Come on, you're kidding, right? Like the sheriff or somethin?
Nope. No joke.
There were people in Fellow Laborers who were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night and given this directive.
Imagine being in the middle of rural Ohio with very little money and a car that ain't worth a poop and being told you better clear the state line before the sun went down.
We had people from Ohio, Penn., Virginia, Kansas, New York, New Jersey, Texas, California, etc.
This same type of thing happened in the way corps, probably even more so because the corps was so much bigger.
We weren't allowed to ask questions or discuss it.
We had to carry on as if the person never existed.
Anyway, after seeing some of that stuff happen, I don't think God will hold it against us if we were wrong about "believer's meetings".
Well, Nero, this is one of the topics that I questioned before leaving TWI. I got the evil eye for sure.
"IF" SIT and Int is still real for today( I am not sure now, but don't know), then,
why when interpreting was it a message to US????? It was supposed to be ''magnifiying GOD"
not ourselves.
So, ya, maybe it is blasphemy in a weird way.
Personally, I think it was definately done wrong.
It should of sounded like this: " You are awesome, God, worthy to be praised, holy, and just........."
not, ''my little children, just know that you are beloved in my sight, and I know all the hairs on your head''.....
If the first centrury believers heard the apostles speaking ''the wonderful works of God', and MAGNIFY GOD' , then it wouldn't of been about themselves.
Keep it up with your questions, that is how you release the bondage....
Hi Nero, I hope you're making progress with your seeking answers to you unsettling thoughts. I have no doubt in my mind that wondering whether or not we're speaking truth in any setting is a good question, perhaps one we'd all be better off thinking about after we've speaking.
My best answer to your question is that we are not blashpheming when we're speaking by the spirit of God as His word teaches. Everybody that spoke the scriptures into existence by the spirit of God spoke for him too.
There is a lot about what you were taught in terms of practice that I don't know because I wasn't there. Since my days with twi I've tweeked a few of the details but nothing's changed my mind that these manifestations are scriptural and a really GOOD thing when done with a heart that's seeking to love God's people.
First - sorry if I don't make much sense right now. My blood sugar is so low I think I'm about to faint! But I wanted to reply before I went to lunch.
Thanks for the replies! :3 Yes, sometimes I do find myself going: Oh crap! What did I do again? And hoping that I didn't do something incredibly wrong. But I am slowly coming wading through this stuff and this place has been a great help.
I can't remember where we were taught to translate when we were speaking in tongues. Even though I was a part of TWI most of my life - it seems after I left there was this giant shut-off valve and I forgot some of the scriptures (if there ever were any to begin with) that backed this stuff up. Anyone have an answer?
Interpreting and all that seems more natural if I put it from my perspective... sort of like: "God loves you, blah blah blah!" not "I the Lord thy God loves you! Blah blah!" Although I guess it's not bad to do it both ways?
Roy, I remember Preacher getting ....ed off at you for speaking in tongues and interpreting by yourself. I think I saw a thread where you mentioned doing just that. I could be wrong! Even if you did - I don't think you were wrong for doing it. But I was wondering if there is anything in the bible against it? I remember people in TWI reacting the same way Preacher did if I mentioned doing it by myself. I couldn't remember if that was just something VP or CM said.
I do know that it made practicing very difficult. And when I couldn't say anything different because I didn't have practice people would get upset at me some more hehe.
I remember someone saying speaking in tongues or quoting scripture over and over was like a mantra of sorts (can't remember who) but it helps clear your head because you can't think of something while you are doing it. Was that the peaceful feeling I used to get?
I keep trying to figure out if I want to keep SIT or toss it. I still wonder about it. If the feeling I'm trying to bring up is peacefulnes - maybe I should try another religion's chants? At least then it would be in a real language and not something I'm just doing?
One wonders why you'd have to "practice" something that was a "God-given ability".
But, then I do wonder about a lot of that stuff...
Very true. I guess I felt like I needed to practice because it didn't feel natual at all. Speaking in tongues seemed more natural - because it required no thought. Like speaking jibberish. Is it jibberish? I'm trying to figure that out too.
i think it was and is alot of bunk
i always felt like a phoney doing it
guess i just wasn't
spirtual enough
Me too.
It seemed like the interpretation required some thought... because it's not like I could just start talking in a language I understood and claim to be God without feeling like it was forced. It always felt weird when I did it... like a feeling of anxiety would roll over me. It was never a blessing to me really.
Why people like the Way fools and "Preacher are getting ....ed off at me for speaking in tongues and interpreting by myself" because they read into these verses things that are not there
1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
they over read this verse thinking this is for all times but its only for when I am in a group to keep order but while I and you are alone is another matter
I learn alone and in groups so tongues can teach me alone but while in a church I do not want to stray all day until everybody spoken
Ah, now I remember - now that you showed it to me of course! XP I can't believe I forgot that.
That is a neat way of thinking of it - to keep things in order while in a group... but if there is just one person - what if there is no group to speak to? Some people would never get to enjoy that then?
One of the things that was tweeked for me over the last few years was realizing that the way leadership structured these manifestations during twig in the old days was too mechanical if you will. What I mean by that is that in general they were too structured. The best possible reason for that I can think of is fear of something going wrong. If leadership was more confident of people being loving and orderly why have it so structured? Looking back on it, seems more like a lack of confidence in their ability to deal with things or a lack of confidence in God's people.
The worst I've seen is that the control of the manifestations was used to keep down some things that I believe God wanted said, and that needed to be said. Think about it, "EXORTATION TO A MORE WORTHY ENDEAVOR" can pretty pointed. (that is a quote of the old expanded translation in the old intermediate class of the word "exhortation" from 1 co 14) It means acknowledging that what you're doing may not be worthy. I've had leadership say I was out of order because these things shouldn't step on their toes. My answer was that 'it was the truth'.
I know that at times they seemed like they were milktoast over the years too. And its clear to me that when you read in God's word about their effect on people that some hearts were suppose to be pierced and probably some darkness revealed too. All for the good of everyone present too, not just because someone was trying to make a name for themselves; which can be a false accusation too if it's used for controling God's people.
Even now after reading it for the first time I have to agree that the bible doesn't "SAY" that you can't do it at all if you're alone. You've given me something to think about there 2027.
I am glad you enjoy that and that I gave you some thing to think about
but let me add
The great fool that love to lie to us told us tongues and interpretation were not done in Old Testament times
but VPW was wrong
Is not a tongue a language?
yes
Is not the most basic language done by pictures?
yes art on cave walls
So a dream is a lot of pictures put together?
a dream could be call a tongue or language
and if you do not understand the dream or vision its becomes a unknown language
if it can be given a interpretation than you have interpretation of a unknown language the dream
Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;
will you know the rest of the story
hope you enjoy
and yes there were tongues with interpreter in old times so that was not the greater thing
the greater thing is Christ in you as a seed of hope
you do not need to look for Christ coming because he has enter your heart like old times people or people without Christ
On my last posting I was running out of time and emotional and I wanted to supply a couple of scriptures that you asked for because without scripture its all guess work and with scripture, it's still a lot to deal with.
1 cor 14:5 This is a very plainly stated exhortation to do a good thing.
1 co 14:12 I've never seen it be REALLY good when the heart was more about self than about the good of the entire congregation.
1 cor 14:25 This is the verse that convinces me it's not allways going to be sugar and spice. It seems to me this is more about heart issues. I suspect that when the ministry was breaking up in the old days that we could have used more "1 cor 14:8" and less milktoast. But it's God Word, He's the one that will judge. I have to attest to that I believe there was more available from God in these manifestations than was generally sought after by God's people or allowed by leadership. To tell you the truth when I think of these manifestations I think in terms of spiritual warfare(drumbeats and all) and not milktoast. Of course when I read some of the sweet things in the epistle of 1 john I end up thinking in terms of warfare too, sweet isn't necessarily milktoast.
Hi year2027,
Your observation was entirely new to me and I'm just starting to consider it, but I'd have to be
extremely convinced by scripture that "interpretation of tounges" wasn't entirely focused on things spoken by the tounge. While it does seem obvious that the word "interpretation" all by its self with no relation to the manifestation of speaking in tounges can be interpretation of anything you want it to be. But once again you've given me something to chew on.
God bless you guys and hope things are well with you.
Couldn't it be that God had no other way to communicate with the Old Testament guys but dreams or speaking out loud, like the burning bush, the donkey, etc. I never thought about interpretation being tied with tongues in the OT. I thought the "manifestations" were for the Body of Christ which wasn't around back then. To edify the body? If that's wrong, that's a mind blower. Certainly worth another look ....
JeffSjo -- yes there is a lot to think about or in other words put the question straight to God or his son Jesus Christ for a spiritual answer because you have asked with faith that God will guide to truth because like Jesus Christ taught some one must teach us and I believe that some one Christ in us the gift of holy spirit
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
who gave Philip the words no one but the holy spirit and who should we trust five senses works of reasearch that can lie or the gift within you that can not lie
VPW said check tongues against written scripture but I say boldly check your understanding of written scripture against the Christ in you
irisheyes -- could it be VPW needed to find something greater but the greater is Holy Spirit overshowering -v- holy spirit within
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
I know these verses say that the tithe is a carnal law but it all so talks about a changed
the greatest changed is from looking forward to Jesus Christ first coming to Christ resting in your heart as Christ in you hope of glory
but what are tongues for lets look at the first time they are used in New Testament times
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
to receive power and knowledge is power - in Old Testament times dreams gave Joseph knowledge that gave him power and made him a witness of the truth
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
God spoke by the mouth of David in old testament times the gift of God overshowering David
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
something or some one came from heaven and enter these men
the return of Christ to enter their hearts the second coming which does not mean there not going to be a third coming or complete coming
Christ in us hope of glory
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
in their own language - the wonderful works of God they heard otherwise a teaching that show them God's love by spoken word from men receiving knowledge by the holy spirit
roy, I think sometimes I forget to just go to the Word and re-read it. On Pentecost their tongues were understood. How cool that must have been. How often I forget to keep things simple. Thanks!
Hi guys, this is jeffsjo and I hope things are going well with you guys
Hi irisheyes, check out Heb 1:1,2
These verses are loaded with information about how God communicated with his folks throughout time. In spite of all the different ways he communicated (burning bush,talking foot, or still small voice, etc.) these remind me that He's in charge of how he communicates with us. I mean, it is His word after all. I don't try to read too much into the specifics lest I get lost in them, If I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the significance of the bush verses the donkey for instance I think I could end up blathering on for quite a while, and in the end have nothing good to show for it, not good for me or anyone else.
I remember once in the old days someone in leadership made a deragetory remark about "red letter christianity." I never heard the incident that led to that remark, But considering the times, I think that it's a real possibility that they were blowing off some good reproof to their own detriment. Over the last few years the topics that I've dealt with seem to have brought the things the Lord said in the gospels a lot closer; in terms of my understanding; to the things taught in the epistles. I certainly don't consider them separatly anymore; but together.
Hi nero
I hope you don't toss speaking in tounges because I believe that it's scriptural and good. It sounds like nobody ever helped you get to the point where there was no longer any question in your mind about them. The same goes for interpretation of tounges and prophecy. One of the jobs of the ministry was to help God's people recieve these things, and when I hear anybody say that they never felt quite right about it I DON'T THINK BADLY ABOUT THEM, but I feel badly that something that is plainly scriptural never became real for them. I guess this is what I would like to share with you too coolchef.
hi year2027,
You know what is the most challenging thing for me to deal with? It's not believing that God would reveal the truth to anyone who is seeking the truth, because that's just a question of believing that GOD'S NOT A LIAR. It's sorting out the differing doctrines of everybody that claims to be taught by God on a particular topic. That depends on the PERSON telling the truth. If they're lying that could either be deliberatly or simple ignorance. God doesn't lie, people lie.
Even with being taught on how the scripture interprets itself I feel that I need all the grace and mercy I can get to even appreciate what the SCRIPTURES are saying. I definatly hold on to the concept of the scriptures interpreting themselves, but a few of the details have changed for me in terms of how to apply that concept. I've had to change some of the things I've learned in the classes, but I still hold on to a lot of it as it was taught. And most importantly for me, the changes I've been compelled to make in my thinking of the scripture I am more confident in because of learning how the scripture interprets itself. If I've changed a few things I can document the changes in my thinking by what's written, and I learned HOW TO DO THAT IN THE CLASSES.
If I've tweeked a few things incorrectly I hope God will correct me just as plainly as I'm willing to share them.
Take care y'all. I'm looking forward to more fellowship withyou. :3 purrr (thanks for clueing me in on that nero.)
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year2027
God first
Beloved Nero
God loves you my dear friend
its easy if you got the interpretation or prophesy you were not pretended to be God but letting God use you like a tool
I know what your getting at but God knows our hearts and he understands us better than we do ourself
if like a young girl putting on her mother shoe's and plays like she is mom because she wants to be like her mother so must
that is how God see's it nothing wrong and its not Blasphemy but its just us trying to be like him
Hell that what he wants us to do is try to be like him
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Oakspear
I guess if you really believed you were channelling a message from God, then you had to ahve been doing God's will, doing da werd, right?
Now if you were making it up...
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waysider
I wouldn't worry about it, Nero.
Think about all the leaders who could supposedly see a debul spirt hiding under a flat rock 3 counties away.
Or maybe this:
"Thou shalt leave MY state before the sun sets tomorrow or face the wrath of God!"
<_<
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irisheyes
Come on, you're kidding, right? Like the sheriff or somethin?
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waysider
Nope. No joke.
There were people in Fellow Laborers who were rousted out of bed in the middle of the night and given this directive.
Imagine being in the middle of rural Ohio with very little money and a car that ain't worth a poop and being told you better clear the state line before the sun went down.
We had people from Ohio, Penn., Virginia, Kansas, New York, New Jersey, Texas, California, etc.
This same type of thing happened in the way corps, probably even more so because the corps was so much bigger.
We weren't allowed to ask questions or discuss it.
We had to carry on as if the person never existed.
Anyway, after seeing some of that stuff happen, I don't think God will hold it against us if we were wrong about "believer's meetings".
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bliss
Well, Nero, this is one of the topics that I questioned before leaving TWI. I got the evil eye for sure.
"IF" SIT and Int is still real for today( I am not sure now, but don't know), then,
why when interpreting was it a message to US????? It was supposed to be ''magnifiying GOD"
not ourselves.
So, ya, maybe it is blasphemy in a weird way.
Personally, I think it was definately done wrong.
It should of sounded like this: " You are awesome, God, worthy to be praised, holy, and just........."
not, ''my little children, just know that you are beloved in my sight, and I know all the hairs on your head''.....
If the first centrury believers heard the apostles speaking ''the wonderful works of God', and MAGNIFY GOD' , then it wouldn't of been about themselves.
Keep it up with your questions, that is how you release the bondage....
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JeffSjo
Hi Nero, I hope you're making progress with your seeking answers to you unsettling thoughts. I have no doubt in my mind that wondering whether or not we're speaking truth in any setting is a good question, perhaps one we'd all be better off thinking about after we've speaking.
My best answer to your question is that we are not blashpheming when we're speaking by the spirit of God as His word teaches. Everybody that spoke the scriptures into existence by the spirit of God spoke for him too.
There is a lot about what you were taught in terms of practice that I don't know because I wasn't there. Since my days with twi I've tweeked a few of the details but nothing's changed my mind that these manifestations are scriptural and a really GOOD thing when done with a heart that's seeking to love God's people.
I hope things are well with you.
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Nero
First - sorry if I don't make much sense right now. My blood sugar is so low I think I'm about to faint! But I wanted to reply before I went to lunch.
Thanks for the replies! :3 Yes, sometimes I do find myself going: Oh crap! What did I do again? And hoping that I didn't do something incredibly wrong. But I am slowly coming wading through this stuff and this place has been a great help.
I can't remember where we were taught to translate when we were speaking in tongues. Even though I was a part of TWI most of my life - it seems after I left there was this giant shut-off valve and I forgot some of the scriptures (if there ever were any to begin with) that backed this stuff up. Anyone have an answer?
Interpreting and all that seems more natural if I put it from my perspective... sort of like: "God loves you, blah blah blah!" not "I the Lord thy God loves you! Blah blah!" Although I guess it's not bad to do it both ways?
Roy, I remember Preacher getting ....ed off at you for speaking in tongues and interpreting by yourself. I think I saw a thread where you mentioned doing just that. I could be wrong! Even if you did - I don't think you were wrong for doing it. But I was wondering if there is anything in the bible against it? I remember people in TWI reacting the same way Preacher did if I mentioned doing it by myself. I couldn't remember if that was just something VP or CM said.
I do know that it made practicing very difficult. And when I couldn't say anything different because I didn't have practice people would get upset at me some more hehe.
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George Aar
One wonders why you'd have to "practice" something that was a "God-given ability".
But, then I do wonder about a lot of that stuff...
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coolchef
i think it was and is alot of bunk
i always felt like a phoney doing it
guess i just wasn't
spirtual enough
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Nero
I remember someone saying speaking in tongues or quoting scripture over and over was like a mantra of sorts (can't remember who) but it helps clear your head because you can't think of something while you are doing it. Was that the peaceful feeling I used to get?
I keep trying to figure out if I want to keep SIT or toss it. I still wonder about it. If the feeling I'm trying to bring up is peacefulnes - maybe I should try another religion's chants? At least then it would be in a real language and not something I'm just doing?
Very true. I guess I felt like I needed to practice because it didn't feel natual at all. Speaking in tongues seemed more natural - because it required no thought. Like speaking jibberish. Is it jibberish? I'm trying to figure that out too.
Me too.
It seemed like the interpretation required some thought... because it's not like I could just start talking in a language I understood and claim to be God without feeling like it was forced. It always felt weird when I did it... like a feeling of anxiety would roll over me. It was never a blessing to me really.
So confuzzled.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Nero
God loves you my dear friend
Why people like the Way fools and "Preacher are getting ....ed off at me for speaking in tongues and interpreting by myself" because they read into these verses things that are not there
1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
they over read this verse thinking this is for all times but its only for when I am in a group to keep order but while I and you are alone is another matter
I learn alone and in groups so tongues can teach me alone but while in a church I do not want to stray all day until everybody spoken
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Nero
Ah, now I remember - now that you showed it to me of course! XP I can't believe I forgot that.
That is a neat way of thinking of it - to keep things in order while in a group... but if there is just one person - what if there is no group to speak to? Some people would never get to enjoy that then?
Thanks for showing me that Roy. =)
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waysider
Hi Nero
I still speak in tongues silently.
I find it it be an effective way to clear my mind and refocus.
Here's an example:
I'm sitting in the dentist's chair and the pain is intense. I start to speak in tongues to myself, not as a prayer or anything like that.
I find that it tricks my mind into ignoring the pain.
That's enough reason right there for me to keep it.
I do think, however, that TWI was very wrong in what they taught about ALL of the so-called "manifestations".
But-----That's just my opinion.
OK--- Now it's my turn to feel silly.
What the heck are XP and :3?
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irisheyes
WS: You need to find a dentist who will give you the gas.
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waysider
Actually, my current dentist is quite good.
I've also used this during local surgical procedures with good results.
Another time I use it is when I find I have misplaced something.
It seems to help me clear out distractions so I can recall where I left the sought after object.
Again, not a Biblical application but useful none the less.
Now as to TIP, I think the Way's teachings were waaaaaaaaay off the mark.
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Nero
XP = is a different form of this: =P It's like squinting your eyes and sticking your tongue out. Sort of liking giggling.
:3 = kitty face.
:3 purrrrr!
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JeffSjo
Hi guys, I enjoy reading your postings.
One of the things that was tweeked for me over the last few years was realizing that the way leadership structured these manifestations during twig in the old days was too mechanical if you will. What I mean by that is that in general they were too structured. The best possible reason for that I can think of is fear of something going wrong. If leadership was more confident of people being loving and orderly why have it so structured? Looking back on it, seems more like a lack of confidence in their ability to deal with things or a lack of confidence in God's people.
The worst I've seen is that the control of the manifestations was used to keep down some things that I believe God wanted said, and that needed to be said. Think about it, "EXORTATION TO A MORE WORTHY ENDEAVOR" can pretty pointed. (that is a quote of the old expanded translation in the old intermediate class of the word "exhortation" from 1 co 14) It means acknowledging that what you're doing may not be worthy. I've had leadership say I was out of order because these things shouldn't step on their toes. My answer was that 'it was the truth'.
I know that at times they seemed like they were milktoast over the years too. And its clear to me that when you read in God's word about their effect on people that some hearts were suppose to be pierced and probably some darkness revealed too. All for the good of everyone present too, not just because someone was trying to make a name for themselves; which can be a false accusation too if it's used for controling God's people.
Even now after reading it for the first time I have to agree that the bible doesn't "SAY" that you can't do it at all if you're alone. You've given me something to think about there 2027.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Nero and JeffSjo and others
God loves you all my dear friends
I am glad you enjoy that and that I gave you some thing to think about
but let me add
The great fool that love to lie to us told us tongues and interpretation were not done in Old Testament times
but VPW was wrong
Is not a tongue a language?
yes
Is not the most basic language done by pictures?
yes art on cave walls
So a dream is a lot of pictures put together?
a dream could be call a tongue or language
and if you do not understand the dream or vision its becomes a unknown language
if it can be given a interpretation than you have interpretation of a unknown language the dream
Gen 37:5 And Joseph dreamed a dream, and he told it his brethren: and they hated him yet the more.
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;
will you know the rest of the story
hope you enjoy
and yes there were tongues with interpreter in old times so that was not the greater thing
the greater thing is Christ in you as a seed of hope
you do not need to look for Christ coming because he has enter your heart like old times people or people without Christ
we look for our day of change
thank you
with love and holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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JeffSjo
hi nero, this is jeffsjo,
On my last posting I was running out of time and emotional and I wanted to supply a couple of scriptures that you asked for because without scripture its all guess work and with scripture, it's still a lot to deal with.
1 cor 14:5 This is a very plainly stated exhortation to do a good thing.
1 co 14:12 I've never seen it be REALLY good when the heart was more about self than about the good of the entire congregation.
1 cor 14:25 This is the verse that convinces me it's not allways going to be sugar and spice. It seems to me this is more about heart issues. I suspect that when the ministry was breaking up in the old days that we could have used more "1 cor 14:8" and less milktoast. But it's God Word, He's the one that will judge. I have to attest to that I believe there was more available from God in these manifestations than was generally sought after by God's people or allowed by leadership. To tell you the truth when I think of these manifestations I think in terms of spiritual warfare(drumbeats and all) and not milktoast. Of course when I read some of the sweet things in the epistle of 1 john I end up thinking in terms of warfare too, sweet isn't necessarily milktoast.
Hi year2027,
Your observation was entirely new to me and I'm just starting to consider it, but I'd have to be
extremely convinced by scripture that "interpretation of tounges" wasn't entirely focused on things spoken by the tounge. While it does seem obvious that the word "interpretation" all by its self with no relation to the manifestation of speaking in tounges can be interpretation of anything you want it to be. But once again you've given me something to chew on.
God bless you guys and hope things are well with you.
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irisheyes
Couldn't it be that God had no other way to communicate with the Old Testament guys but dreams or speaking out loud, like the burning bush, the donkey, etc. I never thought about interpretation being tied with tongues in the OT. I thought the "manifestations" were for the Body of Christ which wasn't around back then. To edify the body? If that's wrong, that's a mind blower. Certainly worth another look ....
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year2027
God first
Beloved JeffSjo and irisheyes
God loves you my dear friends
JeffSjo -- yes there is a lot to think about or in other words put the question straight to God or his son Jesus Christ for a spiritual answer because you have asked with faith that God will guide to truth because like Jesus Christ taught some one must teach us and I believe that some one Christ in us the gift of holy spirit
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
who gave Philip the words no one but the holy spirit and who should we trust five senses works of reasearch that can lie or the gift within you that can not lie
VPW said check tongues against written scripture but I say boldly check your understanding of written scripture against the Christ in you
irisheyes -- could it be VPW needed to find something greater but the greater is Holy Spirit overshowering -v- holy spirit within
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
I know these verses say that the tithe is a carnal law but it all so talks about a changed
the greatest changed is from looking forward to Jesus Christ first coming to Christ resting in your heart as Christ in you hope of glory
but what are tongues for lets look at the first time they are used in New Testament times
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
to receive power and knowledge is power - in Old Testament times dreams gave Joseph knowledge that gave him power and made him a witness of the truth
Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
God spoke by the mouth of David in old testament times the gift of God overshowering David
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
something or some one came from heaven and enter these men
the return of Christ to enter their hearts the second coming which does not mean there not going to be a third coming or complete coming
Christ in us hope of glory
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
in their own language - the wonderful works of God they heard otherwise a teaching that show them God's love by spoken word from men receiving knowledge by the holy spirit
just some things to think about
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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irisheyes
roy, I think sometimes I forget to just go to the Word and re-read it. On Pentecost their tongues were understood. How cool that must have been. How often I forget to keep things simple. Thanks!
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JeffSjo
Hi guys, this is jeffsjo and I hope things are going well with you guys
Hi irisheyes, check out Heb 1:1,2
These verses are loaded with information about how God communicated with his folks throughout time. In spite of all the different ways he communicated (burning bush,talking foot, or still small voice, etc.) these remind me that He's in charge of how he communicates with us. I mean, it is His word after all. I don't try to read too much into the specifics lest I get lost in them, If I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the significance of the bush verses the donkey for instance I think I could end up blathering on for quite a while, and in the end have nothing good to show for it, not good for me or anyone else.
I remember once in the old days someone in leadership made a deragetory remark about "red letter christianity." I never heard the incident that led to that remark, But considering the times, I think that it's a real possibility that they were blowing off some good reproof to their own detriment. Over the last few years the topics that I've dealt with seem to have brought the things the Lord said in the gospels a lot closer; in terms of my understanding; to the things taught in the epistles. I certainly don't consider them separatly anymore; but together.
Hi nero
I hope you don't toss speaking in tounges because I believe that it's scriptural and good. It sounds like nobody ever helped you get to the point where there was no longer any question in your mind about them. The same goes for interpretation of tounges and prophecy. One of the jobs of the ministry was to help God's people recieve these things, and when I hear anybody say that they never felt quite right about it I DON'T THINK BADLY ABOUT THEM, but I feel badly that something that is plainly scriptural never became real for them. I guess this is what I would like to share with you too coolchef.
hi year2027,
You know what is the most challenging thing for me to deal with? It's not believing that God would reveal the truth to anyone who is seeking the truth, because that's just a question of believing that GOD'S NOT A LIAR. It's sorting out the differing doctrines of everybody that claims to be taught by God on a particular topic. That depends on the PERSON telling the truth. If they're lying that could either be deliberatly or simple ignorance. God doesn't lie, people lie.
Even with being taught on how the scripture interprets itself I feel that I need all the grace and mercy I can get to even appreciate what the SCRIPTURES are saying. I definatly hold on to the concept of the scriptures interpreting themselves, but a few of the details have changed for me in terms of how to apply that concept. I've had to change some of the things I've learned in the classes, but I still hold on to a lot of it as it was taught. And most importantly for me, the changes I've been compelled to make in my thinking of the scripture I am more confident in because of learning how the scripture interprets itself. If I've changed a few things I can document the changes in my thinking by what's written, and I learned HOW TO DO THAT IN THE CLASSES.
If I've tweeked a few things incorrectly I hope God will correct me just as plainly as I'm willing to share them.
Take care y'all. I'm looking forward to more fellowship withyou. :3 purrr (thanks for clueing me in on that nero.)
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