How about if someone, anyone, told YOU that any of the bad things that happened to you never occurred nor were they "true" because they weren't there to personally see them... or because you didn't have videotape... or because you didn't have sworn affidavits???
How would you feel then WD? Would you then just pack it in and say "gee, I guess that stuff didn't happen to me"?
How about if someone, anyone, told YOU that any of the bad things that happened to you never occurred nor were they "true" because they weren't there to personally see them... or because you didn't have videotape... or because you didn't have sworn affidavits???
How would you feel then WD? Would you then just pack it in and say "gee, I guess that stuff didn't happen to me"?
I thought not.
No I would say I believe that they happened to me but without proof I understand that you can not verify either way if it did or not. You can feel free to accept them based on my swell personality, my good looks, or just because you have a hunch I am telling you the truth ,but that does not mean that what I say is truth without first pasing the test of what truth is.
I'm sorry, WD but you have things turned around. If something happened to me it is my experience. That in and of itself is what is true. NOW, you may not accept my account as true, but your belief in the verity of my experience does not change what is true.
If a man commits murder he is guilty. It may not be proven in a court of law. That doesn't make him innocent - it merely says that in a court of law there was not enough evidence to declare him guilty. HIS acts are what make him guilty in truth and in fact. He is not "Innocent." He is merely "Not Guilty."
So while you may say that if I don't have a way to verify my negative or positive experiences, they are no less what they are. I see how you can sit there and refuse to accept them as fact- but I truly feel like you are holding to a legal standard with an almost illogical amount of tenacity.
We have all been frustrated by watching a criminal get off the hook on a legal technicality. In a way you are providing that same technicality for lots of wrongs at the hands of TWI leadership.
As to the teachings in TWI. There were a lot of things that got taught by ordained men and women that were never written down. Perhaps some of these teachings found their way to audio tape - but I for one discarded all teachings and Way Prod tapes when I left. There was an official stance taken on many issues and there was also an unofficial stance. A BC would teach something, which would make it up the Way Tree to the Limb. Sometimes these things got addressed, sometimes they got ignored. The teachings and doctrines were never addressed in print because the errors were never printed.
There is a difference in adhering to the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law. Lawyers play this grey area up all the time.
*Edited to add that *I* doesn't refer to *me* as much as it refers to anyone telling a personal experience.*
No I would say I believe that they happened to me but without proof I understand that you can not verify either way if it did or not. You can feel free to accept them based on my swell personality, my good looks, or just because you have a hunch I am telling you the truth ,but that does not mean that what I say is truth without first pasing the test of what truth is.
for some reason I really don't think that you'd react so calmly to someone repeatedly telling you that what personally happened to you didn't "pass the test of what truth is"...
for some reason I really don't think that you'd react so calmly to someone repeatedly telling you that what personally happened to you didn't "pass the test of what truth is"...
... she must have forgot to mention the importance of presentation
aaaahh! P R E S E N T A T I O N !!! Like in packaging?... And un-Wrapping the Packing?
Can we play with this idea a little more in that CF&Sex thread?? Might help to get people's minds off the subject of Proof / No Proof / Alcohol Proof / And Pooof goes the magic Champagne cork for Christmas!
Besides, my new friend in the corner has a very low tolerance for boring holiday conversation which everyone knows, will go no where...
WD, there are NO objective FACTS to prove that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, dead, buried and on the third day arose from the dead. He ascended into heaven from whence he shall return to judge the quick and the dead. No FACTS. Just TRUTH, at least to me, a Christian. Just because I wasn't there with a Nikon in hand, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
So there you go.....there were a lot of people around in that day who never personally saw Jesus Christ step out of that tomb, alive and well. No one in this day saw it happen. Yet there have been millions of people, including VPW, who believed and do believe it.
I'm not trying to promote my beliefs over anyone else's here. This is the only example I can think of. Maybe it doesn't quite fit, I don't know. But what I'm trying to convey to you is that you are insisting on solid, objective, easily recognized facts when sometimes it's just not available. Do you believe Neil Armstrong walked on the moon? How can you be sure? Because you saw the video camera? Maybe that was faked. Maybe the earth is flat - have you ever personally sailed around the world?
One's man's reality can easily be another man's joke. You ever think about live and let live?
I mean, I have friends from all walks of life. When I worked in a huge teaching hospital, at least half the employees there were from other countries and were Muslim or Hindu, or whatever. We all respected each other and tried to get along. While you are entitled to your opinion indeed, others are entitled to theirs.
My suggestion, if you continue to be so nasty to the hurting, would be everyone you've hurt and offended put you on ignore. I personally don't read all your posts any more. They are just too irritating.
My suggestion, if you continue to be so nasty to the hurting, would be everyone you've hurt and offended put you on ignore. I personally don't read all your posts any more. They are just too irritating.
That's what I did.
My thoughts are - he's been here for what? 2,000+ posts. He's like... 50+ years old. Set in his ways and thinking. You guys have been trying to convince him for over 5 years what you guys have said is true? He doesn't believe you. Why bother trying to convince someone like that?
Maybe WD is a decent fellow when it comes to stuff that has nothing to do with the way. And I don't mind hearing someone's nice days in TWI - or hell - if they like VP and sing his praises I'm not going to complain - but I get sick of reading: "I object! Liar! Liar! But I didn't call everyone a liar! Putting words in my mouth?" Every other post. So... blocked.
When I meet people here I don't look at their post count or when they joined - at all. But when I read something like: "You've been saying this horrible thing since Waydale." It's like: and you are still trying to convince him otherwise?
Like Bumpy said - it's just freaking boring. It's like talking to brick wall. Why bother?
Just keep telling everyone what happened to you - good or bad and ignore the guy who can't be convinced that your own experiences are true or not.
Nero, I don't find WD boring yet... maybe in a couple of years I will, but I hope I'll still be around to defend others' rights to speak up at that point, instead of ignoring him and letting him bully them into silence. at this point he serves another service to me, and that is regaining some of the acuity of thought that withered away with neglect in twi. where I was required to swallow in twi, I can question and analyze here and everywhere else I'm privileged to go. where Bumpy and others find it boring, I find it educational. dooj, Tom, WW and many others have brought up erudite questions which WD has failed to address. the experience has helped me immensely in getting over my fear of people who push and bully their way into rightness.
WD, there are NO objective FACTS to prove that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, dead, buried and on the third day arose from the dead. He ascended into heaven from whence he shall return to judge the quick and the dead. No FACTS. Just TRUTH, at least to me, a Christian. Just because I wasn't there with a Nikon in hand, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Exactly the point Thanks there are are those here on this board that think what you believe is superstition because of the fact that there is no proof. why don't you believe them when they tell you that as you do when they say other things ? Because its their opinion thats why..........
Well, some times too...I find that in having to formulate the thoughts to have to counter the accusations..many times I become much clearer in my understanding.
The thing is....in twi and for many years afterwards...people actually could shut me down with mean words...they could shame me into silence by accusing me of wrong doing....people could embarrass me into silence with personal attacks....it wouldn`t take much to draw me off on a tangent with deliberate misinterpretation of what I wrote and lead the crucifixion on what they SAY I said....
The cruel bullying made me a whole lot stronger person than I was when I left twi. It was a wonderfull day here when I realized that nobody could ever intimidate me into silence ever again with their dissaproval, or their brandishing of scriptures....or when they ganged up and tried to paint an unflattering picture of my life, my opinions, my mental in stability, and probable parental ancestry...
These lessons have served me well in my personal day to day life outside of greasespot.
I have had to learn to stand up and defend myself. I have learned to think my own thoughts and hold my own opinions while under attack, instead of slinking away with my tail tucked between my legs in intimidation.
The cruel bullying made me a whole lot stronger person than I was when I left twi. It was a wonderfull day here when I realized that nobody could ever intimidate me into silence ever again with their dissaproval, or their brandishing of scriptures....or when they ganged up and tried to paint an unflattering picture of my life, my opinions, my mental in stability, and probable parental ancestry...
Hey WD... rascal just posted a very clear picture of YOU... bullying, intimidation, brandishing scripture...
Hey WD... rascal just posted a very clear picture of YOU... bullying, intimidation, brandishing scripture...
Yes, a fine example of a Christian you are!
Personal attack noted........ I'll look into my options I don't see were stating my opinion did any of the things you accuse me of. Were you scared of my opinion ? If not then again I guess you misrepresent me.
Personal attack noted........ I'll look into my options I don't see were stating my opinion did any of the things you accuse me of. Were you scared of my opinion ? If not then again I guess you misrepresent me.
no "personal attack"... merely an enlightened observation.
Dove, what you do hurts period. The portrait you paint of me and others here is not accurate...and I think that deep down inside that you really know it.
Justify, excuse, rationalize all you please....but it doesn`t change the end result of your behavior.
WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
I wanted to comment on teachings w/r to this. First of all outside of the classes videotaped, and STS, there was virtually no quality control on any teachings. Leaders were and probably are free to teach whatever they want. If people complained enough and reported the teachings depending on the timeframe in the ministry they would either be blackballed by the leader, or if they could get enough public opinion going could get the leader removed or moved.
For someone to say "I never heard that taught - prove it" is pretty stupid. Prove that it didn't get taught. With the known lack of quality control in the structure, and the known personal abuses, it is much more likely to your average reasonable man that a lot of crap did get taught. Now on the other side of the coin, is there a responsibility to check things taught against the Word and ensure they are rightly divided for each person? I certainly have heard some pretty wacked out things in teachings, have gone home and considered them, and come to the conclusion "that is pretty much BS", regardless of the title of the teacher. Don't believe everything everyone tells you. I even remember hearing something in a quote about "the fleeting shadow of a few great names".
One of the biggest problems there is the accountability from HQ for misbehavior in teaching or action. This is why the lawsuits got settled, because paying $1M or whatever was the lesser of 2 evils to the BOD than facing the public depositions detailing knowledge of abuse. Yes, absolutely there is accountability for abuse with people placing leaders in charge. And how they have always handled it is by ad hominem attack on those bringing up charges, and sweeping it under the carpet.
And there's these leaders that love their little positions and titles. That is nothing more than the love of money (figurative power and influence money can buy included) being the root of all evil. God thinks more of the new Christian asking for forgiveness for all their sins than these pinheads who pretend to talk for Him, control people, and present a holier than thou image.
With the marriage teachings, I mean look at the source. You're not exactly going to get a lot of solidarity out of VPW or LCM in that category of life. Beating or denigrating women is abuse, adultery is sin, sex for manipulation will just cause problems. However, seducing your spouse at the right time can be a hell of a lot of fun for both. And gourmet cooking or a nice meal initiated by either spouse can be great foreplay.
All right, the meter on my .02 is saying "expired".
I'm sorry, WD but you have things turned around. If something happened to me it is my experience. That in and of itself is what is true. NOW, you may not accept my account as true, but your belief in the verity of my experience does not change what is true.
If a man commits murder he is guilty. It may not be proven in a court of law. That doesn't make him innocent - it merely says that in a court of law there was not enough evidence to declare him guilty. HIS acts are what make him guilty in truth and in fact. He is not "Innocent." He is merely "Not Guilty."
So while you may say that if I don't have a way to verify my negative or positive experiences, they are no less what they are. I see how you can sit there and refuse to accept them as fact- but I truly feel like you are holding to a legal standard with an almost illogical amount of tenacity.
Dooj: Just had to comment on your post because I thought it was awesome. Great statements. Great logic. I cannot help but feel that since these awful events spoken of occurred to more than one person, lots of people actually, it is easier for me to believe them, then not to, even though they did not happen to me personally. There were many other things that did happen that I knew weren't from God. Yet, for so many years I ignored the "masses" of people who said TWI was a cult and instead insisted I knew better and that the rest of the world was wrong.
Some people say there is no truth, only perception. I could say what I perceive WD to be, but it wouldn't be very nice.
Sounds a lot like 50 Fellow Laborers at a 5:30 AM meeting.(after a wholesome meal of cabbage soup the night before)
TVT TVT TVT TVT!
Heck, I spent 2+ years hearing lots and lots of TVTs.
Uhmmmm----The teaching kind that is.
I'm quite sure none of it was recorded or documented in anything as formal as an actual book.
Still, there it was, day after day after day after day of---TVT!
(Verbal teaching, not enshrined for posterity in any sort of permanent format.)
Yep, One time I even heard a TVT that claimed you could drastically reduce or even eliminate the need to sleep by simply increasing your amount of speaking in tongues. Uh-Huh. Ya see if we would all just speak in tongues more, we could cut our required sleep hours and devote more time to the work of the ministry.
I heard that taught by the men's coordinator of FLO in approximately 1975.
Where did he get that idea?
Do you suppose it came from his superiors?
Watered Garden was in that meeting. So was her (then future) hubby.
There might be some others here as well who were in that meeting.
So now, what? Even though 50 people heard it taught as if it was God given revelation, it doesn't count as something we were taught because it's really just a TVT, not written or taped?
Lots and lots of what permeated the ministry as being Gospel truth was really just a bunch of TVT TVT TVT TVT!
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Tom Strange
You're such a swell guy WD.
How about if someone, anyone, told YOU that any of the bad things that happened to you never occurred nor were they "true" because they weren't there to personally see them... or because you didn't have videotape... or because you didn't have sworn affidavits???
How would you feel then WD? Would you then just pack it in and say "gee, I guess that stuff didn't happen to me"?
I thought not.
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WhiteDove
No I would say I believe that they happened to me but without proof I understand that you can not verify either way if it did or not. You can feel free to accept them based on my swell personality, my good looks, or just because you have a hunch I am telling you the truth ,but that does not mean that what I say is truth without first pasing the test of what truth is.
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doojable
I'm sorry, WD but you have things turned around. If something happened to me it is my experience. That in and of itself is what is true. NOW, you may not accept my account as true, but your belief in the verity of my experience does not change what is true.
If a man commits murder he is guilty. It may not be proven in a court of law. That doesn't make him innocent - it merely says that in a court of law there was not enough evidence to declare him guilty. HIS acts are what make him guilty in truth and in fact. He is not "Innocent." He is merely "Not Guilty."
So while you may say that if I don't have a way to verify my negative or positive experiences, they are no less what they are. I see how you can sit there and refuse to accept them as fact- but I truly feel like you are holding to a legal standard with an almost illogical amount of tenacity.
We have all been frustrated by watching a criminal get off the hook on a legal technicality. In a way you are providing that same technicality for lots of wrongs at the hands of TWI leadership.
As to the teachings in TWI. There were a lot of things that got taught by ordained men and women that were never written down. Perhaps some of these teachings found their way to audio tape - but I for one discarded all teachings and Way Prod tapes when I left. There was an official stance taken on many issues and there was also an unofficial stance. A BC would teach something, which would make it up the Way Tree to the Limb. Sometimes these things got addressed, sometimes they got ignored. The teachings and doctrines were never addressed in print because the errors were never printed.
There is a difference in adhering to the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law. Lawyers play this grey area up all the time.
*Edited to add that *I* doesn't refer to *me* as much as it refers to anyone telling a personal experience.*
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Tom Strange
for some reason I really don't think that you'd react so calmly to someone repeatedly telling you that what personally happened to you didn't "pass the test of what truth is"...
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WordWolf
Somehow,
I have trouble buying that one, as well...
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Bumpy
aaaahh! P R E S E N T A T I O N !!! Like in packaging?... And un-Wrapping the Packing?
Can we play with this idea a little more in that CF&Sex thread?? Might help to get people's minds off the subject of Proof / No Proof / Alcohol Proof / And Pooof goes the magic Champagne cork for Christmas!
Besides, my new friend in the corner has a very low tolerance for boring holiday conversation which everyone knows, will go no where...
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Watered Garden
WD, there are NO objective FACTS to prove that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, dead, buried and on the third day arose from the dead. He ascended into heaven from whence he shall return to judge the quick and the dead. No FACTS. Just TRUTH, at least to me, a Christian. Just because I wasn't there with a Nikon in hand, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
So there you go.....there were a lot of people around in that day who never personally saw Jesus Christ step out of that tomb, alive and well. No one in this day saw it happen. Yet there have been millions of people, including VPW, who believed and do believe it.
I'm not trying to promote my beliefs over anyone else's here. This is the only example I can think of. Maybe it doesn't quite fit, I don't know. But what I'm trying to convey to you is that you are insisting on solid, objective, easily recognized facts when sometimes it's just not available. Do you believe Neil Armstrong walked on the moon? How can you be sure? Because you saw the video camera? Maybe that was faked. Maybe the earth is flat - have you ever personally sailed around the world?
One's man's reality can easily be another man's joke. You ever think about live and let live?
I mean, I have friends from all walks of life. When I worked in a huge teaching hospital, at least half the employees there were from other countries and were Muslim or Hindu, or whatever. We all respected each other and tried to get along. While you are entitled to your opinion indeed, others are entitled to theirs.
My suggestion, if you continue to be so nasty to the hurting, would be everyone you've hurt and offended put you on ignore. I personally don't read all your posts any more. They are just too irritating.
WG
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Nero
That's what I did.
My thoughts are - he's been here for what? 2,000+ posts. He's like... 50+ years old. Set in his ways and thinking. You guys have been trying to convince him for over 5 years what you guys have said is true? He doesn't believe you. Why bother trying to convince someone like that?
Maybe WD is a decent fellow when it comes to stuff that has nothing to do with the way. And I don't mind hearing someone's nice days in TWI - or hell - if they like VP and sing his praises I'm not going to complain - but I get sick of reading: "I object! Liar! Liar! But I didn't call everyone a liar! Putting words in my mouth?" Every other post. So... blocked.
When I meet people here I don't look at their post count or when they joined - at all. But when I read something like: "You've been saying this horrible thing since Waydale." It's like: and you are still trying to convince him otherwise?
Like Bumpy said - it's just freaking boring. It's like talking to brick wall. Why bother?
Just keep telling everyone what happened to you - good or bad and ignore the guy who can't be convinced that your own experiences are true or not.
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potato
Nero, I don't find WD boring yet... maybe in a couple of years I will, but I hope I'll still be around to defend others' rights to speak up at that point, instead of ignoring him and letting him bully them into silence. at this point he serves another service to me, and that is regaining some of the acuity of thought that withered away with neglect in twi. where I was required to swallow in twi, I can question and analyze here and everywhere else I'm privileged to go. where Bumpy and others find it boring, I find it educational. dooj, Tom, WW and many others have brought up erudite questions which WD has failed to address. the experience has helped me immensely in getting over my fear of people who push and bully their way into rightness.
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WhiteDove
Exactly the point Thanks there are are those here on this board that think what you believe is superstition because of the fact that there is no proof. why don't you believe them when they tell you that as you do when they say other things ? Because its their opinion thats why..........
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rascal
Well, some times too...I find that in having to formulate the thoughts to have to counter the accusations..many times I become much clearer in my understanding.
The thing is....in twi and for many years afterwards...people actually could shut me down with mean words...they could shame me into silence by accusing me of wrong doing....people could embarrass me into silence with personal attacks....it wouldn`t take much to draw me off on a tangent with deliberate misinterpretation of what I wrote and lead the crucifixion on what they SAY I said....
The cruel bullying made me a whole lot stronger person than I was when I left twi. It was a wonderfull day here when I realized that nobody could ever intimidate me into silence ever again with their dissaproval, or their brandishing of scriptures....or when they ganged up and tried to paint an unflattering picture of my life, my opinions, my mental in stability, and probable parental ancestry...
These lessons have served me well in my personal day to day life outside of greasespot.
I have had to learn to stand up and defend myself. I have learned to think my own thoughts and hold my own opinions while under attack, instead of slinking away with my tail tucked between my legs in intimidation.
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Tom Strange
Hey WD... rascal just posted a very clear picture of YOU... bullying, intimidation, brandishing scripture...
Yes, a fine example of a Christian you are!
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WhiteDove
Personal attack noted........ I'll look into my options I don't see were stating my opinion did any of the things you accuse me of. Were you scared of my opinion ? If not then again I guess you misrepresent me.
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Tom Strange
no "personal attack"... merely an enlightened observation.
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rascal
Dove, what you do hurts period. The portrait you paint of me and others here is not accurate...and I think that deep down inside that you really know it.
Justify, excuse, rationalize all you please....but it doesn`t change the end result of your behavior.
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cman
Nothing wrong with having an opinion and voicing it.
Just like facts and truth.
This isn't twi, and many here do not go by it's law.
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chockfull
I wanted to comment on teachings w/r to this. First of all outside of the classes videotaped, and STS, there was virtually no quality control on any teachings. Leaders were and probably are free to teach whatever they want. If people complained enough and reported the teachings depending on the timeframe in the ministry they would either be blackballed by the leader, or if they could get enough public opinion going could get the leader removed or moved.
For someone to say "I never heard that taught - prove it" is pretty stupid. Prove that it didn't get taught. With the known lack of quality control in the structure, and the known personal abuses, it is much more likely to your average reasonable man that a lot of crap did get taught. Now on the other side of the coin, is there a responsibility to check things taught against the Word and ensure they are rightly divided for each person? I certainly have heard some pretty wacked out things in teachings, have gone home and considered them, and come to the conclusion "that is pretty much BS", regardless of the title of the teacher. Don't believe everything everyone tells you. I even remember hearing something in a quote about "the fleeting shadow of a few great names".
One of the biggest problems there is the accountability from HQ for misbehavior in teaching or action. This is why the lawsuits got settled, because paying $1M or whatever was the lesser of 2 evils to the BOD than facing the public depositions detailing knowledge of abuse. Yes, absolutely there is accountability for abuse with people placing leaders in charge. And how they have always handled it is by ad hominem attack on those bringing up charges, and sweeping it under the carpet.
And there's these leaders that love their little positions and titles. That is nothing more than the love of money (figurative power and influence money can buy included) being the root of all evil. God thinks more of the new Christian asking for forgiveness for all their sins than these pinheads who pretend to talk for Him, control people, and present a holier than thou image.
With the marriage teachings, I mean look at the source. You're not exactly going to get a lot of solidarity out of VPW or LCM in that category of life. Beating or denigrating women is abuse, adultery is sin, sex for manipulation will just cause problems. However, seducing your spouse at the right time can be a hell of a lot of fun for both. And gourmet cooking or a nice meal initiated by either spouse can be great foreplay.
All right, the meter on my .02 is saying "expired".
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Tom Strange
Watchit chockfull! you'll be accused of a personal attack or namecalling!
oh... and your post contained a number of good and valid points...
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irisheyes
Dooj: Just had to comment on your post because I thought it was awesome. Great statements. Great logic. I cannot help but feel that since these awful events spoken of occurred to more than one person, lots of people actually, it is easier for me to believe them, then not to, even though they did not happen to me personally. There were many other things that did happen that I knew weren't from God. Yet, for so many years I ignored the "masses" of people who said TWI was a cult and instead insisted I knew better and that the rest of the world was wrong.
Some people say there is no truth, only perception. I could say what I perceive WD to be, but it wouldn't be very nice.
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Mike
Please let me ask if this is the root of the issue with White Dove here.
1. On December 13th, in post number 234 of this thread, White Dove quoted a rascal post and then briefly commented on it.
2. The rascal quote reads: “I remember being taught in twi, that if my husband ever...” She then listed several items.
3. White Dove’s comment was: “I was just wondering just when and where this was taught. I seem to have missed that class”
Is that IT?
***
My judgment:
1. Rascal heard that “teaching” from a TVT (Twi Verbal Tradition)
2. White Dove never heard that in a class.
3. I never heard it in a class, nor on a tape, nor read it in a book or magazine.
4. I did hear it in a TVT or two.
5. Case Dismissed!
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waysider
TVT!
HaHaHaHaHa
Try pronouncing that like it's a word.
TVT TVT TVT TVT!
Sounds a lot like 50 Fellow Laborers at a 5:30 AM meeting.(after a wholesome meal of cabbage soup the night before)
TVT TVT TVT TVT!
Heck, I spent 2+ years hearing lots and lots of TVTs.
Uhmmmm----The teaching kind that is.
I'm quite sure none of it was recorded or documented in anything as formal as an actual book.
Still, there it was, day after day after day after day of---TVT!
(Verbal teaching, not enshrined for posterity in any sort of permanent format.)
Yep, One time I even heard a TVT that claimed you could drastically reduce or even eliminate the need to sleep by simply increasing your amount of speaking in tongues. Uh-Huh. Ya see if we would all just speak in tongues more, we could cut our required sleep hours and devote more time to the work of the ministry.
I heard that taught by the men's coordinator of FLO in approximately 1975.
Where did he get that idea?
Do you suppose it came from his superiors?
Watered Garden was in that meeting. So was her (then future) hubby.
There might be some others here as well who were in that meeting.
So now, what? Even though 50 people heard it taught as if it was God given revelation, it doesn't count as something we were taught because it's really just a TVT, not written or taped?
Lots and lots of what permeated the ministry as being Gospel truth was really just a bunch of TVT TVT TVT TVT!
(The cabbage induced variety.)
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Mike
I don't doubt it.
TVTs started earlier than 1975.
We were supposed to line things up with the Word.
TVTs drifted from the Word, and they got more abundant as time went on (as well as drifting farther and farther),
because we OLGs (Older Leaderlike Grads) became less diligent in lining things up with the written doctrine we were given.
We went with the verbal more and more. It was denser in some places, less in others, but in the end TVTs prevailed.
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waysider
Hi there, MIKE!!
Just for shirts and girdles, can you show me where it does NOT line up with the Word?
Hurry, MIKE, hurry!!!
Don't forget, you're in the middle of an ongoing meeting. No time to stop and do "word studies".
OOPS! Sorry, MIKE, we couldn't wait for you to research the subject.
We've moved on to something else now.
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Mike
Well, there's time now.
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