The Voice of Offence

[What The Hey]

I've been on this chat board for a number of years and still see and often end up reading posts by the same hurting people who have also been posting here for a number of years. What I've learned is hurting people usually only end up hurting themselves and they also end up hurting others who are easily offended. They are still speaking out of hurt but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly. Someone starts talking critically of someone, but if you were truly spiritual you would step in and say, "I see you have this brother or sister in Christ on your heart. We need to pray for them. You lead the prayer."

That doesn't work here because that would shut a lot of people up pretty quick. Of course one can always do it in a self-righteous, 'holier-than-thou' way or one can do it out of love. Doing it out of love would probably convict someone though, but it's still your choice on how to do it. The reason a lot of people are still dealing with hurt is because they haven't learned to recognize the source and answered it. They haven't learned yet how to speak back to offences and recognized it for what it is or learned how to take the 'life support' off of it.

To have and lead a life of victory one has to know how to deal with an offence whenever it comes toward them, but many have never learned the lesson on how to deal with offences so they continue to nuture those offences instead of rooting them out. The bible says bitterness when it takes root will defile you. (Hebrews 12:15) Other things got planted on the inside and they watered and nurtured those things, and some people are still dealing with those things many, many, many years later. Why? Because they watered and "nurtured" those offences. They not only sprouted, but they now have become really BIG ISSUES to deal with - especially when it effects your emotions and your decisions. When people get mad or angry they say things and make a lot of wrong decisions they never would have made if those offences had not gotten on the inside and grown.

A lot of people think they are "speaking out of reality" but in truth they are only "speaking out of their own emotions". Emotions are never a good source of reality, especially when people keep bringing up offences that have continued to bother them for years on end. They are not only deceiving themselves, but they are also deceiving and misleading you and others as well. The problem being that most Christians don't know anything about how to deal with the voices of offence that come to them. As the bible says, there are many voices in the world - but one has to learn to recognize those different voices.

One would think and believe God Himself must lead by offence by the topics of choice here and by the way some post and respond to other people's posts. They obviously think it's God who is leading them. Now years later you're still offended by something that happened to you many years, and you still think it's the true God who is leading you but He's not. Get a clue. Get over the offence first, and then see what God says. I am sure not too many people understand what I'm talking about because they've spent too much time listening to all the other voices that come to them and are still having problems dealing with those voices.

Sometimes I have to say these things because some people don't even realize what they are doing. Things got planted on the inside of them and then others come along and they keep on watering it and nurturing it and then they start growing. Once they start growing they are going to start bearing fruit - good or bad. The reason some people are still dealing with "bad things" is largely because they haven't taken the life support off of it. The best thing of course is not let those things take root whenever offences come. In other words, don't deny that it's there.

Here's a thought. Recognize the hurting person is only hurting themselves - they are speaking out of hurt. Sometimes hurting people even hurt people. We've all done it at some point and time. But one has to learn to recognize the source and how to properly answer it by not returning evil for evil. Rather you learn to return good by first recognizing how God has been good to you, and then you return good for evil. You don't let it get in, you deal with it immediately. If it gets in and stays in, it will get a root just like Hebrews 12:15 says and then it will start to grow. Once something gets a root, it's much harder to get out. The larger the root is, the harder it is to pull the thing out. If a sapling starts to sprout up in your yard where you don't want a tree, the best time to pull it out is when it is still a sapling, not when it's a giant redwood. If you let it get that big then you're not going to be able to pull that thing out - not by yourself. You may have to get the chainsaw and then it still isn't completely out! It will start popping little shoots up off the stump you left behind. When it takes up a whole lot of ground on the inside of you, then you really have something very difficult to deal with - something you might not be able to deal with very easily. So you don't give it any time. You respond immediately, and you respond in love. The reason many people are still mad and can't forgive other people is largely because they didn't respond to the offence immediately. But most of us, well, we just let the thing grow. Remember your emotions and even theirs is not a good source for reality in this time of offence. Emotions will only deceive and mislead you. Get pass the offence first and then see what God is saying to you. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

Here's a second thought. None of us would be posting on GSC except for the fact we all stem from the same "Way Tree" and we all have some real deep roots to deal with because of that - roots that are both good and bad. James 3:14 says, "But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth." In other words, don't deny that it's there. Don't say, "I'm not offended." Yea, I notice your sliding back now. I had your attention and you were sitting in the front row and now your sliding further back to the second. Don't look at me in that tone of voice. I've been sharing the truth with others for a long time. I know how it works. I've got eyes and I see exactly where people are going with this. It happens every time. People initially get close, but once they get offended by someone or by something that someone did they back off. Then you don't see them at all. "What happend to so-and-so?" I'll tell you what happened. They got offended. Then they say, "Everything's all right." No. Everythings not alright. If your not offended then we shouldn't be seeing the fruit of offence. But that's all most people ever see.

What is the fruit of offence? Seperation is one. So don't deny it. Another thing is, recognize the damage it is doing. Acknowledge the Word of God because the Word of God tells you it is doing damage. It seperates people, it shuts down your faith in God and His Word, it effects your emotions and so forth. We've all been over that. Recognize the Word of God because it is affecting you whether you think it is or not. Recognize that you are in a spiritual prison. In other words, you must recognize that Satan is trapping you whenever you hold on to offences. He' binding you up, but even many Christians don't recognize just how bound up they are. They think, "Well, I'll just uh.." but then they start seething on the inside thinking they aren't retaliating and that it's not effecting them, but they are just getting bound up.

Sometimes the devil does things slow - just like a frog that won't jump out of the water when it gradually gets hot. If you take a frog and throw it into hot water it will immediately jump out. But put him in water he likes and gradually increase the temperture, he'll stay put and get cooked right there not realizing he is getting cooked alive. That is the way the devil works. He just gradually gets things into some people. More and more he gets things into people. Their hurting. Then someone comes along and then hurts them again. Then someone else does it again and then they are all burned up and burned out with life.

I'll just close with this verse for you to think on further - something we should all strive for. Acts 24:16

And herein do I exercise myself, to have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man.

[Jim]

Yawn.

You sure can talk a lot.

This isn't a Christian forum. Granted, many of the participants are Christian and perhaps your words and scriptual references are meaningful to them. So be it.

OTOH, many of us have serious doubts about biblical justifications and explainations. We will continue to discuss and vent about our treatment by TWI. Get over it.

-jim

[cman]

the verse don't match your post wth,

have you dealt with being treated like some here

or just haven't recognized it yet

[year2027]

God first

Beloved What The Hey

God loves you my dear friend

it blesses me that your written what is in your heart because that and only that will help you deal with what deep down there trying to come out

I see the many voices as ideals in life you have had like or I have had

fleshly -- one and one are

1. 1+1=2

2. one and one = channel 11

3. one and one = a divion

4. and we could name more

or spiritually one and one are

1. unity with God

2. one kind

3. one Christ

4. one truth

5. we could name more here too

but all answers are right and true but each is only a small part of the whole picture of what one and one are

yes we got a long way to go until we put aside every ideal we have or had and only trust the small voice of Christ in us

now there are many reason we come here but I was blessed to read some of your reasons that you are trying to deal with and in some ways I am like you and others I am not

but as for Emotions do not forget love is a Emotion and that God is love

I welcome Emotions because Emotions tell me when some one is loving me and when to cover my eye to block their right hand

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[GarthP2000]

I've been on this chat board for a number of years and still see and often end up reading posts by the same hurting people who have also been posting here for a number of years. What I've learned is ..... etc., etc., etc.

... which translated to non-bulls**t English means same old, same old defense and whitewash of 'The Teacher'.

Same song, second verse. <_<

[rascal]

cman, I`d bet money that wth was one of those that was doing the using and abusing..and now in order to live with themselves...to avoid coming to grips with the reality of his/her culpability...needs to come up with all kinds of excuses as to why it isn`t a big deal, justifying him/herself as to why it was our faults, why we deserved it.

Throw in a few token bible verses and voila....the insane ramblings now have some sort of validity.

wth, I`d say that you need to get humble before God and ask his forgiveness for what you did yn his name, and then seek out the forgiveness and make amends to all those that you have harmed.

[Eyesopen]

What I've learned is; hurting people usually only end up hurting themselves and they also end up hurting others who are easily offended. They are still speaking out of hurt but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly.

In other words, don't deny that it's there.

Recognize the hurting person is only hurting themselves - they are speaking out of hurt. Sometimes hurting people even hurt people. We've all done it at some point and time. But one has to learn to recognize the source and how to properly answer it by not returning evil for evil. You don't let it get in, you deal with it immediately. If it gets in and stays in, it will get a root just like Hebrews 12:15 says and then it will start to grow.

I think I see your point and just as Roy is I am also pleased that you have shared your heart with us.

I don't disagree with the biblical analogy of things taking root and growing. This analogy is utilized in the Bible in both a negative and most often in a positive manner.

However if I may express what I have learned from posters here at GS. There are some people that are still very much in pain. And for the most part those that are still hurting are desperately trying to identify and thereby nullify the source. That is a far cry from what you say that you have witnessed "but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly".

Often times during the recognition and nullification process hurting people do hurt others and upon occasion further harm themselves. But by and large when an injured person exposes their wound and others help them clean and bind the wound then healing begins. However I have witnessed on this board a blatent disregard and callousness in regards to injured people exposing their wounds. I have seen some people when confronted with an open and infected wound tell the person with the wound to "just get over it". There was no attempt to see things from the injured ones point of view. There was no compassion or Godly love. There was only disbelief and rancor. That my friend is dishonest. That is someone else not dealing with their hurt honestly.

Yes we all eventually need to recognize the source of the pain and injury. We all eventually need to properly address both the source of the injury and the injury itself while not prejudging or inflicting more injury. "Returning evil for evil" does apply to those that attempt to ignore or disregard the injury of another. We should endeavor to not treat anyone with disregard especially those that we acknowledge as our brethren.

[cman]

good possibility rascal

wth, you cannot read the thoughts and intents of the heart

just figure your own out

and possibly do away with your golden calf for a while

there is forgiveness no matter what you think

a determination to seek the TRUTH is commendable in all things

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. 3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

[GeorgeStGeorge]

cman, I`d bet money that wth was one of those that was doing the using and abusing..and now in order to live with themselves...to avoid coming to grips with the reality of his/her culpability...needs to come up with all kinds of excuses as to why it isn`t a big deal, justifying him/herself as to why it was our faults, why we deserved it.

Rascal (and cman, for that matter),

Unless you actually happen to know WTH, I'd say that was a pretty serious accusation.

He has a different point of view. You don't agree with it. I don't agree with it. That doesn't make him an abuser.

George

[rascal]

Oh please George, ..get your scolding wagging finger smiley icon out of my face :)

WTH voiced his OPINION of people here, their hearts, their motives, their mental state based on what he has read.

I based MY opinion of wth, their heart, their motives, their mental state based on what I have read.

We have BOTH posted ou opinions, based on what others chose to share on these boards as to why people would behave in a manner that is simply incomprehensible to us.

Edited December 2, 2007 by rascal

[cman]

and just why is that different pov there?

that's for him to figure out

his pov is accusing others

s'pose you DIDN'T NOTICE THAT!!!!

huh georgestgeorge?

Edited December 2, 2007 by cman

[Goey]

I've been on this chat board for a number of years and still see and often end up reading posts by the same hurting people who have also been posting here for a number of years. What I've learned is hurting people usually only end up hurting themselves and they also end up hurting others who are easily offended. They are still speaking out of hurt but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly. Someone starts talking critically of someone, but if you were truly spiritual you would step in and say, "I see you have this brother or sister in Christ on your heart. We need to pray for them. You lead the prayer."

While it is true that some people are still hurting from their past in TWI and may speak out of that hurt, many others have moved beyond the hurt. These speak, not from present hurt, but from having honestly delt with the hurt and moved past it with an understaing how and why it happened, and knowing the source(s) of the hurt. I have noticed that when folks "criticze" the actions (past or present) of certain leaders who did dispicable things in the name of God , that certain others will almost certainly come to and try to silence the disclosure of these actions, by suggesting that it is not spiritual todiscuss or critisize the actions of these spiritual mauraders, and that if we were truly spiritual, we should only see the good and put the bad in a lock box. Nothing could be more harmful.

That doesn't work here because that would shut a lot of people up pretty quick. Of course one can always do it in a self-righteous, 'holier-than-thou' way or one can do it out of love. Doing it out of love would probably convict someone though, but it's still your choice on how to do it. The reason a lot of people are still dealing with hurt is because they haven't learned to recognize the source and answered it. They haven't learned yet how to speak back to offences and recognized it for what it is or learned how to take the 'life support' off of it.

And it's a good thing that it doesn't work. Why should anyone shut up in regards to the offenses and the people that commited them? While it is true that only focusing on the offences will not lead to getting over the hurt etc, we must first know the offences/offenders in order to understand the reasons for them so that the healing process can begin. The fact that the offences and the people that committed them are discussed a lot, is not necessarily an indication that anyone is still hurting or that they have not learned how to "take the life support" off it it. Discussion is healthy, if its purpose is to lead to understanding either for themselves or for others, even it includes critisizing ( pointing out the errors) of certain offensive individuals. Shutting up is one of the worse things we could do.

To have and lead a life of victory one has to know how to deal with an offence whenever it comes toward them, but many have never learned the lesson on how to deal with offences so they continue to nuture those offences instead of rooting them out. The bible says bitterness when it takes root will defile you. (Hebrews 12:15) Other things got planted on the inside and they watered and nurtured those things, and some people are still dealing with those things many, many, many years later. Why? Because they watered and "nurtured" those offences. They not only sprouted, but they now have become really BIG ISSUES to deal with - especially when it effects your emotions and your decisions. When people get mad or angry they say things and make a lot of wrong decisions they never would have made if those offences had not gotten on the inside and grown.

I have notice that when the offences and offenders are discussed that some will almost invariably project bitterness, judgmentalism, etc upon the discussers, assuming that these people are consumed or obsessed with hatred, etc, which is far from the truth. When we ignore/forget the past we lose the lessons it can teach us. The past is a part of who we are and should not be witewashed or put in a lock box. Whitwashing the past results in self-dececption and a skewed sense of reality. I would rather carry the scars that represent the lessons learned from the offences than to pretend to live victoriously in la la land.

While there may be a small few who are consumed with bitterness, etc as a result of "offences", there are many many more who are not, and who have dealt the past in a way that allows them to live the "life of victory" that they choose to live, whether it is Christian or not. Part of the victory in life is being able to discuss the past and the lessons learned. Sometimes emotions come up. These emotions are part of being human and should not be errantly taken as evidence of somone being rooted in bitterness. Concerning the few who might be yet be consumed with "bitterness", I would hope that you would pray for them as much as you would have them pray for the offenders. Unfortunately that does not seem to be the case. The victims deserve as much, if not more compassion than the offenders.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Goey

[potato]

some people hurt others because they like to. maybe vpw and lcm and others like them who still hurt are just lost souls in pain, dunno. maybe they just don't care about other people and want things their way no matter the cost in human life.

I don't feel obligated to pray for them. they aren't my responsibility, they aren't my brothers. I don't feel obligated to forgive them if they're maintaining their status quo of evil. but I will speak up against them and their actions and I can be angry if I want.

I spent 20 years in twi. I've been out a little over a year. twi and way brain control my life less and less and I feel angry less often (but the depth of anger remains the same, as I know they are still doing to others what they did to me and feeling justified in doing it). I think that's pretty good progress. after all, an accident that lasts a few seconds can require months of recovery. my head-on collision with reality lasted a couple of decades and I've already healed to a great degree.

I won't lose the anger and disgust or the ability to empathize with others working through it. if I ever do, I'll know I'm dead.

[excathedra]

what ? the hey ? could you condense that for me ?

[YID]

WTH;

I started to respond to your post and realized I am not able to really contribute any more than this: Some people want to be here.

[GarthP2000]

... and speaking of wanting to be here; What is WTH's reasons for wanting to be here? For continuing to be here? :unsure:

Since he is so over the 'anger and bitterness' and so on that supposedly afflict the rest of us with our complaining about TWI, ..... why is he still here, ... complaining about us?

<_<

Edited December 2, 2007 by GarthP2000

[Ham]

Maybe it's not such a bad place.

For most people, it seems to be a little slice of "heaven".

For ex-leadership types who think that they still rule the world.. maybe they think it's the other place..

[Ductape]

The biggest mistake I see in your logic WTH, is you are convinced in your heart it is over and all in the past. So, you know without a shadow of a doubt that some VPW worshipping self appointed MOG some where right now isn't positioning himself to be serviced by another man's wife? Are you so convinced that some innocent beautiful young girl isn't being approached right now with the doctrine of sexual ministering? Are families still being divided over the doctrines of devils and the worship of "Our Father in The Word", can you certify that?

I have run across more than one group hiding in the bushes refusing to look on the "net" and they still speak of the glory days of VPW and what a man of gaud he was. They still promote and use all his classes and the single "clergy" never go without; if you know what I mean. To them the testimonies of many are lies straight from the pit to defeat. OH what happened to all the happy thankful hearts! See how bitter they have grown.

So, WTH; if you would live in the here and now you would no the good work of clearing the Almighty God's name from the contamination of the perverted doctrine that allows adultery is still to be done!

Edited December 2, 2007 by Ductape

[Bramble]

I've been on this chat board for a number of years and still see and often end up reading posts by the same hurting people who have also been posting here for a number of years. What I've learned is hurting people usually only end up hurting themselves and they also end up hurting others who are easily offended. They are still speaking out of hurt but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly. Someone starts talking critically of someone, but if you were truly spiritual you would step in and say, "I see you have this brother or sister in Christ on your heart. We need to pray for them. You lead the prayer."

Yes, it is far worse in TWI viewpoint to be the hurting victim of a situation with leadership than to be the leader that hacked someone up. Because leadership have some special blessing from God, so when they mess up and the 'little people' get hurt, its all okay! That happens with leaders, people. Let us pray. And forgive. And never speak a negative so the ministry will not be blamed--but don't like warn anyone, because that is not okay.

What's not okay is to feel hurt and Talk About That Leader's Mistakes! Boy Howdy are you treading on thin spiritual ice there! You Need that leader--where would your life be with out a leader? God called that man to lead You! So suck it up. So what if you got hurt, God Knows that people get hurt. You just need to shut up about it and it will all go awaaay. Emotion is keeping you from doing the Word...move the Word, yup, that's the ticket. Probably you got hurt anyway because somehow you are lacking before God--unlike your leader, who just made a mistake, people.

[thankgodifinallywokeup]

I know you.

I thought you were gone!

Were you expecting some sort of guilt feeling to arise within our hearts? Or was it fear you were searching for, aiming at, trying to stir up within others here?

This is the worldwide web.

Think about it.

Let's see...could it be that anyone could read about our experiences and we know that and that's why we tell, tell, tell???

What was that poem about the bridge? It fits here nicely, imo.

[waysider]

SHHHHHHHH!

Let's just keep it "our little secret".

No one needs to know what REALLY happened, now do they?

[rascal]

I am always baffled when a person ISN`T offended by the treachey of twi :(

[socks]

Old saying - "if you pick it, it'll bleed".

You know, when your Mom would say - well, my Mom never actually said that. In fact, I heard it from a guy, talking about tuning a guitar. When you're tuning a guitar, at some point a guitar's as in tune as it's going to be - that guitar, that time, right there - and you can fiddle with it all you want and it'll just go bad to worse and back again. So the application of the "old saying" was - that's as good as it's going to get. Let's play.

My Mom actually did say things like that though - I'd get a scabbie and it would itch and she'd tell me don't mess with it, let it heal. She had this powder, some kind of stuff she could put on any kind of cut or scrape and indeed, if you'd leave it alone, it would heal. But it would itch from time to time. Back in the day when Band-Aids were in those little tin cans she might put one or three on the area.

I'd test it, just shy of actually picking at it, look at it, check it. Peek at it. Rub it, scratch around it. Have someone inspect it. Thinking back now it seemed I must have had at least one or two on a leg and/or arm my whole childhood from something or other. Bicycle skid outs were a biggie.

Then the Day of Removal would finally arrive, when by all reckonings the Wound was healed. The accepted wisdom was to yank it off in one quick peel. I preferred the scratch and lift method, but that didn't always sell. So one way or the other it would come off and there would be a fresh little scar. Most of them aren't visible anymore.

I'm not sure what, if anyything this has to do with the topic but after all that typing, reading back, I'm sure I had something in mind at the start. Whatever it was I'll assume it's represented here and leave this up.

[Edi]

I'll just close with this verse for you to think on further - something we should all strive for. Acts 24:16

And herein do I exercise myself, to have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man.

You brought up some good points WTH but this last one I really liked... to have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man. I fall short and miss the mark on just about everything. I don't want to, don't mean to, don't intend to but I do. BUT I try every day to do better. In Ephesians it says that we are growing up in Him in love in all things. That is definately a journey - a lifetime journey.

My hubby and I were on a day trip today and we saw a bumper sticker that hit it home to us, "I'll be perfect when I get that walking on water thing down". Growing is acceptable to me but abuse is not. Abuse is hurtful and brings death to the spirit of a person and belongs under, "Thou shalt not kill". There are many ways to "kill" - it's not always in the flesh, although it may affect the flesh if there is abuse long enough. If I strive to have a conscience void of offending God and my brothers and sisters then I'm growing. It's all I can do.

But I do understand people being hurt, used and abused so much that they are bitter, cynical and guarded. We hold the things that protect us until we don't need them anymore. Been there, done that, worn the T-shirt and always try to take the thing off. That is a process though - in some areas a LONG process and I do better in some than others. Some "dragons" have been slain, some are still active, some sleep and some wait in the wings for an opening to be unleashed.

If I looked at all the things I do wrong, all the areas that need growing up, all the areas that need to be healed, all the areas that I weep about in private I would hate myself and everyone else. Instead I ask what can I do today, please show them to me and how to do it. And hope it's enough to live in as much peace as I can with myself and with others. It seems I always come up short though but I keep trying. I like to think most people do this too. It gives me hope - for myself and for others.

[WordWolf]

I know you.

I thought you were gone!

Were you expecting some sort of guilt feeling to arise within our hearts? Or was it fear you were searching for, aiming at, trying to stir up within others here?

This is the worldwide web.

Think about it.

Let's see...could it be that anyone could read about our experiences and we know that and that's why we tell, tell, tell???

What was that poem about the bridge? It fits here nicely, imo.

The Bridge Builder

Author: Will Allen Dromgoole

An old man, going a lone highway,

Came, at the evening, cold and gray,

To a chasm, vast, and deep, and wide,

Through which was flowing a sullen tide.

The old man crossed in the twilight dim;

The sullen stream had no fears for him;

But he turned, when safe on the other side,

And built a bridge to span the tide.

"Old man," said a fellow pilgrim, near,

"You are wasting strength with building here;

Your journey will end with the ending day;

You never again must pass this way;

You have crossed the chasm, deep and wide-

Why build you a bridge at the eventide?"

The builder lifted his old gray head:

"Good friend, in the path I have come," he said,

"There followeth after me today,

A youth, whose feet must pass this way.

This chasm, that has been naught to me,

To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be.

He, too, must cross in the twilight dim;

Good friend, I am building the bridge for him."