Ah... apologies. Offended people always think apologies are owed to them. When that doesn't happen according to their terms and conditions they remain offended and become self-righteous and judgmental themselves.
Ah... apologies. Offending people never think they did anything wrong, and so don't think they need apologize. They rationalize and sublimate their behavior. Then they go on to offend more people. Pretty soon the trail of damaged lives starts to become evident behind them. And thus by their fruits they are known. And what they have sown they begin to reap, as God is not mocked.
Was it something someone did that offended you, or was it the truth that was preached to you that you didn’t like that offended you? The Jews had the truth taught to them and they stumbled and became offended. They didn’t like the truth that justification and salvation came by the cross of Christ. They thought the way to being justified was through the keeping of the law, so they stumbled at the truth. They stumbled at the truth and couldn’t receive it.
Speaking personally, truth as in the right dividing of the Word applied in love never offends me, even if it catalyzes a change. However, wrongly divided Word applied in error outside of love, and enforced by the abuse of spiritual authority, that certainly is offensive, and not in the "modified" dictionary definition you seem to have grown fond of. More in a legalistic, controlling, and life damaging sense.
If a truth from the Word of God comes to you and if you don’t walk in that truth, then you also become offended.
That's a neat pet theory. Is it a Biblical one?
Now most people don’t call it that. What people don’t realize is that there are two sources for being offended. Is it something someone did wrong to you, or was it the truth that came to you that you didn’t like? The Jews had the truth presented to them, that salvation was through faith and not by the works of the law and they were offended by the claims of Jesus Christ. They thought the law was the way to be justified and sanctified before God so they stumbled at the faith of the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:22,23)
It is in the false vision of truth that many atrocities have been committed. Hitler's "master race". The Inquisition. Muslim suicide attacks. All done in the name of truth, yet led by the spirit of error. When a man's assessment of self places himself above another man, the old man nature and the ego involved open the door for error and slumber. And this is the groundwork for great devastation to be moved by the adversary.
Now the way one gets out of offence is by realizing what they stumbled at. The way one gets out of the offence of someone who did you wrong is different than the way you get out of the offence of stumbling over the truth of God’s Word. Well, you may disagree. If it is the truth, then it doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree – or even if I agree or disagree. If we don’t walk in the light of the truth then we are offended.
And again we get into this new "offended" definition. I John says if we walk in the light then we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we don't it's not described as being "offended". It says if we say we have fellowship, and walk in darkness then we lie and do not the truth. There is a central deception and a central delusion there in I John. And all the talk about truth doesn't make it the truth. Al Gore has a movie entitled "An Inconvenient Truth". His logic is offensive. His clamoring to be in the public eye is offensive. It's certainly inconvenient, but it's not truth. If you really want to understand some things around here, stop blinding yourself to the "offender" and turning all your attention on to the "offended".
What does that mean? It means we stumble. That means you’re not going any further because when light comes you have to walk in that light, otherwise you stumble. It is the entrance of God’s Word that gives light. When light comes then you walk in that, so when the Word of God is taught and more light comes to you as you walk in that light further revelation also comes to you. But if you don’t walk in the light, then you cease to walk altogether. You can’t run the race that is set before you as you can’t even walk without the light.
And what happens when we say we walk in the light but walk in darkness? Then we lie, we deceive ourselves, and we make Him a liar. And real revelation doesn't happen, only contrived plans of men. Broken cisterns that can hold no water.
When Jesus preached the Word of God many were offended at his claims, of who he claimed to be, etc. I always thought if someone was offended at me then I must have done something wrong. Yes, sometimes you have to ask yourself – did I do them wrong? If it’s true then its true and I need to repent, but if it’s not true then I don’t need to ask for forgiveness for something I didn’t do. You don’t owe someone an apology for something you didn’t do, and you don’t have to apologize for something you didn’t do. The reason we think people owe us an apology is because we think they wronged us, and the reason they don’t apologize is simply because they don’t believe they wronged us at all.
And the real reason most of the leadership in twi never apologized is that they wronged people all the time, and pretended they didn't know it. They lied about what they told people and did, played politics and ruined people's lives, and then never apologized trying to delude themselves into believing they didn't wrong anybody, but just presented the truth to them. And yet a little voice in their conscience knows differently, unless it has become seared with a hot iron due to their behavior. Ultimately, God is not fooled.
But I was talking earlier about the process of restoring fellowship with one who was offended. In that process repentance is not involved (repentance is for the unsaved sinner) but that of forgiveness (forgiveness is for the one who is saved). Now I haven't read anywhere in the Word of God it is always guaranteed one can restore the fellowship they once had with someone. There are many factors that come into play as to whether that is possible or not – i.e. what was the relationship before the offence took place? What value do you have (and what value does the other person have) toward that relationship? Those are probably the primary questions.
Restoring fellowship with the offended? With who? God? That happens when the offended realizes God's care for them is loving, unlike the abuser's supposed care. Fellowship with the abuser? There is none, because that would have to be predicated by an apology and realization of the depth of the injury. And it's easier to ignore it. Even then there's no guarantee.
Many times the reason we feel people owe us an apology is largely because we feel something of value was lost. The reason someone may not apologize to us is largely due to what they value themselves out of the relationship. If LCM and Rosie etc., have not apologized (and they don’t intend to) then what value is the relationship to them – or even to you for that matter? Perhaps the better question to ask yourself is: What is it that you value the most? Because whatever you value the most is your god – (or your God) and there certainly are a lot of gods alive and well in America today, not necessarily the true God. Now a lot of people value money more than a lot of other things, perhaps even more than the relationships they have with others. Now there is nothing wrong with money in and of itself, unless you are relying on it and somehow it meets your needs far more than what you are relying on God to meet your needs. Yeah, money is one of the many gods that people do have.
The value of the relationship of those people to the people they have abused is obviously very low. So they didn't value a good name and relationship with the common. I'm not sure WTH you are talking about w/r to what you value is your god. Is this some kind of a lecture on idolatry? Money? For that to be an idol you actually have to have some.
But I believe there is something we as Americans today have come to value far more than money, and that is: privacy. That’s right. We don’t want people getting into our lives, or being involved in our lives or having to share our lives with one another – the essence of what real relationships are about. Many times the god that we are worshipping is simply ourselves - and we have not come to realize or have dealt well at all with the god of our own privacy. That too, I believe, also comes into play as to whether or not you are capable of restoring the relationship you had with someone who may be offended.
Oh, this is top notch entertainment. Privacy. We sound like a brainwash victim here. The problem with relationships w/r to TWI is that the leadership was blind to the boundaries that exist in normal healthy relationships. They would so constantly overstep freedom of will with controlling advice that relationships there are more of a controller and a co-dependant as opposed to free adults healthily interacting. This is so easy to see in the sentence equating people "getting into our lives" with being involved with and sharing lives. In a healthy relationship people share what they choose. Instead of hundreds of inquisition type inquiries and "checking things by someone". That's a puppet and a puppeteer, and is a dysfunctional relationship. One of the ways you start to see the dysfunction there is when the puppeteer shares little, and the puppet is required to share much. VPW taught on the lockbox. But these clowns freely pass innermost secrets of people's lives up and down chains of authority, all inserting their opinions. They put the "fun" in dys-fun-ctional.
The god of our own privacy. Yeah. It's called the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights which is the foundation behind law. In God We Trust. That's why it takes lawsuits and the threat of lawsuit to effect change where common sense and common Christian courtesy are so missing. Simple HR laws that prevent defamation of character toward former employees. A level playing field for all is the goal of law. And it's a beautiful thing, otherwise the control of the few elite might have been unchecked, and life would gravitate back towards the Inquisition days.
Privacy. We sound like a brainwash victim here. The problem with relationships w/r to TWI is that the leadership was blind to the boundaries that exist in normal healthy relationships. They would so constantly overstep freedom of will with controlling advice that relationships there are more of a controller and a co-dependant as opposed to free adults healthily interacting. This is so easy to see in the sentence equating people "getting into our lives" with being involved with and sharing lives. In a healthy relationship people share what they choose. Instead of hundreds of inquisition type inquiries and "checking things by someone". That's a puppet and a puppeteer, and is a dysfunctional relationship. One of the ways you start to see the dysfunction there is when the puppeteer shares little, and the puppet is required to share much. VPW taught on the lockbox. But these clowns freely pass innermost secrets of people's lives up and down chains of authority, all inserting their opinions. They put the "fun" in dys-fun-ctional.
there was no lockbox. information about me was circulated amongst top leadership, lest I become a liability, and our local leadership freely talked behind the backs of whoever he pleased. what motivated him? the simplest and most direct answer would be to incite a situation of disapproval by peers, i.e. bringing peer pressure to bear in order to get people to do what he wanted when his "suggestions" weren't being followed.
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
These are the things that were done in twi/pfal doctrine and practice.
Right here is the answer to what word was taught and lived.
And it continues to this day as the Spirit is denied it's say
The lusts of the flesh was and is the rule, the standard of pfal.
IN Seeking to justify pfal and vpw, you are fallen from grace.
And into the trap that was so carefully planned and executed by ungodly men.
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
For me, what the things taught in PFAL mean is that I can now approach the Word of God with confidence instead of ignorance and trepidation. For me to not see the Grace of God in my history when it occured would be like denying the air that I breath. There have been a few doctrinal changes for me too, and PFAL is where I learned to change a doctrine with confidence.
As far as the organization behind the class goes, it's pretty ugly for me to look at the history; besides many here know more of the history than I do.
Other options that I'm forced to consider are:
"Those that change the grace of God into lasciviousness" Jude 4
Those that sin willfully and knew that it was bad (see Heb 10: 26, 27)
I could go on about other specific possibilities but a lot of them are summed up in the book of Jude.
Many other places too.
These possibilities don't change the thing I believe to be true, that the Grace of God was at the root of the class that taught me God's Word. But the possibilities for what went wrong are hard to consider, but it's obvious that many things went drastically wrong.
It is hard to consider past events that hurt so many.
It just doesn't change where I'm coming from. It can't change what's been a blessing to me. I'm fruit too.
It's obvious to you guys that I don't like where some of my fellow PFAL grads are coming from,isn't it?
I'll deal with that the best I can.
I cannot deny the air that I breath. I cannot deny that PFAL was good for me. I remember many people fondly. I never tasted tasted the nasty things many of you have, until more recently in a small splinter group that deliberatly wrecked my life.
The Lord's return is when I believe it'll all be sorted out.
It is hard to consider past events that hurt so many.
It just doesn't change where I'm coming from. It can't change what's been a blessing to me. I'm fruit too.
It's obvious to you guys that I don't like where some of my fellow PFAL grads are coming from,isn't it?
I'll deal with that the best I can.
I cannot deny the air that I breath. I cannot deny that PFAL was good for me. I remember many people fondly. I never tasted tasted the nasty things many of you have, until more recently in a small splinter group that deliberatly wrecked my life.
The Lord's return is when I believe it'll all be sorted out.
jeffsjo, thanks for that honest statement. I don't know if I believe in the return anymore, but I guess we'll see. at least I'm not afraid of it anymore, and if that's one thing I learned in all my years of bible study then that's enough for me. yes, there was good information in pfal, lifted from the work of other men and women. thank God it was there so we could learn it, although I think the really useful stuff could have been covered in an hour and we could have easily skipped vpw's self-serving set up as the MOG, and I'd also like to say that if pfal hadn't been there to pull us off the path, many of us would have continued to seek truth instead of stopping on the wayside and putting on blinders.
I agree with cman. I wish I'd stopped at pfal. it was the first step into hell candy-coated with seductive promises, like being able to have a personal relationship with God. that early gift was stripped away a hundred-fold over the years.
Hi sweetpotato, (If that bothers you I'll stop it, no problem.)
The Lord's return is like any other truth. When truth happens, it happens.
I can't completely agree with your conclusions as to the heart and intent of Dr.Wierwille. But I do recognize that they're coming from a place that has many painful memories for you, I'm not condeming you for those opinions.
The blinders as you refer to them were deliberatly put on us by some in leadership and contributed greatly to the ultimate trainwreck that happened in the ministry.
It seems to me that if we could have called sin, sin it might have stood as a good ministry.
you can call me sweetpotato :) you can even tell potato jokes if you like, although I think I heard them all pretty quick once I started visiting the chat room ;)
Hi sweetpotato, (If that bothers you I'll stop it, no problem.)
The Lord's return is like any other truth. When truth happens, it happens.
I can't completely agree with your conclusions as to the heart and intent of Dr.Wierwille. But I do recognize that they're coming from a place that has many painful memories for you, I'm not condeming you for those opinions.
The blinders as you refer to them were deliberatly put on us by some in leadership and contributed greatly to the ultimate trainwreck that happened in the ministry.
It seems to me that if we could have called sin, sin it might have stood as a good ministry.
we were offered the blinders in pfal. the promises on the green card are emotionally compelling. once you put the blinders on and start chasing the carrot, you (I mean I/we/anyone) become like the rat with the choice between two levers, that will basically masturbate until it dies.
maybe vpw didn't set out to take advantage of thousands of people, maybe he was just looking for a comfortable living (there's lots of info to peruse here that indicates it wasn't quite that shallow a decision) but it didn't take long for him to see the potential, and the fact that he chose to give into his base instincts rather that follow a higher path as a minister of God's people speaks volumes about his character.
Sometimes I wonder what might have been if only I was stronger, then I stop thinking like that because God knew very darn well just how weak I was.
I definatly don't feel that I was played like you do, but then I wasn't there when you took the class. Maybe you were played and for your leadership it was a manipulation.
A lot of what I heard in PFAL about proving doctrines and so forth is what I've come to think of as Dr. Wierwille at his best. I know from my own life that I'm not always at my best, but it's always in there somewhere. I was never close enough to Dr. Wierwille to know what was really going on in the ministry, but when I had the chance to make a difference in one they wrecked my life, and I don't believe that I'm overstating that. It amounted to a stubborn refusal to listen on their part, followed by a big helping of put downs and mind games directed at me. This lasted for years.
I called them on things like spitting on people, false prophecies, bad biblical workmanship, and a heavy handed style of leadership of which my life is proof of.
Ive just gotta look forward to the Lord's 2nd coming, it's where the justice finally comes. In the mean time, at least I did my best to help.
Did you think the restaurant joke was funny potato?
Jeff, I guess that I feel like the *snare* was well disguised. No matter how strong, or how sharp we were. Proverbs says...*in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey* ....in other words..
Any prey animal can flee if they see the trap before it is sprung.
The clever predator baits the disguised snare with something that has irresistable attraction, in order to lure the prey that normally has the speed and agility to remain far out of the predators grasp.
The prey approaches unsuspecting, focused on the bait...the predator remains hidden untill the trap is sprung and then whammo...when the prey finally realizes that they have been ensnared...it is too late to escape.
TWI leaders were the predators, the ravening wolves if you will.......that masqueraded as ministers, the bait was the scriptures that offered us hope, the ministry had the appearance of being a safe haven...the very snare itself, the prison to keep us from freedom... we were the prey that were lured unwittingly into entrapment, our resources and lives to be consumed at will, by the ravening wolves...:(
We were naieve and gullible, unaware that people were so despicable as to use the bible and God`s name to decieve.
There is a lot of merit to what you're saying. I wish that it hadn't gone so badly for so many. I think that the ministry became predatory is a matter of record now for me, I don't consider it simple opinion anymore.
I think an error people are prone to make is to judge someones "intentions" instead of actions. I believe that according to scripture judging someone's heart will ultimately be the Lord's doing, and not mine.
That being said, I'm pretty p.o.'d about the train wreck.
((Jeff)) ....great thoughts....thanks for taking the time to share them with me.
I guess that what I am po`d about is the abuse suffered by innocent young men and women.......I just can`t seem to give a damn about what the intentions of the ones that were causing the suffering :(
Those that did it claiming that GOD almighty required this of us......I guess I must appear to be pretty harsh and judgemental...I am sorry ....I just don`t honestly care what their motives were...people were destroyed and lives were lost :(
I cannot fathom God being behind the people who committed such atrocities in his name.
As jesus said to the crowd with stones ready to kill a woman full of "atrocities" they had every legal right to kill her with the stones, you know she was a very bad woman in the eye of the law and God.
He never told them they didnt have a right to punish or hate only those who had never sinned to go first.
He forgave her Rascal, so imagine that.
the entire bible is a book about God redeeming worthless man back to His love.
do not make this about how i must idol vpw I do not BUT i do listen and learn from what the LORD did and how he instructed us in his scriptures
Yeah well he treated that woman a WHOLE lot different than he did the money changers and pharacees that were taking advantage of or hurting people in God`s name...imagine that.
I agree there is plenty to learn from Jesus in how he dealt with people...
As far as I am concerned ....twi leaders are NO different than the pharacees who used their authority as leaders for God to hurt and steal .....you remember ...the ones that he declared *whited sepulchers* they were filled with death and corruption on the inside and shiney white on the outside....oh my now..THAT wasn`t very forgiving of mean old Jesus
Guess what? I saw a documentary on Jeruselem one time.....the narrator explained that the sepulchers...the above ground tombs that were painted white....it was done only to those whom died of contagious diseases...it was a warning to all to stay away lest they become infected with the disease also.... :blink:
Imagine THAT!!! SO much we can learn from Jesus :)
When and IF these people ever repent, AND make amends...shrug THEN I might feel a small obligation to consider forgiving them.
Untill THEN....I will consider their motives and the scriptures used to fascilitate evil of no account or value to me...
We do not know who repents and we do not repent to one another We repent in our spirit filled life with our behaviours.
No one can go back and help you decide not to have an abortion Rascal what could they possibly do to redeem your feelings about something you did because they suggested to you something you now decades later say was a bad choice in life.
you got hurt, you blame these people out there who talked to you and you trusted and you got burned.
that happens to most everyone in life Rascal by somone in the path of life.
the divorce rate is very high i do not believe for a moment a couple gets married and wishes they were one of the failure group yet it the divorce rate is indeed increasing and people are still getting married.
life is risky and icky and messy.
you do not know who has repented Rascal , and i do not believe anything they could do will help you get better about your pains in life.
it is the same for everyone my mom is dead it hurts , life is painful so does she need to ask for forgivness and come back to life as a ghost or soemthing so I can be healthy about it?
no it is times like these we need to cling to Gods word of comfort and love, not the hate and strife which only concludes in hurting and more pain .
we live we learn such is life.
you are not hurting them it is indeed betwen them and God.
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chockfull
Ah... apologies. Offending people never think they did anything wrong, and so don't think they need apologize. They rationalize and sublimate their behavior. Then they go on to offend more people. Pretty soon the trail of damaged lives starts to become evident behind them. And thus by their fruits they are known. And what they have sown they begin to reap, as God is not mocked.
Speaking personally, truth as in the right dividing of the Word applied in love never offends me, even if it catalyzes a change. However, wrongly divided Word applied in error outside of love, and enforced by the abuse of spiritual authority, that certainly is offensive, and not in the "modified" dictionary definition you seem to have grown fond of. More in a legalistic, controlling, and life damaging sense.That's a neat pet theory. Is it a Biblical one?
It is in the false vision of truth that many atrocities have been committed. Hitler's "master race". The Inquisition. Muslim suicide attacks. All done in the name of truth, yet led by the spirit of error. When a man's assessment of self places himself above another man, the old man nature and the ego involved open the door for error and slumber. And this is the groundwork for great devastation to be moved by the adversary.And again we get into this new "offended" definition. I John says if we walk in the light then we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. If we don't it's not described as being "offended". It says if we say we have fellowship, and walk in darkness then we lie and do not the truth. There is a central deception and a central delusion there in I John. And all the talk about truth doesn't make it the truth. Al Gore has a movie entitled "An Inconvenient Truth". His logic is offensive. His clamoring to be in the public eye is offensive. It's certainly inconvenient, but it's not truth. If you really want to understand some things around here, stop blinding yourself to the "offender" and turning all your attention on to the "offended".
And what happens when we say we walk in the light but walk in darkness? Then we lie, we deceive ourselves, and we make Him a liar. And real revelation doesn't happen, only contrived plans of men. Broken cisterns that can hold no water.And the real reason most of the leadership in twi never apologized is that they wronged people all the time, and pretended they didn't know it. They lied about what they told people and did, played politics and ruined people's lives, and then never apologized trying to delude themselves into believing they didn't wrong anybody, but just presented the truth to them. And yet a little voice in their conscience knows differently, unless it has become seared with a hot iron due to their behavior. Ultimately, God is not fooled.
Restoring fellowship with the offended? With who? God? That happens when the offended realizes God's care for them is loving, unlike the abuser's supposed care. Fellowship with the abuser? There is none, because that would have to be predicated by an apology and realization of the depth of the injury. And it's easier to ignore it. Even then there's no guarantee.The value of the relationship of those people to the people they have abused is obviously very low. So they didn't value a good name and relationship with the common. I'm not sure WTH you are talking about w/r to what you value is your god. Is this some kind of a lecture on idolatry? Money? For that to be an idol you actually have to have some.
Oh, this is top notch entertainment. Privacy. We sound like a brainwash victim here. The problem with relationships w/r to TWI is that the leadership was blind to the boundaries that exist in normal healthy relationships. They would so constantly overstep freedom of will with controlling advice that relationships there are more of a controller and a co-dependant as opposed to free adults healthily interacting. This is so easy to see in the sentence equating people "getting into our lives" with being involved with and sharing lives. In a healthy relationship people share what they choose. Instead of hundreds of inquisition type inquiries and "checking things by someone". That's a puppet and a puppeteer, and is a dysfunctional relationship. One of the ways you start to see the dysfunction there is when the puppeteer shares little, and the puppet is required to share much. VPW taught on the lockbox. But these clowns freely pass innermost secrets of people's lives up and down chains of authority, all inserting their opinions. They put the "fun" in dys-fun-ctional.
The god of our own privacy. Yeah. It's called the Constitution of the United States of America and the Bill of Rights which is the foundation behind law. In God We Trust. That's why it takes lawsuits and the threat of lawsuit to effect change where common sense and common Christian courtesy are so missing. Simple HR laws that prevent defamation of character toward former employees. A level playing field for all is the goal of law. And it's a beautiful thing, otherwise the control of the few elite might have been unchecked, and life would gravitate back towards the Inquisition days.
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Danny
Thanks Chockfull
And let's blame the victim at the same time.
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potato
there was no lockbox. information about me was circulated amongst top leadership, lest I become a liability, and our local leadership freely talked behind the backs of whoever he pleased. what motivated him? the simplest and most direct answer would be to incite a situation of disapproval by peers, i.e. bringing peer pressure to bear in order to get people to do what he wanted when his "suggestions" weren't being followed.
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J0nny Ling0
Wow.
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GarthP2000
I 2nd what Jonny said.
... altho' it might be for different reasons, ... I can't really tell at this point.
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cman
I'll ask you again WhatTheHey.
What word of God and what truth are you talking about?
There was no truth taught that wasn't soaking in selfishness and bigomy.
Which made it a lie and lived out to be what it became.
Starting as the works of the flesh and ending in corruption.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
These are the things that were done in twi/pfal doctrine and practice.
Right here is the answer to what word was taught and lived.
And it continues to this day as the Spirit is denied it's say
The lusts of the flesh was and is the rule, the standard of pfal.
IN Seeking to justify pfal and vpw, you are fallen from grace.
And into the trap that was so carefully planned and executed by ungodly men.
This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
You should have listened to those who were there.
It's still not too late, never is.
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JeffSjo
Hi cman,
For me, what the things taught in PFAL mean is that I can now approach the Word of God with confidence instead of ignorance and trepidation. For me to not see the Grace of God in my history when it occured would be like denying the air that I breath. There have been a few doctrinal changes for me too, and PFAL is where I learned to change a doctrine with confidence.
As far as the organization behind the class goes, it's pretty ugly for me to look at the history; besides many here know more of the history than I do.
Other options that I'm forced to consider are:
"Those that change the grace of God into lasciviousness" Jude 4
Those that sin willfully and knew that it was bad (see Heb 10: 26, 27)
I could go on about other specific possibilities but a lot of them are summed up in the book of Jude.
Many other places too.
These possibilities don't change the thing I believe to be true, that the Grace of God was at the root of the class that taught me God's Word. But the possibilities for what went wrong are hard to consider, but it's obvious that many things went drastically wrong.
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cman
I'm actually glad I took pfal.
Too bad it didn't stop there though, know what I mean.
There are some good things in pfal and some bad.
The bad was in it on purpose I believe.
Like your Hebrews notation there.
Was it truth?
No, not to me.
Part of truth is not truth, but a lie.
Especially when it's mixed with what pfal did.
And it's fruit.
But it did indeed set me on a course to look for truth.
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JeffSjo
However our understanding of it all developes, I hope that from this point on it can be mutually beneficial cman.
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cman
Me too, cuz hardly anyone is totally agreeable on a lot.
Which is good.
The main thing is love I think.
Certainly a clear command to us.
Thewn the how to do that thing is funny sometimes.
But it works out with hearts that are honest.
That's the way I like to see everyone, honest.
Honestly..:)
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excathedra
the main thing IS love i think also
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JeffSjo
I have to consider myself PFAL fruit.
It is hard to consider past events that hurt so many.
It just doesn't change where I'm coming from. It can't change what's been a blessing to me. I'm fruit too.
It's obvious to you guys that I don't like where some of my fellow PFAL grads are coming from,isn't it?
I'll deal with that the best I can.
I cannot deny the air that I breath. I cannot deny that PFAL was good for me. I remember many people fondly. I never tasted tasted the nasty things many of you have, until more recently in a small splinter group that deliberatly wrecked my life.
The Lord's return is when I believe it'll all be sorted out.
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potato
jeffsjo, thanks for that honest statement. I don't know if I believe in the return anymore, but I guess we'll see. at least I'm not afraid of it anymore, and if that's one thing I learned in all my years of bible study then that's enough for me. yes, there was good information in pfal, lifted from the work of other men and women. thank God it was there so we could learn it, although I think the really useful stuff could have been covered in an hour and we could have easily skipped vpw's self-serving set up as the MOG, and I'd also like to say that if pfal hadn't been there to pull us off the path, many of us would have continued to seek truth instead of stopping on the wayside and putting on blinders.
I agree with cman. I wish I'd stopped at pfal. it was the first step into hell candy-coated with seductive promises, like being able to have a personal relationship with God. that early gift was stripped away a hundred-fold over the years.
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JeffSjo
Hi sweetpotato, (If that bothers you I'll stop it, no problem.)
The Lord's return is like any other truth. When truth happens, it happens.
I can't completely agree with your conclusions as to the heart and intent of Dr.Wierwille. But I do recognize that they're coming from a place that has many painful memories for you, I'm not condeming you for those opinions.
The blinders as you refer to them were deliberatly put on us by some in leadership and contributed greatly to the ultimate trainwreck that happened in the ministry.
It seems to me that if we could have called sin, sin it might have stood as a good ministry.
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potato
you can call me sweetpotato :) you can even tell potato jokes if you like, although I think I heard them all pretty quick once I started visiting the chat room ;)
we were offered the blinders in pfal. the promises on the green card are emotionally compelling. once you put the blinders on and start chasing the carrot, you (I mean I/we/anyone) become like the rat with the choice between two levers, that will basically masturbate until it dies.
maybe vpw didn't set out to take advantage of thousands of people, maybe he was just looking for a comfortable living (there's lots of info to peruse here that indicates it wasn't quite that shallow a decision) but it didn't take long for him to see the potential, and the fact that he chose to give into his base instincts rather that follow a higher path as a minister of God's people speaks volumes about his character.
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JeffSjo
Sometimes I wonder what might have been if only I was stronger, then I stop thinking like that because God knew very darn well just how weak I was.
I definatly don't feel that I was played like you do, but then I wasn't there when you took the class. Maybe you were played and for your leadership it was a manipulation.
A lot of what I heard in PFAL about proving doctrines and so forth is what I've come to think of as Dr. Wierwille at his best. I know from my own life that I'm not always at my best, but it's always in there somewhere. I was never close enough to Dr. Wierwille to know what was really going on in the ministry, but when I had the chance to make a difference in one they wrecked my life, and I don't believe that I'm overstating that. It amounted to a stubborn refusal to listen on their part, followed by a big helping of put downs and mind games directed at me. This lasted for years.
I called them on things like spitting on people, false prophecies, bad biblical workmanship, and a heavy handed style of leadership of which my life is proof of.
Ive just gotta look forward to the Lord's 2nd coming, it's where the justice finally comes. In the mean time, at least I did my best to help.
Did you think the restaurant joke was funny potato?
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potato
that one broke my heart. I was ready to start my own ministry and then found out my calling was running a potato cafe :(
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rascal
Jeff, I guess that I feel like the *snare* was well disguised. No matter how strong, or how sharp we were. Proverbs says...*in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey* ....in other words..
Any prey animal can flee if they see the trap before it is sprung.
The clever predator baits the disguised snare with something that has irresistable attraction, in order to lure the prey that normally has the speed and agility to remain far out of the predators grasp.
The prey approaches unsuspecting, focused on the bait...the predator remains hidden untill the trap is sprung and then whammo...when the prey finally realizes that they have been ensnared...it is too late to escape.
TWI leaders were the predators, the ravening wolves if you will.......that masqueraded as ministers, the bait was the scriptures that offered us hope, the ministry had the appearance of being a safe haven...the very snare itself, the prison to keep us from freedom... we were the prey that were lured unwittingly into entrapment, our resources and lives to be consumed at will, by the ravening wolves...:(
We were naieve and gullible, unaware that people were so despicable as to use the bible and God`s name to decieve.
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JeffSjo
Hi Rascal, it's always a pleasure,
There is a lot of merit to what you're saying. I wish that it hadn't gone so badly for so many. I think that the ministry became predatory is a matter of record now for me, I don't consider it simple opinion anymore.
I think an error people are prone to make is to judge someones "intentions" instead of actions. I believe that according to scripture judging someone's heart will ultimately be the Lord's doing, and not mine.
That being said, I'm pretty p.o.'d about the train wreck.
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rascal
((Jeff)) ....great thoughts....thanks for taking the time to share them with me.
I guess that what I am po`d about is the abuse suffered by innocent young men and women.......I just can`t seem to give a damn about what the intentions of the ones that were causing the suffering :(
Those that did it claiming that GOD almighty required this of us......I guess I must appear to be pretty harsh and judgemental...I am sorry ....I just don`t honestly care what their motives were...people were destroyed and lives were lost :(
I cannot fathom God being behind the people who committed such atrocities in his name.
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waysider
I'll never know whether or not VP started out with honest intentions.
I do believe,however, that there had to have been time when he MUST have known that what he was doing was wrong.
He did not make any visible effort to correct his erroneous lifestyle.
That in itself negates his original intentions.
IMO
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pond
your not alone Rascal
As jesus said to the crowd with stones ready to kill a woman full of "atrocities" they had every legal right to kill her with the stones, you know she was a very bad woman in the eye of the law and God.
He never told them they didnt have a right to punish or hate only those who had never sinned to go first.
He forgave her Rascal, so imagine that.
the entire bible is a book about God redeeming worthless man back to His love.
do not make this about how i must idol vpw I do not BUT i do listen and learn from what the LORD did and how he instructed us in his scriptures
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rascal
Yeah well he treated that woman a WHOLE lot different than he did the money changers and pharacees that were taking advantage of or hurting people in God`s name...imagine that.
I agree there is plenty to learn from Jesus in how he dealt with people...
As far as I am concerned ....twi leaders are NO different than the pharacees who used their authority as leaders for God to hurt and steal .....you remember ...the ones that he declared *whited sepulchers* they were filled with death and corruption on the inside and shiney white on the outside....oh my now..THAT wasn`t very forgiving of mean old Jesus
Guess what? I saw a documentary on Jeruselem one time.....the narrator explained that the sepulchers...the above ground tombs that were painted white....it was done only to those whom died of contagious diseases...it was a warning to all to stay away lest they become infected with the disease also.... :blink:
Imagine THAT!!! SO much we can learn from Jesus :)
When and IF these people ever repent, AND make amends...shrug THEN I might feel a small obligation to consider forgiving them.
Untill THEN....I will consider their motives and the scriptures used to fascilitate evil of no account or value to me...
It is between them and God.
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pond
We do not know who repents and we do not repent to one another We repent in our spirit filled life with our behaviours.
No one can go back and help you decide not to have an abortion Rascal what could they possibly do to redeem your feelings about something you did because they suggested to you something you now decades later say was a bad choice in life.
you got hurt, you blame these people out there who talked to you and you trusted and you got burned.
that happens to most everyone in life Rascal by somone in the path of life.
the divorce rate is very high i do not believe for a moment a couple gets married and wishes they were one of the failure group yet it the divorce rate is indeed increasing and people are still getting married.
life is risky and icky and messy.
you do not know who has repented Rascal , and i do not believe anything they could do will help you get better about your pains in life.
it is the same for everyone my mom is dead it hurts , life is painful so does she need to ask for forgivness and come back to life as a ghost or soemthing so I can be healthy about it?
no it is times like these we need to cling to Gods word of comfort and love, not the hate and strife which only concludes in hurting and more pain .
we live we learn such is life.
you are not hurting them it is indeed betwen them and God.
but the pain you carry hurts you.
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