same cummunity in which you live. You could be next.
people may not report a crime because they have problems, well then who are they to complain about the crime running rampant in the street?
it doesnt work both ways,accountability as a goal should be maintained by both the seeker and the sought, that is truth and justice.
Why do some neighborhood become victims of their own self and not another?
We have a curfew in my town, everyone off the street by ten o-clock, parents must be accountable to where those teens are tonite and every night, we enforce it by calling the police if a child or teen is standing on the street past 10. WE must be accountable to the neighborhood and the parents must be accoutable and the teen must be accountable.
less crime. But do you see the civil liberties broken? indeed and those are the victims that should live in those inner streets .
If it is partly to those that are still in TWI, then making the main entrance less confrontational would make sense. I'm not in sales, but why not try to relate to the new person rather than blast them right off with how screwed up TWI is.
The current front page is all about slamming TWI ... which it may deserve, but assuming a large part of the effort here is to help the oppressed go free, then at least a modicum of cordiality might be prudent.
The goof on AOS is funny to us, but a short letter of intro, expressing commiseration with an innie's position, may help get them in the door, so to speak.
Welcome to GSC, many of us here spent a decade or more wholly dedicated to TWI convictions, and it was only with great deliberation and heavy hearts that we broke our affiliation with the organization that we had dedicated a large portion of our lives to building.
So while at this site you may see mostly the reasons we do not associate with TWI, please keep in mind that we also at one time shared fully in the hopes and dreams as we believed them to be of God, and we welcome the chance to share our thoughts with you.
When we remember our times in home fellowships and at the Rock of Ages, it evokes certain passions we had then. How could we forget our WOW experiences, or times in The Way Corps ... but most here were compelled to move on for a variety of reasons, which you will find ...
blah blah blah ....
Or it could be more directly from Pawtucket, on how this started, and then how "we" feel ...
There is a little of an intro in the "about us" portion, but I think something more inviting should be on the front page. It seems there should be at least a little attempt to relate and connect, rather than smacking them in the face first thing with the AOS frying pan ...
Ok, I can easily see that.
(Without getting into it, that wasn't exactly what was meant. )
Pawtucket said that this sight is to tell the OTHER side of the story....not a tool to entice people into leaving twi.
So that`s too negative??? Sorry, but twi was a really negative place to be for some of us....None wish more than I, that this wasn`t so.
You don`t think ALL of us wish twi had been what we believed it to be???That we had not been able to spend our lives there in service to God , making a difference in the world today???
Start trying to cater to a select few whom might be encouraged to stay if things aren`t TOO negative would not really be honest. It stinks of hypocracy and agenda, and I`ll bet even twi ers would recognise it.
Geeze it reeks of the love bombings to keep the newbies around untill they could *handle* the more *spiritual* aspects of twi :(
Dove, if that is what you feel called to do, to have a web sight that isn`t too negative, because you believe that it will help people...maybe you need to start one, maybe that is what your calling is....rather than to try to force grease spot into the mold that you designe.
The REASON that this web sight by in large gets negative, is because of your non stop attacks on peoples integrity, character and honesty.
Leave folks alone to tell their story, and I will gaurantee that thos place will be a whole lot less negative. :)
I've shared with you all that I remember a lot of good things happening in my days with TWI. I've shared that I will choose to remember the grace of God as I saw it and experienced it. I still see the Grace of God in what I remember of TWI.
I also believe that there were some terrible mistakes made, often by folks that claimed that being held accountable for sin was simply being legalistic. I also believe that it grew a lot worse after I left TWI about 1990.
My opinion is that people were badly hurt even while I was an active participant in TWI but I never saw it.
I am completely ready to defend what I remember as the Grace of God in TWI instead of bad assumptions that lead to false accusations, but as there is an attitude of questioning reasonable people like RASCAL who are simply relating experiences that were not even close to good, I cannot mount an attempt to publically prove the Grace of God that I remember. I wish I could, but listening to certain people question the recollection and/ or the motives of reasonable people who were hurt seems to me to be the most grievous thing going on right now.
Why would anyone be willing to anyone talk about the good things when their recollection of certain events is called into question along with their motives? The unwillingness to handle abusive events is in itself the single biggest indication of "no credibility" that I can percieve going on here.
I think that if folks that were hurt were treated with respect that maybe they might be willing to listen to someone talk about the good things, but I don't blame them for not being willing to look past the sin when nobody is even willing to acknowledge the sin.
Pawtucket said that this sight is to tell the OTHER side of the story....not a tool to entice people into leaving twi.
So that`s too negative??? Sorry, but twi was a really negative place to be for some of us....None wish more than I, that this wasn`t so.
Actually, I don't think Pawtucket said what you just said ... I would say it IS a tool for people leaving TWI, whether you want to concentrate on being enticing or insulting is just a matter of approach. But Pawtucket can speak for himself ....
Here are a few Pawtucket approved quotes though, from the "About Us" page ....
We
welcome all
who have an interest in The Way International, including former followers, current followers, and those who may have friends or family members who are involved.
TWI is desperately trying to shield their followers from this information by warning them off the Internet. We think that if you
give this information an honest reading
, you'll see that you haven't been told the whole story.
Browse through our forums and read what people are saying about their experiences in TWI.
This sounds pretty welcoming to current TWI people. Perhaps you feel Mike and WD are wanting a lot more positive content, but I'm just saying it wouldn't hurt to put the more friendly welcome on the front page, since that seems to be the intent buried in the "about us" page. It can't see how it hurts to treat visitors more empathetically, instead of slapping them for being tools and fools.
Thanks JeffS. You are right on the money. When you relate your experiences, it usually isn`t accompanied with a back handed slap ....an insult or an in your face to anyone who didn`t share the idyllic experiences....When you talk about stuff, it isn`t to shout down and shut up people.
I can hear what you have to say because I can see the love of God in your words. That makes all of the difference in the world no matter which side of the issue you are on.
I can have respect for you as a christian, and as such, your opinion on christian matters will hold merit.
Thanks Rascal, I feel the same about you and your credibility too.
I definitely did cross the line and try to shut some folks up though, it's just that I'm honest about it and deal with that in a manner that's just as up-front as anything else that I'm trying to say.
Huh. I never thought of this site as having the goal of getting people out of TWI. How would that even work?
The TWI I left, in the late nineties, was vocal about the devil spirit influence on the net, just going there was a risk. It was very isolationist, all about the protection in the Household etc, and spiritual suspicion of all those on the outside.
Unthinking obedience was the goal--just do it. Any form of non like minded disagreement would be horribly shocking. Even in a marriage, there was a head, the wife was 'subject" therefore no disagreements allowed because it's the Word at stake etc. Children obeyed, no disagreements allowed, fellowship folk obeyed leadership, no disagreements allowed.
I know Innies have come upon this site, and it helped them get out. But I would say they were rare cases who still were able to take the huge risk of jumping into devil spiritville. Somehow, before even getting here, they were shocked out of the need to obey and conform.
IMO those still in, the older ones, not their kids, have shut down much of their independant thought and actions to conform to the demands of their doctrine.
Good point Rhino. I was mainly talking about Dove and Mike actively trying to block the *negative* aspects shared because that might frighten people away.
As far as what Pawtucket puts on the front page??? Who are we to second guess the choices? This place has been hugely successful to so many, many people in sorting out the lies. Twi has decreased from 25000 to less than 5000 in the 6 years or so since he opened the doors here. I have to feel like this web sight has played a large part in getting the information out...in exposing the lies.
I`d say that so far, it is a winning formula.
I think God prepares us for the exit..Maybe he leads folks here...if it isn`r what will help that person, he will lead them else wghere, no doubt....The fact remains that this place is a place for deliverance from the lies that enslave people and keep them trapped in twi.
One never knows what post will open the doors in someones understanding....which posters story will strike a chord...It is a tough tough thing to come to grips with...but I still think that God leads people here.
I still think that God works in the people that are here in their sharings.....to try to limit or control what is shared to what one personally deems (I am not talking about you rhino) appropriate or helpful is in my opinion, limiting God.
Rhino, I should have specified....provided a line of demarcation between what pawtucket said...and my thoughts that followed.
He said that this sight was to tell the other side of the story.....what followed were MY thoughts ...not a tool to entice people into leaving twi....You are absolutely correct ....pawtucket never said that...I just wasn`t clear in my punctuation...
I would never presume to speak for anyone but myself.
Ok...the way that I see this work is....(I may be completely off base here)
Dove shares his experiences and perspectives, and the path that he has been led since leaving....and someone reads and says WOW...I can identify with that...
Mike shares his experiences and perspective and somebody says ...*hey That makes sense to me*...
Rascal shares her experiences and thoughts on a matter and someone else sees that and says...*hey that happened to me too...I thought that I was the only one*
We share our lives and our thoughts, our perspectives post twi..and there it is for all to see...that God is good and that he doesn`t forsake you when you leave.
Each of us has the opportunity to share pieces of the puzzle of the over all picture of twi... How accurate is the picture going to be if certain people say....no no only MY pieces are important and constantly try to fling others from the table to prevent anyone from seeing any part of the picture, other than what they want them to see?
It is when people take it upon themselves to decide what is relevant or important, or when folks try to control others input, or denigrate the poster as unimportant, or that their particular path is the ONLY path .... that things become stifled and unpleasant.
My thoughts were not connected with the front page at all.
There are OTHERS, many others, who shy away from here because of that page and many other pages with it. I haven't shyed away at all.
My suggestion is that if there were a separate forum here where positive aspects of PFAL and the good doctrine that we were taught could be discussed without the usual "harassments," then that would be nice for me and some of those others who "faithfully" stay away from here.
By harassments, I mean endless distractions to anything positive about PFAL and constant focus on sex and plagiarisms and mental manipulations.
We discipline ourselves on the "In Memoriam" to not go into any negative things, and I suggest that there could be a separate forum here where only positive PFAL talk could happen. If other proPFAL people here would suggest this, then Pawtucket might consider it more than if I alone suggest it.
It is not hard at all to start a google group, yahoo group, forum etc. Very easy. Anyone with a computer access can do it. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from making a Happy TWI forum that would be found easily on TWI searches. Just put TWI in the title--TWI, Remembering the Good Times, for instance-- and google etc will pick it up.
Of course, you will have to moderate it.
Since no one actually goes to the point of doing that, I figure what they really want is to try to change GSC and the posters, to conform to their happy views. To shut some posters and views down, if they can. And since Paw moderates against shutting those negative posters down, they get frustrated. They after all, are the 'victims', trying to hold forth the greatness of theVPW/TWI Word and all that, in a negative environment.
This site is too negative? Yeah, sometimes we do focus on the negatives, but if we don't, who will? Other than John Juedes, who tells the other side? The only "other side" sites I have run into have been run by anti-cult types who often get basic facts wrong and are clearly pushing an "orthodox" agenda.
Do the pro-Wierwille, pro-PFAL people have a place here? Do those who wax nostalgic about "the good ol' days" contribute? In my opinion they do, if only to demonstrate that we are not afraid to admit that good things happened, good people were involved, and some of what was taught was good too.
So why is the general atmosphere sometimes perceived as negative? Because the positive side of TWI, Wierwille and PFAL is portrayed very effectively by TWI itself, and to a lesser extent in some offshoots. The "good" has many outlets, many places were it is trumpeted, not so "the other side". While on Grease Spot Mike can extol the virtues of getting back to PFAL, Jonny Lingo remember his fun in the Corps and White Dove can hector us about the difference between "TRUTH" and opinion, when you go to the TWI site, Family Tables, the new Way Corps reunion site or any other that lean toward the "positive", nothing critical is even allowed.
My suggestion is that if there were a separate forum here where positive aspects of PFAL and the good doctrine that we were taught could be discussed without the usual "harassments," then that would be nice for me and some of those others who "faithfully" stay away from here.
By harassments, I mean endless distractions to anything positive about PFAL and constant focus on sex and plagiarisms and mental manipulations.
Maybe we could also have a separate forum where negative aspects of PFAL and the bad doctrine that we were taught could be discussed without the usual "harassments," then that would be nice for some of those others who "faithfully" stay away from here.
By harassments, I mean endless distractions to anything negative about PFAL and constant focus on debunking sex and plagiarisms and mental manipulations.
As far as what Pawtucket puts on the front page??? Who are we to second guess the choices?
It is just an opinion ... and with all the talk about being civil, I thought I'd throw it out the idea of being more civil to TWIts would fit in.
Rascal you do seem to feel this place is ordained of god at times, with the talk of God leading people here, and leading people to post things, and who am I to question the man of God Pawtucket. ... That seems a little TWI like to me.
I don't think there needs to be a forum for only postiive things about PFAL .. there is no section for only negative things ... people can respectfully voice a counter opinion, but the intent to derail or harass is now judged more closely, it appears.
Anyway, this is a discussion ... so it is discussed ...
It was a rhetorical question, not one directed at you Rhino. In my opinion....I think he had the vision, he has guided the place, it has been successful, who am I to come in at the 11th hour and critisize and complain, think that I know how it should be run?
Kind of ugly to read into it that I was implying that pawtucket was some kind of mog....who`s opinions and ideas are unbroachable (is that a word?) that this is twi ish....or that you couldn`t pm him with your ideas...shrug
... it has been successful, who am I to come in at the 11th hour and critisize and complain, think that I know how it should be run?
Kind of ugly to read into it that I was implying that pawtucket was some kind of mog....who`s opinions and ideas are unbroachable (is that a word?) that this is twi ish....or that you couldn`t pm him with your ideas...shrug
In my opinion, it is simply a courtesy issue.
Well I haven't read all 1000 posts, but wanted to see what the commotion was about. I read Mike making suggestions, and WD, and WW and you ... about what should be on the site, so I put in a comment about something I think is middle ground between what you guys are arguing, and you think I should do it in a PM? With the comment "who are we to disagree ..."
I don't think it was very critical, just an idea. I sense some defensiveness ... and I'm just comparing it to the mog attitude ... defending "your" turf. It sure feels to me like the less than civil environment.
Rhino, I am sorry, you seem to be sensing defensiveness and defending turf that just wasn`t my my intention at all. I feel like you are reading animosity in my posts.
I know that it is my lack in communication skills, and it seems like the harder I try to clarify, the more you read aggression.
My thoughts were not connected with the front page at all.
There are OTHERS, many others, who shy away from here because of that page and many other pages with it. I haven't shyed away at all.
My suggestion is that if there were a separate forum here where positive aspects of PFAL and the good doctrine that we were taught could be discussed without the usual "harassments," then that would be nice for me and some of those others who "faithfully" stay away from here.
By harassments, I mean endless distractions to anything positive about PFAL and constant focus on sex and plagiarisms and mental manipulations.
We discipline ourselves on the "In Memoriam" to not go into any negative things, and I suggest that there could be a separate forum here where only positive PFAL talk could happen. If other proPFAL people here would suggest this, then Pawtucket might consider it more than if I alone suggest it.
Hi, Mike
Nice to see you again.
Perhaps you were out of the room at the time, but a while back I started a thread(Not a forum, granted, but at least a thread.) which invited people to share real examples of how they had used the law of believing to exact tangible results in their lives and show the connection. Given how important we were led to believe this law was, you would think there would be a string of posts as long as the Great Wall Of China. The thread, however, died a quick death.
I'll have to see if I can find it and bring it back.
I think the very nature of the subject invites positive response.
Maybe I'm wrong.
At any rate, if, indeed, this "law" is real, there should be no shortage of positive posts appearing.
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You know Rascal I do believe Pawtucket does the best he can to post credible information and that he would like for us to as well. He does like people to include sources and respect copyrights and such. I have seen moderators delete things that were not factual. Sometime back I posted a article on the thread about the Way lawsuits over the name The Way that was written by VPW. There was interest in posting it on the front page archives. I was asked for the original article or a copy of it. I did not have an original only a reproduction from a book. Now I believe that to be an original article it has VP's writing style all over it. I don't as well think ,if it were not his someone would have gone to print with a book that would be in a public format if it were not his writing. But the decision was made that it lacked credibility without an original as proof . I understand that decision my opinion was not enough to make it factual. I'm sure that in the archives of the Way there is a copy of the Way Magazine it appeared in doubtful they will be of any help getting one. Someday I may find one but until such time my belief or opinion does not pass the test for a creditable source just because I say so or feel so. Proof was requested before something was established as factual which is all I have ever requested. Until I can find some it remains an article allegedly written by VPW. This is not my site and Pawtucket will decide what he does and does not allow on it . I'm fine with that, my experience is that he has been more than reasonable and fair in most situations.
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WordWolf
A number of people, seeing unflattering things said about vpw, for example,
will not ask "Can this be true?"
but will instead say "I have decided this will not be true, and I will leave rather than
permit myself to even consider it MIGHT be true."
They're entitled to never post, or to leave, if that's their decision.
Harassment. Hah.
Tell you what.
This is the internet.
If you want a messageboard where your point of view is the pre-eminent one and you can set the tone,
you can do what everyone else does and make your OWN messageboard.
You can't tell Paw what to do with HIS messageboard.
(I could swear I've mentioned this a number of times before.
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rhino
No, but he can express an opinion ...
If the main thrust here is to tell the other side, to whom is it being told?
If it is partly to those that are still in TWI, then making the main entrance less confrontational would make sense. I'm not in sales, but why not try to relate to the new person rather than blast them right off with how screwed up TWI is.
The current front page is all about slamming TWI ... which it may deserve, but assuming a large part of the effort here is to help the oppressed go free, then at least a modicum of cordiality might be prudent.
The goof on AOS is funny to us, but a short letter of intro, expressing commiseration with an innie's position, may help get them in the door, so to speak.
Or it could be more directly from Pawtucket, on how this started, and then how "we" feel ...
There is a little of an intro in the "about us" portion, but I think something more inviting should be on the front page. It seems there should be at least a little attempt to relate and connect, rather than smacking them in the face first thing with the AOS frying pan ...
If this place is partly to help those that are in, get out, why not listen to what Mike says about how some innies feel when they come here? Making it less of an "us versus you" would be helpful, I think. Our common experiences would help tear down that wall.
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pond
Where is the evidence of faith?
many claim they have this ideal yet it can not be proven, God is alive and yet the evidence eludes many more.
If one wants to punish another of a crime we have a responsibilty to be honest to be truthful, and I do believe God has a huge hand in justice if truth is paramount.
does that mean every man who another thinks is guilty should be punished as they see ought?
no. Such is the killing fields of many inner city streets where to be a snitch is outside the rules of the common society. Where a four year can be shot because he stood at a bus stop with his dad, or a mom of three body is found in the middle of the day and no one knows how, or why she was shot in the head.
IN both these crimes not one person would speak to the police, the mayor asked for the no snitch policy to stop, apparently the safe guards are n place, but to no avail. WHY?
It may be fear fear of losing the same cummunity in which you live. You could be next.
people may not report a crime because they have problems, well then who are they to complain about the crime running rampant in the street?
it doesnt work both ways,accountability as a goal should be maintained by both the seeker and the sought, that is truth and justice.
Why do some neighborhood become victims of their own self and not another?
We have a curfew in my town, everyone off the street by ten o-clock, parents must be accountable to where those teens are tonite and every night, we enforce it by calling the police if a child or teen is standing on the street past 10. WE must be accountable to the neighborhood and the parents must be accoutable and the teen must be accountable.
less crime. But do you see the civil liberties broken? indeed and those are the victims that should live in those inner streets .
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WordWolf
Ok, I can easily see that.
(Without getting into it, that wasn't exactly what was meant. )
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rascal
Pawtucket said that this sight is to tell the OTHER side of the story....not a tool to entice people into leaving twi.
So that`s too negative??? Sorry, but twi was a really negative place to be for some of us....None wish more than I, that this wasn`t so.
You don`t think ALL of us wish twi had been what we believed it to be???That we had not been able to spend our lives there in service to God , making a difference in the world today???
Start trying to cater to a select few whom might be encouraged to stay if things aren`t TOO negative would not really be honest. It stinks of hypocracy and agenda, and I`ll bet even twi ers would recognise it.
Geeze it reeks of the love bombings to keep the newbies around untill they could *handle* the more *spiritual* aspects of twi :(
Dove, if that is what you feel called to do, to have a web sight that isn`t too negative, because you believe that it will help people...maybe you need to start one, maybe that is what your calling is....rather than to try to force grease spot into the mold that you designe.
The REASON that this web sight by in large gets negative, is because of your non stop attacks on peoples integrity, character and honesty.
Leave folks alone to tell their story, and I will gaurantee that thos place will be a whole lot less negative. :)
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WordWolf
Unless someone defines "negative" as "what I don't want to hear", in which case, they've redefined it so they'll
be disappointed, or everyone else must be silenced.
But I DO think that if someone wants to make up a NEW discussion board and/or website with their goal as
"positive talk about twi" or something, they can go ahead and do it.
Then they can determine how things go there.
Happens all the time, all over the internet. Someone perceives a need, and makes a website or messageboard.
Hey-someone did that for the corps, and that board, from what I hear, is doing fine and some people like it.
So, there's recent precedent.
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JeffSjo
I've shared with you all that I remember a lot of good things happening in my days with TWI. I've shared that I will choose to remember the grace of God as I saw it and experienced it. I still see the Grace of God in what I remember of TWI.
I also believe that there were some terrible mistakes made, often by folks that claimed that being held accountable for sin was simply being legalistic. I also believe that it grew a lot worse after I left TWI about 1990.
My opinion is that people were badly hurt even while I was an active participant in TWI but I never saw it.
I am completely ready to defend what I remember as the Grace of God in TWI instead of bad assumptions that lead to false accusations, but as there is an attitude of questioning reasonable people like RASCAL who are simply relating experiences that were not even close to good, I cannot mount an attempt to publically prove the Grace of God that I remember. I wish I could, but listening to certain people question the recollection and/ or the motives of reasonable people who were hurt seems to me to be the most grievous thing going on right now.
Why would anyone be willing to anyone talk about the good things when their recollection of certain events is called into question along with their motives? The unwillingness to handle abusive events is in itself the single biggest indication of "no credibility" that I can percieve going on here.
I think that if folks that were hurt were treated with respect that maybe they might be willing to listen to someone talk about the good things, but I don't blame them for not being willing to look past the sin when nobody is even willing to acknowledge the sin.
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rhino
Actually, I don't think Pawtucket said what you just said ... I would say it IS a tool for people leaving TWI, whether you want to concentrate on being enticing or insulting is just a matter of approach. But Pawtucket can speak for himself ....
Here are a few Pawtucket approved quotes though, from the "About Us" page ....
This sounds pretty welcoming to current TWI people. Perhaps you feel Mike and WD are wanting a lot more positive content, but I'm just saying it wouldn't hurt to put the more friendly welcome on the front page, since that seems to be the intent buried in the "about us" page. It can't see how it hurts to treat visitors more empathetically, instead of slapping them for being tools and fools.
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rascal
Thanks JeffS. You are right on the money. When you relate your experiences, it usually isn`t accompanied with a back handed slap ....an insult or an in your face to anyone who didn`t share the idyllic experiences....When you talk about stuff, it isn`t to shout down and shut up people.
I can hear what you have to say because I can see the love of God in your words. That makes all of the difference in the world no matter which side of the issue you are on.
I can have respect for you as a christian, and as such, your opinion on christian matters will hold merit.
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JeffSjo
Thanks Rascal, I feel the same about you and your credibility too.
I definitely did cross the line and try to shut some folks up though, it's just that I'm honest about it and deal with that in a manner that's just as up-front as anything else that I'm trying to say.
That name on my avatar is my real name too.
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Bramble
Huh. I never thought of this site as having the goal of getting people out of TWI. How would that even work?
The TWI I left, in the late nineties, was vocal about the devil spirit influence on the net, just going there was a risk. It was very isolationist, all about the protection in the Household etc, and spiritual suspicion of all those on the outside.
Unthinking obedience was the goal--just do it. Any form of non like minded disagreement would be horribly shocking. Even in a marriage, there was a head, the wife was 'subject" therefore no disagreements allowed because it's the Word at stake etc. Children obeyed, no disagreements allowed, fellowship folk obeyed leadership, no disagreements allowed.
I know Innies have come upon this site, and it helped them get out. But I would say they were rare cases who still were able to take the huge risk of jumping into devil spiritville. Somehow, before even getting here, they were shocked out of the need to obey and conform.
IMO those still in, the older ones, not their kids, have shut down much of their independant thought and actions to conform to the demands of their doctrine.
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rascal
Good point Rhino. I was mainly talking about Dove and Mike actively trying to block the *negative* aspects shared because that might frighten people away.
As far as what Pawtucket puts on the front page??? Who are we to second guess the choices? This place has been hugely successful to so many, many people in sorting out the lies. Twi has decreased from 25000 to less than 5000 in the 6 years or so since he opened the doors here. I have to feel like this web sight has played a large part in getting the information out...in exposing the lies.
I`d say that so far, it is a winning formula.
I think God prepares us for the exit..Maybe he leads folks here...if it isn`r what will help that person, he will lead them else wghere, no doubt....The fact remains that this place is a place for deliverance from the lies that enslave people and keep them trapped in twi.
One never knows what post will open the doors in someones understanding....which posters story will strike a chord...It is a tough tough thing to come to grips with...but I still think that God leads people here.
I still think that God works in the people that are here in their sharings.....to try to limit or control what is shared to what one personally deems (I am not talking about you rhino) appropriate or helpful is in my opinion, limiting God.
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JeffSjo
I think that independent thought is much more important than simple obedience in the long run.
Teach em to fish: not just here, eat this or else!!!
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rascal
Rhino, I should have specified....provided a line of demarcation between what pawtucket said...and my thoughts that followed.
He said that this sight was to tell the other side of the story.....what followed were MY thoughts ...not a tool to entice people into leaving twi....You are absolutely correct ....pawtucket never said that...I just wasn`t clear in my punctuation...
I would never presume to speak for anyone but myself.
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rascal
Ok...the way that I see this work is....(I may be completely off base here)
Dove shares his experiences and perspectives, and the path that he has been led since leaving....and someone reads and says WOW...I can identify with that...
Mike shares his experiences and perspective and somebody says ...*hey That makes sense to me*...
Rascal shares her experiences and thoughts on a matter and someone else sees that and says...*hey that happened to me too...I thought that I was the only one*
We share our lives and our thoughts, our perspectives post twi..and there it is for all to see...that God is good and that he doesn`t forsake you when you leave.
Each of us has the opportunity to share pieces of the puzzle of the over all picture of twi... How accurate is the picture going to be if certain people say....no no only MY pieces are important and constantly try to fling others from the table to prevent anyone from seeing any part of the picture, other than what they want them to see?
It is when people take it upon themselves to decide what is relevant or important, or when folks try to control others input, or denigrate the poster as unimportant, or that their particular path is the ONLY path .... that things become stifled and unpleasant.
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Mike
My thoughts were not connected with the front page at all.
There are OTHERS, many others, who shy away from here because of that page and many other pages with it. I haven't shyed away at all.
My suggestion is that if there were a separate forum here where positive aspects of PFAL and the good doctrine that we were taught could be discussed without the usual "harassments," then that would be nice for me and some of those others who "faithfully" stay away from here.
By harassments, I mean endless distractions to anything positive about PFAL and constant focus on sex and plagiarisms and mental manipulations.
We discipline ourselves on the "In Memoriam" to not go into any negative things, and I suggest that there could be a separate forum here where only positive PFAL talk could happen. If other proPFAL people here would suggest this, then Pawtucket might consider it more than if I alone suggest it.
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Bramble
It is not hard at all to start a google group, yahoo group, forum etc. Very easy. Anyone with a computer access can do it. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from making a Happy TWI forum that would be found easily on TWI searches. Just put TWI in the title--TWI, Remembering the Good Times, for instance-- and google etc will pick it up.
Of course, you will have to moderate it.
Since no one actually goes to the point of doing that, I figure what they really want is to try to change GSC and the posters, to conform to their happy views. To shut some posters and views down, if they can. And since Paw moderates against shutting those negative posters down, they get frustrated. They after all, are the 'victims', trying to hold forth the greatness of theVPW/TWI Word and all that, in a negative environment.
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Oakspear
This site is too negative? Yeah, sometimes we do focus on the negatives, but if we don't, who will? Other than John Juedes, who tells the other side? The only "other side" sites I have run into have been run by anti-cult types who often get basic facts wrong and are clearly pushing an "orthodox" agenda.
Do the pro-Wierwille, pro-PFAL people have a place here? Do those who wax nostalgic about "the good ol' days" contribute? In my opinion they do, if only to demonstrate that we are not afraid to admit that good things happened, good people were involved, and some of what was taught was good too.
So why is the general atmosphere sometimes perceived as negative? Because the positive side of TWI, Wierwille and PFAL is portrayed very effectively by TWI itself, and to a lesser extent in some offshoots. The "good" has many outlets, many places were it is trumpeted, not so "the other side". While on Grease Spot Mike can extol the virtues of getting back to PFAL, Jonny Lingo remember his fun in the Corps and White Dove can hector us about the difference between "TRUTH" and opinion, when you go to the TWI site, Family Tables, the new Way Corps reunion site or any other that lean toward the "positive", nothing critical is even allowed.
Maybe we could also have a separate forum where negative aspects of PFAL and the bad doctrine that we were taught could be discussed without the usual "harassments," then that would be nice for some of those others who "faithfully" stay away from here.By harassments, I mean endless distractions to anything negative about PFAL and constant focus on debunking sex and plagiarisms and mental manipulations.
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rhino
It is just an opinion ... and with all the talk about being civil, I thought I'd throw it out the idea of being more civil to TWIts would fit in.
Rascal you do seem to feel this place is ordained of god at times, with the talk of God leading people here, and leading people to post things, and who am I to question the man of God Pawtucket. ... That seems a little TWI like to me.
I don't think there needs to be a forum for only postiive things about PFAL .. there is no section for only negative things ... people can respectfully voice a counter opinion, but the intent to derail or harass is now judged more closely, it appears.
Anyway, this is a discussion ... so it is discussed ...
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rascal
It was a rhetorical question, not one directed at you Rhino. In my opinion....I think he had the vision, he has guided the place, it has been successful, who am I to come in at the 11th hour and critisize and complain, think that I know how it should be run?
Kind of ugly to read into it that I was implying that pawtucket was some kind of mog....who`s opinions and ideas are unbroachable (is that a word?) that this is twi ish....or that you couldn`t pm him with your ideas...shrug
In my opinion, it is simply a courtesy issue.
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rhino
I don't think it was very critical, just an idea. I sense some defensiveness ... and I'm just comparing it to the mog attitude ... defending "your" turf. It sure feels to me like the less than civil environment.
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rascal
Rhino, I am sorry, you seem to be sensing defensiveness and defending turf that just wasn`t my my intention at all. I feel like you are reading animosity in my posts.
I know that it is my lack in communication skills, and it seems like the harder I try to clarify, the more you read aggression.
I`ll try to do better.
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waysider
Hi, Mike
Nice to see you again.
Perhaps you were out of the room at the time, but a while back I started a thread(Not a forum, granted, but at least a thread.) which invited people to share real examples of how they had used the law of believing to exact tangible results in their lives and show the connection. Given how important we were led to believe this law was, you would think there would be a string of posts as long as the Great Wall Of China. The thread, however, died a quick death.
I'll have to see if I can find it and bring it back.
I think the very nature of the subject invites positive response.
Maybe I'm wrong.
At any rate, if, indeed, this "law" is real, there should be no shortage of positive posts appearing.
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