The Voice of Offence

[rascal]

Don`tWorrybehappy, Thank you. It cannot be said any clearer than that.

[skyrider]

Hello WhatTheHey!..........fyi, and for the record here at the greasespot cafe, please allow me to quote from a post to whitedove i posted on a different thread, on a somewhat related topic to this thread........

"......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly that god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!!

of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!"

"One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims.

after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out!

another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!"

I made almost the same, exact statements i quoted above to twi's lawyers during several hours of depositions i made "under oath" to them in several different conversations i had with them during 1999, during the discovery phase of their preparations for the trial that was to take place in sidney, oh, in november of 1999,

regarding the lawsuit against twi, lcm and twi's bot brought by paul and fern a--en. the lawyers repeatedly asked me if i was "willing to testify to the same in court", to which i replied, "gladly! just name the time and place!"..........on the day before i was to fly to ohio to appear as a witness for the plaintiffs in that lawsuit, i received a phone call from the plaintiff's lawyer, informing me that twi had "suddenly decided" to settle the lawsuit "out of court", and that it would not be necessary for me to fly to ohio after all!.......apparently, twi's lawyers had convinced their clients that, it would be "better" for twi if the testimony that was to be presented against them in that court case would not become a matter of "public record" !.........so, in order to "protect the ministry" which "god had given them", lcm and twi's bot decided that, indeed, "discretion" would be the better part of "valor".......they chose to "settle the matter" "out of court".........i am not privvy to all the details of that settlement, nor do i care to be..........but, i am thrilled to know, that, the testimony i was prepared to give, and the specific FACTS contained in the depositions i had made, helped force martindale's "resignation" as twi's president in april, 2000!.........i know for a FACT, that martindale and twi were unable to deny the FACTS i presented in those depositions, some of which i quoted above!.........as i said, those were just a few paragraphs from several hours of depositions twi's lawyer's took from me.........i was never deposed by paul and fern's attorney!..........

the out-of-court settlement allowed twi to put all the spin they could on their "handling" of martindale's resignation.......remember........their initial spin was that the lawsuit they had just settled, revolved around a "one time consensual affair" martindale admitted to having, and yada, yada, yada..........which lcm, rosie, the then twi bot knew was a total cover-up of what was really going on in twi's "inner circle", not only at that time, but for many years previous!!.......the judge's ruling is a matter of public record.........interesting to note how much the judge thought rosie and the boyz knew, and how long they had known it!!......since it was settled out-of-court, i'm sure twi paid a lot of abs in high-priced legal fees for their lawyers to help them in their commitment to absolute "discretion"..........even with all that expensive legal assistance, twi could not prevent the second lawsuit, by january kau----n, which kinda debunked the "one time consensual affair" myth that martindale admitted to.........to prevent the impending flood of FACTS and legal truths that was imminent, twi was forced to "let craig go", drop him from active corps, etc., etc., etc.,............in september of 2000!.........so, apparently the FACTS some feel they need "proof" of were given to twi's lawyer's, who, it seems, thought it a good idea for twi to settle out of court after reviewing those FACTS,,,,,and the judge thought them good enough to settle the case in paul and fern's favor........and twi thought them good enough to pay top dollar to keep them out of the public record so those of you who would really benefit from seeing them, can't do so!!.....unverifiable, WD???.........not for the lawyers, or the judge in sidney who ruled on that case!

so..........i applaud all those who have posted the FACTS of their abuse at the hands of twi's "leaders" here!......i am thankful that they've had the courage to post those FACTS here.......and that Pawtucket keeps this place open so those FACTS and thousands more can be posted here for all to see, for as long as there are courageous folks willing to expose themselves to the frosty, compassionless, attacks of those who refuse to acknowlege the veracity of those witnesses!.......in the end, i believe that what goes around comes around, and usually, THE TRUE FACTS all come out in the wash!!.....imho, wth,.....the greatest "offence" is that lcm, rosie, twi and all of it's offshoots, still believe they owe no one any apologies!...........they see no need for their repentance before god and the lord jesus christ!..........they cling viciously to their evil, perverse, doctrines of men.......deluding themselves with their "present truth", "prevailing word", "personal prophecy", "liberating ministries", "biblical research", "bible classes", "deliverance sessions", ad infinitum, ad nauseum, into thinking that they've each got "god's calling" to "teach the word as it has'nt been known since the first century"!!!...........ferociously fighting "the adversary" and all his minions, to keep the legacy of an alcoholic, pathological liar, sociopathic sexual predator, immoral, and unrepentant, "man of god", who had the brazen audacity to present himself to the world as "the teacher",....alive and well!..........to continue burning holes in the souls of innocent seekers in the name of their false gods!!..........just my opinion........for what it's worth..........they are the true voices of offence, to god and humanity!!.................................peace.

Thanks DontWorry........for stepping forward to assist the All3ns and be deposed by their lawyer......and thereby, jolting twi's spin efforts with the major blow of martindale's resignation and ousting.

And, in bold-type..........unverifiable?? INDEED.

Edited December 20, 2007 by pawtucket

[johniam]

WD is not calling anyone a liar. As I read all this, he just doesn't assign the same VALUE to the supposed facts given even if they are actual facts. He says they could be facts, but could be opinions as well, be even if they ARE facts, so what? I agree: the word's still the word no matter what people do. You don't have to agree.

[cman]

What "word" is that johniam?

They certainly didn't give it, whatever it was.

They took more then they gave that's for sure.

If one thinks twi/vpw was giving the word.

What word are we speaking of?

Since some here seek proof, as well as I.

[chockfull]

I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..

That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..

I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.

On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..

I became, and am becoming what could have been..

I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..

I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..

It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..

but still the past is part of me.

Rascal got the black belt..

"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..

The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..

You know H, that's an interesting thing to consider you brought up, about whether or not we can really separate ourselves from our past as its still part of us. That made me actually go look up Phil. 3:13 again and look at some of those words. The religious would lecture about "forgetting the past", etc., etc., etc. and speak ex cathedra from a throne and try to shut down talking about it. But I tell you I can sure remember the offences that happened to me in detail and with great clarity, many years later.

So what does that section mean to me? One of the definitions of that word "forget" is "to neglect, no longer caring for". I guess I'd have to say that a lot like the things you are sharing, what I am building now is more important to me than all that. Education, business, hobbies, relationships in my community. And yes, studying the Bible. But I do it now more for me - what interests me, rather than out of obligation or religious duress. I guess over time I spend more time on the things I love and less time on all the sicko stuff I went through. But I tell you, the indignation at the injustice still gets me worked up. And maybe that's a good thing, to keep evil from functioning.

Congrats to you on what you've built, rascal you too. And who cares if we could have done it years ago? God will bless us and prosper what we're doing now because He's God.

so..........i applaud all those who have posted the FACTS of their abuse at the hands of twi's "leaders" here!......i am thankful that they've had the courage to post those FACTS here.......and that Pawtucket keeps this place open so those FACTS and thousands more can be posted here for all to see, for as long as there are courageous folks willing to expose themselves to the frosty, compassionless, attacks of those who refuse to acknowlege the veracity of those witnesses!.......in the end, i believe that what goes around comes around, and usually, THE TRUE FACTS all come out in the wash!!.....imho, wth,.....the greatest "offence" is that lcm, rosie, twi and all of it's offshoots, still believe they owe no one any apologies!...........they see no need for their repentance before god and the lord jesus christ!..........they cling viciously to their evil, perverse, doctrines of men.......deluding themselves with their "present truth", "prevailing word", "personal prophecy", "liberating ministries", "biblical research", "bible classes", "deliverance sessions", ad infinitum, ad nauseum, into thinking that they've each got "god's calling" to "teach the word as it has'nt been known since the first century"!!!...........ferociously fighting "the adversary" and all his minions, to keep the legacy of an alcoholic, pathological liar, sociopathic sexual predator, immoral, and unrepentant, "man of god", who had the brazen audacity to present himself to the world as "the teacher",....alive and well!..........to continue burning holes in the souls of innocent seekers in the name of their false gods!!..........just my opinion........for what it's worth..........they are the true voices of offence, to god and humanity!!.................................peace.

DWBH,

Thanks for all you've done and posted. You're cool in my book.

CF

Edited December 20, 2007 by chockfull

[Tom Strange]

Hi folks,

I just wanted to pop in here and ask folks to please not forget GSC and paw during this holiday season. I've got a thread going over in the 'Open' forum (called "LOOK IN HERE") with all of the details but basically you can either go to Paypal.com directly, sign in, click on 'send money' and send it to 'pawtucket@greasespotcafe.com'...

Whatever you're heart feels like giving... $5, $10 or more if you'd like, every little bit helps keep the doors of the cafe open so's we can have discussions like this...

If you need any other details or have any questions about Paypal, I've put some links in the threads over there... If you feel squeamish about 'online payments' I'd be happy to forward your checks to paw for you...

The main thing is, during this season of giving please take a couple of moments to send a few dollars paw's way as an expression of gratitude thanking him for all he's done for us.

May all of you have the most joyous of holiday seasons this year regardless of what holidays you observe!

...now back to our regularly scheduled discussion!

Edited December 20, 2007 by Tom Strange

[Linda Z]

OH P.S I don't run a Geerite fellowship

I'm sorry, but can you document that? That's your firsthand knowledge, you say? Well, I'm sorry, but you'll have to show proof.

[rhino]

OH P.S I don't run a Geerite fellowship

Do you attend a Geerite fellowship?

[Danny]

Sort of like College Coaches

When they say they are not going somewhere

just get the moving boxes out.

And a pen for the new contract.

After all of all the offshoots why name that one?

Edited December 20, 2007 by Danny

[WhiteDove]

Do you attend a Geerite fellowship?

No

[WhiteDove]

I'm sorry, but can you document that? That's your firsthand knowledge, you say? Well, I'm sorry, but you'll have to show proof.

Actually I can there are none in our city, You can contact Word Promotions and verify that. I'm not sure the one in Wichita is functioning and the next closest is in Kansas City I'd be happy to supply the name of a contact for that fellowship to you and you can verify that I do not attend there.

I got your point here's mine there is a vast difference in people speaking about routine things in life like for example what they ate for lunch, when they left for work and so forth and accusing someone of a serious charge or crime. Most people would have no reason to be untruthful about what they had for lunch, in less of course they were visiting their diet counselor maybe. But generally if someone says they went to the store they most likely did. Serious charges and crimes generally require some merit,proof, as they have a personal effect on the person or organization.

Edited December 20, 2007 by WhiteDove

[doojable]

Is this really necessary?

I mean...at what point does the offended person become the offender? I understand the need to process and work out event's of the past.

But, does processing in this way give anyone license to start a new wound that will someday need to be opened up - and the "process of healing" begun anew?

I mean no disrespect to anyone. I'm just thinking out loud here...

[rascal]

I don`t get you Dooj.

Who in your opinion is the offender and who is the offendee?

Sometimes there is just more going on than what is readily apparent on the surface.

Sometimes God is at work in a particular way for a particular person at a particular time...and everybody looking on, is NOT necessarily going to understand.

That is why we need all of us ....our input, our understanding, our unique pov`s aquired from the path of learning God has guided each of us down since departing twi :)

Edited December 20, 2007 by rascal

[doojable]

Rascal - Like I said, I meant no disrespect.

I understand processing. I understand that when the offending party refuses to ask for forgiveness - or even to engage in a dialogue - that requires the hurt person to process things in a different way. Work it out, so to speak. I believe that were LCM (or any other leader that made greivous mistakes and taught evil doctrines) to spend some time with their feet to the fire and really listen, and even ask for forgiveness - that that would go a long way to helping the process go on in a healthy manner. BUT- that just ain't gonna happen - or at least it hasn't happened yet. That means that a different kind of dialogue is going on - and it's a longer process.

I've been pretty clear in most of my posts regarding anyone that says, "Get over it..." You know that.

I just see the potential for even more offence if White Dove is going to be "given a dose of his own medicine."

So he can get offended because someone was offended with him to begin with.

There is some real potential for this to look like a middle school playground fight (He said... Well SHE did that first.... NO HE started it....BUT it was really that other guy who started it and then we all took sides...)

Will it end?

I wasn't making a judgemental statement, though I see how it can be taken that way. Like I said - I was thinking out loud.

[JeffSjo]

I've shared with WD very plainly that I haven't liked what WD's done, and I have been even more riled by Pond yesterday. But when I think about them on my own time I feel differently than my posts show.

I wonder if WD was very close to the events of years past, if so then how much could WD help a person who's all wounded by events in the past or present. What I'm saying is that even though I've confronted very specific behavior I'm still looking for WD's best.

I'd rather go to bat on WD's behalf than against WD. That goes for pretty much anyone as far as I can think right off hand.

I don't think "giving it right back" to WD will help anyone here at all.

[rascal]

I didn`t take it as judgemental dooj...honestly, I am just trying to understand. I am all about trying to see the bigger picture.

I still don`t understand what you are saying though....who do you want to be quiet? The people offending John and Dove? John and dove?

I am honestly perplexed as to who in your opinion is the offender.

Who do you want to be silent? I don`t think that John or Dove intend to... Do the rest of us not talk about what happened because it offends those who want to hold fast to their beliefs?? Or that it isn`t pleasant to hear about and remember??? Do we allow people to claim that our experiences never really happened?

Who honestly knows which post might open the crack in that armor that will allow the love of God to shine through....

There is a lot of healing and understanding going on here in spite of the active obstruction by those who wish to silence those who suffered under the atrocities committed by this ministry and the doctrines used to justify and sanctify the behavior.

All I am saying is, don`t discount the good that is occuring here, or the value of any poster simply because it isn`t readily apparent to everyone.

Seriously...this is a growing process for all of us....I believe that with all of my heart.

Edited December 20, 2007 by rascal

[doojable]

Rascal - I don't want ANYONE to be quiet. Silence only makes it all worst.

[rascal]

JeffSjo.... Don`t let folks rile you friend

You show a lot of compassion in your posts...just keep presenting that ..it`s your style, and you just never know who will be touched by it.

Some times if people are really ornery or who post for no other reason than to discredit simply need to be ignored.

I figure each of us is in need of God`s continued grace and healing....we never know when we are a part of someone elses healing...when our words typed are just the words needed to put the pieces together for another.

Sometimes, the poster I find the absolute most irritating to me personally, I find out later will have been the very one that provided the blessing and healing for another :)

I have also found to my shock that the leaders that I adored, the ones that I had pegged as the *good guys* were indeed another posters nightmare in twi....

Everyones perspective is valued by me (yes really) :)

Edited December 20, 2007 by rascal

[JeffSjo]

Thanks rascal

Never cared for bullies.

I've liked it even less when I realized that I was the bully.

[rascal]

OK Dooj, I am glad, I really am trying to understand. Maybe this is my time to shut up and assume that it is for somebody elses understanding...I don`t necessarily have to get it :)

Peace?

[rascal]

I didn`t see you as a bully at all Jeff...I saw you as being rightiously indignant, offended at the treatment of a brother or sister in Christ by folks who claim to be of the same body.

The behavior is indeed bewildering. In pointing out how offensive, one would hope that the person willing to hurt would consider the words spoken....maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow...but maybe someday it will make sense.

In the mean time the trick as I see it (this is not posted to you JeffSjo...but for myself) is to post ones thoughts, and try not to get dragged too far off on a tangent that will only annoy and bore everyone else reading :)

(granted an area that I struggle with personally lol)

Edited December 20, 2007 by rascal

[WhiteDove]

I am honestly perplexed as to who in your opinion is the offender Who is the offender and who is the offendee?

Without starting another battle I believe that I am the intended offender and you are the offendee or hero Rascal. I think her point is that for all the back and forth, in the end of however many pages it takes to wear out, leaves us at the same point when the first two posts were made........ on different sides of the issue.

[rascal]

I don`t know it could be me too...I understand how irritating it is when we go back and forth.

I am at a loss as to how all of us can participate here without the free exchange of thoughts and ideas, without it offending someone.

It`d be really nice if we could all post our points without attempting to discredit one another, or without the back handed snipes.

[Eyesopen]

Without starting another battle I believe that I am the intended offender and you are the offendee or hero Rascal. I think her point is that for all the back and forth, in the end of however many pages it takes to wear out, leaves us at the same point when the first two posts were made........ on different sides of the issue.

I kind of think that she was presenting a hypothetical situation or a view from the proverbial "other side" of the coin. Much like one man's freedom fighter is another man's traitor.

Both WD and Rascal make valid points. But sometimes we get so emotional about the words that we read on the computer screen we may temporarily forget that a person is on the other side of that screen and that person can be offended just as easily as the one reading his/her words.

It is clear, at least to me that for now WD and Rascal have opposing or vastly different points of view concerning many issues. But on some issues, although they see them differently they do agree with the bottom line. Both views, or rather all views are important and should be seen and evaluated by each individual to determine if they should be kept, shelved for later review or simply discarded. That is how we heal and grow.

That is just one shark's opinion.

[WhiteDove]

I've shared with WD very plainly that I haven't liked what WD's done, and I have been even more riled by Pond yesterday. But when I think about them on my own time I feel differently than my posts show.

I wonder if WD was very close to the events of years past, if so then how much could WD help a person who's all wounded by events in the past or present. What I'm saying is that even though I've confronted very specific behavior I'm still looking for WD's best.

I'd rather go to bat on WD's behalf than against WD. That goes for pretty much anyone as far as I can think right off hand.

I don't think "giving it right back" to WD will help anyone here at all.

.Jeff I wanted to acknowledge your words here today, for the record I never saw you as a bully either, just stating your opinion It differs from mine but that's fine with me. It's yours not mine. I'm cool with that......

Your right about the giving it right back" to WD won't help anyone here at all. But I'm a big boy and can take it. it rolls away just like the dirty dishes did at Emporia. And I will never back down from that which is truth, it did not work when people tried in The Way, and it won't work here either. For me everyone starts out at point zero, from there they move one way or the other on their own merit, Others opinion good or bad of them don't move them I require truth to do that,