WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
Abigail
I don't doubt that at all , in fact I read that same advise all the time in most woman's of the major magazines. I don't see clock your wife there though..... Go figure
This is a topic that I'm thankful is being discussed. If I've gotten it correct, it's supposed to be about helping people deal with offences. I don't care if the offense is new or 20 years old, if someone is hurting they deserve to be helped through it.
White dove, your posts have been very counterproductive as far as anything good being accomplished. Quit forcing hurt people to defend the very fact that they're hurt. I don't know what kind of mindset would lead you to take a lawyer-like approach in an open setting like this where we can verify virtually nothing anybody is saying, but it is very off track with the stated purpose of this topic. PLEASE WHITE DOVE, EITHER HELP PEOPLE OR BE QUIET.
This is a topic that I'm thankful is being discussed. If I've gotten it correct, it's supposed to be about helping people deal with offences. I don't care if the offense is new or 20 years old, if someone is hurting they deserve to be helped through it.
White dove, your posts have been very counterproductive as far as anything good being accomplished. Quit forcing hurt people to defend the very fact that they're hurt. I don't know what kind of mindset would lead you to take a lawyer-like approach in an open setting like this where we can verify virtually nothing anybody is saying, but it is very off track with the stated purpose of this topic. PLEASE WHITE DOVE, EITHER HELP PEOPLE OR BE QUIET.
Some of you from time to time resort to sarcasm to deal with these issues. I don't know why. I mean what's up with that?
I think that if you can't face these issues without resorting to sarcasm please just be quiet. Maybe without your foolishness something can get done here.
If you can't call anyone dishonest without having the facts to prove it just be quiet WHITE DOVE!
Your attempt to claim to help people stay honest is a sham. If you were honest you would just say, "you're lying, that did not happen." But since you can't say that, you have a pose of " Being honest is a good start to help."
Please WHITE DOVE, don't falsely accuse these folks of dishonesty. You are the one who needs help staying honest, and if you won't, just please be quiet.
You know eyes, this is really hard to think back on and retell in detail...because believe it or not...I adored those people...
J-hn was out of town. It was N- who did all of the personal counceling both weekends. There were things shared that I have never repeated to anybody else....things that led me to understand in no uncertain terms that it was not the *sex* that was the sin...but only if I allowed the little *problem* to prevent me from honoring my commitment to God....also that it was not necessarily an uncommon occurance...notable people were named that had found themselves in the same position.....that it was easily remedied.....
I have to say that she was compassionate and very very kind. I felt like she was a very good person trying to do a really tough job. You will never ever hear me say a word against those two....The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario.
As much as I would like to demonize them...to make them the villains who forced me to do the unthinkable.....to make it all their fault so that I can live with myself.......I can`t, I have to be honest and say that I hold no malice towards either of them....they were just holding me to the ministry standard that they themselves had been taught. When I had complied....I was welcomed back onto the wow field, all was forgiven...and I felt that I had been really fortunate for such kindness and the loving reprieve.
They treated me with gentle compassion, and never, never allowed me to condemn myself ....
What I am VERY angry about is that this was twi doctrine taught ......that this was what God required of us. The doctrine that the fetus was not alive...that it was a paracite untill it took it`s first breath....for the teachings where the leadership were to be obeyed right or wrong....(I later found out that the t-wnsends didn`t believe or enforce that...that came from earlier lc`s on the previous wow field and my home state)...that in signing up to go corpes, I was making an unbreakable, irrevocable vow to God .... the breaking of which would be tantamount to telling a lie...annanias and saphira were brought up.
The teachings about a woman losing her fruit being punishable differently than murder...so the fetus wasn`t alive...etc.
I am angry with the ministry that proclaimed this doctrine and standard as God`s rules and requirements. I am angry that I was in the position that according to the doctrine, I must chose between God and my child.
J-hn and N- were some of the kindest, gentlest, and treated me with the most tender compassion that I experienced in twi. I won`t hear a word against them for simply holding up the ministry standard to the best of their ability.
The following is a list of some of the common struggles people face, when leaving an abusive religious organization.
1. You develop a distorted image of God.
A God who is never satisfied who keeps setting higher and higher goals and is eager to let you find out how much you?ve missed the mark..
A God who is waiting for us to make a mistake?then point out all our failures, or to punish or humiliate.
An apathetic God who watches when people are hurt and abused, but does nothing to help?
And there is more ??.
2. You may be preoccupied with spiritual performance.
Preoccupation with spiritual performance often results in a tendency towards extremes of self-righteousness or shame. Self Righteousness (a sense of spiritual superiority based on your own behavior) and judgmentalism (a sense of spiritual superiority based on someone else?s behavior) indicate a performance based life-style.
3. You have a distorted self-identity of yourself as a Christian.
Confusion between guilt and shame. Guilt is a valuable signal indicating a wrong or bad behavior. Shame is an indictment on you as a person. You experience guilt when you do a wrong behavior; guilt is a good spiritual nerve ending causing you to right wrong behavior. You feel shame even when you?ve done nothing wrong;
4. You may have a problem relating to spiritual authority.
They tend to the extremes of compliance or defiance when faced with someone else having authority.
5. You may have a hard time with grace.
You find ways to push away the grace extended by God and the gifts from the other people, so that you end up going with out. Or you accept them with such overwhelming sense of owing that you find ways to "pay back" God and others for what they?ve done.
6. You may have a problem in the area of personal boundaries, an unclear understanding about "death to self" teachings and "rights".
People who have misused their spiritual power have disrespected or beaten down your boundaries. They have shamed you out of your "no", clouded your will and intruded into your life with religious agendas. They have violated your spirituality by playing "Holy Spirit." Having an opinion has come to equal lack of submissiveness. Having a right to not be abused is selfish
7. You may have difficulty with personal responsibility.
You may have learned to be under-responsible?..or learned to be over-responsible. You have a greater sense of God needing you than you needing God.
The most extreme form of over-responsibility happens when you martyr yourself. Being affected by insults and thoughtless actions is immature, and having feelings is being oversensitive. Going without is a prime virtue. Feeling numb to life is the end result.
8. You may suffer from a lack of living skills.
Abusive systems develop a "bunker mentality". This is characterized by being closed and paranoid toward the outside, and secretive about what goes on inside. The mentality is not only separatist, but highly judgmental.
9. You may have a hard time admitting the abuse.
a) You are told that you are "the problem" for noticing there is a problem. That makes it hard to expose the abuse, even after you?ve left the system.
b) Admitting the abuse out loud-or even thinking that what you experienced was abuse-often feels like you?re being disloyal to family, to church, even to God.
Those who have experienced spiritual abuse as "normal" have lost track of what normal really is.
c) It is so inconsistent with everything that is supposed to be happening in families and churches that the excruciating pain of it is short-circuited.
10. You may have a hard time with trust.
Mark Twain once mused, "A cat that sits on a hot stove lid wont sit on a hot stove lid again. But it probably won?t sit on a cold stove lid either." Those who have been spiritually abused will have a hard time trusting a spiritual system again. This is extremely significant, because the essence of living as a Christian is a trust relationship with God, within God?s family.
Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption?
You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught....
Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point.
It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written.
Not at all. But I do see it as progress in getting to the real truth.
Which was in case you have forgotten : what people actually said vs what people say the said or thought they heard
WG By NO MEANS did I intend to suggest that the legalism in marriage teachings only happened between 1993-96. In 1977 I heard Rev. N**cy D**can teach at a women's advance on a verse in Hebrews that Sara called Abraham "adonai" and that that is a name for God. Sara spoke to Abraham (her own personal god) and Abraham spoke to God for her. Anybody remember that besides me? I think it was also mentioned in the CF&S class.
Let's don't get on a tangent but I'm not sure that's correct. I'm not real good at using concordances but I found the verse in the Young's and it was a different word,.....I think.
The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.
She offered this instance to support her claim that and I quote" The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.'
I made this offer
So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer?
When faced with this offer then her reply was
The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
Origional statement = The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps
Final statement= Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
End result as a result of my offer to confirm this statement with the speaker the amended statement was"I said they said it but yes they really did not say it" but I understood that the implications were there. Not the same as saying it! As I have said all along. It is your opinion of what was said or meant which could be based on a variety of things including preconceived feelings on the issue. Which was the point all along, people are attributing quotes to people based on what they think they heard or think they said Not what they actually said.
Let me give you a simple example
WD says - This is a nice looking tomato.
Person Hears - This is a nice tomato to smash in your face.
Then says I heard him say he wanted to smash a tomato in my face
Not really what I said , just what they think they heard.
The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario.
I'll give you the same challange I extended to Tom Show me a post where I ever said this. Otherwise quit misrepresenting what I say. Which by the way is the discussion here How people think they hear things Guess this is a perfect case to prove the point.
You wont find those words because I did not say them I'll expect the retraction forthcomming.
Yes White Dove, let's make it all about you instead of helping.
No one can be helped until they realize what they are doing. One must first show them that they are adding to statements people have said and calling them their words they are not
Thats the first step to speaking honestly.......
Whats your solution you seem to only want to sideline critic mine? Let me guess just accept and believe everything anyone says as truth?
I'll give you the same challange I extended to Tom Show me a post where I ever said this. Otherwise quit misrepresenting what I say. Which by the way is the discussion here How people think they hear things Guess this is a perfect case to prove the point.
You wont find those words because I did not say them I'll expect the retraction forthcomming.
What a joke..are you freaking kiding me??
Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened???
Have you not demonstrated that you are woefully ignorant of what the women were taught and the standard that we were held to??
What YOU owe is an apology for calling people liars when it has been demonstrated that it is indeed you yourself who has been mistaken about what was taught in twi.
That would be the classy, (not to mention Christian) thing to do.
Same limb guy who ran the family and sex class, on more than one ocassion..
ended up in yet another woman's bed..
and divorced.
Come on Mr. Squirrel..."same limb guy" over and over...? What were his job qualifications anyway? And was this a class you had to apply for, to get the teaching assignment for the evening?
No one can be helped until they realize what they are doing. One must first show them that they are adding to statements people have said and calling them their words they are not
Thats the first step to speaking honestly.......
so, you're helping us? you want us to be honest because we're obviously mistaken in what we heard? and all you're doing is showing everyone how we've misinterpreted the teachings of the doctrines of twi as they came down from the top? you must be THE expert on intent then, since throwing cigarettes in a woman's face, telling parents to beat their child with a 2x4, and ignoring cases of physical abuse (even telling someone not to make a police report because the ministry would look bad) can't be taken as representative of twi's policy on domestic abuse?
so great a cloud of witnesses who were taught, advised, and sometimes directly abused by leaders... and I myself only testified on my own experiences, not what others had told me, of a FC in Ohio chasing a woman around their apartment with his fist raised, like being told by a FC in Oregon that an abused woman asked for it because she was so bitchy to her sweet husband (who incidentally was a heavy drinker) and the RC who told me not to make a police report after my ex went on a violent tirade and who told ugly lies about people who disagreed with him, the RC who verbally abused a man in front of dozens of people for not standing up for him when he walked into a group of people hanging out, then worked him into his teaching to further humiliate him... there really isn't a way to convince anyone who's seen these things that twi didn't have a culture that accepted and promoted abuse, and that the abuse started at the top and trickled down wherever corruption existed.
As much as I would like to demonize them...to make them the villains who forced me to do the unthinkable.....to make it all their fault so that I can live with myself.......I can`t, I have to be honest and say that I hold no malice towards either of them....they were just holding me to the ministry standard that they themselves had been taught. When I had complied....I was welcomed back onto the wow field, all was forgiven...and I felt that I had been really fortunate for such kindness and the loving reprieve.
I find it strange that I didn't want to "lose" the image that I had of them. I had always admired their "walk" as I saw it. They were loving and kind to me and my family. But they did uphold the "standard" of the Ministry. Remember how I once did not want to think that I had "wasted my time" in the Ministry? Well this time I didn't want to think that everyone that I had once admired was as crooked as a three dollar bill, spiritually speaking of course. It really shouldn't matter at all.
It is very pleasing for me to see you make another step in your personal healing by accepting your part in the painful ordeal. It was beyond twisted for twi to require these types of things from people. Of course you had a choice. But if you want this or have done that then you cannot do this other thing or you will be breaking a committment to God. None of us wanted to break a committment to Him. We were all taught the consequences for that little item. And ultimately we wanted God's love and His grace.
Going back to tarnishing ones "reputation"...I must admit that although I cannot offer any written evidence that I was taught some of the things that have been attested to in the last several pages of this thread...I can tell you that I was taught some very warped concepts concerning what it means to be a "Virtuous woman". I in turn taught those very same warped concepts. I also taught that an unborn baby was not a real human for many years even after my departure from twi. In fact I taught that most people that we run into in our daily lives are merely animals with only body and soul, flesh and breath and are unworthy of our notice, our care, our love or our respect.
These were all doctrines that I learned in twi, that I in turn taught to others. I may or may not have believed them when I taught them. I certainly do not believe them today. But I was taught them...where else may I have learned them? I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't have pulled them out of the hat by myself. But I cannot prove with video evidence, pictures or hard copy that they were taught to me (some of them anyway).
In a court of law there is such a thing as a preponderance of the evidence. It has nothing to do with the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. It has to do with a series or collection of documentable pieces of evidence that all point to the same or a common denominator. This is often the "proof" that I use to decide if something is true or not concerning the events or abuses attributed to twi.
Tell me WD, if none of this ever happened, if TWI and it's leaders were as blameless as you ALWAYS proclaim, if it was all the wonderland of your dreams... why aren't you still there?
Really Tom and you can document your claim here, show me a post where I said that.......
Or should I just believe you because you are hurting?
Happy Digging.................
Really WD... I post all of those questions to you (listed again below) and this is ALL you can come up with??? I have no need to 'dig' as it's the prevailing thought throughout nearly all of your posts... there's absolutely no need to 'dig', you prove it over and over again whenever you post concerning any abuse or bad teaching in TWI. The new folks see it clearly and quickly, the old folks grew weary of it long ago.
Are these things true WD? you're not a woman? you weren't in the corps? you didn't go WOW? you never lived anywhere but Kansas while in TWI?
If these things are true... how in the world do you think you are qualified to speak on what happened to other people who were corps, who were WOW, who did live in lots of different parts of the country while in TWI? How can you honestly (watch out, slanted letters!) sit back throwing all of the stones of denial at folks?
Are these things true WD? You weren't at that limb office? you weren't at the women's advances? you weren't at the private marriage counselling sessions?
If we were in a court of law, as you're so fond of saying (watch out, more slanted letters!), the judge would tell you to shut up and only speak to what YOU know! (more slanted letters!)
It's not really about a specific incident or particular teaching or a segment in some class.
(Though I could cite a particularly nasty one that literally changed lives. I won't name names or give details because I respect those who were affected.)
It's about a culture, a way of life, a way of thinking that we learned during our involvement.
We became a part of that culture by virtue of assimilation.
Living a mindset day in and day out is much more powerful as a "teacher" than any words merely spoken from some pulpit or presented in some formal class or even informally in a Twig setting.
We lived and breathed Way doctrine. It wasn't something apart from our everyday manner of thinking, it WAS our everyday thinking.
This is where the "programs" differed so very much from what went on at local levels.
I was in Fellow Laborers.
In FL, you didn't just go to a Twig or attend a class and then go home.
You WERE home!! It's how we lived, 24/7.
It's like that old saying, "What you see is what you get."
There was no "on stage/off stage".
You were "in character", so to speak, every waking moment.
Do I need video proof or a transcript to verify to myself that I lived a certain lifestyle for multiple years?
It's not really about a specific incident or particular teaching or a segment in some class.
(Though I could cite a particularly nasty one that literally changed lives. I won't name names or give details because I respect those who were affected.)
It's about a culture, a way of life, a way of thinking that we learned during our involvement.
We became a part of that culture by virtue of assimilation.
Living a mindset day in and day out is much more powerful as a "teacher" than any words merely spoken from some pulpit or presented in some formal class or even informally in a Twig setting.
We lived and breathed Way doctrine. It wasn't something apart from our everyday manner of thinking, it WAS our everyday thinking.
This is where the "programs" differed so very much from what went on at local levels.
I was in Fellow Laborers.
In FL, you didn't just go to a Twig or attend a class and then go home.
You WERE home!! It's how we lived, 24/7.
It's like that old saying, "What you see is what you get."
There was no "on stage/off stage".
You were "in character", so to speak, every waking moment.
Do I need video proof or a transcript to verify to myself that I lived a certain lifestyle for multiple years?
Nope. Someone else might but I certainly don't.
edited for spelling.
Misery Love Company! People, don't you get TIRED?
...If 'you' don't believe 'MY' miserable TWI Life, Experiences, Stories, and Personal Sacrifice!!!...And IF, YOU don't believe HOW Miserable I Feel Today, having stupidly WASTED my TIME, Life, $$$ and YOUTH, and IF You doubt ANY of my (un)documented terrible Cult life experiences...blame ANYBODY, but NOT ME, I was just SERVIN' The Lord...OR my wife beating husband! I'm NOT Responsible for what happened? Right!
So, Just...Please Go Away and don't disagree with me! (because my self-pity will never end!)
Reminds me of a formal dinner party I went to years ago with some idiot corps. guy I STUPIDLY invited! BIG MISTAKE!! One guy who just couldn't shut up about about TWI and da Class!
Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened???
Have you not demonstrated that you are woefully ignorant of what the women were taught and the standard that we were held to??
What YOU owe is an apology for calling people liars when it has been demonstrated that it is indeed you yourself who has been mistaken about what was taught in twi.
That would be the classy, (not to mention Christian) thing to do.
So I'm guessing you can't find the quote where I said that or else you would have posted it rather than dodge the issue. Well let me help you out
HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID WORD FOR WORD YOUR WORDS NOT MINE..........
Rascal Ouote - The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario.
I never (as demenstrated by your lack of a quote from me saying anything remotly like that) said that. I never implied that I thought that anywhere in my posts. As a matter of fact anticipating that you would add to my words my intentions, like you do everyone elses I anicipated that move and posted the following just to make clear what I thought.
Post#281 Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all, but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance,
This was in responce to your post:
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
I specifically said that I had been to all types of advances.......... But not every advance. Not having been at every advance was a purposeful admission that I was not aware of everything ever taught anywhere. That should have been commen sense but just to make sure having knowledge of your previous actions of past I posted it.
Clearly I never said anything like that and you know it but it didn't matter to you you just wanted to say I did anyway so off it goes. Further not only did you make it up (that's make s**t up as I have discussed in the past) but you ignored that fact that I confirmed that was not my thinking in post 281. prior to yours.
To recap
1. You put words in my mouth that I never said.
2. You ignored words that I posted telling you that was not my thinking
3. You can't deny it ,Because there are no posts to prove it.
4. You then still try to justify your actions by changing the subject
You have proved my point exactly For whatever reason you think it is ok to add your personal interpretation to other's words and call it theirs. You just did it with mine here and you do with topics on the Way and former people involved therin here consistently.
The point was not as you put it:
Quote Rascal
Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened???
The point was that you misrepresent what people say by adding words or intentions not supplied by them to their words . Here is a classic example today, and yet you wonder why people accuse you of not speaking the truth and wonder why I don't trust what you say. You just did it here and you consistently do it to others because of your emotional anger ,I suppose you feel it is just ok to say what you want because you are angry. It Is Not and I will challenge it .
Really WD... I post all of those questions to you (listed again below) and this is ALL you can come up with??? I have no need to 'dig' as it's the prevailing thought throughout nearly all of your posts... there's absolutely no need to 'dig', you prove it over and over again whenever you post concerning any abuse or bad teaching in TWI. The new folks see it clearly and quickly, the old folks grew weary of it long ago.
Right so there was no post to that effect another words...........Like I said
Hi WaySider, It really wasn't you I was addressing.
I understand what you're saying...and I think everybody understands by now. And everybody has their old scars.
My question is, why waste time debating over and over, your pain with people you will NEVER meet and who you KNOW are NEVER going to understand how you feel, ON THE INTERNET? My personal scars in life I carry with a sense of pride, I don't need to display them. It's part of what I am.
My mistakes are my own. Either I learn from them or I just join the next 'need to belong' cult corporation out of emotional stupidity! Listening to more of the same pass the plate Bible speak pick me up service, of how God saved another poor middle aged bible presenter from the temptation of decking some a$$hole who stole his car/wife/$$, etc.
Pick a verse...prove a point. Tell me something I haven't heard.
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doojable
I read threads like this and others in this section and think about that line,
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."
It's sad.... really, really sad.
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WhiteDove
WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field?
I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc.
Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower.
Abigail
I don't doubt that at all , in fact I read that same advise all the time in most woman's of the major magazines. I don't see clock your wife there though..... Go figure
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JeffSjo
This is a topic that I'm thankful is being discussed. If I've gotten it correct, it's supposed to be about helping people deal with offences. I don't care if the offense is new or 20 years old, if someone is hurting they deserve to be helped through it.
White dove, your posts have been very counterproductive as far as anything good being accomplished. Quit forcing hurt people to defend the very fact that they're hurt. I don't know what kind of mindset would lead you to take a lawyer-like approach in an open setting like this where we can verify virtually nothing anybody is saying, but it is very off track with the stated purpose of this topic. PLEASE WHITE DOVE, EITHER HELP PEOPLE OR BE QUIET.
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WhiteDove
Being honest is a good start to help..........
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JeffSjo
Some of you from time to time resort to sarcasm to deal with these issues. I don't know why. I mean what's up with that?
I think that if you can't face these issues without resorting to sarcasm please just be quiet. Maybe without your foolishness something can get done here.
If you can't call anyone dishonest without having the facts to prove it just be quiet WHITE DOVE!
Your attempt to claim to help people stay honest is a sham. If you were honest you would just say, "you're lying, that did not happen." But since you can't say that, you have a pose of " Being honest is a good start to help."
Please WHITE DOVE, don't falsely accuse these folks of dishonesty. You are the one who needs help staying honest, and if you won't, just please be quiet.
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rascal
You know eyes, this is really hard to think back on and retell in detail...because believe it or not...I adored those people...
J-hn was out of town. It was N- who did all of the personal counceling both weekends. There were things shared that I have never repeated to anybody else....things that led me to understand in no uncertain terms that it was not the *sex* that was the sin...but only if I allowed the little *problem* to prevent me from honoring my commitment to God....also that it was not necessarily an uncommon occurance...notable people were named that had found themselves in the same position.....that it was easily remedied.....
I have to say that she was compassionate and very very kind. I felt like she was a very good person trying to do a really tough job. You will never ever hear me say a word against those two....The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario.
As much as I would like to demonize them...to make them the villains who forced me to do the unthinkable.....to make it all their fault so that I can live with myself.......I can`t, I have to be honest and say that I hold no malice towards either of them....they were just holding me to the ministry standard that they themselves had been taught. When I had complied....I was welcomed back onto the wow field, all was forgiven...and I felt that I had been really fortunate for such kindness and the loving reprieve.
They treated me with gentle compassion, and never, never allowed me to condemn myself ....
What I am VERY angry about is that this was twi doctrine taught ......that this was what God required of us. The doctrine that the fetus was not alive...that it was a paracite untill it took it`s first breath....for the teachings where the leadership were to be obeyed right or wrong....(I later found out that the t-wnsends didn`t believe or enforce that...that came from earlier lc`s on the previous wow field and my home state)...that in signing up to go corpes, I was making an unbreakable, irrevocable vow to God .... the breaking of which would be tantamount to telling a lie...annanias and saphira were brought up.
The teachings about a woman losing her fruit being punishable differently than murder...so the fetus wasn`t alive...etc.
I am angry with the ministry that proclaimed this doctrine and standard as God`s rules and requirements. I am angry that I was in the position that according to the doctrine, I must chose between God and my child.
J-hn and N- were some of the kindest, gentlest, and treated me with the most tender compassion that I experienced in twi. I won`t hear a word against them for simply holding up the ministry standard to the best of their ability.
It was a privilege to be a wow in their state.
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cman
I think we should recognize these again.
From the book-
The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse
(thanks Abi, from a post along time ago)
-------------
The following is a list of some of the common struggles people face, when leaving an abusive religious organization.
1. You develop a distorted image of God.
A God who is never satisfied who keeps setting higher and higher goals and is eager to let you find out how much you?ve missed the mark..
A God who is waiting for us to make a mistake?then point out all our failures, or to punish or humiliate.
An apathetic God who watches when people are hurt and abused, but does nothing to help?
And there is more ??.
2. You may be preoccupied with spiritual performance.
Preoccupation with spiritual performance often results in a tendency towards extremes of self-righteousness or shame. Self Righteousness (a sense of spiritual superiority based on your own behavior) and judgmentalism (a sense of spiritual superiority based on someone else?s behavior) indicate a performance based life-style.
3. You have a distorted self-identity of yourself as a Christian.
Confusion between guilt and shame. Guilt is a valuable signal indicating a wrong or bad behavior. Shame is an indictment on you as a person. You experience guilt when you do a wrong behavior; guilt is a good spiritual nerve ending causing you to right wrong behavior. You feel shame even when you?ve done nothing wrong;
4. You may have a problem relating to spiritual authority.
They tend to the extremes of compliance or defiance when faced with someone else having authority.
5. You may have a hard time with grace.
You find ways to push away the grace extended by God and the gifts from the other people, so that you end up going with out. Or you accept them with such overwhelming sense of owing that you find ways to "pay back" God and others for what they?ve done.
6. You may have a problem in the area of personal boundaries, an unclear understanding about "death to self" teachings and "rights".
People who have misused their spiritual power have disrespected or beaten down your boundaries. They have shamed you out of your "no", clouded your will and intruded into your life with religious agendas. They have violated your spirituality by playing "Holy Spirit." Having an opinion has come to equal lack of submissiveness. Having a right to not be abused is selfish
7. You may have difficulty with personal responsibility.
You may have learned to be under-responsible?..or learned to be over-responsible. You have a greater sense of God needing you than you needing God.
The most extreme form of over-responsibility happens when you martyr yourself. Being affected by insults and thoughtless actions is immature, and having feelings is being oversensitive. Going without is a prime virtue. Feeling numb to life is the end result.
8. You may suffer from a lack of living skills.
Abusive systems develop a "bunker mentality". This is characterized by being closed and paranoid toward the outside, and secretive about what goes on inside. The mentality is not only separatist, but highly judgmental.
9. You may have a hard time admitting the abuse.
a) You are told that you are "the problem" for noticing there is a problem. That makes it hard to expose the abuse, even after you?ve left the system.
b) Admitting the abuse out loud-or even thinking that what you experienced was abuse-often feels like you?re being disloyal to family, to church, even to God.
Those who have experienced spiritual abuse as "normal" have lost track of what normal really is.
c) It is so inconsistent with everything that is supposed to be happening in families and churches that the excruciating pain of it is short-circuited.
10. You may have a hard time with trust.
Mark Twain once mused, "A cat that sits on a hot stove lid wont sit on a hot stove lid again. But it probably won?t sit on a cold stove lid either." Those who have been spiritually abused will have a hard time trusting a spiritual system again. This is extremely significant, because the essence of living as a Christian is a trust relationship with God, within God?s family.
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WhiteDove
Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption?
You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught....
Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point.
It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written.
Not at all. But I do see it as progress in getting to the real truth.
Which was in case you have forgotten : what people actually said vs what people say the said or thought they heard
She offered this instance to support her claim that and I quote" The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.'
I made this offer
So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer?
When faced with this offer then her reply was
The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
Origional statement = The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps
Final statement= Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there.
End result as a result of my offer to confirm this statement with the speaker the amended statement was"I said they said it but yes they really did not say it" but I understood that the implications were there. Not the same as saying it! As I have said all along. It is your opinion of what was said or meant which could be based on a variety of things including preconceived feelings on the issue. Which was the point all along, people are attributing quotes to people based on what they think they heard or think they said Not what they actually said.
Let me give you a simple example
WD says - This is a nice looking tomato.
Person Hears - This is a nice tomato to smash in your face.
Then says I heard him say he wanted to smash a tomato in my face
Not really what I said , just what they think they heard.
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WhiteDove
I'll give you the same challange I extended to Tom Show me a post where I ever said this. Otherwise quit misrepresenting what I say. Which by the way is the discussion here How people think they hear things Guess this is a perfect case to prove the point.
You wont find those words because I did not say them I'll expect the retraction forthcomming.
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JeffSjo
Yes White Dove, let's make it all about you instead of helping.
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WhiteDove
Yes White Dove, let's make it all about you instead of helping.
No one can be helped until they realize what they are doing. One must first show them that they are adding to statements people have said and calling them their words they are not
Thats the first step to speaking honestly.......
Whats your solution you seem to only want to sideline critic mine? Let me guess just accept and believe everything anyone says as truth?
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cman
Words are used to form ideas.
They can be used in a deceitful way, so as to disguise it's meaning.
When put on the table word for word.
It's the ideas that are being named and the actions that were promoted.
And still are.
We were taught to learn word for word, the bible.
This is how other things were promoted.
The ideas promoted were wrong in twi/vpw/pfal/leadership,
and people who have been so conditioned to accept the face value of words instead of the truth.
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cman
And speaking of lawyers....
The Judicial branch of our government is assigned with interpreting the laws to get the meaning intended by the law.
It's a poor lawyer that ignores a laws intent, either prosecution or defense of an offense.
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rascal
What a joke..are you freaking kiding me??
Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened???
Have you not demonstrated that you are woefully ignorant of what the women were taught and the standard that we were held to??
What YOU owe is an apology for calling people liars when it has been demonstrated that it is indeed you yourself who has been mistaken about what was taught in twi.
That would be the classy, (not to mention Christian) thing to do.
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Bumpy
Come on Mr. Squirrel..."same limb guy" over and over...? What were his job qualifications anyway? And was this a class you had to apply for, to get the teaching assignment for the evening?
First Hand...eh?
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potato
so, you're helping us? you want us to be honest because we're obviously mistaken in what we heard? and all you're doing is showing everyone how we've misinterpreted the teachings of the doctrines of twi as they came down from the top? you must be THE expert on intent then, since throwing cigarettes in a woman's face, telling parents to beat their child with a 2x4, and ignoring cases of physical abuse (even telling someone not to make a police report because the ministry would look bad) can't be taken as representative of twi's policy on domestic abuse?
so great a cloud of witnesses who were taught, advised, and sometimes directly abused by leaders... and I myself only testified on my own experiences, not what others had told me, of a FC in Ohio chasing a woman around their apartment with his fist raised, like being told by a FC in Oregon that an abused woman asked for it because she was so bitchy to her sweet husband (who incidentally was a heavy drinker) and the RC who told me not to make a police report after my ex went on a violent tirade and who told ugly lies about people who disagreed with him, the RC who verbally abused a man in front of dozens of people for not standing up for him when he walked into a group of people hanging out, then worked him into his teaching to further humiliate him... there really isn't a way to convince anyone who's seen these things that twi didn't have a culture that accepted and promoted abuse, and that the abuse started at the top and trickled down wherever corruption existed.
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Danny
At the top Vp himself I could give many times of abuse.
How about pfal 77 a camera person not knowing his (vp's)
next move so to make himself look smart yells his fool head off
about the poor camera person not having esp.
yes it came from the top he taught how to abuse
black dove how many witness will that be thousands
many here will remeber him doing that
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Eyesopen
I find it strange that I didn't want to "lose" the image that I had of them. I had always admired their "walk" as I saw it. They were loving and kind to me and my family. But they did uphold the "standard" of the Ministry. Remember how I once did not want to think that I had "wasted my time" in the Ministry? Well this time I didn't want to think that everyone that I had once admired was as crooked as a three dollar bill, spiritually speaking of course. It really shouldn't matter at all.
It is very pleasing for me to see you make another step in your personal healing by accepting your part in the painful ordeal. It was beyond twisted for twi to require these types of things from people. Of course you had a choice. But if you want this or have done that then you cannot do this other thing or you will be breaking a committment to God. None of us wanted to break a committment to Him. We were all taught the consequences for that little item. And ultimately we wanted God's love and His grace.
Going back to tarnishing ones "reputation"...I must admit that although I cannot offer any written evidence that I was taught some of the things that have been attested to in the last several pages of this thread...I can tell you that I was taught some very warped concepts concerning what it means to be a "Virtuous woman". I in turn taught those very same warped concepts. I also taught that an unborn baby was not a real human for many years even after my departure from twi. In fact I taught that most people that we run into in our daily lives are merely animals with only body and soul, flesh and breath and are unworthy of our notice, our care, our love or our respect.
These were all doctrines that I learned in twi, that I in turn taught to others. I may or may not have believed them when I taught them. I certainly do not believe them today. But I was taught them...where else may I have learned them? I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't have pulled them out of the hat by myself. But I cannot prove with video evidence, pictures or hard copy that they were taught to me (some of them anyway).
In a court of law there is such a thing as a preponderance of the evidence. It has nothing to do with the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. It has to do with a series or collection of documentable pieces of evidence that all point to the same or a common denominator. This is often the "proof" that I use to decide if something is true or not concerning the events or abuses attributed to twi.
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Tom Strange
Really WD... I post all of those questions to you (listed again below) and this is ALL you can come up with??? I have no need to 'dig' as it's the prevailing thought throughout nearly all of your posts... there's absolutely no need to 'dig', you prove it over and over again whenever you post concerning any abuse or bad teaching in TWI. The new folks see it clearly and quickly, the old folks grew weary of it long ago.
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waysider
waysider,here, tossing in my loose change.
It's not really about a specific incident or particular teaching or a segment in some class.
(Though I could cite a particularly nasty one that literally changed lives. I won't name names or give details because I respect those who were affected.)
It's about a culture, a way of life, a way of thinking that we learned during our involvement.
We became a part of that culture by virtue of assimilation.
Living a mindset day in and day out is much more powerful as a "teacher" than any words merely spoken from some pulpit or presented in some formal class or even informally in a Twig setting.
We lived and breathed Way doctrine. It wasn't something apart from our everyday manner of thinking, it WAS our everyday thinking.
This is where the "programs" differed so very much from what went on at local levels.
I was in Fellow Laborers.
In FL, you didn't just go to a Twig or attend a class and then go home.
You WERE home!! It's how we lived, 24/7.
It's like that old saying, "What you see is what you get."
There was no "on stage/off stage".
You were "in character", so to speak, every waking moment.
Do I need video proof or a transcript to verify to myself that I lived a certain lifestyle for multiple years?
Nope. Someone else might but I certainly don't.
edited for spelling.
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Bumpy
Misery Love Company! People, don't you get TIRED?
...If 'you' don't believe 'MY' miserable TWI Life, Experiences, Stories, and Personal Sacrifice!!!...And IF, YOU don't believe HOW Miserable I Feel Today, having stupidly WASTED my TIME, Life, $$$ and YOUTH, and IF You doubt ANY of my (un)documented terrible Cult life experiences...blame ANYBODY, but NOT ME, I was just SERVIN' The Lord...OR my wife beating husband! I'm NOT Responsible for what happened? Right!
So, Just...Please Go Away and don't disagree with me! (because my self-pity will never end!)
Reminds me of a formal dinner party I went to years ago with some idiot corps. guy I STUPIDLY invited! BIG MISTAKE!! One guy who just couldn't shut up about about TWI and da Class!
Ruined the Party!
PS, it's just my loose change too!
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WhiteDove
HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID WORD FOR WORD YOUR WORDS NOT MINE..........
Rascal Ouote - The only reason that I finally broke my silence on who taught me this stuff, was dove thinking that he knew and was privy to everything everyone taught in every situation and scenario.
I never (as demenstrated by your lack of a quote from me saying anything remotly like that) said that. I never implied that I thought that anywhere in my posts. As a matter of fact anticipating that you would add to my words my intentions, like you do everyone elses I anicipated that move and posted the following just to make clear what I thought.
Post#281 Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all, but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance,
This was in responce to your post:
Dove,
Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly.
I specifically said that I had been to all types of advances.......... But not every advance. Not having been at every advance was a purposeful admission that I was not aware of everything ever taught anywhere. That should have been commen sense but just to make sure having knowledge of your previous actions of past I posted it.
Clearly I never said anything like that and you know it but it didn't matter to you you just wanted to say I did anyway so off it goes. Further not only did you make it up (that's make s**t up as I have discussed in the past) but you ignored that fact that I confirmed that was not my thinking in post 281. prior to yours.
To recap
1. You put words in my mouth that I never said.
2. You ignored words that I posted telling you that was not my thinking
3. You can't deny it ,Because there are no posts to prove it.
4. You then still try to justify your actions by changing the subject
You have proved my point exactly For whatever reason you think it is ok to add your personal interpretation to other's words and call it theirs. You just did it with mine here and you do with topics on the Way and former people involved therin here consistently.
The point was not as you put it:
Quote Rascal
Has not the WHOLE point of this discussion been YOU claiming that because you weren`t there and didn`t hear what was taught ...there for the rest of us are liars...and our experiences never happened???
The point was that you misrepresent what people say by adding words or intentions not supplied by them to their words . Here is a classic example today, and yet you wonder why people accuse you of not speaking the truth and wonder why I don't trust what you say. You just did it here and you consistently do it to others because of your emotional anger ,I suppose you feel it is just ok to say what you want because you are angry. It Is Not and I will challenge it .
Right so there was no post to that effect another words...........Like I said
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waysider
Hello there, Bumpy
I think you might have misunderstood the point I was trying to make.
Then again, maybe I didn't do such a good job of explaining it. I dunno.
I'm not miserable or bitter or seeking sympathy.
He!!, that stuff all happened many years ago.
But it's like somebody telling you weren't in a bad car wreck because you don't have video to prove it.
Meanwhile, you look down at a fading but very real scar that represents a huge gash you sustained in the accident.
The gash is gone, the scar has faded and the memories have taken on an almost surrealistic quality.
Then along comes someone who insists it never really happened.
It doesn't hurt me.
It just makes me wonder how they could be so certain when I'm the one who was there and not them.
Nope. You didn't really hit that oak tree head-on, you just think you did. <_<
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Bumpy
Hi WaySider, It really wasn't you I was addressing.
I understand what you're saying...and I think everybody understands by now. And everybody has their old scars.
My question is, why waste time debating over and over, your pain with people you will NEVER meet and who you KNOW are NEVER going to understand how you feel, ON THE INTERNET? My personal scars in life I carry with a sense of pride, I don't need to display them. It's part of what I am.
My mistakes are my own. Either I learn from them or I just join the next 'need to belong' cult corporation out of emotional stupidity! Listening to more of the same pass the plate Bible speak pick me up service, of how God saved another poor middle aged bible presenter from the temptation of decking some a$$hole who stole his car/wife/$$, etc.
Pick a verse...prove a point. Tell me something I haven't heard.
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