And OM, WD isn't just stating that it's "his opinion"... he's stated that those things did not happen "in the name of TWI"...
One more time That is not what I stated. I said that they are not documentable as facts and as such can not be accepted as truth. because they do not fit within the definition...
TRUTH
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
WD isn't just stating that it's "his opinion"... he's stated that those things did not happen "in the name of TWI"...
Like when I saw a barely eighteen year old lady being counselled by the limb guy to just "get laid" and "get over it" who happened to be in a twi sanctioned training program.. just had a simple question about a creep in twig that wouldn't keep his hands off.. several of us could not avoid hearing this little counselling session through two solid oak doors..
Or like other guys who were conditioned to abuse their wives with the right cue from the limb leader at the time.. oh, they were in the same program.
like.. the advice given to parents to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one can hear the screams as they beat the *(&^ out of him or her..
or the limb guy who publically boasted that he had previously given some "cop out" the same advice..
seventy or so of us must be wrong. No documentation there..
or.. the poor women who reported abuse and got counsel like "he's just distracted. Maybe he needs more sex.."
Or the women counselled to get abortions. Can't dissapoint gawd, and fail the "training"..
I know one couple who refused.. they were labelled scum of the earth. I think her parents caught them when they were thrown out before they hit the ground..
That's all I can remember, at the time..
naw, it wasn't twi. No no. It was just their doctrine, their training programs, their "leaders".
Don't wanna blame a has been, devilish, destructive, arrogant "we have da answers" ministry now, do we?
I imagine you do OM... but folks questioning (like you) are in a very small minority... but that doesn't mean that other folks didn't get sharply reproved for 'questioning leaders'... we know that happened as well...
Not at all only here where there have collected a small group of exway in the overall number that participated over the years. One would expect the same from a site that only wants to tell the "other side" not equal sides In the larger scheme of all this would be a minority.
Like when I saw a barely eighteen year old lady being counselled by the limb guy to just "get laid" and "get over it" who happened to be in a twi sanctioned training program.. just had a simple question about a creep in twig that wouldn't keep his hands off.. several of us could not avoid hearing this little counselling session through two solid oak doors..
Or like other guys who were conditioned to abuse their wives with the right cue from the limb leader at the time.. oh, they were in the same program.
like.. the advice given to parents to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one can hear the screams as they beat the *(&^ out of him or her..
or the limb guy who publically boasted that he had previously given some "cop out" the same advice..
seventy or so of us must be wrong. No documentation there..
or.. the poor women who reported abuse and got counsel like "he's just distracted. Maybe he needs more sex.."
Or the women counselled to get abortions. Can't dissapoint gawd, and fail the "training"..
I know one couple who refused.. they were labelled scum of the earth. I think her parents caught them when they were thrown out before they hit the ground..
That's all I can remember, at the time..
naw, it wasn't twi. No no. It was just their doctrine, their training programs, their "leaders".
Don't wanna blame a has been, devilish, destructive, arrogant "we have da answers" ministry now, do we?
Hamm, just from a squirrels perspective, WAY HIGH UP in the WAY TREE, Every time you come up with this stuff...it's only more of the same, hearsay!
It's only gossip, until someone takes it to court and wins the case! If you 'knew' so much, WHY didn't you come down from your tree and do something about it?
Is anyone else as tired of this as I am? (my bold italics)
One more time That is not what I stated. I said that they are not documentable as facts and as such can not be accepted as truth. because they do not fit within the definition...
TRUTH
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
whose 'fact or reality' WD? YOURS? what was 'fact or reality' to YOU appears to have been quite different for others... we didn't all hide out in kansas all of our lives.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
'verified by whom WD? you seem to require DNA or a videotape if someone's experience doesn't match yours. If it didn't happen to YOU it's in dispute!
I was a kid, a young kid.. no parents, no real refuge, no real place to go.
what are you gonna do, bite the hand that feeds you?
I did have an aunt and uncle. They had unsuccessfully attempted to have their kid deprogrammed who was in der vey. That kinda trashed any chance of any kind of relationship with remaining relations.
Not at all only here where there have collected a small group of exway in the overall number that participated over the years. One would expect the same from a site that only wants to tell the "other side" not equal sides In the larger scheme of all this would be a minority.
well... TWI (and you) are still out there telling (what appears to be) the "true" side... and we (mostly) were told it for all of the years we were "in"... actually had it poured down our willing throats... only some of us have woken up and found that it wasn't all "true"...
...other than those that are ex-pats living abroad!
That sounds like a question best answered by you. I didn't get the impression that the woman had to want sex all the time - just make her hubby think she did/does.
It seems the point of the book is that the woman should be ready for anything - 24/7. I never read that book. I think it was required reading for in-rez women who were going to be getting married in the Corps weddings - but I really don't know for sure.
You all have been talking about a lot since I posted my respomse to White Doves post on the 15th. Since White Dove requires accuracy I hope you all will bear with me as I answer his question to me. I'll have to catch up with all you've been talking about after that, I hope you all don't mind me bringing it back to the 15th.
White Dove,
In response to my rebuking you after both pleading with you to stop calling people dishonest, and reproving you for your dishonesty; you asked me if I wanted to "sideline critic mine," refering to yourself as the critic I believe.
My response is as follows,
I believe this is a valuable topic where we could help hurting people a tremendous amount. If we were alowed to consider rascal's post of Dec. 15th, 01: 16 pm we would see that she's not demonizing anyone. She's balanced as far as placing blame and isn't talking down to anyone. cmans response right after rascal's post is balanced too, it has a lot of good things to consider in terms of helping someone overcome abusive religious pasts.
So because of the hurting people and the potential for people being actually helped right here and right now, I am very weary of you succesfully coopting this topic on to another track for your own reasons. What are Your reasons?, I'm not sure because I don't know your whole history. But what I am saying is your handling of this topic is off track, unhelpful, and brings to mind for me the bullying sometimes done by leadership in the old days, as many on this site have experienced for themselves.
Yeah, If you can't track with the topic here, go to the sideline critic you.
I was a kid, a young kid.. no parents, no real refuge, no real place to go.
what are you gonna do, bite the hand that feeds you?
I did have an aunt and uncle. They had unsuccessfully attempted to have their kid deprogrammed who was in der vey. That kinda trashed any chance of any kind of relationship with remaining relations.
Mr. Squirrel, I know you're a nice "sciurus" rodent creature... Like all the children sexually abused by the priests of the church, it took years of investigations and hundreds of complaints backed by the same methodical legal enquiries as to 'what happened' to ESTABLISH the case and eventually prosecute it.
No One wanted to believe that little Johnny Jump Up's Peter Meter was actually being played with. What Der Vey got away with, besides all the money, was a LONG day in court that never would have ended. The reasons being varied and intertwined with excuses, the Allens were the only ones, (as far as I know) to succeed in their legal claims. It cost the guy stocking shelves in Ohio somewhere, his holy grail furry mantle.
Too little too late, now it's just trivial pursuits of complaints by the supposed injured. No place to go with that except gs and to dream about what justice might have been?
No loose change here, just my two cents, WS. When I first got in the ministry (circa 1971) there was a book about how women could be good wives. For the life of me (i.e., "age-related"), I cannot remember the name of it. It was a silly little book about--are you ready for this?--how to build up a man's ego so you can get what you want from him. This book was extremely pushed at fellowship, classes (especially CFS), etc. If anyone remembers the name of it, please put it out there so anyone still interested can read it. I only brought it up to show how far back TWI's mind-set on all this went. And, I don't really care if WD believes me or not
Irish eyes, I think the book you were referring to is "Fascinating Womanhood". It was still being pushed in 1974 when I got in.
Even while I sympathise with your thoughts of "What justice might have been", There's something that helps me to consider. The promise of justice coming. I believe the promises in the bible about this, (but that's just me) and I don't know for sure if it's a comfort to you, But I hope it is.
If I can help any of the injured go on, It's worth talking about it to me.
Too little too late, now it's just trivial pursuits of complaints by the supposed injured. No place to go with that except gs and to dream about what justice might have been?
there will be no justice in this lifetime, Bumpy. anyone who has spoken with lawyers over this stuff has had to face the hard truth. statutes of limitation apply, and events that occurred behind closed doors with people with selective memories insure that the truth is obscured. the only thing we've got is knowing we weren't alone in being victimized, and that it wasn't our fault as they had us convinced. as long as people keep telling us to shut up, they're not helping put the past behind where it belongs.... and a past in the past doesn't mean it's forgotten, either. I accept the fact that my ex abused me and my children and got the whole ministry involved in our lives to our great injury, it is what it is, and I still deal with the aftermath every day. it's the past, yes, but I don't know why I should consider it a secret or keep my mouth shut about it for fear of offending someone who can't stand the thought of someone being angry after being hurt. it's one of the stages of acceptance, it's going to happen and it might take more time than you're comfortable with, but so what? I don't see the point of hassling people over it. you do a lot of griping about people talking about their "supposed injuries", but what's your objective, really? what do you hope to achieve, or are you just whining?
Too little too late, now it's just trivial pursuits of complaints by the supposed injured. No place to go with that except gs and to dream about what justice might have been?
not really. That's not the real point here.
Strange as it sounds.. this is one of the few places in the world that I think people can actually understand me.
Strange as it sounds.. this is one of the few places in the world that I think people can actually understand me.
You're Right, It's not the real point here! Besides, you've been a squirrel for so long, I suppose anything you say here would be appreciated as long as it didn't sound too "nuttified"...whatever that is!
Not at all only here where there have collected a small group of exway in the overall number that participated over the years. One would expect the same from a site that only wants to tell the "other side" not equal sides In the larger scheme of all this would be a minority.
The owner of the site states "telling the other side" as his goal, but it is certainly not the goal of everyone here. Supporters of Wierwille, PFAL and TWI doctrine have an outlet here that thsoe who are against Wierwille, PFAL and TWI do not have on pro-TWI sites.
IMHO in the "larger scheme" minority status is only assumed because most places that I've seen don't allow negative comments about TWI.
I accept the fact that my ex abused me and my children and got the whole ministry involved in our lives to our great injury, it is what it is, and I still deal with the aftermath every day. it's the past, yes, but I don't know why I should consider it a secret or keep my mouth shut about it for fear of offending someone who can't stand the thought of someone being angry after being hurt. it's one of the stages of acceptance, it's going to happen and it might take more time than you're comfortable with, but so what? I don't see the point of hassling people over it. you do a lot of griping about people talking about their "supposed injuries", but what's your objective, really? what do you hope to achieve, or are you just whining?
To make you into a SWEEEEEET POTATO!! :) :)
Honey, it's almost Christmas! Buy a bottle of something, turn up the music, have some friends over for a party! Enjoy LIFE!!
One more time That is not what I stated. I said that they are not documentable as facts and as such can not be accepted as truth. because they do not fit within the definition...
TRUTH
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
If that's not calling someone a liar, then what is it, WD? :unsure:
We have threads upon threads about the "unwritten" teachings and doctrines of TWI. You know darn well that kind of thing happened. Why, after all these years of a preponderance of evidence, you won't acknowledge that and why you continue to doubt the experience others had, I'll never understand.
Was it "The Total Woman," by Marabel Morgan? (A silly-a$$ed book if ever I read one)
WG
That was most definitely it. Thanks! And, I agree, for what it's worth. Was that the one with wrapping yourself in saran wrap to answer the door? As if ....
Irish eyes, I think the book you were referring to is "Fascinating Womanhood". It was still being pushed in 1974 when I got in.
tonto: I never would have admitted this way back when, but Fascinating Womanhood put me to sleep. At least Marabel was funny! I appreciate your time and input, however.
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WhiteDove
One more time That is not what I stated. I said that they are not documentable as facts and as such can not be accepted as truth. because they do not fit within the definition...
TRUTH
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
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Ham
Like when I saw a barely eighteen year old lady being counselled by the limb guy to just "get laid" and "get over it" who happened to be in a twi sanctioned training program.. just had a simple question about a creep in twig that wouldn't keep his hands off.. several of us could not avoid hearing this little counselling session through two solid oak doors..
Or like other guys who were conditioned to abuse their wives with the right cue from the limb leader at the time.. oh, they were in the same program.
like.. the advice given to parents to take their kid out in the wilderness where no one can hear the screams as they beat the *(&^ out of him or her..
or the limb guy who publically boasted that he had previously given some "cop out" the same advice..
seventy or so of us must be wrong. No documentation there..
or.. the poor women who reported abuse and got counsel like "he's just distracted. Maybe he needs more sex.."
Or the women counselled to get abortions. Can't dissapoint gawd, and fail the "training"..
I know one couple who refused.. they were labelled scum of the earth. I think her parents caught them when they were thrown out before they hit the ground..
That's all I can remember, at the time..
naw, it wasn't twi. No no. It was just their doctrine, their training programs, their "leaders".
Don't wanna blame a has been, devilish, destructive, arrogant "we have da answers" ministry now, do we?
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WhiteDove
Not at all only here where there have collected a small group of exway in the overall number that participated over the years. One would expect the same from a site that only wants to tell the "other side" not equal sides In the larger scheme of all this would be a minority.
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Bumpy
Hamm, just from a squirrels perspective, WAY HIGH UP in the WAY TREE, Every time you come up with this stuff...it's only more of the same, hearsay!
It's only gossip, until someone takes it to court and wins the case! If you 'knew' so much, WHY didn't you come down from your tree and do something about it?
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Tom Strange
Is anyone else as tired of this as I am? (my bold italics)
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Ham
If you really want to know..
I was a kid, a young kid.. no parents, no real refuge, no real place to go.
what are you gonna do, bite the hand that feeds you?
I did have an aunt and uncle. They had unsuccessfully attempted to have their kid deprogrammed who was in der vey. That kinda trashed any chance of any kind of relationship with remaining relations.
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skyrider
It seems to be the ONLY corner where WD can stand.....without walking across the newly-painted floor and exposing such foolish actions.
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Tom Strange
well... TWI (and you) are still out there telling (what appears to be) the "true" side... and we (mostly) were told it for all of the years we were "in"... actually had it poured down our willing throats... only some of us have woken up and found that it wasn't all "true"...
...other than those that are ex-pats living abroad!
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Nero
There is no spoon...
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Abigail
Boy that sure explains a lot!
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JeffSjo
Hi guys & White Dove,
You all have been talking about a lot since I posted my respomse to White Doves post on the 15th. Since White Dove requires accuracy I hope you all will bear with me as I answer his question to me. I'll have to catch up with all you've been talking about after that, I hope you all don't mind me bringing it back to the 15th.
White Dove,
In response to my rebuking you after both pleading with you to stop calling people dishonest, and reproving you for your dishonesty; you asked me if I wanted to "sideline critic mine," refering to yourself as the critic I believe.
My response is as follows,
I believe this is a valuable topic where we could help hurting people a tremendous amount. If we were alowed to consider rascal's post of Dec. 15th, 01: 16 pm we would see that she's not demonizing anyone. She's balanced as far as placing blame and isn't talking down to anyone. cmans response right after rascal's post is balanced too, it has a lot of good things to consider in terms of helping someone overcome abusive religious pasts.
So because of the hurting people and the potential for people being actually helped right here and right now, I am very weary of you succesfully coopting this topic on to another track for your own reasons. What are Your reasons?, I'm not sure because I don't know your whole history. But what I am saying is your handling of this topic is off track, unhelpful, and brings to mind for me the bullying sometimes done by leadership in the old days, as many on this site have experienced for themselves.
Yeah, If you can't track with the topic here, go to the sideline critic you.
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Bumpy
Mr. Squirrel, I know you're a nice "sciurus" rodent creature... Like all the children sexually abused by the priests of the church, it took years of investigations and hundreds of complaints backed by the same methodical legal enquiries as to 'what happened' to ESTABLISH the case and eventually prosecute it.
No One wanted to believe that little Johnny Jump Up's Peter Meter was actually being played with. What Der Vey got away with, besides all the money, was a LONG day in court that never would have ended. The reasons being varied and intertwined with excuses, the Allens were the only ones, (as far as I know) to succeed in their legal claims. It cost the guy stocking shelves in Ohio somewhere, his holy grail furry mantle.
Too little too late, now it's just trivial pursuits of complaints by the supposed injured. No place to go with that except gs and to dream about what justice might have been?
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tonto
Back on page 21,
Irish eyes, I think the book you were referring to is "Fascinating Womanhood". It was still being pushed in 1974 when I got in.
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JeffSjo
Hi Bumpy,
Even while I sympathise with your thoughts of "What justice might have been", There's something that helps me to consider. The promise of justice coming. I believe the promises in the bible about this, (but that's just me) and I don't know for sure if it's a comfort to you, But I hope it is.
If I can help any of the injured go on, It's worth talking about it to me.
I AM VERY WEARY OF IT WHITE DOVE, I'M JUST SAYING
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potato
there will be no justice in this lifetime, Bumpy. anyone who has spoken with lawyers over this stuff has had to face the hard truth. statutes of limitation apply, and events that occurred behind closed doors with people with selective memories insure that the truth is obscured. the only thing we've got is knowing we weren't alone in being victimized, and that it wasn't our fault as they had us convinced. as long as people keep telling us to shut up, they're not helping put the past behind where it belongs.... and a past in the past doesn't mean it's forgotten, either. I accept the fact that my ex abused me and my children and got the whole ministry involved in our lives to our great injury, it is what it is, and I still deal with the aftermath every day. it's the past, yes, but I don't know why I should consider it a secret or keep my mouth shut about it for fear of offending someone who can't stand the thought of someone being angry after being hurt. it's one of the stages of acceptance, it's going to happen and it might take more time than you're comfortable with, but so what? I don't see the point of hassling people over it. you do a lot of griping about people talking about their "supposed injuries", but what's your objective, really? what do you hope to achieve, or are you just whining?
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Ham
not really. That's not the real point here.
Strange as it sounds.. this is one of the few places in the world that I think people can actually understand me.
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Bumpy
You're Right, It's not the real point here! Besides, you've been a squirrel for so long, I suppose anything you say here would be appreciated as long as it didn't sound too "nuttified"...whatever that is!
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Oakspear
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not say that your statements imply anything.
So..what exactly is your point of your statement? Why say it in the context of people making negative statements about TWI?
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Oakspear
IMHO in the "larger scheme" minority status is only assumed because most places that I've seen don't allow negative comments about TWI.
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Bumpy
To make you into a SWEEEEEET POTATO!! :) :)
Honey, it's almost Christmas! Buy a bottle of something, turn up the music, have some friends over for a party! Enjoy LIFE!!
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Belle
If that's not calling someone a liar, then what is it, WD? :unsure:
We have threads upon threads about the "unwritten" teachings and doctrines of TWI. You know darn well that kind of thing happened. Why, after all these years of a preponderance of evidence, you won't acknowledge that and why you continue to doubt the experience others had, I'll never understand.
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FaintWhispers
... she must have forgot to mention the importance of presentation
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irisheyes
That was most definitely it. Thanks! And, I agree, for what it's worth. Was that the one with wrapping yourself in saran wrap to answer the door? As if ....
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irisheyes
tonto: I never would have admitted this way back when, but Fascinating Womanhood put me to sleep. At least Marabel was funny! I appreciate your time and input, however.
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