I know there are exceptions here.. but with the current track record.. what I am starting to think..
don't trust ANYBODY in an offshoot.
Many have too much invested in der verd as it hath not been known since the earth cooled.. can't "contaminate" vic's heritage and word with a little dose of reality.
Maybe they want to leave "something standing" in the harvest time of life.. but an outhouse by any other name is still an outhouse.
The reason I started this thread is because some of us have been studying about offence and how offence is a trap of the enemy. I realize this is not a topic people normally get up and applaud you for and shake your hand after the sermon. I don't expect people to get up and run up and down aisles and shout "Glory Hallelujah" - but if one is willing to do what the Word of God says then you might run and shout later because it will keep you from getting trapped and under the enemy’s control.
Another reason I started this topic is because some of us recognize offence is a device or tool the enemy uses to control people. But we also know we have been delivered from the control of the enemy when we recognize the devices and the tools that he uses to control us. The reason I know many are being controlled is because they keep bringing up offenses that happened to them many, many years ago – like they happened yesterday afternoon. The Word of God instructs us not to give place to the devil, and I recognize this is one area where many people give place to him.
Basically offence is something that causes one to stumble. If you look it up in the bible it means a stumbling stone, it also means bait - like bait on a mousetrap. It's something that lures one into a trap - like bait is intended to do. The only way to stay out of the trap is one must first recognize the bait so they won't get into the trap. The Word of God says we have been delivered from Satan's control, yet many fail to recognize the devices and tools the devil uses to control them as well as to control others. The way to stay out of that trap is for you to stay free of offence in your heart - keeping a clear heart free from offence toward other believers (and other people in general) and living above what is commonly called offence.
Satan traps people whenever they are in offence. We should believe the Word of God whether or not it appears like a person got trapped or not. It might not seem like, well, so-and-so didn't have any ill effects. Well I don't want to them to and I'm not praying for them that they do. That's not my heart for them. But it is affecting their life. For example: I can't treat you nice and then treat your children mean and have it be all right with you. The way I would treat your children would affect your relationship and my relationship between each other. The same thing is true of God - in that you have done it unto the least of my brethren, you have done it unto me. So then, it's not possible to maintain good fellowship (I didn't say relationship, as we are all related through the blood of Jesus Christ on legal grounds) but I'm talking about fellowship. It's not possible to maintain good fellowship and live in offence toward other believers. The Word says simply if we can't live in love with our brother, then how is it possible to love God? We don't love God if we don't love our brother. Now that's cutting it real tight, but it's right.
It's not always an outward reaction that people demonstrate when they are in offence. Sometimes it's an inward seething, an inward anger - it's the silent treatment, things like that. A person can have offense in their heart and they aren't displaying it outwardly. It's a condition of the heart, and there are things the Word of God tells us we should avoid getting into our heart. Psalm 119:165 says: "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." You can't claim you love God and still be living in offence toward others - because the Word of God says NOTHING will offend those who love His law, who love His Word. Nothing can offend those who love God's Word. Nothing can offend them, trip them or trap them because they are free from Satan's control.
Am I expecting everyone to agree with me on God's Word? No, because I already know not everyone agrees with the Word of God. That's never been a surprise to me. I am just saying what the Word of God says, that it is possible to live free from offence. But I also realize those who do believe God's Word have picked up a lot of bad spiritual habits. It's a bad spiritual habit to get into - to grab onto offence whenever somebody has wronged you.
Now some people have already responded on this thread and on this topic like I WAS PERSONALLY ADDRESSING THEM! They must think that I am saying all of this to personally get to them - just like they are the guilty party. Now I know people can teach things that aren’t the Word of God, but if something is taught from the bible and we didn’t like it and we think, well, he’s just saying that to me and he’s trying to get to me, well how would I know whether or not it was you or somebody else who was offended?
I think some people must live on the 'sticky side of Velcro’, because they'll grab onto any offence whenever it comes. Well you don't have to be the "sticky side of Velcro" all your life! Some bad thought comes along and they just grab onto it with their mind. Maybe some people were raised that way, where they learned to live in offence with the people they were related to. They are always taking the offence and then talking about someone, always bitter toward somebody so it's a harder habit for them to break. But one can still break it, because if you love the Word of God enough then you won't be offended and nothing will offend you. It's really not worth it, as the offence not only separates you from people, but it also separates you from God.
Now the bible says offences will come, just as Matthew 18:7 says, but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! A lot of people think they can find some place here upon earth, or some other church or some other relationship where they can live and be free of offences, yet the Word of God tells us that offences will come. Yet most people believe if someone does something to offend me then I'll go somewhere else - I'll find another church or I’ll find another relationship with someone in whom I won't be offended with.
I know what some people are thinking. You're thinking, well I love people just like the bible teaches me to. I’m not offended because I don't have a problem with anybody here or anybody else. OK, so you're someone who's not offended. Perhaps that is because you don't know someone well enough or you're not close enough for someone to do anything to offend you. Real love begins when you know someone well enough and your close enough to them that they do something you need to love them for.
Now that I am past this point I want to go on to: How to deal with the offended person. How do you deal with someone who has offended you or an offended person that is in your life? We all know that we can control our own life, but we can't control the lives of other people. Now some people might be here to judge others and also to judge their brother or sister in Christ, but you can't control whether they are offended or not. I'm not here to control others and whether they are offended. I can't do any of that ... I don't have the power to do that and neither do you nor anybody else. In other words, we can't control others if they choose to be offended. We can't control any of that. The Word of God says, as much as lieth in you to live peaceably with all men. (Romans 12:18)
I’ll readily admit there are people - even other believers who aren't in fellowship with me today. Why, because they are offended. But then it usually is with someone who is in authority that we are offended with, and it doesn’t have to be a spiritual leader. It could even be your boss at work or some other authority. The Word of God gives instructions on how to deal with that, but not everyone wants to live according to those instructions. Ever notice how there are some people who live to tell you all about what somebody did to them or what someone did to somebody else? Some people must think that your ear is their trash can. So how does one deal with all of that?
That's what I wanted to get to. How to deal with all that, because sometimes people are still holding onto things - things that happened to them long ago and you can't control any of that. Sometimes I wonder if people majored in it – they got their "Doctorate" in it - because they appear to be living in offence all the time. If they're not already offended by something that someone did unto them, then they’ll pick up on something that someone did to somebody else just so they can be offended by it. Now they are offended by that person just because that person treated somebody else wrong. Some people don't know how to live without offence. Sometimes I think it must be the best friend they ever had. It's always with them like their best friend.
Here's a basic scripture to start with, Matthew 18:15
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him (many times we prefer to tell somebody else other than the one who offended us) his fault between thee and him alone; if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother."
Notice this verse says you are to tell them their fault between you and them alone, not between another person. But it also says, and IF he shall hear thee. The goal of course is the last part of that verse - thou hast gained thy brother. The goal here is a restoration of fellowship. Satan is the author of division and offence divides. That is the reason why its one of his tools and devices. It separates believers. It separates families, and it separates loved ones. The goal again is to restore the fellowship that you once had because this offence or this wrong has broken the fellowship you once had.
Notice that verse also says IF he will hear you. Of course what that means is that sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. But the thing I wanted to point out from this verse is the goal - that's the main thing. The goal is restoration of fellowship. So if you are looking to regain the fellowship you had with them then you have to go directly to the person - to the source itself.
Jesus Christ is telling you how to do it - to face it head on. Don't just stay away from the person who offended you and say, "Well, they're upset at me." No, you go talk to them. If you haven't talked to someone in awhile then thoughts creep in about what you think they are doing, about what they are thinking or perhaps even how they think about you. When you go talk to someone it usually breaks that all down. Get to know the person all over again. The bible doesn't say for you to wait for the person who has offend you to come to you and say that they are sorry - it says - YOU GO TO THEM.
The reason they won't come to you is because often the person who offended you doesn't realize they did or said something to you that was offensive, or that they did something that hurt you. So they will never come to you simply because they don't realize they treated you wrong. Now maybe they should come to you and you think that they should, but that's beside the point. Just don't seethe there yourself and just get angrier at them simply because they aren’t showing up on your doorstep or calling you up on the phone to apologize and thereby separating yourself even further from them. Go to that person and talk about it. Its best if you go to them shortly after the offence happened and not years later. Satan is always trying to bring division between people.
We are to seek restoration of fellowship because that is the goal. But the person who only wants to separate is the one who is wrong spirited. Separation is a wrong spirit, and we’re not supposed to be wrong spirited. The reason that it is a wrong spirit is because according to the Word of God we're to have the goal of restoring our fellowship with each other – not that of separation. The sin is to let it go un-confronted. Even mature believers don't often deal with things the way the Word of God instructs us to deal with them, and when that happens then the situation only worsens.
Well I know what you’re thinking - and it's a good question. That is, "What if the person who offended me doesn't want to respond?" The next verse tells you what to do - take one or two more with you so that every word can be established. Take some other people with you who know what the situation is and what is going on. Anytime you take a contention to someone who is not aware of it or who's not any kind of an authority to do anything about it, then it only makes the situation worse because you have only increased and spread the strife between you and the other person.
In the mouth of two or three witnesses is an Old Testament reference talking about someone who brings an accusation against an elder or leader in the nation of Israel. The Old Testament instruction was: against an elder receive not an accusation, but in the mouth of two or three witnesses. In other words, just one person shooting their mouth off and blabbing against a leader was something to be ignored – it was not to be listened to. Then it says if someone brings a false witness or accusation and they wanted to have the leader removed or have some kind of penalty brought against the leader, and if it was found to be false evidence, then the person who brought the false evidence or accusation was to have that happen to them that they wanted to have done to the leader.
Was this procedure always followed in TWI? Maybe at times it was and maybe at times it was not. But if that person or that leader who offended you has been or was removed from a position of authority in your life, why are you still holding onto their offence? If you’re still holding onto it then you are still placing yourself under their control because their offence is still controlling you. The question you need to ask yourself is this: Am I just following men or am I truly following God? If you are following men, then their faults and their offences will only become a trap for you, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But if you’re someone who is following God, then nothing will or should offend you just as Psalm 119:165 says. But you’re putting yourself in opposition to the Lords work if you are someone who is just spreading false accusations about someone else. Even if the accusation is true, you still don’t have any business shooting your mouth off spreading it.
I know of a minister (they’re not affiliated with TWI – it was with Oral Roberts I believe) who was accused of sexual impropriety, was living in sin and got caught. Someone went to the media about it and they stuck a camera and a microphone in his face and said, “What do you think about all of this?” They simply answered, “Its family business.”
Now if someone in your own family messes up and does something, they fall into sin you don’t get up in front of everybody or get on the news media and talk about everything. If a person is walking in love then they need to be very cautious before they step out and say things, before you side in with an accuser. Now I don’t know all that went on or still goes on with them, because I don’t live with them. I have also heard about a well known minister living in Tulsa accused of impropriety, but I am not here blabbing to you about all of that because I don’t know all the details about it, as I don’t live in Tulsa or any of that. Of the things I do know it’s a misunderstanding.
The thing is, just don’t listen to all the accusations because you are doing more of a disservice to the body of Christ than a Godly service. Now I’m not saying they are innocent on everything because I don’t know all the details. But I am not here to say they are guilty either. People shouldn’t be tried in the “court of our opinion” anyway.
But what about dealing with the person who has been offended. How do you approach that situation? Galatians 6:1 says, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” Wow! Again the goal is restoration, just like what is also stated in Matthew 18. But here it talks about restoring someone in the spirit of meekness. Division and separation does not follow a spirit of meekness, it follows some other spirit. Another qualification here is, ‘ye which are spiritual’. People who just want to be in strife with other people are not spiritually qualified to restore anyone. But those who want to restore people are the spiritual ones. Again the goal is to restore someone who has fallen into a fault or an offense and this would include being offended.
How can you tell if someone who went to restore someone is really spiritual or not? It’s easy. You can tell because it depends on whether or not that person fell into the offence themselves when they went to restore someone. That’s right. If you’re truly spiritual you won’t pick up that persons offence and start blabbing about it to everybody you know about what somebody did to someone you know. That only proves you’re not spiritually qualified to restore someone because you fell into the trap and the offence yourself.
Now some people think they are doing God a favor and are being spiritual for making other peoples offences known to others, but the true God never leads one by or through offence – so what god are they working for? That could be difficult for many people to figure out, because it indicates they are still offended and have not yet learned how to deal with and overcome offences.
I know what many of you are thinking. You’re thinking; “You’re a fine example WTH of how to deal with and overcome offences!” I am not claiming to be an expert and that this is an area where I don’t have any difficulties myself. It’s just that I know the truth of what the Word of God says in this area. Just because someone happens to know the truth doesn’t make or imply that this is an area where anybody has perfected themselves or become an expert at it themselves. But that is often the impression we get and are left with when someone teaches us the truth of God’s Word in some area. When they don’t live up to it themselves, then what happens? Why, we get offended. What else is new?
Personally, the thing that irks me the most along these lines is that the one who was abused and needs loving support the most, is most likely the one to be put off seeking loving support by unreasonable and mean-spirited comments like WHITE DOVE is prone to make.
Jeff I guess you missed this beneficial help:
Quote Potato: at this point he serves another service to me, and that is regaining some of the acuity of thought that withered away with neglect in twi. where I was required to swallow in twi, I can question and analyze here and everywhere else I'm privileged to go.
If I do understand potato's comments correctly they refered to her being able to overcome your negative influence white dove.
I'm glad that she's able to deal with that kind of thing here, whether the offending comments come from you, me, or anyone else.
My advice to you white dove is to aim for remarks that potato doesn't have to overcome like that. At this point, my reaction to you white dove, when you do that, will stay consistent.
Dear What the Hey,
Thank you for clarifying your intentions with this topic.
I'm going to comment, but I feel like this is going nowhere....
No WD. What you're communicating (maybe without intent) is that you stand for something you can believe. That isn't necessarily TRUTH per se. You are still treating this like it is a court of law. You're neither counsellor, jury, nor judge in this matter. No one is on trial here.
Personally..............I gotta tell ya........I find all this talk about WD's "standard for truths/facts" to be off-the-charts of ridiculously absurd......
Why?
If WD is running a Geerite fellowship, and therefore NOT standing with twi........TWI LABELS WD POZZEZZED / A COP-OUT / A GREASESPOT.
SEE........twi uses the SAME TACTIC AGAINST HIM......i.e. they ASSUME their "standard" is THE STANDARD.
Twi cannot be convinced otherwise........WD is a cop-out.
WD cannot be convinced otherwise.........all postings & eye-witness accounts need written proof.
Whatever.......it's like a cyclical argument. It just spins and spins.....depending on "the spinner."
WTH, I have a suggestion for you to further your Biblical studies on the topic of offences. Read Ezekiel 34. Many times people can quote scripture, sound so holy, and yet never be further from the truth. The major point of logic you are missing in your Biblical studies is that offences that happen between believers are vastly different than offences that happen under the guise of spiritual authority.
God doesn’t say in Ezekiel 34 “Woe unto the sheep who have not been cared for and are hungry, scattered, and injured. They are living under offence. They need to get over their offence so as not to be controlled by the enemy”. “Woe unto the sheep that bleat because they are hurt. They are not doing God a favor by bleating, and don’t understand that I never lead sheep by their bleating”. “Woe unto the other sheep that bleat in sympathy with the injured sheep”. “Woe unto Ezekiel who is speaking these words, as he is promoting strife and division. He is not spiritually qualified to restore anyone. He should remain quiet and not repeat the sins of the shepherd to anyone, but sweep them under the carpet.”
It is not the sheep’s fault. It is not the voice of the account of the sheep’s mistreatment’s fault. It is the shepherds’ fault. The shepherds fed themselves, and not the sheep. God apparently has somewhat of a problem with that if you read Ezekiel 34.
v. 18 and 19 are intriguing:
“Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.”
Apparantly God doesn’t want people to belittle, hide, or deny the abuse. Also, the solution doesn’t seem to be to instruct the sheep to bleat in silence so nobody else hears. The hope seems to be when the fat-headed shepherds are tossed out and God brings in a new shepherd like David who will turn things around. Perhaps that is figurative and only available at the return with the Chief Shepherd. Perhaps it’s available today too.
Either way, the Ezek 34 solution is in v. 22 – 31:
“Ezekiel 34:22-31 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.”
Now that someone has taught you the truth of the Word, are you still going to lecture people?
everyone is a victim today more than ever it is popular to wear your wounds as a badge to hurt others.
we all can think of the sad tale of the time that went so bad for somone it has to be told and retold and retold for zero profit only more bitterness and strife continues to spin off making more victims.
this is what i know
the holy bible says to stop being a liar, to tell the truth to one another.
does that mean tell all? I think not again where is the love in telling a stale old crusty wound like a scab that will never heal?
the holy scripture says a merry heart is medicine not a wounded bleeding stabbing bitter heart.
carry what you chose in life.
as far as the sheep story by chockfull that was written to isreal and they are not son and daughters of God they were servants, no He doesnt love them less , they lived under the law they are not sons and daughters times changed with Jesus we are not sheep we are not to be compared to what God displyed for them things changed with the grace of Jesus Christ and the power of HOLY Spirt within.
and that is why and how the bible is used to wound and hurt people.
but as you deny and not me and well i have a good reason and purpose for hurting others with my own pain.. remember above all, God hears your words and all will stand accountable for them before the very throne of Jesus Christ, i pray i truly pray i can and will use my words for wisdom not bitter and defeat.
Her nasty, unloving rival provoked her daily. At the time of her prayer she was "bitter souled."
Just work it if you don't believe me.
God gave her a child.
My patience can be streched a little thin by cold hearted, over analytical, Scripture quoters who think saying " put away bitterness" is a good answer.
As far as taking shot's at the wounded goes, POND, maybe just open your ears and nothing else for right now.
After all I can't imagine why anyone could take a lesson from the O.T. on shepherding and dare think it could apply to pastors.
After all, the word pastor is only another translation of shepherd. Since J.C. himself is the good shepherd, of course it's o.k. to rebuke the wounded now. J.C. himself surely wouldn't want us to learn from his own example. What good could come from that. (that was sarcasm)
Good biblical workmanship pond, and what a heart.(sarcasm here intended)
as far as the sheep story by chockfull that was written to isreal and they are not son and daughters of God they were servants, no He doesnt love them less , they lived under the law they are not sons and daughters times changed with Jesus we are not sheep we are not to be compared to what God displyed for them things changed with the grace of Jesus Christ and the power of HOLY Spirt within.
and that is why and how the bible is used to wound and hurt people.
Apparantly you haven't read Rom. 8:30 - you know, the one right before calling us "more than conquerors"? And also have missed Hebrews 13:20 Hebrews "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"
You probably also missed the whole context of VPW's Foundational Class, which the theme verse is John 10:10, and the context talks about Jesus, the good shepherd, and his sheep.
I guess Jesus must have been using the bible to wound and hurt people when he drew the same analogy of himself as a shepherd and believers as sheep.
And I'm sure you must have overlooked I Peter 2:25 - "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls"
But hey, look on the bright side. Your powers of wrongly dividing administrations and ignoring truth outside of the Grace Administration to justify spiritual abuse, and shift the blame away from leaders who hurt people on to the people and those who speak up against it probably displays some of the leadership qualities that abusive organizations actively seek.
Best of wishes with all that.
Oh, and fyi I have a very merry heart. It's overjoyed and all healed up from the past abuses I've suffered because I've been able to get to the truth of the Word rather than living in denial. I can call it what it is, allow vengeance to be the Lord's, and move on in life with a light heart. No delusions to weigh me down.
As far as Hannah God the message is a constant that God loves us no doubt about it in my thinking. I do not play the game of who is who in the storys of the bible or indeed in the very body of christ the fact is God is LOVE. no surprise for me.
are you saying be bitter and all your dreams will come true just look at Hannah? yeah good luck with that .the thing about bitterness is it really only bothers those who taste it doesnt it?
and the thing about wrath it really only tears up those who want to go for that type of thinking i promise you VPW is NOT getting hurt because someone trashes him on a web site decades after he died.
so who is this helping?
who is it hurting?
well from the cries and victims here i think it answers itself enough.
I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..
That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..
I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.
On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..
I became, and am becoming what could have been..
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
but still the past is part of me.
Rascal got the black belt..
"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..
That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..
I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.
On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..
I became, and am becoming what could have been..
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
but still the past is part of me.
Rascal got the black belt..
"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
Oh, and fyi I have a very merry heart. It's overjoyed and all healed up from the past abuses I've suffered because I've been able to get to the truth of the Word rather than living in denial. I can call it what it is, allow vengeance to be the Lord's, and move on in life with a light heart. No delusions to weigh me down.
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
Well done Mr. Hamm!
Rascal got the black belt..
I feel like I have indeed moved forward since leaving :)
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
That is how it has appeared to me as well.
There are a lot of folks that went back to school and got their education, started successful businesses and careers.
I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..
That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..
I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.
On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..
I became, and am becoming what could have been..
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
but still the past is part of me.
Rascal got the black belt..
"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
Personally I am always glad to see people do things they want to , Mr. squirrel are you saying that to do that you have to do one or the other? I have started a business since leaving the way, Worked in the community with animals, I'm president of the dog bark board. I just curated a exhibit at a local gallery of Coca Cola memorabilia that I have collected for years. and a few other endeavors as well. I say this not to highlight my involvement but to say just because you are active in an offshoot (your term) does not mean you can't have or do whatever you want in life I don't see it as an either or. rarely does any of this get in the way of having a fellowship for me and if there is a conflict then it is resolved one way or another by shifting a date here or there. Having a spiritual commitment does not to me mean I don't get to have a life, but in the end all those things are like Paul said of little importance. I'm proud of the success of my business and the things I have done but they are just things they will pass with life. The other will not.
Hello WhatTheHey!..........fyi, and for the record here at the greasespot cafe, please allow me to quote from a post to whitedove i posted on a different thread, on a somewhat related topic to this thread........
"......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly that god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!!
of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!"
"One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims.
after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out!
another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!"
I made almost the same, exact statements i quoted above to twi's lawyers during several hours of depositions i made "under oath" to them in several different conversations i had with them during 1999, during the discovery phase of their preparations for the trial that was to take place in sidney, oh, in november of 1999,
regarding the lawsuit against twi, lcm and twi's bot brought by paul and fern a--en. the lawyers repeatedly asked me if i was "willing to testify to the same in court", to which i replied, "gladly! just name the time and place!"..........on the day before i was to fly to ohio to appear as a witness for the plaintiffs in that lawsuit, i received a phone call from the plaintiff's lawyer, informing me that twi had "suddenly decided" to settle the lawsuit "out of court", and that it would not be necessary for me to fly to ohio after all!.......apparently, twi's lawyers had convinced their clients that, it would be "better" for twi if the testimony that was to be presented against them in that court case would not become a matter of "public record" !.........so, in order to "protect the ministry" which "god had given them", lcm and twi's bot decided that, indeed, "discretion" would be the better part of "valor".......they chose to "settle the matter" "out of court".........i am not privvy to all the details of that settlement, nor do i care to be..........but, i am thrilled to know, that, the testimony i was prepared to give, and the specific FACTS contained in the depositions i had made, helped force martindale's "resignation" as twi's president in april, 2000!.........i know for a FACT, that martindale and twi were unable to deny the FACTS i presented in those depositions, some of which i quoted above!.........as i said, those were just a few paragraphs from several hours of depositions twi's lawyer's took from me.........i was never deposed by paul and fern's attorney!..........
the out-of-court settlement allowed twi to put all the spin they could on their "handling" of martindale's resignation.......remember........their initial spin was that the lawsuit they had just settled, revolved around a "one time consensual affair" martindale admitted to having, and yada, yada, yada..........which lcm, rosie, the then twi bot knew was a total cover-up of what was really going on in twi's "inner circle", not only at that time, but for many years previous!!.......the judge's ruling is a matter of public record.........interesting to note how much the judge thought rosie and the boyz knew, and how long they had known it!!.......since it was settled out-of-court, i'm sure twi paid a lot of abs in high-priced legal fees for their lawyers to help them in their commitment to absolute "discretion"..........even with all that expensive legal assistance, twi could not prevent the second lawsuit, by january kau----n, which kinda debunked the "one time consensual affair" myth that martindale admitted to.........to prevent the impending flood of FACTS and legal truths that was imminent, twi was forced to "let craig go", drop him from active corps, etc., etc., etc.,............in september of 2000!.........so, apparently the FACTS some feel they need "proof" of were given to twi's lawyer's, who, it seems, thought it a good idea for twi to settle out of court after reviewing those FACTS,,,,,and the judge thought them good enough to settle the case in paul and fern's favor........and twi thought them good enough to pay top dollar to keep them out of the public record so those of you who would really benefit from seeing them, can't do so!!.....unverifiable, WD???.........not for the lawyers, or the judge in sidney who ruled on that case!
so..........i applaud all those who have posted the FACTS of their abuse at the hands of twi's "leaders" here!......i am thankful that they've had the courage to post those FACTS here.......and that Pawtucket keeps this place open so those FACTS and thousands more can be posted here for all to see, for as long as there are courageous folks willing to expose themselves to the frosty, compassionless, attacks of those who refuse to acknowlege the veracity of those witnesses!.......in the end, i believe that what goes around comes around, and usually, THE TRUE FACTS all come out in the wash!!.....imho, wth,.....the greatest "offence" is that lcm, rosie, twi and all of it's offshoots, still believe they owe no one any apologies!...........they see no need for their repentance before god and the lord jesus christ!..........they cling viciously to their evil, perverse, doctrines of men.......deluding themselves with their "present truth", "prevailing word", "personal prophecy", "liberating ministries", "biblical research", "bible classes", "deliverance sessions", ad infinitum, ad nauseum, into thinking that they've each got "god's calling" to "teach the word as it has'nt been known since the first century"!!!...........ferociously fighting "the adversary" and all his minions, to keep the legacy of an alcoholic, pathological liar, sociopathic sexual predator, immoral, and unrepentant, "man of god", who had the brazen audacity to present himself to the world as "the teacher",....alive and well!..........to continue burning holes in the souls of innocent seekers in the name of their false gods!!..........just my opinion........for what it's worth..........they are the true voices of offence, to god and humanity!!.................................peace.
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JeffSjo
Unlike others, My strategy is out here in the light, where everyone can see and judge for themselves.
I've gotta go real soon. I'll just leave you guys to work it out.
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Ham
I know there are exceptions here.. but with the current track record.. what I am starting to think..
don't trust ANYBODY in an offshoot.
Many have too much invested in der verd as it hath not been known since the earth cooled.. can't "contaminate" vic's heritage and word with a little dose of reality.
Maybe they want to leave "something standing" in the harvest time of life.. but an outhouse by any other name is still an outhouse.
Nothing a bucket of lime won't fix.
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What The Hey
The reason I started this thread is because some of us have been studying about offence and how offence is a trap of the enemy. I realize this is not a topic people normally get up and applaud you for and shake your hand after the sermon. I don't expect people to get up and run up and down aisles and shout "Glory Hallelujah" - but if one is willing to do what the Word of God says then you might run and shout later because it will keep you from getting trapped and under the enemy’s control.
Another reason I started this topic is because some of us recognize offence is a device or tool the enemy uses to control people. But we also know we have been delivered from the control of the enemy when we recognize the devices and the tools that he uses to control us. The reason I know many are being controlled is because they keep bringing up offenses that happened to them many, many years ago – like they happened yesterday afternoon. The Word of God instructs us not to give place to the devil, and I recognize this is one area where many people give place to him.
Basically offence is something that causes one to stumble. If you look it up in the bible it means a stumbling stone, it also means bait - like bait on a mousetrap. It's something that lures one into a trap - like bait is intended to do. The only way to stay out of the trap is one must first recognize the bait so they won't get into the trap. The Word of God says we have been delivered from Satan's control, yet many fail to recognize the devices and tools the devil uses to control them as well as to control others. The way to stay out of that trap is for you to stay free of offence in your heart - keeping a clear heart free from offence toward other believers (and other people in general) and living above what is commonly called offence.
Satan traps people whenever they are in offence. We should believe the Word of God whether or not it appears like a person got trapped or not. It might not seem like, well, so-and-so didn't have any ill effects. Well I don't want to them to and I'm not praying for them that they do. That's not my heart for them. But it is affecting their life. For example: I can't treat you nice and then treat your children mean and have it be all right with you. The way I would treat your children would affect your relationship and my relationship between each other. The same thing is true of God - in that you have done it unto the least of my brethren, you have done it unto me. So then, it's not possible to maintain good fellowship (I didn't say relationship, as we are all related through the blood of Jesus Christ on legal grounds) but I'm talking about fellowship. It's not possible to maintain good fellowship and live in offence toward other believers. The Word says simply if we can't live in love with our brother, then how is it possible to love God? We don't love God if we don't love our brother. Now that's cutting it real tight, but it's right.
It's not always an outward reaction that people demonstrate when they are in offence. Sometimes it's an inward seething, an inward anger - it's the silent treatment, things like that. A person can have offense in their heart and they aren't displaying it outwardly. It's a condition of the heart, and there are things the Word of God tells us we should avoid getting into our heart. Psalm 119:165 says: "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." You can't claim you love God and still be living in offence toward others - because the Word of God says NOTHING will offend those who love His law, who love His Word. Nothing can offend those who love God's Word. Nothing can offend them, trip them or trap them because they are free from Satan's control.
Am I expecting everyone to agree with me on God's Word? No, because I already know not everyone agrees with the Word of God. That's never been a surprise to me. I am just saying what the Word of God says, that it is possible to live free from offence. But I also realize those who do believe God's Word have picked up a lot of bad spiritual habits. It's a bad spiritual habit to get into - to grab onto offence whenever somebody has wronged you.
Now some people have already responded on this thread and on this topic like I WAS PERSONALLY ADDRESSING THEM! They must think that I am saying all of this to personally get to them - just like they are the guilty party. Now I know people can teach things that aren’t the Word of God, but if something is taught from the bible and we didn’t like it and we think, well, he’s just saying that to me and he’s trying to get to me, well how would I know whether or not it was you or somebody else who was offended?
I think some people must live on the 'sticky side of Velcro’, because they'll grab onto any offence whenever it comes. Well you don't have to be the "sticky side of Velcro" all your life! Some bad thought comes along and they just grab onto it with their mind. Maybe some people were raised that way, where they learned to live in offence with the people they were related to. They are always taking the offence and then talking about someone, always bitter toward somebody so it's a harder habit for them to break. But one can still break it, because if you love the Word of God enough then you won't be offended and nothing will offend you. It's really not worth it, as the offence not only separates you from people, but it also separates you from God.
Now the bible says offences will come, just as Matthew 18:7 says, but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! A lot of people think they can find some place here upon earth, or some other church or some other relationship where they can live and be free of offences, yet the Word of God tells us that offences will come. Yet most people believe if someone does something to offend me then I'll go somewhere else - I'll find another church or I’ll find another relationship with someone in whom I won't be offended with.
I know what some people are thinking. You're thinking, well I love people just like the bible teaches me to. I’m not offended because I don't have a problem with anybody here or anybody else. OK, so you're someone who's not offended. Perhaps that is because you don't know someone well enough or you're not close enough for someone to do anything to offend you. Real love begins when you know someone well enough and your close enough to them that they do something you need to love them for.
Now that I am past this point I want to go on to: How to deal with the offended person. How do you deal with someone who has offended you or an offended person that is in your life? We all know that we can control our own life, but we can't control the lives of other people. Now some people might be here to judge others and also to judge their brother or sister in Christ, but you can't control whether they are offended or not. I'm not here to control others and whether they are offended. I can't do any of that ... I don't have the power to do that and neither do you nor anybody else. In other words, we can't control others if they choose to be offended. We can't control any of that. The Word of God says, as much as lieth in you to live peaceably with all men. (Romans 12:18)
I’ll readily admit there are people - even other believers who aren't in fellowship with me today. Why, because they are offended. But then it usually is with someone who is in authority that we are offended with, and it doesn’t have to be a spiritual leader. It could even be your boss at work or some other authority. The Word of God gives instructions on how to deal with that, but not everyone wants to live according to those instructions. Ever notice how there are some people who live to tell you all about what somebody did to them or what someone did to somebody else? Some people must think that your ear is their trash can. So how does one deal with all of that?
That's what I wanted to get to. How to deal with all that, because sometimes people are still holding onto things - things that happened to them long ago and you can't control any of that. Sometimes I wonder if people majored in it – they got their "Doctorate" in it - because they appear to be living in offence all the time. If they're not already offended by something that someone did unto them, then they’ll pick up on something that someone did to somebody else just so they can be offended by it. Now they are offended by that person just because that person treated somebody else wrong. Some people don't know how to live without offence. Sometimes I think it must be the best friend they ever had. It's always with them like their best friend.
Here's a basic scripture to start with, Matthew 18:15
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him (many times we prefer to tell somebody else other than the one who offended us) his fault between thee and him alone; if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother."
Notice this verse says you are to tell them their fault between you and them alone, not between another person. But it also says, and IF he shall hear thee. The goal of course is the last part of that verse - thou hast gained thy brother. The goal here is a restoration of fellowship. Satan is the author of division and offence divides. That is the reason why its one of his tools and devices. It separates believers. It separates families, and it separates loved ones. The goal again is to restore the fellowship that you once had because this offence or this wrong has broken the fellowship you once had.
Notice that verse also says IF he will hear you. Of course what that means is that sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. But the thing I wanted to point out from this verse is the goal - that's the main thing. The goal is restoration of fellowship. So if you are looking to regain the fellowship you had with them then you have to go directly to the person - to the source itself.
Jesus Christ is telling you how to do it - to face it head on. Don't just stay away from the person who offended you and say, "Well, they're upset at me." No, you go talk to them. If you haven't talked to someone in awhile then thoughts creep in about what you think they are doing, about what they are thinking or perhaps even how they think about you. When you go talk to someone it usually breaks that all down. Get to know the person all over again. The bible doesn't say for you to wait for the person who has offend you to come to you and say that they are sorry - it says - YOU GO TO THEM.
The reason they won't come to you is because often the person who offended you doesn't realize they did or said something to you that was offensive, or that they did something that hurt you. So they will never come to you simply because they don't realize they treated you wrong. Now maybe they should come to you and you think that they should, but that's beside the point. Just don't seethe there yourself and just get angrier at them simply because they aren’t showing up on your doorstep or calling you up on the phone to apologize and thereby separating yourself even further from them. Go to that person and talk about it. Its best if you go to them shortly after the offence happened and not years later. Satan is always trying to bring division between people.
We are to seek restoration of fellowship because that is the goal. But the person who only wants to separate is the one who is wrong spirited. Separation is a wrong spirit, and we’re not supposed to be wrong spirited. The reason that it is a wrong spirit is because according to the Word of God we're to have the goal of restoring our fellowship with each other – not that of separation. The sin is to let it go un-confronted. Even mature believers don't often deal with things the way the Word of God instructs us to deal with them, and when that happens then the situation only worsens.
Well I know what you’re thinking - and it's a good question. That is, "What if the person who offended me doesn't want to respond?" The next verse tells you what to do - take one or two more with you so that every word can be established. Take some other people with you who know what the situation is and what is going on. Anytime you take a contention to someone who is not aware of it or who's not any kind of an authority to do anything about it, then it only makes the situation worse because you have only increased and spread the strife between you and the other person.
In the mouth of two or three witnesses is an Old Testament reference talking about someone who brings an accusation against an elder or leader in the nation of Israel. The Old Testament instruction was: against an elder receive not an accusation, but in the mouth of two or three witnesses. In other words, just one person shooting their mouth off and blabbing against a leader was something to be ignored – it was not to be listened to. Then it says if someone brings a false witness or accusation and they wanted to have the leader removed or have some kind of penalty brought against the leader, and if it was found to be false evidence, then the person who brought the false evidence or accusation was to have that happen to them that they wanted to have done to the leader.
Was this procedure always followed in TWI? Maybe at times it was and maybe at times it was not. But if that person or that leader who offended you has been or was removed from a position of authority in your life, why are you still holding onto their offence? If you’re still holding onto it then you are still placing yourself under their control because their offence is still controlling you. The question you need to ask yourself is this: Am I just following men or am I truly following God? If you are following men, then their faults and their offences will only become a trap for you, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But if you’re someone who is following God, then nothing will or should offend you just as Psalm 119:165 says. But you’re putting yourself in opposition to the Lords work if you are someone who is just spreading false accusations about someone else. Even if the accusation is true, you still don’t have any business shooting your mouth off spreading it.
I know of a minister (they’re not affiliated with TWI – it was with Oral Roberts I believe) who was accused of sexual impropriety, was living in sin and got caught. Someone went to the media about it and they stuck a camera and a microphone in his face and said, “What do you think about all of this?” They simply answered, “Its family business.”
Now if someone in your own family messes up and does something, they fall into sin you don’t get up in front of everybody or get on the news media and talk about everything. If a person is walking in love then they need to be very cautious before they step out and say things, before you side in with an accuser. Now I don’t know all that went on or still goes on with them, because I don’t live with them. I have also heard about a well known minister living in Tulsa accused of impropriety, but I am not here blabbing to you about all of that because I don’t know all the details about it, as I don’t live in Tulsa or any of that. Of the things I do know it’s a misunderstanding.
The thing is, just don’t listen to all the accusations because you are doing more of a disservice to the body of Christ than a Godly service. Now I’m not saying they are innocent on everything because I don’t know all the details. But I am not here to say they are guilty either. People shouldn’t be tried in the “court of our opinion” anyway.
But what about dealing with the person who has been offended. How do you approach that situation? Galatians 6:1 says, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” Wow! Again the goal is restoration, just like what is also stated in Matthew 18. But here it talks about restoring someone in the spirit of meekness. Division and separation does not follow a spirit of meekness, it follows some other spirit. Another qualification here is, ‘ye which are spiritual’. People who just want to be in strife with other people are not spiritually qualified to restore anyone. But those who want to restore people are the spiritual ones. Again the goal is to restore someone who has fallen into a fault or an offense and this would include being offended.
How can you tell if someone who went to restore someone is really spiritual or not? It’s easy. You can tell because it depends on whether or not that person fell into the offence themselves when they went to restore someone. That’s right. If you’re truly spiritual you won’t pick up that persons offence and start blabbing about it to everybody you know about what somebody did to someone you know. That only proves you’re not spiritually qualified to restore someone because you fell into the trap and the offence yourself.
Now some people think they are doing God a favor and are being spiritual for making other peoples offences known to others, but the true God never leads one by or through offence – so what god are they working for? That could be difficult for many people to figure out, because it indicates they are still offended and have not yet learned how to deal with and overcome offences.
I know what many of you are thinking. You’re thinking; “You’re a fine example WTH of how to deal with and overcome offences!” I am not claiming to be an expert and that this is an area where I don’t have any difficulties myself. It’s just that I know the truth of what the Word of God says in this area. Just because someone happens to know the truth doesn’t make or imply that this is an area where anybody has perfected themselves or become an expert at it themselves. But that is often the impression we get and are left with when someone teaches us the truth of God’s Word in some area. When they don’t live up to it themselves, then what happens? Why, we get offended. What else is new?
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Bumpy
WTH, No offense, but is this an X-Mess Message For Santa?
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WhiteDove
Jeff I guess you missed this beneficial help:
Quote Potato: at this point he serves another service to me, and that is regaining some of the acuity of thought that withered away with neglect in twi. where I was required to swallow in twi, I can question and analyze here and everywhere else I'm privileged to go.
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JeffSjo
If I do understand potato's comments correctly they refered to her being able to overcome your negative influence white dove.
I'm glad that she's able to deal with that kind of thing here, whether the offending comments come from you, me, or anyone else.
My advice to you white dove is to aim for remarks that potato doesn't have to overcome like that. At this point, my reaction to you white dove, when you do that, will stay consistent.
Dear What the Hey,
Thank you for clarifying your intentions with this topic.
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skyrider
Personally..............I gotta tell ya........I find all this talk about WD's "standard for truths/facts" to be off-the-charts of ridiculously absurd......
Why?
If WD is running a Geerite fellowship, and therefore NOT standing with twi........TWI LABELS WD POZZEZZED / A COP-OUT / A GREASESPOT.
SEE........twi uses the SAME TACTIC AGAINST HIM......i.e. they ASSUME their "standard" is THE STANDARD.
Twi cannot be convinced otherwise........WD is a cop-out.
WD cannot be convinced otherwise.........all postings & eye-witness accounts need written proof.
Whatever.......it's like a cyclical argument. It just spins and spins.....depending on "the spinner."
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chockfull
WTH, I have a suggestion for you to further your Biblical studies on the topic of offences. Read Ezekiel 34. Many times people can quote scripture, sound so holy, and yet never be further from the truth. The major point of logic you are missing in your Biblical studies is that offences that happen between believers are vastly different than offences that happen under the guise of spiritual authority.
God doesn’t say in Ezekiel 34 “Woe unto the sheep who have not been cared for and are hungry, scattered, and injured. They are living under offence. They need to get over their offence so as not to be controlled by the enemy”. “Woe unto the sheep that bleat because they are hurt. They are not doing God a favor by bleating, and don’t understand that I never lead sheep by their bleating”. “Woe unto the other sheep that bleat in sympathy with the injured sheep”. “Woe unto Ezekiel who is speaking these words, as he is promoting strife and division. He is not spiritually qualified to restore anyone. He should remain quiet and not repeat the sins of the shepherd to anyone, but sweep them under the carpet.”
It is not the sheep’s fault. It is not the voice of the account of the sheep’s mistreatment’s fault. It is the shepherds’ fault. The shepherds fed themselves, and not the sheep. God apparently has somewhat of a problem with that if you read Ezekiel 34.
v. 18 and 19 are intriguing:
“Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.”
Apparantly God doesn’t want people to belittle, hide, or deny the abuse. Also, the solution doesn’t seem to be to instruct the sheep to bleat in silence so nobody else hears. The hope seems to be when the fat-headed shepherds are tossed out and God brings in a new shepherd like David who will turn things around. Perhaps that is figurative and only available at the return with the Chief Shepherd. Perhaps it’s available today too.
Either way, the Ezek 34 solution is in v. 22 – 31:
“Ezekiel 34:22-31 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.”
Now that someone has taught you the truth of the Word, are you still going to lecture people?
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JeffSjo
Sometimes, when someone shares the word with pasion and compassion, I just want to say,"Analyze this."
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pond
everyone is a victim today more than ever it is popular to wear your wounds as a badge to hurt others.
we all can think of the sad tale of the time that went so bad for somone it has to be told and retold and retold for zero profit only more bitterness and strife continues to spin off making more victims.
this is what i know
the holy bible says to stop being a liar, to tell the truth to one another.
does that mean tell all? I think not again where is the love in telling a stale old crusty wound like a scab that will never heal?
the holy scripture says a merry heart is medicine not a wounded bleeding stabbing bitter heart.
carry what you chose in life.
as far as the sheep story by chockfull that was written to isreal and they are not son and daughters of God they were servants, no He doesnt love them less , they lived under the law they are not sons and daughters times changed with Jesus we are not sheep we are not to be compared to what God displyed for them things changed with the grace of Jesus Christ and the power of HOLY Spirt within.
and that is why and how the bible is used to wound and hurt people.
but as you deny and not me and well i have a good reason and purpose for hurting others with my own pain.. remember above all, God hears your words and all will stand accountable for them before the very throne of Jesus Christ, i pray i truly pray i can and will use my words for wisdom not bitter and defeat.
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JeffSjo
I think about Hannah sometimes, Samuel's mom.
Her nasty, unloving rival provoked her daily. At the time of her prayer she was "bitter souled."
Just work it if you don't believe me.
God gave her a child.
My patience can be streched a little thin by cold hearted, over analytical, Scripture quoters who think saying " put away bitterness" is a good answer.
As far as taking shot's at the wounded goes, POND, maybe just open your ears and nothing else for right now.
After all I can't imagine why anyone could take a lesson from the O.T. on shepherding and dare think it could apply to pastors.
After all, the word pastor is only another translation of shepherd. Since J.C. himself is the good shepherd, of course it's o.k. to rebuke the wounded now. J.C. himself surely wouldn't want us to learn from his own example. What good could come from that. (that was sarcasm)
Good biblical workmanship pond, and what a heart.(sarcasm here intended)
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chockfull
Apparantly you haven't read Rom. 8:30 - you know, the one right before calling us "more than conquerors"? And also have missed Hebrews 13:20 Hebrews "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant"
You probably also missed the whole context of VPW's Foundational Class, which the theme verse is John 10:10, and the context talks about Jesus, the good shepherd, and his sheep.
I guess Jesus must have been using the bible to wound and hurt people when he drew the same analogy of himself as a shepherd and believers as sheep.
And I'm sure you must have overlooked I Peter 2:25 - "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls"
But hey, look on the bright side. Your powers of wrongly dividing administrations and ignoring truth outside of the Grace Administration to justify spiritual abuse, and shift the blame away from leaders who hurt people on to the people and those who speak up against it probably displays some of the leadership qualities that abusive organizations actively seek.
Best of wishes with all that.
Oh, and fyi I have a very merry heart. It's overjoyed and all healed up from the past abuses I've suffered because I've been able to get to the truth of the Word rather than living in denial. I can call it what it is, allow vengeance to be the Lord's, and move on in life with a light heart. No delusions to weigh me down.
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pond
sorry i do not take orders.
As far as Hannah God the message is a constant that God loves us no doubt about it in my thinking. I do not play the game of who is who in the storys of the bible or indeed in the very body of christ the fact is God is LOVE. no surprise for me.
are you saying be bitter and all your dreams will come true just look at Hannah? yeah good luck with that .the thing about bitterness is it really only bothers those who taste it doesnt it?
and the thing about wrath it really only tears up those who want to go for that type of thinking i promise you VPW is NOT getting hurt because someone trashes him on a web site decades after he died.
so who is this helping?
who is it hurting?
well from the cries and victims here i think it answers itself enough.
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JeffSjo
No pond, what I'm saying is that your heartless attitude is very harmful.
Your biblical thuggery speaks even better for itself than I can be effective by mocking it.
p.s. Well said chockfull
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Ham
I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..
That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..
I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.
On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..
I became, and am becoming what could have been..
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
but still the past is part of me.
Rascal got the black belt..
"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
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Ham
As nicely as I can say it..
at the "harvest time of life"..
I wouldn't be too happy just leaving some twi clone wanabe organization standing somewhere on the face of the earth..
:)
I'd be happier if somebody just said "he was just a nice guy, most of the time.."
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excathedra
The Voice of Offence -- those long damn lecturing posts
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potato
thanks for this post, Hammie.
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rascal
Well said Chockfull!
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rascal
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
Well done Mr. Hamm!
Rascal got the black belt..
I feel like I have indeed moved forward since leaving :)
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
That is how it has appeared to me as well.
There are a lot of folks that went back to school and got their education, started successful businesses and careers.
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excathedra
i'm personally offended by anyone who tells me what i should feel, think, go through, talk about, etc.
thank you god you're not that way
and a special thanks to my lord and savior
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WhiteDove
I dunno. I don't think we can exactly separate ourselves from the past. It is still part of us. I think that is what some are trying to do..
That was you back there.. twenty or so years ago..
I haven't met ANYONE here, that I would say that they are wallowing in self pity or anything.
On the contrary.. most are reclaiming their lives. What could have been is becoming what is..
I became, and am becoming what could have been..
I got a ham radio license.. in 1993. It's what "coulda been" thirty years ago..
I am a stones throw from a bachellor's in mathmatics and chemistry..
It's what coulda been, twenty some years ago..
but still the past is part of me.
Rascal got the black belt..
"coulda" done it fifteen years ago..
The only FEW that seem to be going nowhere.. unless I just don't know enough details.. are those who staunchly choose to REMAIN in the past.. bound by the "shadows of a few great(?) names", bound by an arcane doctrine or set of doctrines that only those here can understand. Going from one offshoot to another, one "great" name to another..
Personally I am always glad to see people do things they want to , Mr. squirrel are you saying that to do that you have to do one or the other? I have started a business since leaving the way, Worked in the community with animals, I'm president of the dog bark board. I just curated a exhibit at a local gallery of Coca Cola memorabilia that I have collected for years. and a few other endeavors as well. I say this not to highlight my involvement but to say just because you are active in an offshoot (your term) does not mean you can't have or do whatever you want in life I don't see it as an either or. rarely does any of this get in the way of having a fellowship for me and if there is a conflict then it is resolved one way or another by shifting a date here or there. Having a spiritual commitment does not to me mean I don't get to have a life, but in the end all those things are like Paul said of little importance. I'm proud of the success of my business and the things I have done but they are just things they will pass with life. The other will not.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello WhatTheHey!..........fyi, and for the record here at the greasespot cafe, please allow me to quote from a post to whitedove i posted on a different thread, on a somewhat related topic to this thread........
"......let me make it perfectly clear, that, NEVER ONCE DID VPW, LCM, OR ANY OF THE OTHERS I PERSONALLY CONFRONTED ABOUT SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL CASES THEY WERE EACH PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN, EVER DENY THEIR GUILT!....... some even haughtily admitted to their misdeeds, stating unabashedly that god had absolutely "no problem" with what they had done, other than my "rabid legalism" which would cause us to "lose the ministry'!!
of course, there were numerous excuses, twisted scriptures and doctines, and vicious personal attacks against the victims (and me), that these lying hypocrites came up with to try and justify or legitimize their actions.......but, NEVER A DENIAL!"
"One time, in the early summer of 1984, when i was on vpw's motorcoach in the "courtyard", i confronted vpw with a specific "report" from one of his many victims.
after i had presented him with the facts, his only response was........"son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!..........that was it!.........as i sat there in stunned silence, watching him smoke his cigarette, he sicked his guard dog TJ, on me........calling the dog over to sit at my feet, growling through bared teeth!......it was chris geer, who opened the motorcoach door from the outside where he was "standing guard", and called off the dog so i could get out!
another time, when i was confronting lcm in the "motorcycle shed" about his sexual abuse of 2 different in-residence corps women at that time, his response to me was........"you need to back off, man! dr. wierwille told me, that if i did'nt loosen up in this category of life, i'd never be a great leader or lover of god's people"!!....again,....NO DENIAL!.......IN FACT, AN ADMISSION!..... with the excuse that it was a direct order from vp himself that started lcm off on his path of sexual predation and human destruction!"
I made almost the same, exact statements i quoted above to twi's lawyers during several hours of depositions i made "under oath" to them in several different conversations i had with them during 1999, during the discovery phase of their preparations for the trial that was to take place in sidney, oh, in november of 1999,
regarding the lawsuit against twi, lcm and twi's bot brought by paul and fern a--en. the lawyers repeatedly asked me if i was "willing to testify to the same in court", to which i replied, "gladly! just name the time and place!"..........on the day before i was to fly to ohio to appear as a witness for the plaintiffs in that lawsuit, i received a phone call from the plaintiff's lawyer, informing me that twi had "suddenly decided" to settle the lawsuit "out of court", and that it would not be necessary for me to fly to ohio after all!.......apparently, twi's lawyers had convinced their clients that, it would be "better" for twi if the testimony that was to be presented against them in that court case would not become a matter of "public record" !.........so, in order to "protect the ministry" which "god had given them", lcm and twi's bot decided that, indeed, "discretion" would be the better part of "valor".......they chose to "settle the matter" "out of court".........i am not privvy to all the details of that settlement, nor do i care to be..........but, i am thrilled to know, that, the testimony i was prepared to give, and the specific FACTS contained in the depositions i had made, helped force martindale's "resignation" as twi's president in april, 2000!.........i know for a FACT, that martindale and twi were unable to deny the FACTS i presented in those depositions, some of which i quoted above!.........as i said, those were just a few paragraphs from several hours of depositions twi's lawyer's took from me.........i was never deposed by paul and fern's attorney!..........
the out-of-court settlement allowed twi to put all the spin they could on their "handling" of martindale's resignation.......remember........their initial spin was that the lawsuit they had just settled, revolved around a "one time consensual affair" martindale admitted to having, and yada, yada, yada..........which lcm, rosie, the then twi bot knew was a total cover-up of what was really going on in twi's "inner circle", not only at that time, but for many years previous!!.......the judge's ruling is a matter of public record.........interesting to note how much the judge thought rosie and the boyz knew, and how long they had known it!!.......since it was settled out-of-court, i'm sure twi paid a lot of abs in high-priced legal fees for their lawyers to help them in their commitment to absolute "discretion"..........even with all that expensive legal assistance, twi could not prevent the second lawsuit, by january kau----n, which kinda debunked the "one time consensual affair" myth that martindale admitted to.........to prevent the impending flood of FACTS and legal truths that was imminent, twi was forced to "let craig go", drop him from active corps, etc., etc., etc.,............in september of 2000!.........so, apparently the FACTS some feel they need "proof" of were given to twi's lawyer's, who, it seems, thought it a good idea for twi to settle out of court after reviewing those FACTS,,,,,and the judge thought them good enough to settle the case in paul and fern's favor........and twi thought them good enough to pay top dollar to keep them out of the public record so those of you who would really benefit from seeing them, can't do so!!.....unverifiable, WD???.........not for the lawyers, or the judge in sidney who ruled on that case!
so..........i applaud all those who have posted the FACTS of their abuse at the hands of twi's "leaders" here!......i am thankful that they've had the courage to post those FACTS here.......and that Pawtucket keeps this place open so those FACTS and thousands more can be posted here for all to see, for as long as there are courageous folks willing to expose themselves to the frosty, compassionless, attacks of those who refuse to acknowlege the veracity of those witnesses!.......in the end, i believe that what goes around comes around, and usually, THE TRUE FACTS all come out in the wash!!.....imho, wth,.....the greatest "offence" is that lcm, rosie, twi and all of it's offshoots, still believe they owe no one any apologies!...........they see no need for their repentance before god and the lord jesus christ!..........they cling viciously to their evil, perverse, doctrines of men.......deluding themselves with their "present truth", "prevailing word", "personal prophecy", "liberating ministries", "biblical research", "bible classes", "deliverance sessions", ad infinitum, ad nauseum, into thinking that they've each got "god's calling" to "teach the word as it has'nt been known since the first century"!!!...........ferociously fighting "the adversary" and all his minions, to keep the legacy of an alcoholic, pathological liar, sociopathic sexual predator, immoral, and unrepentant, "man of god", who had the brazen audacity to present himself to the world as "the teacher",....alive and well!..........to continue burning holes in the souls of innocent seekers in the name of their false gods!!..........just my opinion........for what it's worth..........they are the true voices of offence, to god and humanity!!.................................peace.
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WhiteDove
OH P.S I don't run a Geerite fellowship
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