The best rule I can think of to govern who to tell it to is "love and care for God's people." I already know that it's easy to say and hard to do, but a guy's gotta have standards.
I think the worst thing that I can think of would be to end up like one of Job's miserable comforters. All full of knowledge, but only able to end up accusing the one who's been hurt.
WD wants documentation... that's so funny! I requested documentation of one of my brainwashing sessions and the people involved denied any knowledge of it. there is no documentation! what struck me as most interesting is that telling a woman her head was full of holes and that she's dangerous was unmemorable for them... meaning:
1. they remember and can't admit they do for legal reasons.
or
2. they don't remember because such events were commonplace.
anyway, matthew 18:15-17 didn't require documents or photographs or police records. WD, we're at the "telling the whole church" step of this process. the one-on-one part, the two or more witnesses... sorry dude, long past. we have a scriptural right to do what we're doing.
The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI ...
WG
I've heard it taught, many times, that the wife should submit to the husband, be in subjection because the husband is the head of the wife. Various scriptures were used, among them were the following:
Eph 5:22 ¶ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let]the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
I was out of the room when they taught a doctrine that if the wife didn't obey the husband, then the husband is entitled to administer a physical beating to his wife.
For myself, it is logical to assume that if the physical beating by the husband to his disobedient wife were a doctrine encouraged by twi, then twi also would have shared some scripture backup, as this was their usual custom. Accordingly does anyone who attended these women's meetings remember a bible verse or two that twi used to condone the husband's physical beating of his disobedient wife? Did they share any verses that would suggest it were ok?
One evening last week, my girlfriend and I were getting into bed.
Well, the passion starts to heat up, and she eventually says, "I don't feel like
it, I just want you to hold me."
I said, "WHAT??!! What was that?!"
So she says the words that every boyfriend on the planet dreads to hear...
"You're just not in touch with my emotional needs as a woman enough for me to satisfy your physical needs as a man."
She responded to my puzzled look by saying, "Can't you just love me for who I am and not what I do for you in the bedroom?"
Realizing that nothing was going to happen that night, I went to sleep.
The very next day I opted to take the day off of work to spend time with her. We went out to a nice lunch and then went shopping at a big, big unnamed department store. I walked around with her while she tried on several different very expensive outfits. She couldn't decide which one to take, so I told her we'd just buy them all. She wanted new shoes to compliment her new clothes, so I said, "Lets get a pair for each outfit."
We went on to the jewelry department where she picked out a pair of diamond earrings. Let me tell you... she was so excited. She must have thought I was one wave short of a shipwreck. I started to think she was testing me because she asked for a tennis bracelet when she doesn't even know how to play tennis.
I think I threw her for a loop when I said, "That's fine, honey." She was almost nearing sexual satisfaction from all of the excitement. Smiling with excited anticipation, she finally said, "I think this is all dear, let's go to the cashier."
I could hardly contain myself when I blurted out, "No honey, I don't feel like it."
Her face just went completely blank as her jaw dropped with a baffled, "WHAT?"
I then said, "Honey! I just want you to HOLD this stuff for a while. You're just not in touch with my financial needs as a man enough for me to satisfy your shopping needs as a woman."
And just when she had this look like she was going to kill me, I added, "Why can't you just love me for who I am and not for the things I buy you?"
Apparently I'm not having sex tonight either....but at least that woman knows I'm smarter than her.
related?? I guess I can see that. it's another story of retaliation, rather than talking things out. after all, the most important thing is to prove what a man you are by putting her in her place without having to spend any time talking things out as friends!
Thank you God - if there is a God. Greater life force? Whoo! That I married the man I did!
Because him - even in all of his umedicated bi-polar glory - he was never as bad as some of the guys on here. Damn.
He's medicated now. And after reading some of the posts here - I've come to the conclusion that he's a freaking saint. God I love him and I am sooooo freaking blessed to have him.
That you... thank you greater life force...
For giving me the brain not to marry some of "these" instead.
And - just so I know - what would be your solution to there being no "documentation" for people's personal experiences? Should the forum shrivel up and die because everything we've experienced needs to be submitted in triplicate?
Anyone that routinely deals with multiple stories of how events unfolded knows that one does not take the word of the participants at face value. Of course the robbers will tell you they did nothing wrong the others will chime in and agree. So does the policeman just shrug and say oh gee they are hurting I better just believe them. Hardly.... It's commen sense to know that until an accusation is provable it is not truth. Recently Mr. Vick was an alleged dog abuser some said he was, some said he was not. I'm sure his family said he was a good boy do we just believe them because they are hurting? Nope He got his day in court and the allegations were proved at that point they were no longer alleged but factual accusations. that’s how the process works if you want to make allegations about someone you best be prepared to prove your assault I've previously explained what a fact is refer to prior post. Until that time it is an opinion an should be referred to as such not a given truth until documented.
Quick everyone! Let's jump on the time machine! We've gots-ta get video evidence to make some people happy! Oh! And DNA! Because we totally can't prove nuthin' without it. Thems are facts!
Because until then the victims are like robbers!
...
I've come to the conclusion that no one here needs to prove themselves to you. It's not like talking to you is going to help you reach some sort of enlightenment.
Half the time I wonder if you guys are just trolls rubbing your paws together and enjoying the way people jump like you know they will. Drama cows to be milked. I'm embarassed that I even replied... like I am replying now. Damn! XP
So anyways...
spouse abuse is bad... m'kay?
treating your wife or husband like garbage is bad too.
You know, I post stuff here to try to help people as well as myself explain and understand the TWI experience we all share to one degree or another. To suggest I "have an ax to grind" is even more insulting than taking a comment I made out of context and using it to shore up a comment I certainly as NOT in agreement with.
I was associated with TWI from 1974-1996. During that time, I saw small-minded, legalistic busybodies try to run my world and I saw kind-hearted, God-loving people set an example of a Christian walk, and everything in between.
By NO MEANS did I intend to suggest that the legalism in marriage teachings only happened between 1993-96. In 1977 I heard Rev. N**cy D**can teach at a women's advance on a verse in Hebrews that Sara called Abraham "adonai" and that that is a name for God. Sara spoke to Abraham (her own personal god) and Abraham spoke to God for her. Anybody remember that besides me? I think it was also mentioned in the CF&S class.
Let's don't get on a tangent but I'm not sure that's correct. I'm not real good at using concordances but I found the verse in the Young's and it was a different word,.....I think.
The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.
WG
So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer?
Hey speaking of CFS I'm looking at a transcript from the class Gee What do I see Perhaps Way Doctrine Documentable even
Lets see Genesis 2:18 Helpmeet Means companion, one who brings out the best in a man (Not a slave,or dog,ect) He doesn't take advantage of her,doesn't raise hell with her.
Ephesians 5:22 Submit=subject see vs 24 Christ does not lord it over the church. If your man yells, jump? BALONEY (note the all Caps on that one)
Well there is plenty more but not going to waste the time You get the point here is documentable doctrine of the Way, is it any wonder people scrach their heads when some contrary thing appears an of course just must be believed on faith? There couldn't be any other reason why someone would just say such a thing.
quote: after all, the most important thing is to prove what a man you are by putting her in her place without having to spend any time talking things out as friends!
Awww, sweet potato.
This was an email I got. My wife is the one who pointed it out to me. She thinks it's funny. I just thought this thread needed a hug.
Quick everyone! Let's jump on the time machine! We've gots-ta get video evidence to make some people happy! Oh! And DNA! Because we totally can't prove nuthin' without it. Thems are facts!
Because until then the victims are like robbers!
...
I've come to the conclusion that no one here needs to prove themselves to you. It's not like talking to you is going to help you reach some sort of enlightenment.
Half the time I wonder if you guys are just trolls rubbing your paws together and enjoying the way people jump like you know they will. Drama cows to be milked. I'm embarassed that I even replied... like I am replying now. Damn! XP
So anyways...
spouse abuse is bad... m'kay?
treating your wife or husband like garbage is bad too.
Where is that ignore button? Just in case...
You apparently don't understand how life works, too bad for you , there are accepted rules to proving your case, of course those that have no case don't like the rules. again too bad for you. your free to voice any opinion you want but opinion is not fact. Gee I bet Drew Peterson is hurting I guess we just accept his version of what happened to his wives as fact because he said so. Hey no proof needed he said it good enough for me. Lets just hold hands and be loving. Yeah it works like that..........
WD, if you consider what we say just our opinion, why does it bother you so much that we speak? amongst the group that actually experienced this stuff, it's more than an opinion and you actually don't HAVE to comment when we share our experiences. why are you compelled to lecture whenever someone didn't take appropriate action in YOUR opinion?
Did they share any verses that would suggest it were ok?
of course they did, but since the bible doesn't explicitly say you can beat your wife they had to use their usual convoluted scripture build-up with stories from the OT. lots of smoke-screening, because doctrinally it's wrong... so, here goes... if a man beats his wife then he's not pleased to dwell with her, so she's off the hook if he leaves but ONLY IF HE LEAVES. she can't leave. another story pulled into the fray was the one of Nabal and Abigail... oh what a wonderful woman Abigail was because she was faithful to her man in spite of his cruelty to her! women could ONLY get blessed if they had their marriage relationship in order, so no matter how much of an foot the man was or what he did to her, she should not break her vows. as far as I remember, the only excuse for leaving is if the violence was life-threatening, otherwise, you just stay and become ever more virtuous and God will reward you and you'll inspire that man to be a loving husband. HA! mine was just inspired to be a couch potato and take credit for my work. whatever.
even on my way out the door leadership was using scripture to try to get me to stay with him. I don't even remember what, now. it was just ridiculous.
WD, if you consider what we say just our opinion, why does it bother you so much that we speak? amongst the group that actually experienced this stuff, it's more than an opinion and you actually don't HAVE to comment when we share our experiences. why are you compelled to lecture whenever someone didn't take appropriate action in YOUR opinion?
Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses. I have no problem with proven faults just I wannna say something here ones that have no logical basis for a case. here is why for anyone to be effective in proving their point or case for helping anyone to leave the site and information must be creditable. If it is not it is easy to make a case why what they say about GreaseSpot is true. One can simply point to any post and say see that is untrue they are just liars like we told you. Simple enough?
On the other hand if the information is honest truthful and documentable then they have no recourse now do they?
Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses. I have no problem with proven faults just I wannna say something here ones that have no logical basis for a case. here is why for anyone to be effective in proving their point or case for helping anyone to leave the site and information must be creditable. If it is not it is easy to make a case why what they say about GreaseSpot is true. One can simply point to any post and say see that is untrue they are just liars like we told you. Simple enough?
On the other hand if the information is honest truthful and documentable then they have no recourse now do they?
oh wow, this made me laugh. I don't actually care what "they" think, something could be well documented and waybrainers will still call us liars. you're saying the group talking about leadership-condoned abuse have no integrity, nor do we care about truth, we're just speculating, relying on fuzzy memories, and guessing. well. good thing I don't share these things for people like you. I share them for the people who also went through them. if someone who's abused is always told it's their imagination or that they asked for it or are lying, it's tough to get healed. it's difficult enough to cope with the aftermath, and finding some understanding - at least for me - made all the difference in being able to GET OUT and get healed. so I really don't give a rat's arse for your delicate sensibilities.
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JeffSjo
Thanks rascal, the same right back at you. :)
cman
The best rule I can think of to govern who to tell it to is "love and care for God's people." I already know that it's easy to say and hard to do, but a guy's gotta have standards.
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cman
Ha, Tom, -Yeah way-brain at it's best I think.
Say something amiss and you get some sort of label like not honest or something.
Johniam has some good things to say I'm sure as well as others
And we all mis-speak or jump to conclusions.
Like Ham said-
Welcome to the human race.
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JeffSjo
I think the worst thing that I can think of would be to end up like one of Job's miserable comforters. All full of knowledge, but only able to end up accusing the one who's been hurt.
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rascal
Wow...great analogy Jeff`S.
Our knowledge aquired, is nothing if it is not accompanied with love...it is just so much noise.
To me...that is what separates the genuine Christian from the wannabees
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potato
WD wants documentation... that's so funny! I requested documentation of one of my brainwashing sessions and the people involved denied any knowledge of it. there is no documentation! what struck me as most interesting is that telling a woman her head was full of holes and that she's dangerous was unmemorable for them... meaning:
1. they remember and can't admit they do for legal reasons.
or
2. they don't remember because such events were commonplace.
anyway, matthew 18:15-17 didn't require documents or photographs or police records. WD, we're at the "telling the whole church" step of this process. the one-on-one part, the two or more witnesses... sorry dude, long past. we have a scriptural right to do what we're doing.
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oldiesman
I've heard it taught, many times, that the wife should submit to the husband, be in subjection because the husband is the head of the wife. Various scriptures were used, among them were the following:
I was out of the room when they taught a doctrine that if the wife didn't obey the husband, then the husband is entitled to administer a physical beating to his wife.
For myself, it is logical to assume that if the physical beating by the husband to his disobedient wife were a doctrine encouraged by twi, then twi also would have shared some scripture backup, as this was their usual custom. Accordingly does anyone who attended these women's meetings remember a bible verse or two that twi used to condone the husband's physical beating of his disobedient wife? Did they share any verses that would suggest it were ok?
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johniam
In a related story...
One evening last week, my girlfriend and I were getting into bed.
Well, the passion starts to heat up, and she eventually says, "I don't feel like
it, I just want you to hold me."
I said, "WHAT??!! What was that?!"
So she says the words that every boyfriend on the planet dreads to hear...
"You're just not in touch with my emotional needs as a woman enough for me to satisfy your physical needs as a man."
She responded to my puzzled look by saying, "Can't you just love me for who I am and not what I do for you in the bedroom?"
Realizing that nothing was going to happen that night, I went to sleep.
The very next day I opted to take the day off of work to spend time with her. We went out to a nice lunch and then went shopping at a big, big unnamed department store. I walked around with her while she tried on several different very expensive outfits. She couldn't decide which one to take, so I told her we'd just buy them all. She wanted new shoes to compliment her new clothes, so I said, "Lets get a pair for each outfit."
We went on to the jewelry department where she picked out a pair of diamond earrings. Let me tell you... she was so excited. She must have thought I was one wave short of a shipwreck. I started to think she was testing me because she asked for a tennis bracelet when she doesn't even know how to play tennis.
I think I threw her for a loop when I said, "That's fine, honey." She was almost nearing sexual satisfaction from all of the excitement. Smiling with excited anticipation, she finally said, "I think this is all dear, let's go to the cashier."
I could hardly contain myself when I blurted out, "No honey, I don't feel like it."
Her face just went completely blank as her jaw dropped with a baffled, "WHAT?"
I then said, "Honey! I just want you to HOLD this stuff for a while. You're just not in touch with my financial needs as a man enough for me to satisfy your shopping needs as a woman."
And just when she had this look like she was going to kill me, I added, "Why can't you just love me for who I am and not for the things I buy you?"
Apparently I'm not having sex tonight either....but at least that woman knows I'm smarter than her.
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potato
related?? I guess I can see that. it's another story of retaliation, rather than talking things out. after all, the most important thing is to prove what a man you are by putting her in her place without having to spend any time talking things out as friends!
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Nero
Thank you God - if there is a God. Greater life force? Whoo! That I married the man I did!
Because him - even in all of his umedicated bi-polar glory - he was never as bad as some of the guys on here. Damn.
He's medicated now. And after reading some of the posts here - I've come to the conclusion that he's a freaking saint. God I love him and I am sooooo freaking blessed to have him.
That you... thank you greater life force...
For giving me the brain not to marry some of "these" instead.
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WhiteDove
Anyone that routinely deals with multiple stories of how events unfolded knows that one does not take the word of the participants at face value. Of course the robbers will tell you they did nothing wrong the others will chime in and agree. So does the policeman just shrug and say oh gee they are hurting I better just believe them. Hardly.... It's commen sense to know that until an accusation is provable it is not truth. Recently Mr. Vick was an alleged dog abuser some said he was, some said he was not. I'm sure his family said he was a good boy do we just believe them because they are hurting? Nope He got his day in court and the allegations were proved at that point they were no longer alleged but factual accusations. that’s how the process works if you want to make allegations about someone you best be prepared to prove your assault I've previously explained what a fact is refer to prior post. Until that time it is an opinion an should be referred to as such not a given truth until documented.
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Nero
Quick everyone! Let's jump on the time machine! We've gots-ta get video evidence to make some people happy! Oh! And DNA! Because we totally can't prove nuthin' without it. Thems are facts!
Because until then the victims are like robbers!
...
I've come to the conclusion that no one here needs to prove themselves to you. It's not like talking to you is going to help you reach some sort of enlightenment.
Half the time I wonder if you guys are just trolls rubbing your paws together and enjoying the way people jump like you know they will. Drama cows to be milked. I'm embarassed that I even replied... like I am replying now. Damn! XP
So anyways...
spouse abuse is bad... m'kay?
treating your wife or husband like garbage is bad too.
Where is that ignore button? Just in case...
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WhiteDove
So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer?
Hey speaking of CFS I'm looking at a transcript from the class Gee What do I see Perhaps Way Doctrine Documentable even
Lets see Genesis 2:18 Helpmeet Means companion, one who brings out the best in a man (Not a slave,or dog,ect) He doesn't take advantage of her,doesn't raise hell with her.
Ephesians 5:22 Submit=subject see vs 24 Christ does not lord it over the church. If your man yells, jump? BALONEY (note the all Caps on that one)
Well there is plenty more but not going to waste the time You get the point here is documentable doctrine of the Way, is it any wonder people scrach their heads when some contrary thing appears an of course just must be believed on faith? There couldn't be any other reason why someone would just say such a thing.
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johniam
quote: after all, the most important thing is to prove what a man you are by putting her in her place without having to spend any time talking things out as friends!
Awww, sweet potato.
This was an email I got. My wife is the one who pointed it out to me. She thinks it's funny. I just thought this thread needed a hug.
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potato
context, john. it might be funny elsewhere, just not here.
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Nero
It was about as funny as when someone posted a joke about killing a cat on the cat forum I was a part of.
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WhiteDove
You apparently don't understand how life works, too bad for you , there are accepted rules to proving your case, of course those that have no case don't like the rules. again too bad for you. your free to voice any opinion you want but opinion is not fact. Gee I bet Drew Peterson is hurting I guess we just accept his version of what happened to his wives as fact because he said so. Hey no proof needed he said it good enough for me. Lets just hold hands and be loving. Yeah it works like that..........
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Nero
Riiigghhttt... That's how it is. You got it all figured out.
Ah well. Thanks for letting me get to know you. Too bad for me.
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potato
WD, if you consider what we say just our opinion, why does it bother you so much that we speak? amongst the group that actually experienced this stuff, it's more than an opinion and you actually don't HAVE to comment when we share our experiences. why are you compelled to lecture whenever someone didn't take appropriate action in YOUR opinion?
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Nero
That's what I was wondering... although I won't be able to wait - biting the nails - to see his wonderful uplifting reply. Oh well.
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potato
of course they did, but since the bible doesn't explicitly say you can beat your wife they had to use their usual convoluted scripture build-up with stories from the OT. lots of smoke-screening, because doctrinally it's wrong... so, here goes... if a man beats his wife then he's not pleased to dwell with her, so she's off the hook if he leaves but ONLY IF HE LEAVES. she can't leave. another story pulled into the fray was the one of Nabal and Abigail... oh what a wonderful woman Abigail was because she was faithful to her man in spite of his cruelty to her! women could ONLY get blessed if they had their marriage relationship in order, so no matter how much of an foot the man was or what he did to her, she should not break her vows. as far as I remember, the only excuse for leaving is if the violence was life-threatening, otherwise, you just stay and become ever more virtuous and God will reward you and you'll inspire that man to be a loving husband. HA! mine was just inspired to be a couch potato and take credit for my work. whatever.
even on my way out the door leadership was using scripture to try to get me to stay with him. I don't even remember what, now. it was just ridiculous.
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Ham
So what about a little "stowry"..
imagine sitting in a "LEADER'S" meeting. The bigwig limb guy, his cronies (branch coordinators) and their wives..
it was a little planning session. Nothing formal.
One of the wives asks a question.. with a genuine concern.. she is ignored. Another one asks..
in unison, the three "men" say.. "WOMAN, SHUT the F*** UP!"
"did I hear you right?
and another round on cue, "WOMAN, SHUT the F*** UP!" and simultaneously, they throw burning cigarettes into the wives faces and hair..
I witnessed this, first hand.
Same limb guy who ran the family and sex class, on more than one ocassion..
Yeah.. same guy could stand at the platform and say how he loved his wife.. and others oughter do the same with their wives..
ended up in yet another woman's bed..
and divorced.
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WhiteDove
Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses. I have no problem with proven faults just I wannna say something here ones that have no logical basis for a case. here is why for anyone to be effective in proving their point or case for helping anyone to leave the site and information must be creditable. If it is not it is easy to make a case why what they say about GreaseSpot is true. One can simply point to any post and say see that is untrue they are just liars like we told you. Simple enough?
On the other hand if the information is honest truthful and documentable then they have no recourse now do they?
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Ham
This less than half an excuse of a "man" DIRECTED others to ABUSE their wives.
He was "leadership".
He did this, in his CAPACITY as "leadership".
This was in 1975, before mean boy loy got the reins..
the "man".. was trained by vic, PERSONALLY. Early early corps..
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potato
oh wow, this made me laugh. I don't actually care what "they" think, something could be well documented and waybrainers will still call us liars. you're saying the group talking about leadership-condoned abuse have no integrity, nor do we care about truth, we're just speculating, relying on fuzzy memories, and guessing. well. good thing I don't share these things for people like you. I share them for the people who also went through them. if someone who's abused is always told it's their imagination or that they asked for it or are lying, it's tough to get healed. it's difficult enough to cope with the aftermath, and finding some understanding - at least for me - made all the difference in being able to GET OUT and get healed. so I really don't give a rat's arse for your delicate sensibilities.
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