He's said before that men have-in his opinion-physical advantages, and women have verbal advantages.
So long as women have unrestricted verbal freedom-and can say WHATEVER they wish in whatever quantities,
and men do not have unrestricted physical freedom-and can strike HOWEVER they wish in whatever quantities,
an unlevel playing field exists,
it's not even fair to say men and women both have unrestricted verbal freedom.
I suppose that it is a good thing for me to be able to say that I simply do not understand the logic of an abusive individual. I just don't get it. As Oak said, a person must be a seriously mentally deprived individual to think in this manner. The term "mental midget" comes to mind.
Since there's some question as to what White Dove actually said, here are all of his posts on this thread since the argument started. I have not included quotes from people who he is responding to in all cases...too much work
I was just wondering just when and where this was taught. I seem to have missed that class
I guessed you missed the ugly part I responded to. Let me remind you
I love this new posting style here bait the poster then when they respond they are the bad one.
An old bull fighter once said if you don't want the bull then don't wave the red flag for him to come.
Rascal I have been to my share of couples advances as well ,so did my wife attend womens advances,marrying into the Corps I went through the grill as well. I never once heard such a doctrine propounded. I don't dismiss this as a isolated instance, I do notice in all of the people I know from all over the country the only place this seems to be the opinion - is here. Interesting other women do not share that opinion I find that telling coming from people that only want to post dailly of some complaint about The Way.
Nero the things you posted and the ones below are not the same there is a big difference between a biblical concept and teaching abuse. Being submissive is not equal to abuse. I'm submissive to my boss but not abuse. In fact it can be a great relationship where ideas are sought and exchanged. sometimes the submitter has the better idea, none the less the boss has the final say.
First different regions are just that, peoples opinions not the same as Way doctrine from The Way International just because one was involved with the way does not mean they always spoke on their behalf. There were thousands of people do you really expect me to believe that they could monitor and control what everyone said? Not the same as way doctrine
Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........
Oh, PS: The timeline for the submissive stuff I was taught was 1993-96. It was a big whoopty-do at the time and even earlier, when LCM was blaming wives for taking their husbands out of the ministry.
WG I don't doubt that which is why I said depending on who and what timeline it was spoken in
ummm... could that be because this is the most prominent ex-way site? ...could that be because others are still bound by fear of reprisal should they speak up?
It's 'of no profit' to waste time with you and the other veepee worshipers!
Why what are they going to do take away your bookstore privilages? Christians bound by Fear?
Yea Of course were veepee worshipers because we stand for fair and balanced facts not someone told me that they told them that theie twentyfith removed relative may have said so and so. They think... Tom all that ice is freezing your brain
Facts are facts opinion is opinion
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance, I've talked with those that have been there as well, I have notes from a few. No One I have found has the same story as you. You seem to want focus on that fact that I entered the Corps program from the back door so to speak. You have mentioned it a few times, A fact I have never hid, but I have a lot more interaction than you will ever know. I suppose this is just left over intimidation factor from the way days. It's not working..... Corps spouses were as much a part of the program as everyone else we faced the same accountability without the benefit of some of the in house experience I might add. I know we were looked down on as not good enough I guess you still feel the same. Apparently though some of us lesser's got the program better than the ones who made it through the in house version. I had a long talk with John T before entering into this option, I was well aware of the attitudes long before after much discussion he gave me some good advice He said all of us are where we are by the grace of God he sees us no differently. If others do thats their problem. He also added if someone needed an attitude adjustment on the subject that I could send them to him. Do you ?
You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed.
Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why?
Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness?
Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared.
The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened.
Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life?
How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened?
It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging.
Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable.
Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :(
I find it interesting that people with axes to grind daily here also are the only ones who mysteriously heard these undocumented doctrines. It has zero, not a thing to do with my perception or what I want to think just an obvious fact to consider, which by the way you still fail to understand my perception as evident by your remarks. I just would like to see some documentation ,verification by someone other than the person complaining. It's easy to claim anything if you don't have to produce any accountability. You may be a nice person I think so, having talked with you. That does not mean either of us always speaks the truth, which by the way does not make you a liar either ,Different thing. Loving God does not require sucking down everything everyone is laying down.
Do you think everyone who comes here everyday that has something bad to say about TWI is lying? Just a wondering.
Nope only the ones that obviously continue to do so day after day. what you posted I never disputed that is not the same as what Rascal posted submitting is in the Bible abuse is not simple as that.
Right unless someone has some sort of provable information it can not be passed off as fact, by definition Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.
Anyone that routinely deals with multiple stories of how events unfolded knows that one does not take the word of the participants at face value. Of course the robbers will tell you they did nothing wrong the others will chime in and agree. So does the policeman just shrug and say oh gee they are hurting I better just believe them. Hardly.... It's commen sense to know that until an accusation is provable it is not truth. Recently Mr. Vick was an alleged dog abuser some said he was, some said he was not. I'm sure his family said he was a good boy do we just believe them because they are hurting? Nope He got his day in court and the allegations were proved at that point they were no longer alleged but factual accusations. that’s how the process works if you want to make allegations about someone you best be prepared to prove your assault I've previously explained what a fact is refer to prior post. Until that time it is an opinion an should be referred to as such not a given truth until documented.
So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer?
Hey speaking of CFS I'm looking at a transcript from the class Gee What do I see Perhaps Way Doctrine Documentable even
Lets see Genesis 2:18 Helpmeet Means companion, one who brings out the best in a man (Not a slave,or dog,ect) He doesn't take advantage of her,doesn't raise hell with her.
Ephesians 5:22 Submit=subject see vs 24 Christ does not lord it over the church. If your man yells, jump? BALONEY (note the all Caps on that one)
Well there is plenty more but not going to waste the time You get the point here is documentable doctrine of the Way, is it any wonder people scrach their heads when some contrary thing appears an of course just must be believed on faith? There couldn't be any other reason why someone would just say such a thing.
Quick everyone! Let's jump on the time machine! We've gots-ta get video evidence to make some people happy! Oh! And DNA! Because we totally can't prove nuthin' without it. Thems are facts!
Because until then the victims are like robbers!
...
I've come to the conclusion that no one here needs to prove themselves to you. It's not like talking to you is going to help you reach some sort of enlightenment.
Half the time I wonder if you guys are just trolls rubbing your paws together and enjoying the way people jump like you know they will. Drama cows to be milked. I'm embarassed that I even replied... like I am replying now. Damn! XP
So anyways...
spouse abuse is bad... m'kay?
treating your wife or husband like garbage is bad too.
Where is that ignore button? Just in case...
You apparently don't understand how life works, too bad for you , there are accepted rules to proving your case, of course those that have no case don't like the rules. again too bad for you. your free to voice any opinion you want but opinion is not fact. Gee I bet Drew Peterson is hurting I guess we just accept his version of what happened to his wives as fact because he said so. Hey no proof needed he said it good enough for me. Lets just hold hands and be loving. Yeah it works like that..........
WD, if you consider what we say just our opinion, why does it bother you so much that we speak? amongst the group that actually experienced this stuff, it's more than an opinion and you actually don't HAVE to comment when we share our experiences. why are you compelled to lecture whenever someone didn't take appropriate action in YOUR opinion?
Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses. I have no problem with proven faults just I wannna say something here ones that have no logical basis for a case. here is why for anyone to be effective in proving their point or case for helping anyone to leave the site and information must be creditable. If it is not it is easy to make a case why what they say about GreaseSpot is true. One can simply point to any post and say see that is untrue they are just liars like we told you. Simple enough?
On the other hand if the information is honest truthful and documentable then they have no recourse now do they?
Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
Thanks you have answered my question it was not said, but some may have made a guess at what they meant and now that assumption has become, yes they said that . In reallity they did not. My point exactly what some seem to remember mostly was not, but rather something they asumed that someone was saying. Prime example
Ephesians 5: 22,23,24
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
One could read this verse and someone may assume it means beat your wife. Thats not what it says. I'm not interested in someone's guess or opinion of what they think someone may have said. Like I said not fact......... just opinion.
WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
Abigail
I don't doubt that at all , in fact I read that same advise all the time in most woman's of the major magazines. I don't see clock your wife there though..... Go figure
This is a topic that I'm thankful is being discussed. If I've gotten it correct, it's supposed to be about helping people deal with offences. I don't care if the offense is new or 20 years old, if someone is hurting they deserve to be helped through it.
White dove, your posts have been very counterproductive as far as anything good being accomplished. Quit forcing hurt people to defend the very fact that they're hurt. I don't know what kind of mindset would lead you to take a lawyer-like approach in an open setting like this where we can verify virtually nothing anybody is saying, but it is very off track with the stated purpose of this topic. PLEASE WHITE DOVE, EITHER HELP PEOPLE OR BE QUIET.
Being honest is a good start to help..........
Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption?
You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught....
Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point.
It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written.
Not at all. But I do see it as progress in getting to the real truth.
Which was in case you have forgotten : what people actually said vs what people say the said or thought they heard
She offered this instance to support her claim that and I quote" The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.'
I made this offer
So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer?
When faced with this offer then her reply was
The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
Origional statement = The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps
Final statement= Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
End result as a result of my offer to confirm this statement with the speaker the amended statement was"I said they said it but yes they really did not say it" but I understood that the implications were there. Not the same as saying it! As I have said all along. It is your opinion of what was said or meant which could be based on a variety of things including preconceived feelings on the issue. Which was the point all along, people are attributing quotes to people based on what they think they heard or think they said Not what they actually said.
Let me give you a simple example
WD says - This is a nice looking tomato.
Person Hears - This is a nice tomato to smash in your face.
Then says I heard him say he wanted to smash a tomato in my face
Not really what I said , just what they think they heard.
Yes White Dove, let's make it all about you instead of helping.
No one can be helped until they realize what they are doing. One must first show them that they are adding to statements people have said and calling them their words they are not
Thats the first step to speaking honestly.......
Whats your solution you seem to only want to sideline critic mine? Let me guess just accept and believe everything anyone says as truth?
So I'm guessing you can't find the quote where I said that or else you would have posted it rather than dodge the issue. Well let me help you out
HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID WORD FOR WORD YOUR WORDS NOT MINE..........
Rascal Ouote - The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario.
I never (as demenstrated by your lack of a quote from me saying anything remotly like that) said that. I never implied that I thought that anywhere in my posts. As a matter of fact anticipating that you would add to my words my intentions, like you do everyone elses I anicipated that move and posted the following just to make clear what I thought.
Post#281 Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all, but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance,
This was in responce to your post:
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
I specifically said that I had been to all types of advances.......... But not every advance. Not having been at every advance was a purposeful admission that I was not aware of everything ever taught anywhere. That should have been commen sense but just to make sure having knowledge of your previous actions of past I posted it.
Clearly I never said anything like that and you know it but it didn't matter to you you just wanted to say I did anyway so off it goes. Further not only did you make it up (that's make s**t up as I have discussed in the past) but you ignored that fact that I confirmed that was not my thinking in post 281. prior to yours.
To recap
1. You put words in my mouth that I never said.
2. You ignored words that I posted telling you that was not my thinking
3. You can't deny it ,Because there are no posts to prove it.
4. You then still try to justify your actions by changing the subject
You have proved my point exactly For whatever reason you think it is ok to add your personal interpretation to other's words and call it theirs. You just did it with mine here and you do with topics on the Way and former people involved therin here consistently.
The point was not as you put it:
Quote Rascal
Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened???
The point was that you misrepresent what people say by adding words or intentions not supplied by them to their words . Here is a classic example today, and yet you wonder why people accuse you of not speaking the truth and wonder why I don't trust what you say. You just did it here and you consistently do it to others because of your emotional anger ,I suppose you feel it is just ok to say what you want because you are angry. It Is Not and I will challenge it .
Right so there was no post to that effect another words...........Like I said
You know. I actually agree with earlier posts saying that if a relationship deteriorates to the point that there is hitting regularly or even anger, lack of peace, whatever, then the relationship should probably end. I wouldn't be posting now if I was constantly looking for an excuse to hit, as some imply. I'd be in a cell somewhere. But women can adversely affect a relationship at LEAST as well as men, and I just see a lot of "not my problem" attitude.
By the way, the definition I used for 'nag' is from a dictionary. It was not gender specific and the only other definition in this dictionary is about a horse.
what I find interesting.. I have the name and details of the guy who practically ran a "how to abuse your wife in der vey while looking religious in six easy lessons" apprenticeship program, and I get no reply from mr. "fair and balanced" here..
Won't make any difference, Oak. Even with video evidence, there is the slim possibility (which some will take to high art) of being able to deny it. They can do all sorts of things with film these days, what with double exposure and all that. I hear they can do stuff with those things called computers, where you can't tell what's real and what's not (The Transformers movie notwithstanding).
Notice the words *hit regularly*....as if once in a while is appropriate and understandible no doubt :(
The thing is....the definition of what constitutes *nagging* is questionable....heck, in my marriage...it seemed to escalate in direct relationship to how much the spouse had had to drink :(
One time I was knocked to the ground on Christmas eve for asking the spouse to go sit down with the kids who had been waiting for him all day while I prepared him something to eat.
Silly me, what a nag....I should have known better.
John, it is neveever ok. I teach my son`s that it is never ok...they are physically capable of restraining a woman without harming her, and are expected to do so ...even if she comes after them with a ball bat...you don`t think their sisters don`t ask for a good *clocking* every now and then??? Maybe that is the discipline that they aquired with years of martial arts training...maybe it is because they have been taught how to defuse a situation..maybe they aren`t so occupied with ego, that they can turn around and walk away.....maybe it is because they have learned how to be gentleman of character and morality. Whatever it is...if they were to ever hit a woman (or a man for that matter) in anything other than a life threatening situation...they would go to jail...they would be thrown out of karate school as well as have their membership to the federation yanked, and loose their belts.
That is what a person of good character and moral integrity, not to mention a christian gentleman does.
p.s. A note in defense of those who personally know us....The above incident related occurred many years ago, when way brain was still on full swing.....this is not the behavior of my spouse today, thank God.
No loose change here, just my two cents, WS. When I first got in the ministry (circa 1971) there was a book about how women could be good wives. For the life of me (i.e., "age-related"), I cannot remember the name of it. It was a silly little book about--are you ready for this?--how to build up a man's ego so you can get what you want from him. This book was extremely pushed at fellowship, classes (especially CFS), etc. If anyone remembers the name of it, please put it out there so anyone still interested can read it. I only brought it up to show how far back TWI's mind-set on all this went. And, I don't really care if WD believes me or not.
what I find interesting.. I have the name and details of the guy who practically ran a "how to abuse your wife in der vey while looking religious in six easy lessons" apprenticeship program, and I get no reply from mr. "fair and balanced" here..
No loose change here, just my two cents, WS. When I first got in the ministry (circa 1971) there was a book about how women could be good wives. For the life of me (i.e., "age-related"), I cannot remember the name of it. It was a silly little book about--are you ready for this?--how to build up a man's ego so you can get what you want from him. This book was extremely pushed at fellowship, classes (especially CFS), etc. If anyone remembers the name of it, please put it out there so anyone still interested can read it. I only brought it up to show how far back TWI's mind-set on all this went. And, I don't really care if WD believes me or not.
One more thought for the road: How come Mr. WD never demanded the accuracy from TWI that he does from some of the people here? Seems to me that might have helped him realize how full of it they really could be. Too bad.
I can't even believe I am answering you. No, it wasn't the Act of Marriage. It was by a woman with a silly little apron.
Eyes...aw HECK no, you didn`t offend me in the least, but thanks for asking..... I was just feeling a little hyper sensitive...that it was ammunition for those who have repeatedly blamed me through the years, claiming that I don`t take responsibility for my actions....yadda yadda...really, I wasn`t thinking of you at all when I wrote that :)
We are cool.
I find it funny too, that after all of theses years I feel so defensive of the t`s.
I try to understand you Rascal yet it is difficult to understand that you "take responsibility for your actions" (your wordsthere) and cry a victim in the same sentence all the while blaming others for your issues.
in other words how can you be victimized (feeling hurt and attacked) for what you continue to do so often to others?
I get that maybe the idea of letting the world know who you think is evil(twi) is a motivation for you.
i know there will be h@ll to pay for even appraoching a discussion with you , and that is one of the troubles at greasespot, as long as those who desire to be heard can scream as loud as they chose about who ever they want and the lesser thans know their place on the forums and only midly disagree or stay silent it is all good , but waver a little bit from the silent rules and pecking order set in place here and it always gets nasty and accusing and attacking.
Was that the book where one of the chapters was about the woman sitting on the washing machine to pleasure themselves during spin cycle??
Funny story....It was all the rage when we got out on the wow field....my wow sis` and I all read that book...and thinking the whole washing machine thing was just a riot.... one day....as a joke....somebody had showed me a nifty trick with a hand towel of folding and twisting until it unmistakably resembled an erect penis.
Well I used a BATH towel..hee hee ....and manufactured this enormous penis and wrapped it around a bottle and placed it on the washing machine as a joke for my wow sisters when they came home from, work.......pretty darned funny eh??
NOT!!!!
Our LC came by for a visit while we were at work...my wow bro and the bc`s were showing him around our new house....g....gulp...you guessed it :(
Word has it...he was NOT amused ...lol
I was mortified...being the shy thing I normally was.
quote: Notice the words *hit regularly*....as if once in a while is appropriate and understandible no doubt
The thing is....the definition of what constitutes *nagging* is questionable....heck, in my marriage...it seemed to escalate in direct relationship to how much the spouse had had to drink
Well, that explains it. I SHOULD have worded it like this; if you can say "women usually nag because..." then I can say "men usually drink because...". Better? :)
Was it 'Letters to Karen' and 'Letters to Phillip'?
It's quite possible you are correct, Johniam.
Sorry, though, I believe the coveted kewpie doll has already been awarded for some piece of trivia named in one of the games in "The Reading Room" forum.
Was it "The Total Woman," by Marabel Morgan? (A silly-a$$ed book if ever I read one).
It had a lot in it about sex-as-a-manipulative tool and so on; clean the house, cook his favorite meal, light the candles, put the kiddies to bed an hour before he gets home. Then greet him at the door in some cute little nothing costume, like fluffy pink shorty pj's and hip high boots.
First two things out of his mouth would be "Are you sick?" and "Where are the kids?"
So I wonder.... is this what men really want? Does any man out there want to be thought of as a walking imbecile that can be lead around by "the Little General"?????
Sure.. I can see a mutually agreed upon fun time occassionally, but if I were a man I'd be highly insulted by a book that teaches this kind of stuff as a lifestyle.
Men usually drink because??? Tell me John, I`d like to know. To me after watching generations of my spouses families destroyed by alcoholism...After watching alcoholics destroy my sisters families my grandmothers family...
Tell me what it is that would cause a person to do something that would be so detrimental to their family....that would destroy the people who love them the very most on this planet. Tell me why it is?
It is a depth of weakness, selfishness and down right cruelty that I just cannot fathom. I`ll never understand why a drinker puts his enjoyment ahead of the good of their loved ones.
The strange thing is....every alcoholic I have ever known has found a way to blame their drinking on something or someone else other than their own weakness.
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I suppose that it is a good thing for me to be able to say that I simply do not understand the logic of an abusive individual. I just don't get it. As Oak said, a person must be a seriously mentally deprived individual to think in this manner. The term "mental midget" comes to mind.
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Oakspear
Since there's some question as to what White Dove actually said, here are all of his posts on this thread since the argument started. I have not included quotes from people who he is responding to in all cases...too much work
Oh, PS: The timeline for the submissive stuff I was taught was 1993-96. It was a big whoopty-do at the time and even earlier, when LCM was blaming wives for taking their husbands out of the ministry.
ummm... could that be because this is the most prominent ex-way site? ...could that be because others are still bound by fear of reprisal should they speak up?
It's 'of no profit' to waste time with you and the other veepee worshipers!
Do you think everyone who comes here everyday that has something bad to say about TWI is lying? Just a wondering.
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Oakspear
Quick everyone! Let's jump on the time machine! We've gots-ta get video evidence to make some people happy! Oh! And DNA! Because we totally can't prove nuthin' without it. Thems are facts!
Because until then the victims are like robbers!
...
I've come to the conclusion that no one here needs to prove themselves to you. It's not like talking to you is going to help you reach some sort of enlightenment.
Half the time I wonder if you guys are just trolls rubbing your paws together and enjoying the way people jump like you know they will. Drama cows to be milked. I'm embarassed that I even replied... like I am replying now. Damn! XP
So anyways...
spouse abuse is bad... m'kay?
treating your wife or husband like garbage is bad too.
Where is that ignore button? Just in case...
WD, if you consider what we say just our opinion, why does it bother you so much that we speak? amongst the group that actually experienced this stuff, it's more than an opinion and you actually don't HAVE to comment when we share our experiences. why are you compelled to lecture whenever someone didn't take appropriate action in YOUR opinion?
Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
This is a topic that I'm thankful is being discussed. If I've gotten it correct, it's supposed to be about helping people deal with offences. I don't care if the offense is new or 20 years old, if someone is hurting they deserve to be helped through it.
White dove, your posts have been very counterproductive as far as anything good being accomplished. Quit forcing hurt people to defend the very fact that they're hurt. I don't know what kind of mindset would lead you to take a lawyer-like approach in an open setting like this where we can verify virtually nothing anybody is saying, but it is very off track with the stated purpose of this topic. PLEASE WHITE DOVE, EITHER HELP PEOPLE OR BE QUIET.
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johniam
You know. I actually agree with earlier posts saying that if a relationship deteriorates to the point that there is hitting regularly or even anger, lack of peace, whatever, then the relationship should probably end. I wouldn't be posting now if I was constantly looking for an excuse to hit, as some imply. I'd be in a cell somewhere. But women can adversely affect a relationship at LEAST as well as men, and I just see a lot of "not my problem" attitude.
By the way, the definition I used for 'nag' is from a dictionary. It was not gender specific and the only other definition in this dictionary is about a horse.
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Ham
what I find interesting.. I have the name and details of the guy who practically ran a "how to abuse your wife in der vey while looking religious in six easy lessons" apprenticeship program, and I get no reply from mr. "fair and balanced" here..
maybe I'm on ignore..
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Abigail
(edited to correct attribution)
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Sushi
Won't make any difference, Oak. Even with video evidence, there is the slim possibility (which some will take to high art) of being able to deny it. They can do all sorts of things with film these days, what with double exposure and all that. I hear they can do stuff with those things called computers, where you can't tell what's real and what's not (The Transformers movie notwithstanding).
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rascal
Notice the words *hit regularly*....as if once in a while is appropriate and understandible no doubt :(
The thing is....the definition of what constitutes *nagging* is questionable....heck, in my marriage...it seemed to escalate in direct relationship to how much the spouse had had to drink :(
One time I was knocked to the ground on Christmas eve for asking the spouse to go sit down with the kids who had been waiting for him all day while I prepared him something to eat.
Silly me, what a nag....I should have known better.
John, it is neveever ok. I teach my son`s that it is never ok...they are physically capable of restraining a woman without harming her, and are expected to do so ...even if she comes after them with a ball bat...you don`t think their sisters don`t ask for a good *clocking* every now and then??? Maybe that is the discipline that they aquired with years of martial arts training...maybe it is because they have been taught how to defuse a situation..maybe they aren`t so occupied with ego, that they can turn around and walk away.....maybe it is because they have learned how to be gentleman of character and morality. Whatever it is...if they were to ever hit a woman (or a man for that matter) in anything other than a life threatening situation...they would go to jail...they would be thrown out of karate school as well as have their membership to the federation yanked, and loose their belts.
That is what a person of good character and moral integrity, not to mention a christian gentleman does.
p.s. A note in defense of those who personally know us....The above incident related occurred many years ago, when way brain was still on full swing.....this is not the behavior of my spouse today, thank God.
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irisheyes
No loose change here, just my two cents, WS.
When I first got in the ministry (circa 1971) there was a book about how women could be good wives. For the life of me (i.e., "age-related"), I cannot remember the name of it. It was a silly little book about--are you ready for this?--how to build up a man's ego so you can get what you want from him. This book was extremely pushed at fellowship, classes (especially CFS), etc. If anyone remembers the name of it, please put it out there so anyone still interested can read it. I only brought it up to show how far back TWI's mind-set on all this went. And, I don't really care if WD believes me or not. 
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WhiteDove
CLICK
Was it The Act of Marriage by La Haye?
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irisheyes
One more thought for the road: How come Mr. WD never demanded the accuracy from TWI that he does from some of the people here? Seems to me that might have helped him realize how full of it they really could be. Too bad.
I can't even believe I am answering you. No, it wasn't the Act of Marriage. It was by a woman with a silly little apron.
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rascal
Eyes...aw HECK no, you didn`t offend me in the least, but thanks for asking..... I was just feeling a little hyper sensitive...that it was ammunition for those who have repeatedly blamed me through the years, claiming that I don`t take responsibility for my actions....yadda yadda...really, I wasn`t thinking of you at all when I wrote that :)
We are cool.
I find it funny too, that after all of theses years I feel so defensive of the t`s.
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pond
I try to understand you Rascal yet it is difficult to understand that you "take responsibility for your actions" (your wordsthere) and cry a victim in the same sentence all the while blaming others for your issues.
in other words how can you be victimized (feeling hurt and attacked) for what you continue to do so often to others?
I get that maybe the idea of letting the world know who you think is evil(twi) is a motivation for you.
i know there will be h@ll to pay for even appraoching a discussion with you , and that is one of the troubles at greasespot, as long as those who desire to be heard can scream as loud as they chose about who ever they want and the lesser thans know their place on the forums and only midly disagree or stay silent it is all good , but waver a little bit from the silent rules and pecking order set in place here and it always gets nasty and accusing and attacking.
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waysider
Yes, I remember that book, also.
There was another one that was supposed to be for young men.
We talked about them here about 6 or 7 months ago and the titles were named.
Darned if I can remember them, though.
There was something in the book you are referring to that instructed women to "purrr like a kitten".
I remember the young ladies in Cleveland had a real heyday poking fun at that part.
It was, after all, at the time that "women's lib" was making headline news.
Maybe somebody who is better than me at searching could find the titles.
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rascal
Was that the book where one of the chapters was about the woman sitting on the washing machine to pleasure themselves during spin cycle??
Funny story....It was all the rage when we got out on the wow field....my wow sis` and I all read that book...and thinking the whole washing machine thing was just a riot.... one day....as a joke....somebody had showed me a nifty trick with a hand towel of folding and twisting until it unmistakably resembled an erect penis.
Well I used a BATH towel..hee hee ....and manufactured this enormous penis and wrapped it around a bottle and placed it on the washing machine as a joke for my wow sisters when they came home from, work.......pretty darned funny eh??
NOT!!!!
Our LC came by for a visit while we were at work...my wow bro and the bc`s were showing him around our new house....g....gulp...you guessed it :(
Word has it...he was NOT amused ...lol
I was mortified...being the shy thing I normally was.
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johniam
Was it 'Letters to Karen' and 'Letters to Phillip'?
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rascal
Sorry for the momentary derail into a moment of nostalgia :)
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johniam
quote: Notice the words *hit regularly*....as if once in a while is appropriate and understandible no doubt
The thing is....the definition of what constitutes *nagging* is questionable....heck, in my marriage...it seemed to escalate in direct relationship to how much the spouse had had to drink
Well, that explains it. I SHOULD have worded it like this; if you can say "women usually nag because..." then I can say "men usually drink because...". Better? :)
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waysider
It's quite possible you are correct, Johniam.
Sorry, though, I believe the coveted kewpie doll has already been awarded for some piece of trivia named in one of the games in "The Reading Room" forum.
:)
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Watered Garden
Was it "The Total Woman," by Marabel Morgan? (A silly-a$$ed book if ever I read one).
It had a lot in it about sex-as-a-manipulative tool and so on; clean the house, cook his favorite meal, light the candles, put the kiddies to bed an hour before he gets home. Then greet him at the door in some cute little nothing costume, like fluffy pink shorty pj's and hip high boots.
First two things out of his mouth would be "Are you sick?" and "Where are the kids?"
WG
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doojable
Interesting... read the customer reviews on this book:
HERE :o
So I wonder.... is this what men really want? Does any man out there want to be thought of as a walking imbecile that can be lead around by "the Little General"?????
Sure.. I can see a mutually agreed upon fun time occassionally, but if I were a man I'd be highly insulted by a book that teaches this kind of stuff as a lifestyle.
IMHO- all manipulation is wrong.
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha that's ringing a bell ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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rascal
Men usually drink because??? Tell me John, I`d like to know. To me after watching generations of my spouses families destroyed by alcoholism...After watching alcoholics destroy my sisters families my grandmothers family...
Tell me what it is that would cause a person to do something that would be so detrimental to their family....that would destroy the people who love them the very most on this planet. Tell me why it is?
It is a depth of weakness, selfishness and down right cruelty that I just cannot fathom. I`ll never understand why a drinker puts his enjoyment ahead of the good of their loved ones.
The strange thing is....every alcoholic I have ever known has found a way to blame their drinking on something or someone else other than their own weakness.
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excathedra
thank you for the reply white dove
i don't think you can catch up to me ha ha ha ha ha ha
could you tell me in, like, one sentence, what you're mad about ?
thanks
i know it has something to do with stories that aren't true or.... like they can't be proved.....
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