Though I have nothing new to add, I must say that this thread made me cry. It's healing for me to be able to read how other people overcame TWI and can actually joke about it. I love that! I have often wondered what I would do if someone who hurt me from TWI showed up on here. I guess it would depend on who it was and what they had done. I can't honestly say I wouldn't want to tell that person what I thought of them, but I think there are only a few I'd feel that way about. Most of them I feel the utmost pity for. Not as much though as their victims. I guess it was Roy who ultimately got me to cry. But, I can't help but wonder who johniam or wth really are? I may never know, but johniam should know that Danny has a wife and she just might believe in clocking someone ugly to her man!
Having left TWI close to 20 years ago, I did not get involved in the cruel sorts of things that have been described here.
I wasn't even aware of much of this until I came to GSC.
We were young, idealistic and out to save the world, so to speak, back in the 1970s.
By the 1980s, I was drifting with the tide until, finally, in about 1990 I found myself having drifted out to sea.
Still, I'm sure I did damage by teaching the stupid "Law" of believing and other damaging doctrines and by bringing people into the ministry.
I never did anything out of malice or self promotion.(as far as I know)
I really believed that what I was doing was helping people.
I think there are probably countless others here who share that sentiment.
There are a few people here at GSC who knew me back in the "real time" days of TWI and know who I am.
If I somehow hurt those people, I would welcome the opportunity to say I'm sorry.
But, the concept of sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it never happened is not something I can find myself agreeing with.
WS: Amen, bro. I too left around 20 years ago and am just hearing some of this stuff. We (my husband and I) were on staff at HQ in 79-80. He was aware of lots of bull even back then. I took the class in '71, so know where you are coming from. Many of us were sincere, hardworking people who loved God and wanted to do what we thought was right. Yes, I, too, taught stuff that I realized later was way wrong, but did try to talk with people I felt responsible for/to. I'm sure there were others I never got to. I didn't drift away, I walked away with my eyes wide open after what my husband and I thought was the most ridiculous thing we ever heard (Geer's manifesto). I often wonder what ever happened to our generation, not just lost believers. Sure we were idealistic, but not all of us sold out, so how come the world is in such a mess today? Anyway, we had no one to complain to. When we walked we had to start our lives from scratch. Yes, I know, I'm ! Anyway, just wanted to bond with ya some.
To whom it may concern: John has been suspended from posting until Dec. 10. He definitely wishes to answer the shower of responses to his last post, but you'll just have to wait. Thanx.
I hope time helps him think before he speaks to fast next time
I have had a lot of odd friends over the years
A hate crime murder friend that I talk too who had share one thing about life in Prison taught me alot
Prison or time off only gives a person "time to think" some use it wisely others do not
Whether my friend changed I do not know I only hope so
he told me he was just doing what was in at the time around his friends the year of 1960 but after the person tried so hard to get to his family house only to die at his front door set a picture in his head that he could not get out of his mind
we work together for a real good black friend of many years who took me to a church were the message was rapped
Now I still think of my black friend Cliff alot but the murder friend I only pray he has really changed every blue moon or so
Dear sweet Roy, thank you so much for sharing your story. I have always thought you have a wonderful heart, and we have had some great discussions where we disagreed, but it was still fun.
I don't think anyone has to take anything off anyone - but John could have thought of a better, more thoughtful come back that wouldn't have gotten him temp-banned.
To whom it may concern: John has been suspended from posting until Dec. 10. He definitely wishes to answer the shower of responses to his last post, but you'll just have to wait. Thanx.
Thanks Jeaniam. Tell Johniam I said hi. :)
As I see this, John responded with vulgarity to a personal attack by Danny:
Yea John have you clocked any women today.
Lets see Monday morning oldies should be around soon.
They tend to stick in packs. Wolves
John
How long will it take for you to log into another
name and say Jeaniam - How many times I have
to tell you John has never hit me. ?
WTH you know you half way have a good point.
You would get a lot more traction if for once you
and the pack would say How can I help you?
What can I do to help you get over the pain?
Can we pray together? What will it take for me
to see this though your eyes and help you heal?
No thanks no church with you as your idol said.
It was bait.
Danny's bait was offensive and personal. He first asks whether John hit any woman today. Then he calls us (John and me) wolves that tend to stick in packs. Danny then accuses John of deception by logging on as Jean. Then he accuses WTH of having an idol.
John responded with anger and vulgarity, falling for the bait. But, John's response was no less offensive and disparaging than Danny's bait.
Danny gets away with it. John gets banned.
I guess its ok for posters to engage in personal attacks, as long as one isn't vulgar about it?? :huh:
John can speak for himself when he returns. But John doesn't need to clear his good name, say nice words, share how he blew it. He doesn't even need to be prayed for about this.
All he needs to remember (as we all do) is quit engaging in personal attacks.
Crude, maybe, but IMO there is no excuse for behaving the way Danny does.
Jean...
I see a lot of "stuff" on these boards. Lots of fighting and insults. Lots of hand-holding and comforting. I see it because the nature of this medium is that it is fairly permanent. The mods can remove rude or inappropriate comments - but usually by that time the damage has been done and enough people have seen the offense to make an impact.
Back a few months ago, Oldies made a comment regarding how he believed men really felt about young women. I made a comment that set off a demand for an apology. (John was amongst the demanders.) I apologized. John needs to do the same. I saw no reason for OM to have behaved the way he did, but that was beside the point. I had to take responsibility for my words and make clear that I didn't mean to implicate OM in certain unsavory behaviours.
It really doesn't matter how John feels about Danny. What matters is John's personal integrity. We have a certain level of control here on the boards that we don't have in real life. We have those nifty "Delete" and "Edit" buttons. We get to re-think our responses and keep them from speaking even when we aren't looking.
John unfortunately gave everyone a bunch of fuel when he made that initial "clocking" post. He is seeing the consequences of that. You may not like that it misrepresents him (as you and he say,) but he put it out there and it became fodder for the masses. If it gets repeated...well, it could never have gotten repeated had it never been allowed to see the light of day. John apparently believed in his statement enough to allow it to stay on the boards.
OM - I get where you are coming from - but we always have to show some restraint. I've been a part of so many forums and I've seen baiting before. I knew before Danny said he was baiting John - that he was baiting him.
I might not think John is the best person in the world - but I don't think he had to take what Danny was saying to him sitting down. I don't think anyone should have to take a personal attack on their character with silence or appology. However, he could have handled it better. He could have built himself up, he could have demanded an appology from Danny for saying that. I dunno - anything but what he said. All he did was lower people's opinion of him again.
This is just my opinion - but I don't think Danny was assassinating John's character - I think he's done a great job of doing himself in already.
It was John who proudly said a woman needs a clocking.
Danny was merely repeating what he said. Sometimes words come back to haunt us.
No matter though, who was right or wrong, the response was way overboard.
I think, from Jeans post, its pretty obvious that John will come back with righteous indignation, reflect any blame away from him, it wasn't his fault and Danny shouldn't have started it, he started it first, nyah, nyah...
It will be interesting to see, will John man-up and acknowledge what he said was wrong, and take some personal responsibility - or not. Or will it be someone else's fault?
But, John's response was no less offensive and disparaging than Danny's bait.
Danny gets away with it. John gets banned.
I guess its ok for posters to engage in personal attacks, as long as one isn't vulgar about it?? :huh:
John can speak for himself when he returns. But John doesn't need to clear his good name, say nice words, share how he blew it. He doesn't even need to be prayed for about this.
All he needs to remember (as we all do) is quit engaging in personal attacks.
John's response WAS more offensive and disparaging. Did you see it?! Apparently, it IS okay to say what you feel, just without getting vulgar. The line is drawn at that. Like it or lump it. If you don't like it, leave. I'll be real curious come December 10. I'm curious as to what good name you are talking about, also. And John doesn't need to say nice words, either? He doesn't need to be prayed for, though he thinks he's above the rules? Excuse me, but I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what a personal attack is versus an opinion. People have a right to their opinions. On GS those opinions need to be kept clean.
There are certain behaviors human beings have that other human beings can't deal with. I happen to know Danny personally. He is incapable of understanding how someone could hit a woman, or think that behavior is okay. You have said stuff that is beyond his understanding, also. I am not trying to fight his battles, he's quite capable of doing that. I am just trying to perhaps show you the other side of the coin. For the most part, a lot of the people who post here have suffered atrocities at the hands of people in TWI. When someone comes along defending the people who used them and/or abused them, it is a hard pill to swallow. It's a relief to be able to share feelings with people who have gone through similar things and it's a comfort to know you aren't the only one who feels that way. Seems you and John and WTH are the ones trying to make others feel badly or ashamed for saying and or feeling the way they do because you find no faults, at least that you admit to, with what went on. If anything, OM, you are the ones who bait others. Seems you dare someone to fight back. Unfortunately, I don't think you picked your battles too well. If you think your little minority is going to change someone's mind, I think you are wasting your time. I can't speak for everyone, but no one could convince me that God didn't mean no adultery when he wrote the 10 commandments, except it was okay for VP. Anyway, that's it. There's a day to day side to people no one sees on a board. Today is Danny's birthday. He took the day off work to be on the road 8 hours driving to attend a funeral for his brother in law's mother. It probably wouldn't have mattered one bit and would have been totally understood had he not shown up, but that's not the kind of guy he is.
John's response WAS more offensive and disparaging. Did you see it?! Apparently, it IS okay to say what you feel, just without getting vulgar. The line is drawn at that.
Irisheyes,
I have to disagree with you there because the forum page states the following:
These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
The moderators can't catch every personal insult, and all personal attacks are not complained about. But it still doesn't make it right.
The guideline is: please don't make it personal.
Posters should be able (or at least willing) to make points and share opinions, without going off on personal or judgmental attacks against a poster they may disagree strongly with. It can be hard and sometimes takes a lot of work. But it is possible.
It took me a while to fully understand this as I've been guilty of personal attacks in the past myself. But I've come to realize that making it personal only obscures the points and opinions expressed. There is no need to get personal -- its totally unnecessary.
I'm trying to elevate the discussion so from this point forward, all personal attacks against me are going to be reported to the moderators. That is the way I'll handle it and see what happens.
Maybe it will help some folks tackle the issue rather than the poster.
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doojable
Roy - never stop speaking or writing! The only thing that matters is that anyone that reads or hears you can feel the love that just pours out of you.
Keep on loving the way you do - it's contagious.
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irisheyes
Though I have nothing new to add, I must say that this thread made me cry. It's healing for me to be able to read how other people overcame TWI and can actually joke about it. I love that! I have often wondered what I would do if someone who hurt me from TWI showed up on here. I guess it would depend on who it was and what they had done. I can't honestly say I wouldn't want to tell that person what I thought of them, but I think there are only a few I'd feel that way about. Most of them I feel the utmost pity for. Not as much though as their victims. I guess it was Roy who ultimately got me to cry. But, I can't help but wonder who johniam or wth really are? I may never know, but johniam should know that Danny has a wife and she just might believe in clocking someone ugly to her man!
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year2027
God first
Beloved doojable and irisheyes
God loves you my dear friends
yes I will never stop because it what kepts me going
I love yall all more than words can write
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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waysider
Having left TWI close to 20 years ago, I did not get involved in the cruel sorts of things that have been described here.
I wasn't even aware of much of this until I came to GSC.
We were young, idealistic and out to save the world, so to speak, back in the 1970s.
By the 1980s, I was drifting with the tide until, finally, in about 1990 I found myself having drifted out to sea.
Still, I'm sure I did damage by teaching the stupid "Law" of believing and other damaging doctrines and by bringing people into the ministry.
I never did anything out of malice or self promotion.(as far as I know)
I really believed that what I was doing was helping people.
I think there are probably countless others here who share that sentiment.
There are a few people here at GSC who knew me back in the "real time" days of TWI and know who I am.
If I somehow hurt those people, I would welcome the opportunity to say I'm sorry.
But, the concept of sweeping it under the carpet and pretending it never happened is not something I can find myself agreeing with.
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irisheyes
WS: Amen, bro. I too left around 20 years ago and am just hearing some of this stuff. We (my husband and I) were on staff at HQ in 79-80. He was aware of lots of bull even back then. I took the class in '71, so know where you are coming from. Many of us were sincere, hardworking people who loved God and wanted to do what we thought was right. Yes, I, too, taught stuff that I realized later was way wrong, but did try to talk with people I felt responsible for/to. I'm sure there were others I never got to. I didn't drift away, I walked away with my eyes wide open after what my husband and I thought was the most ridiculous thing we ever heard (Geer's manifesto). I often wonder what ever happened to our generation, not just lost believers. Sure we were idealistic, but not all of us sold out, so how come the world is in such a mess today? Anyway, we had no one to complain to. When we walked we had to start our lives from scratch. Yes, I know, I'm
! Anyway, just wanted to bond with ya some. 
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Danny
Thanks all who came to my aid.
I think he gave a very good answer in light of this tread.
Crude offensive or voice of offence.
Creditability. The reason I responed to him was his lack of.
It was bait. I think I got a answer not quite what I exspected
but an answer never the less.
If you are going to point your finger at us poor souls that cry
so much about the bad ole twi maybe it better be a clean finger.
Fruit of something. Love that longsuffering and the others that was showen.
John you need some help dude. Let me say the best time to get healing from a mistake is to go before God
Almighty and ask for forgiveness. He promisess to give it. To get it from man you have to do the same.
The biggest time of healings in my life is when I make the biggest mistakes.
If you think that was in God's favor you have been blinded.
I will pray for you and yours. I have prayed for you before.
No I don't have the answers for your life. God can open the eyes of your understanding
if you ask. But if you stay on your road that you are on it will just get more
bummpy and curvy. Sorry that you are so angry and above me.
Roy What can I say my dear friend.
God loves you.
Thanks for opening your soul for all to see.
I cry at some of the heart aches you have gone through.
I ask for you to forgive me.
The first few post you made a few years ago I did
not take time to see your heart.
A heart of gold. One that loves God in you special way.
And one that loves people.
My lack of understanding made me judge you.
I was dead wrong. I'm sorry.
One day we will stand side by side and laugh at this ole life here.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Danny
God loves you my dear friend
Danny I love you like a blood brother
you have blessed my heart time and time again and anything of past has moved further away then east is from west or was that west from east
yes we can laught now because we are part of the big Grease Spot Cafe Family with Patucket dress as Santa Clause given us treads to write
so sat down and get a cup of beer as we sing together at that old Way tree as we tear off all its false lights
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Jeaniam
To whom it may concern: John has been suspended from posting until Dec. 10. He definitely wishes to answer the shower of responses to his last post, but you'll just have to wait. Thanx.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Jeaniam
God loves you my dear friend
I hope time helps him think before he speaks to fast next time
I have had a lot of odd friends over the years
A hate crime murder friend that I talk too who had share one thing about life in Prison taught me alot
Prison or time off only gives a person "time to think" some use it wisely others do not
Whether my friend changed I do not know I only hope so
he told me he was just doing what was in at the time around his friends the year of 1960 but after the person tried so hard to get to his family house only to die at his front door set a picture in his head that he could not get out of his mind
we work together for a real good black friend of many years who took me to a church were the message was rapped
Now I still think of my black friend Cliff alot but the murder friend I only pray he has really changed every blue moon or so
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Danny
Can't wait.
One thing marriage has taught and life words are powerful.
What is in you heart will come out.
Print is not easy to erase. If you say(write) it bam there it is.
I guess thats part of repent. Change wow there is some work involved.
I would think Jesus Christ did all the work and we are saved by grace BUT
just by saying a few words doesn't really cut it. We have the work of changing.
Not by our works for the salvation part but works as far as changing our sinful ways.
John you have the work of clearing your good name.
Your words will free you are convict you.
What is in your heart will surely come out sooner or later.
Come back and say a few nice word and bam sooner or later there it is.
You heart in front of the whole world.
What is the old saying you can fool somebody sometimes?
Surely it will have to be a heart deal to fool very many.
I will pray for you when I think of you.
I'm sure I could come up with a few verses of the heart deal.
And a soft answer or hard one.
Proverbs would be a good hunt.
It might help you. Try it. It has a cleansing effect.
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Sunesis
Dear sweet Roy, thank you so much for sharing your story. I have always thought you have a wonderful heart, and we have had some great discussions where we disagreed, but it was still fun.
You are a joy and blessing here.
Please, continue to speak up my sweet brother :)
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Jeaniam
Crude, maybe, but IMO there is no excuse for behaving the way Danny does.
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Nero
I don't think anyone has to take anything off anyone - but John could have thought of a better, more thoughtful come back that wouldn't have gotten him temp-banned.
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cman
And how and in what way is Danny behaving?
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cman
If nothing is true here then why was johniam's response like it was?
Had this been said to or about me, I'd just skip it, or say that he has wrong info.
It's you both that kept bringing up the clocking thing anyway.
Though I'm really not sure who I am speaking with.
Don't matter, both of you kept it going.
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Nero
Amen brother! I couldn't have put it better myself.
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oldiesman
Thanks Jeaniam. Tell Johniam I said hi. :)
As I see this, John responded with vulgarity to a personal attack by Danny:
Danny's bait was offensive and personal. He first asks whether John hit any woman today. Then he calls us (John and me) wolves that tend to stick in packs. Danny then accuses John of deception by logging on as Jean. Then he accuses WTH of having an idol.
John responded with anger and vulgarity, falling for the bait. But, John's response was no less offensive and disparaging than Danny's bait.
Danny gets away with it. John gets banned.
I guess its ok for posters to engage in personal attacks, as long as one isn't vulgar about it?? :huh:
John can speak for himself when he returns. But John doesn't need to clear his good name, say nice words, share how he blew it. He doesn't even need to be prayed for about this.
All he needs to remember (as we all do) is quit engaging in personal attacks.
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doojable
I see a lot of "stuff" on these boards. Lots of fighting and insults. Lots of hand-holding and comforting. I see it because the nature of this medium is that it is fairly permanent. The mods can remove rude or inappropriate comments - but usually by that time the damage has been done and enough people have seen the offense to make an impact.
Back a few months ago, Oldies made a comment regarding how he believed men really felt about young women. I made a comment that set off a demand for an apology. (John was amongst the demanders.) I apologized. John needs to do the same. I saw no reason for OM to have behaved the way he did, but that was beside the point. I had to take responsibility for my words and make clear that I didn't mean to implicate OM in certain unsavory behaviours.
It really doesn't matter how John feels about Danny. What matters is John's personal integrity. We have a certain level of control here on the boards that we don't have in real life. We have those nifty "Delete" and "Edit" buttons. We get to re-think our responses and keep them from speaking even when we aren't looking.
John unfortunately gave everyone a bunch of fuel when he made that initial "clocking" post. He is seeing the consequences of that. You may not like that it misrepresents him (as you and he say,) but he put it out there and it became fodder for the masses. If it gets repeated...well, it could never have gotten repeated had it never been allowed to see the light of day. John apparently believed in his statement enough to allow it to stay on the boards.
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Nero
OM - I get where you are coming from - but we always have to show some restraint. I've been a part of so many forums and I've seen baiting before. I knew before Danny said he was baiting John - that he was baiting him.
I might not think John is the best person in the world - but I don't think he had to take what Danny was saying to him sitting down. I don't think anyone should have to take a personal attack on their character with silence or appology. However, he could have handled it better. He could have built himself up, he could have demanded an appology from Danny for saying that. I dunno - anything but what he said. All he did was lower people's opinion of him again.
This is just my opinion - but I don't think Danny was assassinating John's character - I think he's done a great job of doing himself in already.
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Ham
well, I think it makes the moderators job easier. When the posts stray into the relm of vulgarity, it's pretty clear cut.
I can take a few insults.. a lot of them, I'd agree with anyway.. vulgarity won't nulify an honest observation..
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Sunesis
It was John who proudly said a woman needs a clocking.
Danny was merely repeating what he said. Sometimes words come back to haunt us.
No matter though, who was right or wrong, the response was way overboard.
I think, from Jeans post, its pretty obvious that John will come back with righteous indignation, reflect any blame away from him, it wasn't his fault and Danny shouldn't have started it, he started it first, nyah, nyah...
It will be interesting to see, will John man-up and acknowledge what he said was wrong, and take some personal responsibility - or not. Or will it be someone else's fault?
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irisheyes
John's response WAS more offensive and disparaging. Did you see it?! Apparently, it IS okay to say what you feel, just without getting vulgar. The line is drawn at that. Like it or lump it. If you don't like it, leave. I'll be real curious come December 10. I'm curious as to what good name you are talking about, also. And John doesn't need to say nice words, either? He doesn't need to be prayed for, though he thinks he's above the rules? Excuse me, but I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what a personal attack is versus an opinion. People have a right to their opinions. On GS those opinions need to be kept clean.
There are certain behaviors human beings have that other human beings can't deal with. I happen to know Danny personally. He is incapable of understanding how someone could hit a woman, or think that behavior is okay. You have said stuff that is beyond his understanding, also. I am not trying to fight his battles, he's quite capable of doing that. I am just trying to perhaps show you the other side of the coin. For the most part, a lot of the people who post here have suffered atrocities at the hands of people in TWI. When someone comes along defending the people who used them and/or abused them, it is a hard pill to swallow. It's a relief to be able to share feelings with people who have gone through similar things and it's a comfort to know you aren't the only one who feels that way. Seems you and John and WTH are the ones trying to make others feel badly or ashamed for saying and or feeling the way they do because you find no faults, at least that you admit to, with what went on. If anything, OM, you are the ones who bait others. Seems you dare someone to fight back. Unfortunately, I don't think you picked your battles too well. If you think your little minority is going to change someone's mind, I think you are wasting your time. I can't speak for everyone, but no one could convince me that God didn't mean no adultery when he wrote the 10 commandments, except it was okay for VP. Anyway, that's it. There's a day to day side to people no one sees on a board. Today is Danny's birthday. He took the day off work to be on the road 8 hours driving to attend a funeral for his brother in law's mother. It probably wouldn't have mattered one bit and would have been totally understood had he not shown up, but that's not the kind of guy he is.
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oldiesman
Irisheyes,
I have to disagree with you there because the forum page states the following:
The moderators can't catch every personal insult, and all personal attacks are not complained about. But it still doesn't make it right.
The guideline is: please don't make it personal.
Posters should be able (or at least willing) to make points and share opinions, without going off on personal or judgmental attacks against a poster they may disagree strongly with. It can be hard and sometimes takes a lot of work. But it is possible.
It took me a while to fully understand this as I've been guilty of personal attacks in the past myself. But I've come to realize that making it personal only obscures the points and opinions expressed. There is no need to get personal -- its totally unnecessary.
I'm trying to elevate the discussion so from this point forward, all personal attacks against me are going to be reported to the moderators. That is the way I'll handle it and see what happens.
Maybe it will help some folks tackle the issue rather than the poster.
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Tom Strange
OM, just how is it an "insult" to pretty much quote another poster, or ask them questions regarding things they've posted before?
If a poster has admitted to something that's "insulting" to a normal person does that mean they're insulted when someone asks them about it?
I also do not consider it a "personal attack" when a poster is "calling a spade a spade".
I mean, I find most of your viewpoints "insulting" because I happen to call you on them does not mean I am insulting you.
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