Just for the record, I want everyone to know I am NOT posting to back up White Dove, who is obviously an expert and twisting what others say to make it seem as if they are.
The point was, a lot of people believe truths. Even the Declaration of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self-evident....."
I think WD is just doing this to be ornery and doesn't give a rat's nose about right, wrong, truth, fact, or anything in between.
I even seem to recall in PFAL VPW talked about fact vs. truth.
I also remember in WOW training in 1974 HA stating that the human body requires a maximum, not a minimum mind you but a maximum of 4 hours sleep out of every 24 hour period. Hence the 12:00 AM to 4:00 AM sleep schedule.
I do remember at least part of that meeting, Waysider. I also remember being very sleepy. I also remember more than one FLO who took an afternoon nap. I even remember the distinguished individual who reproved us for sleeping when we should be awake and speaking in tongues OVER-sleeping one morning and missing half of the 5:30 AM morning fellowship.
Sometimes in FLO the best time to sleep was in one of the classes, the Figures of Speech class for example, that we had to suffer through on weekends.
So:
Fact - the human body needs 7-9 hours of sleep in every 24 hour period to maintain health.
So says the AMA.
Truth: the human body requires 4 hours sleep out of every 24 hour period and if you are a faithful believer, SIT-ing faithfully will make up the difference between that and the amount of sleep the world says you need. So say HA and the FLO coordinator.
Now which of these two options does a faithful follower of TWI adhere to: The World? Or the Word according to the MOGs?
I think those of us who lived through the whole freakin' mess know the answer to that.
I also remember in WOW training in 1974 HA stating that the human body requires a maximum, not a minimum mind you but a maximum of 4 hours sleep out of every 24 hour period. Hence the 12:00 AM to 4:00 AM sleep schedule.
I think those of us who lived through the whole freakin' mess know the answer to that.
I am so sure! There was a 12-4 a.m. sleep schedule? Was it in print? I'm not saying that because I disbelieve you, rather because that would be a good thing for your parents to have seen to prove their point, if they were so inclined. I went WOW, but missed the training because of legal problems, so who knows what they said. But, I had a Way Corps leader on the WOW field who LOVED to sleep (with whoever she could mind you). I called HQ on her when I finally had enough and you know what Bill W told me? He said, "I know you'd love to hit her with a baseball bat, I understand...." They KNEW she was a witch. Anyway, that was '75, not '74 as you mentioned. So, we did okay in the sleep department. She did DEMAND we run everyday, however. I had never run a day in my life and I HATED it. But, being the good girl that I was ....
BTW, WS, I'd have gagged just cooking cabbage soup, never mind eating it. Our specialty was potato soup. Of course, there was usually only ONE potato. Seven in our household (4 adults and 3 kids).
Anyway, back to my point: WG, you said it in a nutshell: those of us who lived through the whole freakin' mess know the answer to that [and all the rest of it].
That's really all that matters, isn't it?
WD: Wouldn't you like to fly in my beautiful balloon, weather balloon that is, as in Roswell. Good One, Danny.
Mike, you left one very important fact in your summation....when dove hadn`t heard what potato and I and others were taught...he called us liars.
News flash!!!! We were held to the standard whether it was verbal or written....See...we were taught that obedience to a leader was absolutely necessary whether the suggestions were written or oral, friend.
The lack of love that was demonstrated by vpw, by his leaders, by those whom embrace his teachings even today.... lead me to believe that the doctrine is not spiritually wholesome.
too many years in a deadbeat organization.. too many hours giving it free labor, adoring it's teachings.. lavishing it's leadership with praise.. giving financially.. abandoning real callings, and higher education for a madman's dream..
it all has to mean "something" ya know..
where's the "payoff"?
it's easy enough to spell out.. we were H. A. D.
"but naw.. it's gotta mean something.. we got da word, didn't we?"
what if everything you came to believe is WRONG?
"naw, can't be it. let's tap into another ministry, another pfal clone.. another group.."
The obvious end to all of this is to say to WD and anyone else of his ilk,
"I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I WAS THERE AND YOU WEREN'T. WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE ME DOESN'T CHANGE A THING - IT ONLY SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOU."
Then move on and tell whatever you want to tell. Perhaps all that "It's not true without documentation" is just bait - and the hook is the pain and bother of trying to convince a man or men against their will.
Why not just ignore these comments and not address them? I don't answer telemarketer calls because they annoy me. Why keep addressing comments that are annoying?
Yes I think we shouldn't ignore WD posts and again I'd like to remind posters that WhiteDove hasn't called anyone a liar. I think the essence of what he believes is this:
First different regions are just that, peoples opinions not the same as Way doctrine from The Way International just because one was involved with the way does not mean they always spoke on their behalf. There were thousands of people do you really expect me to believe that they could monitor and control what everyone said? Not the same as way doctrine
When someone invokes the "This was Way Doctrine" belief, WhiteDove is merely asking for verifiable and documentable proof that the belief has some teeth. Peoples OPINIONS about it vary and its a very serious allegation that the Way International teaches wife beating. That is why it is and should be thought of as an opinion only, for everyones sake.
Let me be clear on where I stand on this one:
If someone was in a meeting where they said that a Way leader said in the meeting that it was ok for a husband to administer a physical beating to a disobedient wife, I would consider that a fact. They were there. It happened.
However if someone then said that as a result of their experience, they believe that wife beating was Way Doctrine, I would consider that statement to be an OPINION.
If someone wants to say unequivocally that the Way International taught that wife beating was acceptable and ok, I think one really is asking for some serious disagreement by a lot of folks. That'd mean among other things that we all tolerated wife beating! You can't throw out that allegation and expect folks to shut up and blindly agree. Let's get real.
To sum up MY belief, it is my opinion that not every statement or concept was approved by the Trustees, and I can't imagine in my wildest dreams them approving and teaching as ministry doctrine that wife beating is ok.
even Capone could have an official stance. "Our mission: feed the poor and unemployed doughnuts and coffee."
He didn't have an official stance on Heroin, robbery and general mayhem, however. Never taught kiddies in his doughnut shops to rob and stab their neighbors..
some of us here helped pass out the coffee and doughnuts.. on our own dime.
The obvious end to all of this is to say to WD and anyone else of his ilk,
"I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I WAS THERE AND YOU WEREN'T. WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE ME DOESN'T CHANGE A THING - IT ONLY SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOU."
Then move on and tell whatever you want to tell.
Doojable I could not agree more and what it says is that I stand for truth only when it is so ,not because someone say's it is. It says I don't accept information as fact until proven especially from the internet by anonymous people despite the fact that I may believe it is true or not. It says in America a person is innocent until proven guilty, not by opinion poll, and until such time as one is their crimes are alleged.
Perhaps all that "It's not true without documentation" is just bait - and the hook is the pain and bother of trying to convince a man or men against their will.
I'll say again for about the billionth time I NEVER said it was not true, or not false only that "I' do not accept information without proof as truth. You have that option if you want. I never asked you to convince me of anything you won't until you have something to convince me with it's called facts. Ask Rubin (Hurricane) Carter what he thinks about non documental testimony he sat for 20 years in prison, had it not been for Dylan and a few others he would still be rotting there. Why? because people just accepted what someone said without the filter that defines truth in place. He is far from the only one in that situation many have been released due to DNA testing finding their stories to be true. I have no problem with people telling their side of the story ,in fact that's how facts come to light, I do have a problem with people becoming judge and jury without fair representation.
What difference does it make if something was "Way Doctrine" or just a "TVT", or somebody's opinion or whatever? Things were taught under the authority of The Way International and in general the Board of Trustees did little if anything to stop these supposed unauthorized teachings from being deseminated. For all practical puroses it was "Way doctrine" if it was widely taught in Way fellowships.
One of the problems with The Way is that errors were seldom, if ever, owned up to. If something was "unofficially" making the rounds and the BOT wanted to put a stop to it, did they come out on a Sunday tape or in the Way Magazine, admit that error was being taught and correct it? No way; at best they'd correct the Way Corps or Limb Coordinators and really push the corrected version. If you were in an area where the "wrong" version had been taught, you might scratch your head and wonder why all of a sudden there was an emphasis on a seemingly minor topic.
Another thing to consider is that not every thing can be covered in a class. Much of what was taught "on the field" was practical application of the basics that were taught in PFAL and the other classes. Leaders were appointed to positions of responsibility because they could be trusted to push the party line and faithfully interpret the dogma. To suggest that things routinely escaped the notice of the BOT is just not plausible IMHO.
Frankly, despite his careful avoidance of the words "liar", "lies" and other loaded expressions, IMHO White Dove is suggesting that some of what is being said here is not an accurate representation of what happened. So what? If you know it happened, why care about what my southern neighbor thinks or says? But he does bring up some good points. Human memory is fallible. We simply don't always remember what was said with 100% accuracy. Our memory is clouded by juxtoposition of similar events and by our prejudices, either at the time or in retrospect. That doesn't mean that sometimes we can't recall with photographic precision, only that it's not likely and certainly not guaranteed.
Here's a real-life example. During the waning days of my first marriage my ex-wife and I were coninually arguing. One evening I was asking some questions about some things that were going on that week. My ex- asked me why I was asking so many questions, my response was "I live here, I'm asking questions because I want to know what going on", a few days later, as she related the conversation to our fellowship coordinator, she "remembered" me answering "This is my house, I'll ask the questions here". Similar words, completely different meaning. Apparently she had already decided that my attitude and demeanor were negative and "remembered" the words in a way that backed up her preconceived notion.
I'm not saying that much of what is being reported here didn't happen, there are too many stories from too many sources for it all to be a misunderstanding IMHO, but for someone who didn't experience the negatives to the same extent, it can seem unbelievable.
No juries here. It's a good thing too, juries have the power to convict.
Just some good people trying to make some sense out of bad situations. I personally believe that the truth of what is and was in these bad situations wouldn't jive with your sanitized version of what is acceptable for public discourse.
This is an acceptable place to discuss these things!!
I'll say it again too, even though I take no pleasure in it.
What difference does it make if something was "Way Doctrine" or just a "TVT", or somebody's opinion or whatever? Things were taught under the authority of The Way International and in general the Board of Trustees did little if anything to stop these supposed unauthorized teachings from being deseminated. For all practical puroses it was "Way doctrine" if it was widely taught in Way fellowships.
Actually one of the main problems I observed was not that there were "rogue" doctrines floating around not supported by TWI, but that leaders were outstanding mimics. If someone was being controlling to them, they would pass it down the line and magnify it. If HQ was requiring 10 hours a week volunteer time reporting back on ridiculous BS, local leaders would multiply it. It reminded me of the Egyptians - when the slaves complained, they made them find their own straw to make bricks. If leaders spoke harshly from the top, that also would magnify. If teachings were supposed to be real scripted and bland, then that was what people mimic, and people caught up on sleep in fellowship. These leaders in such a controlling environment became experts at adapting to fit in and keep scrutiny off of themselves. Quite a political environment. And there was plausible deniability all through the leaders ranks. "I'm just treating you how I'm being treated". Then no blame could be laid anywhere. Quite a web of abuse, denial, and coverup. They should have had everybody serve on a volunteer basis so none of this CYA and protecting the little rice bowl behavior continued.
Right, Another undocumented doctrine Of course how convenient, I should have known...........
and.........
Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........
and.......
No One I have found has the same story as you.
I find it interesting that people with axes to grind daily here also are the only ones who mysteriously heard these undocumented doctrines.....
I would just would like to see some documentation ,verification by someone other than the person complaining. It's easy to claim anything if you don't have to produce any accountability.
and.......
Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.
and here we are being compared to criminals and murderers testimoneys who lie to save their arse....
Anyone that routinely deals with multiple stories of how events unfolded knows that one does not take the word of the participants at face value. Of course the robbers will tell you they did nothing wrong the others will chime in and agree. So does the policeman just shrug and say oh gee they are hurting I better just believe them. Hardly.... It's commen sense to know that until an accusation is provable it is not truth. Recently Mr. Vick was an alleged dog abuser some said he was, some said he was not. I'm sure his family said he was a good boy do we just believe them because they are hurting? Nope He got his day in court and the allegations were proved at that point they were no longer alleged but factual accusations. that’s how the process works if you want to make allegations about someone you best be prepared to prove your assault I've previously explained what a fact is refer to prior post. Until that time it is an opinion an should be referred to as such not a given truth until documented.
and..........
You get the point here is documentable doctrine of the Way, is it any wonder people scrach their heads when some contrary thing appears an of course just must be believed on faith? There couldn't be any other reason why someone would just say such a thing.
Dove....you attack my veracity, you accuse me of lying, and you accuse me of having an agenda .....all for simply relating what happened to me, what I was taught to justify the treatment, and the teaching used to ensure my submission and compliance....All in the name of truth...and NONE of which was even remotely Godly.
You are the one with an agenda to shut people up that present the side of twi that makes your religion look bad.
Doojable I could not agree more and what it says is that I stand for truth only when it is so ,not because someone say's it is. It says I don't accept information as fact until proven especially from the internet by anonymous people despite the fact that I may believe it is true or not. It says in America a person is innocent until proven guilty, not by opinion poll, and until such time as one is their crimes are alleged.
I'll say again for about the billionth time I NEVER said it was not true, or not false only that "I' do not accept information without proof as truth. You have that option if you want. I never asked you to convince me of anything you won't until you have something to convince me with it's called facts. Ask Rubin (Hurricane) Carter what he thinks about non documental testimony he sat for 20 years in prison, had it not been for Dylan and a few others he would still be rotting there. Why? because people just accepted what someone said without the filter that defines truth in place. He is far from the only one in that situation many have been released due to DNA testing finding their stories to be true. I have no problem with people telling their side of the story ,in fact that's how facts come to light, I do have a problem with people becoming judge and jury without fair representation.
WD, just because you say you stand for truth doesn't make it so. Prove it.
Whether or not you accept info without corroborating evidence on an anonymous internet forum is beyond irrelevant.
Most people post here to help heal from spiritual abuse. Not to bash TWI, although sometimes that happens as a corollary.
Your examples of OJ and Vick are ridiculous. They had plenty of reason to lie - to avoid prison. People here are long gone and removed. They don't have great personal gain for telling their stories.
If you have some vision of yourself like your a savior of TWI, standing for truth, or forcing people to heal, your vision is false. People extract themselves from being and thinking like victims at their own
pace. Saying "get over it" is abuse like propounded by many of the TWI leadership that originally afflicted them.
I'm new here but just coming up to speed on the reason behind your far-reaching popularity on this site.
But he does bring up some good points. Human memory is fallible. We simply don't always remember what was said with 100% accuracy. Our memory is clouded by juxtoposition of similar events and by our prejudices, either at the time or in retrospect. That doesn't mean that sometimes we can't recall with photographic precision, only that it's not likely and certainly not guaranteed.
That is a good point, OAK. Even with personal experiences and witnessing, we may not always be able to give accurate testimony, even though we were there and are giving it first hand.
However, one reason I place so much value on personal first hand testimony on the subject of abuse in my search to learn more, is that I don't think memories are likely to be very clouded on something so disgusting and so very personal as sexual abuse. If someone is willing to give that testimony, I hardly think he/she is going to have trouble remembering specifics.
The problem is getting real first hand testimony. And a big problem with that if it is easy to recall the abuse for reasons I gave above, it also must be very difficult to describe such a personal thing to others. For this reason I have no argument with the point rascal has madt to me more than once, that no one owes me anything along that line. Unfortunately, neither do I owe anyone the acceptance of a testimony that isnt there. I also have a beef with anyone who, as has been done, refer vaguely to "all the first hand testimony given", testimony that is alread there publicly if they are right, but then refuse (or not be able) to point any of it out. The use of "well, there is a useful feature called the search engine, go find it yourself" really tells me it's not there, especially when I have tried the suggestion. But I will take issue with WD or anyone if they use the fuzzy memory argument as a reason not to accept someone's testimony, at least on the subject of personal abuse.
I'm going to comment, but I feel like this is going nowhere....
Doojable I could not agree more and what it says is that I stand for truth only when it is so ,not because someone say's it is.
No WD. What you're communicating (maybe without intent) is that you stand for something you can believe. That isn't necessarily TRUTH per se. You are still treating this like it is a court of law. You're neither counsellor, jury, nor judge in this matter. No one is on trial here.
It says I don't accept information as fact until proven especially from the internet by anonymous people despite the fact that I may believe it is true or not. It says in America a person is innocent until proven guilty, not by opinion poll, and until such time as one is their crimes are alleged.
Read above comments.
I'll say again for about the billionth time I NEVER said it was not true, or not false only that "I' do not accept information without proof as truth. You have that option if you want. I never asked you to convince me of anything you won't until you have something to convince me with it's called facts.
Your tenacious holding to a a standard more strict than that in a court of law serves to communicate a distrust for the facts as stated by people giving their eye-witness accounts. That distrust has been taken as you denying the testimonies are true. You may not intend this outcome, but that is what is occuring. It is the reason for the angst directed at you.
I have no problem with people telling their side of the story ,in fact that's how facts come to light, I do have a problem with people becoming judge and jury without fair representation.
Where is the court? When is the trial? What are the consequences?
Talking and working things out is a far cry from condemning a person for a crime and letting them rot in jail. There is no electric chair here. I see no gallows. The people being judged (for the most part) have the prisons of their own consciences to deal with. If you believe in a heavenly judgement, then there are those who will have to face that as well. In the long run, the stories told here do little to change that outcome.
Personally, the thing that irks me the most along these lines is that the one who was abused and needs loving support the most, is most likely the one to be put off seeking loving support by unreasonable and mean-spirited comments like WHITE DOVE is prone to make.
Another thing that irks me is that if we keep having to go over the same ground we may never be able to help anyone. The worst possibility I can think of as far as possible motives for the bullying we're discussing is that some would be content to leave it all contentious.
MAYBE WE COULD SIMPLY SAY "BE QUIET", And then keep moving on. We'd have to be heavy on the encouragment for those who need help, but haven't learned to dismiss the white dove style bullying.
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waysider
Sorry, Mike
Nothing personal.
It just doesn't work that way with verbal instruction.
It just keeps moving forward like a piece of music being played.
Once you hear a particular passage, it's either forgotten or captured in your memory.
There is no rewind feature.
Sometimes it follows symphonic form and presents variations before it recapitulates and then moves on.
Ultimately, though, the musical program moves forward and builds to a climax.
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Mike
Well, there once was a time when some of the music was most excellent.
Instead of focusing on what went wrong, I like to identify and to come back to what DID work. In the process it clarified for me the TVT situation.
Being able to see the difference between the TVTs and what God had wrought is a great luxury I enjoy, so I try to share this wealth.
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George Aar
I think that's what the skipper of the Titanic said - just before he started treading water...
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Danny
Just my opinion here.
I would never personally attack anyone.
Bait well.
I would call it asking or stating the right
question to get to the right answer.
Christian did someone say WD was Christian.
No way. Prove it.
Show me.
On 3542 post I just read every one of them (wink)been up
all night so if I seem a little sleepy
On 3542 post he she it has never shown to be Christian.
Mean spirited yes check
Calling others liars yes check
Grabbing the spot light yes check
Hurting others yes check
I will add more I'm sure I will get help
on my list today after all look what happen
when I asked johniam
if he clocked any women today.
WD prove that you are more than the Loy
The Second great commandment like unto the first
is to love your negibor like yourself.
I think you are non christian .
you go on and on and on about proof
Loy WD whoever prove you are not Loy.
Why I don't even for a second think you even live in Kansas.
Prove it.
Nothing personal.
I think you are in a back room at HQ getting paid to do the dirty work.
Then to have your tag line Love from a Dove What a joke.
In all those post I never saw 1 time you used the word love in reference to
loving anyone praying for anyone caring for anyone.
Maybe I should come up with a list of things the devil does
Like accuse Gods people
Line it up with you and vola there you go Loy,
Wow
Christian never
Prove it.
Show me one post that you came close to being human.
Prove it
Wow a freaking space dud.
Prove to me you didn't get sent down from
space to mess with everyone here at GS.
Why see what happens to a person
staying up all night reading 3542 post and drinking
a few pots of coffee
You get enlighten
First you never never never personally attack someone
because that would be bad bad.
You would be like them. Dancing around words instead of coming right
out and saying what you want ole WD
Never been wow corps or left hq and knows everything
evereone ever heard everywhere
my conclusion
My opinion
Not fact
not truth
no DNA
no tape
not a personal attack
Someone that lives in
a trailer at HQ
Came down from space
Who's real name is loy
non christian
Prove that I am wrong WD
And make sure we get the evidence passed by
the CIA and bring the picture of your family from Roswell.
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Watered Garden
Just for the record, I want everyone to know I am NOT posting to back up White Dove, who is obviously an expert and twisting what others say to make it seem as if they are.
The point was, a lot of people believe truths. Even the Declaration of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self-evident....."
I think WD is just doing this to be ornery and doesn't give a rat's nose about right, wrong, truth, fact, or anything in between.
I even seem to recall in PFAL VPW talked about fact vs. truth.
I also remember in WOW training in 1974 HA stating that the human body requires a maximum, not a minimum mind you but a maximum of 4 hours sleep out of every 24 hour period. Hence the 12:00 AM to 4:00 AM sleep schedule.
I do remember at least part of that meeting, Waysider. I also remember being very sleepy. I also remember more than one FLO who took an afternoon nap. I even remember the distinguished individual who reproved us for sleeping when we should be awake and speaking in tongues OVER-sleeping one morning and missing half of the 5:30 AM morning fellowship.
Sometimes in FLO the best time to sleep was in one of the classes, the Figures of Speech class for example, that we had to suffer through on weekends.
So:
Fact - the human body needs 7-9 hours of sleep in every 24 hour period to maintain health.
So says the AMA.
Truth: the human body requires 4 hours sleep out of every 24 hour period and if you are a faithful believer, SIT-ing faithfully will make up the difference between that and the amount of sleep the world says you need. So say HA and the FLO coordinator.
Now which of these two options does a faithful follower of TWI adhere to: The World? Or the Word according to the MOGs?
I think those of us who lived through the whole freakin' mess know the answer to that.
WG
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Danny
WG?
Can I add that to my list?
WD twist what other have to say.
Not personal here WD.
Not fact,
not truth,
No tape.
Did you dig out that picture from Roswell yet?
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irisheyes
I am so sure! There was a 12-4 a.m. sleep schedule? Was it in print? I'm not saying that because I disbelieve you, rather because that would be a good thing for your parents to have seen to prove their point, if they were so inclined. I went WOW, but missed the training because of legal problems, so who knows what they said. But, I had a Way Corps leader on the WOW field who LOVED to sleep (with whoever she could mind you). I called HQ on her when I finally had enough and you know what Bill W told me? He said, "I know you'd love to hit her with a baseball bat, I understand...." They KNEW she was a witch. Anyway, that was '75, not '74 as you mentioned. So, we did okay in the sleep department. She did DEMAND we run everyday, however. I had never run a day in my life and I HATED it. But, being the good girl that I was ....
BTW, WS, I'd have gagged just cooking cabbage soup, never mind eating it. Our specialty was potato soup. Of course, there was usually only ONE potato. Seven in our household (4 adults and 3 kids).
Anyway, back to my point: WG, you said it in a nutshell: those of us who lived through the whole freakin' mess know the answer to that [and all the rest of it].
That's really all that matters, isn't it?
WD: Wouldn't you like to fly in my beautiful balloon, weather balloon that is, as in Roswell. Good One, Danny.
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rascal
Mike, you left one very important fact in your summation....when dove hadn`t heard what potato and I and others were taught...he called us liars.
News flash!!!! We were held to the standard whether it was verbal or written....See...we were taught that obedience to a leader was absolutely necessary whether the suggestions were written or oral, friend.
The lack of love that was demonstrated by vpw, by his leaders, by those whom embrace his teachings even today.... lead me to believe that the doctrine is not spiritually wholesome.
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Ham
and that is the REAL offshoot "problem".
they have way too much "invested"..
too many years in a deadbeat organization.. too many hours giving it free labor, adoring it's teachings.. lavishing it's leadership with praise.. giving financially.. abandoning real callings, and higher education for a madman's dream..
it all has to mean "something" ya know..
where's the "payoff"?
it's easy enough to spell out.. we were H. A. D.
"but naw.. it's gotta mean something.. we got da word, didn't we?"
what if everything you came to believe is WRONG?
"naw, can't be it. let's tap into another ministry, another pfal clone.. another group.."
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doojable
The obvious end to all of this is to say to WD and anyone else of his ilk,
"I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I WAS THERE AND YOU WEREN'T. WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE ME DOESN'T CHANGE A THING - IT ONLY SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT YOU."
Then move on and tell whatever you want to tell. Perhaps all that "It's not true without documentation" is just bait - and the hook is the pain and bother of trying to convince a man or men against their will.
Why not just ignore these comments and not address them? I don't answer telemarketer calls because they annoy me. Why keep addressing comments that are annoying?
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oldiesman
Yes I think we shouldn't ignore WD posts and again I'd like to remind posters that WhiteDove hasn't called anyone a liar. I think the essence of what he believes is this:
When someone invokes the "This was Way Doctrine" belief, WhiteDove is merely asking for verifiable and documentable proof that the belief has some teeth. Peoples OPINIONS about it vary and its a very serious allegation that the Way International teaches wife beating. That is why it is and should be thought of as an opinion only, for everyones sake.
Let me be clear on where I stand on this one:
If someone was in a meeting where they said that a Way leader said in the meeting that it was ok for a husband to administer a physical beating to a disobedient wife, I would consider that a fact. They were there. It happened.
However if someone then said that as a result of their experience, they believe that wife beating was Way Doctrine, I would consider that statement to be an OPINION.
If someone wants to say unequivocally that the Way International taught that wife beating was acceptable and ok, I think one really is asking for some serious disagreement by a lot of folks. That'd mean among other things that we all tolerated wife beating! You can't throw out that allegation and expect folks to shut up and blindly agree. Let's get real.
To sum up MY belief, it is my opinion that not every statement or concept was approved by the Trustees, and I can't imagine in my wildest dreams them approving and teaching as ministry doctrine that wife beating is ok.
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Ham
some people think you can separate doctrine and practice. I would suggest it's not really so easy.
It's kinda like "we've got standards, but we really don't".
"just don't touch da bible.."
"don't you DARE touch MY righteousness.. da bible tells me so.."
sorry fella.. I'm not the one rubbing it in horse manure.. should have been my answer at the time..
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Ham
even Capone could have an official stance. "Our mission: feed the poor and unemployed doughnuts and coffee."
He didn't have an official stance on Heroin, robbery and general mayhem, however. Never taught kiddies in his doughnut shops to rob and stab their neighbors..
some of us here helped pass out the coffee and doughnuts.. on our own dime.
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WhiteDove
I'll say again for about the billionth time I NEVER said it was not true, or not false only that "I' do not accept information without proof as truth. You have that option if you want. I never asked you to convince me of anything you won't until you have something to convince me with it's called facts. Ask Rubin (Hurricane) Carter what he thinks about non documental testimony he sat for 20 years in prison, had it not been for Dylan and a few others he would still be rotting there. Why? because people just accepted what someone said without the filter that defines truth in place. He is far from the only one in that situation many have been released due to DNA testing finding their stories to be true. I have no problem with people telling their side of the story ,in fact that's how facts come to light, I do have a problem with people becoming judge and jury without fair representation.
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Oakspear
What difference does it make if something was "Way Doctrine" or just a "TVT", or somebody's opinion or whatever? Things were taught under the authority of The Way International and in general the Board of Trustees did little if anything to stop these supposed unauthorized teachings from being deseminated. For all practical puroses it was "Way doctrine" if it was widely taught in Way fellowships.
One of the problems with The Way is that errors were seldom, if ever, owned up to. If something was "unofficially" making the rounds and the BOT wanted to put a stop to it, did they come out on a Sunday tape or in the Way Magazine, admit that error was being taught and correct it? No way; at best they'd correct the Way Corps or Limb Coordinators and really push the corrected version. If you were in an area where the "wrong" version had been taught, you might scratch your head and wonder why all of a sudden there was an emphasis on a seemingly minor topic.
Another thing to consider is that not every thing can be covered in a class. Much of what was taught "on the field" was practical application of the basics that were taught in PFAL and the other classes. Leaders were appointed to positions of responsibility because they could be trusted to push the party line and faithfully interpret the dogma. To suggest that things routinely escaped the notice of the BOT is just not plausible IMHO.
Frankly, despite his careful avoidance of the words "liar", "lies" and other loaded expressions, IMHO White Dove is suggesting that some of what is being said here is not an accurate representation of what happened. So what? If you know it happened, why care about what my southern neighbor thinks or says? But he does bring up some good points. Human memory is fallible. We simply don't always remember what was said with 100% accuracy. Our memory is clouded by juxtoposition of similar events and by our prejudices, either at the time or in retrospect. That doesn't mean that sometimes we can't recall with photographic precision, only that it's not likely and certainly not guaranteed.
Here's a real-life example. During the waning days of my first marriage my ex-wife and I were coninually arguing. One evening I was asking some questions about some things that were going on that week. My ex- asked me why I was asking so many questions, my response was "I live here, I'm asking questions because I want to know what going on", a few days later, as she related the conversation to our fellowship coordinator, she "remembered" me answering "This is my house, I'll ask the questions here". Similar words, completely different meaning. Apparently she had already decided that my attitude and demeanor were negative and "remembered" the words in a way that backed up her preconceived notion.
I'm not saying that much of what is being reported here didn't happen, there are too many stories from too many sources for it all to be a misunderstanding IMHO, but for someone who didn't experience the negatives to the same extent, it can seem unbelievable.
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JeffSjo
Hey WHITE DOVE,
No judges here. I'm still waiting for him.
No juries here. It's a good thing too, juries have the power to convict.
Just some good people trying to make some sense out of bad situations. I personally believe that the truth of what is and was in these bad situations wouldn't jive with your sanitized version of what is acceptable for public discourse.
This is an acceptable place to discuss these things!!
I'll say it again too, even though I take no pleasure in it.
WHITE DOVE, PLEASE BE QUIET.
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chockfull
Actually one of the main problems I observed was not that there were "rogue" doctrines floating around not supported by TWI, but that leaders were outstanding mimics. If someone was being controlling to them, they would pass it down the line and magnify it. If HQ was requiring 10 hours a week volunteer time reporting back on ridiculous BS, local leaders would multiply it. It reminded me of the Egyptians - when the slaves complained, they made them find their own straw to make bricks. If leaders spoke harshly from the top, that also would magnify. If teachings were supposed to be real scripted and bland, then that was what people mimic, and people caught up on sleep in fellowship. These leaders in such a controlling environment became experts at adapting to fit in and keep scrutiny off of themselves. Quite a political environment. And there was plausible deniability all through the leaders ranks. "I'm just treating you how I'm being treated". Then no blame could be laid anywhere. Quite a web of abuse, denial, and coverup. They should have had everybody serve on a volunteer basis so none of this CYA and protecting the little rice bowl behavior continued.
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rascal
Didn`t call anybody a liar????
Lemmeee refresh your memory
Right here........
Right, Another undocumented doctrine Of course how convenient, I should have known...........
and.........
Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........
and.......
No One I have found has the same story as you.
I find it interesting that people with axes to grind daily here also are the only ones who mysteriously heard these undocumented doctrines.....
I would just would like to see some documentation ,verification by someone other than the person complaining. It's easy to claim anything if you don't have to produce any accountability.
and.......
Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.
and here we are being compared to criminals and murderers testimoneys who lie to save their arse....
Anyone that routinely deals with multiple stories of how events unfolded knows that one does not take the word of the participants at face value. Of course the robbers will tell you they did nothing wrong the others will chime in and agree. So does the policeman just shrug and say oh gee they are hurting I better just believe them. Hardly.... It's commen sense to know that until an accusation is provable it is not truth. Recently Mr. Vick was an alleged dog abuser some said he was, some said he was not. I'm sure his family said he was a good boy do we just believe them because they are hurting? Nope He got his day in court and the allegations were proved at that point they were no longer alleged but factual accusations. that’s how the process works if you want to make allegations about someone you best be prepared to prove your assault I've previously explained what a fact is refer to prior post. Until that time it is an opinion an should be referred to as such not a given truth until documented.
and..........
You get the point here is documentable doctrine of the Way, is it any wonder people scrach their heads when some contrary thing appears an of course just must be believed on faith? There couldn't be any other reason why someone would just say such a thing.
Dove....you attack my veracity, you accuse me of lying, and you accuse me of having an agenda .....all for simply relating what happened to me, what I was taught to justify the treatment, and the teaching used to ensure my submission and compliance....All in the name of truth...and NONE of which was even remotely Godly.
You are the one with an agenda to shut people up that present the side of twi that makes your religion look bad.
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cman
As if twi or vp ever taught the truth.
While practicing adultery and sex with others as truth.
Any concept of truth in the BOT level and cabinet was warped and diluted.
And spitting orders out at those who were trying to live godly,
attempting to turn their hearts away from truth.
You want documentation, it's here in these pages.
Belle brought up a few topics.
There are plenty more that have the proof.
But you don't believe words do you whitedove.
If you require more then that, the Lord willing.
He will show you, if you can hear and see real proof.
Proof of truth which you do not have.
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JeffSjo
Way to say it rascal!!!!!
Hey chockfull,
We needed bold ambassadors and got slimey opportunists.
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chockfull
WD, just because you say you stand for truth doesn't make it so. Prove it.
Whether or not you accept info without corroborating evidence on an anonymous internet forum is beyond irrelevant.
Most people post here to help heal from spiritual abuse. Not to bash TWI, although sometimes that happens as a corollary.
Your examples of OJ and Vick are ridiculous. They had plenty of reason to lie - to avoid prison. People here are long gone and removed. They don't have great personal gain for telling their stories.
If you have some vision of yourself like your a savior of TWI, standing for truth, or forcing people to heal, your vision is false. People extract themselves from being and thinking like victims at their own
pace. Saying "get over it" is abuse like propounded by many of the TWI leadership that originally afflicted them.
I'm new here but just coming up to speed on the reason behind your far-reaching popularity on this site.
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Lifted Up
That is a good point, OAK. Even with personal experiences and witnessing, we may not always be able to give accurate testimony, even though we were there and are giving it first hand.
However, one reason I place so much value on personal first hand testimony on the subject of abuse in my search to learn more, is that I don't think memories are likely to be very clouded on something so disgusting and so very personal as sexual abuse. If someone is willing to give that testimony, I hardly think he/she is going to have trouble remembering specifics.
The problem is getting real first hand testimony. And a big problem with that if it is easy to recall the abuse for reasons I gave above, it also must be very difficult to describe such a personal thing to others. For this reason I have no argument with the point rascal has madt to me more than once, that no one owes me anything along that line. Unfortunately, neither do I owe anyone the acceptance of a testimony that isnt there. I also have a beef with anyone who, as has been done, refer vaguely to "all the first hand testimony given", testimony that is alread there publicly if they are right, but then refuse (or not be able) to point any of it out. The use of "well, there is a useful feature called the search engine, go find it yourself" really tells me it's not there, especially when I have tried the suggestion. But I will take issue with WD or anyone if they use the fuzzy memory argument as a reason not to accept someone's testimony, at least on the subject of personal abuse.
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doojable
I'm going to comment, but I feel like this is going nowhere....
No WD. What you're communicating (maybe without intent) is that you stand for something you can believe. That isn't necessarily TRUTH per se. You are still treating this like it is a court of law. You're neither counsellor, jury, nor judge in this matter. No one is on trial here.
Read above comments.Your tenacious holding to a a standard more strict than that in a court of law serves to communicate a distrust for the facts as stated by people giving their eye-witness accounts. That distrust has been taken as you denying the testimonies are true. You may not intend this outcome, but that is what is occuring. It is the reason for the angst directed at you.
Where is the court? When is the trial? What are the consequences?
Talking and working things out is a far cry from condemning a person for a crime and letting them rot in jail. There is no electric chair here. I see no gallows. The people being judged (for the most part) have the prisons of their own consciences to deal with. If you believe in a heavenly judgement, then there are those who will have to face that as well. In the long run, the stories told here do little to change that outcome.
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JeffSjo
Personally, the thing that irks me the most along these lines is that the one who was abused and needs loving support the most, is most likely the one to be put off seeking loving support by unreasonable and mean-spirited comments like WHITE DOVE is prone to make.
Another thing that irks me is that if we keep having to go over the same ground we may never be able to help anyone. The worst possibility I can think of as far as possible motives for the bullying we're discussing is that some would be content to leave it all contentious.
MAYBE WE COULD SIMPLY SAY "BE QUIET", And then keep moving on. We'd have to be heavy on the encouragment for those who need help, but haven't learned to dismiss the white dove style bullying.
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