When peoplle who are impacted by it do not remain silent about it, and are not silenced by M&A actions aimed at silencing them.
It remains uncertain what the outcome of my endeavors in this regard will be, so I have not walked away yet.
What Fence? means that even though there may be divisions among believers, I know that God honours each one's believing, and we are free to share whatever we are comfortable sharing with each other.
Deception cannot, in my opinion be adequately confronted while remaining within the confines of TWI.
I'm not talking about small-time, one-on-one issues, but the over-arching big-picture (I like hyphens this morning :D-->) issues that plague TWI.
There are several reasons for this
1. The "leadership" community of TWI believes that they are the God-inspired arbiters of what is true and what is not, doctrinally and practically. Questioning the veracity of integrity of "leaders" becomes an offense and even a sin.
Even when the pressure and control tactics are lessened, this ex cathedra world-view is still there.
While some are using this mind-set to manipulate others, many "leaders"actually believe that this is true and godly.
2. There is a culture of "cover your own foot" is the upper echelons. The judge in the Allen lawsuit cited testimony that indicated that Rivenbark at least knew of Martindale's womanizing for at least five years. Admitting any errors is not in their best interest, legally or in the context of maintaining power.
3. TWI's core doctrine's promote an us vs. them view of everything. Questioning or confronting puts you firmly in the them camp.
Many people have tried to confront doctrinal error, practical error, and abuses over the years. Some of those worked on a small, fellowship based problems, while others attacked the problems right in New Knoxville. Not a few of those people post here. I tried in my own small way.
Can anyone thing of one person who has succeeded?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
If removal of practice of deception involves meekness to admit error and make good things of the past then my answer would be NO. How many of us in our own way, some large scale to the higher ups like yourself Fresh, and some to their local to state to region folks have confronted and saw nothing in return but the same ole haughty arrogance and morsels tossed our way to appease us.
They are no closer to God?s heart today than they were a few years ago when this real legalist move started with LCM. They just learned a new cover for it is all. And if removed it stinks just as badly.
The ole twi saying "what is the profit" does ring true here I think, for them to really change would be godly and that don?t fit into their plan, they are too committed now...no turning back for them.
And I am not limiting God in that, I am just looking at the proof already lived in the top echelon and very comfortable for them.
"Acts 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done."
This is one of the differences between PFAL and WAP. There are no more teachings on how leadership could be wrong. We ceased saying the will of the Lord be done with WAP.
It's hard to confront deception when leadership thinks it has all the answers. Leadership thinks it has the market on truth.
I believe it cannot be confronted within the confines of TWI (as Oak pointed out)
Out in the world working I see deception as well. I worked in a hospital that was doing a questionable service "electric shock treatment"
Many states abandoned it years ago. But we have it.
Each time the hospital does it they get $5,000.00 from medi-care. So, they do it often and PUSH it on people that have no business getting it.
One day they brought in an older lady who had been beaten and raped. She was in the wound center because her beatings left her black and blue. One of OUR promoters was there and pushed her to come into the pysc ward for depression. While there, they wanted to SHOCK her.
The HEAD nurse and myself KNEW this was wrong. If the older lady was not depressed something would be wrong with her(having been through this crime). And being depressed about being beaten and raped does not mean she suffered from clinical depression.
There were many situations like this. The HEAD nurse and I did confront them about all the saftey issues which included this therapy. (A woman died being shocked, because they did not test her heart first.) We were let go, then we fought back through OSHA.
There was no way to "reason" with the powers-that-be because they were sold out to the system.
Once OUTSIDE the system, we were able to reach reasonable people and we WERE heard and ACTION was taken.
Very good replies. I know where people have gone through the proper channels to point out or question something taught by TWI. The HFC agrees that it is error and then sends the information to the BC who justifies the TWI position and it goes no further. Several times the BC and even once the RC never even commented on the study or the question.
They just absolutely refuse to admit that anything is wrong; heck, they won't even say that maybe something could/should be taught better or clearer.
Deception, imo, has been more than adequately confronted, but not inside TWI. It can't. People are forbidden from hearing the other side of the story. They are threatened with loss of God's protection and therefore scared to even consider that there's another side to the story. It's when people get fed up with being in the dark that they start looking for answers where ever they can and that's when they learn about the deception. A lot of the times it's right here at GSpot that people finally start seeing the depth of deception.
If we could just get the information to the people who are in and in such a way as to make it easy for them to receive it.....
Yes it can be confronted but is one willing to accept the consequences ? Though if a person is still "in" then expulsion from TWI is a distinct possibility. Unless one is prepared for that then its usually more convenient to keep quiet and maintain the act until a safe
departure can be made.
TWI implemented the concept of "likemindedness"
to rein in those who might be unruly or unwilling to accept the will of the leaders.
Furthermore it gave them a (faux) biblical basis upon which to justify the mark and avoid
tag applied to those uncomfortable or
unsatisfied with TWI's version of existence.
But one need not engage in outright confrontation to get M&Aed - just asking straight up questions about hot topics such as the distribution of abundant sharing could get you into deep,deep trouble. And if you persisted you were typically shown
the door without hesitation.
I expect that many of those still in sense
problems with the TWI's spin on the events
surrounding LCM's probation and departure.
But they are used to be fed half truths
and incomplete information so its easier to
take what they give you and suppress the instincts that are telling you that there is
more to the story than you are being told.
Each has to reach their own bulls***t threshold
before they've had enough. In my opinion
TWI is lying machine with no off switch. It will continue to pump out half truths, lies, twisted versions of reality, anything it has to in order to keep the few remaining members
In my observations and experiences of dealing with different leadership, they lie to cover up whatever they want without any sense of remorse. It's hard to confront people when they don't own up to their wrongdoings.
Just like John R.'s letter to rosie. She never answered his questions, and she skirted around the issues.
Kindness is the oil that takes the friction out of life.
Can deception be adequately confronted? To me, that question has two different answers. From a personal perspective and from an organizational perspective. The organizational perspective is much "cleaner" to determine.
From a personal perspective, one has to ask "Have I done what I must in order to confront the issue?". If the answer is ?yes? then that would be "adequate" on a personal level. If I judge that I have passed the reasonable man test, then the blood is on the other party's head and hands. Pontius Pilate, move over and make room. I am sitting down.
However, on a practical basis if an organization has no MEANS in place to address such an issue, one would have to wonder which of the two answers are true (and neither is very pretty):
1. The Organization denies deception is possible. If the organization doesn't CARE about stopping deception, then there will be no mechanism in place to do so. (Which, with TWI, at the top, there is not). After 50 years of people getting "possessed", Mark and Avoid policies, summary dismissals, etc... One would have to conclude that the organization RECOGNIZES the POSSIBILITY that LOWER people can be deceived. Since the aforementioned issues HAVE arisen, one must conclude that the organization IN FACT DENIES the possibility of deception permeating the highest levels. If this is so, then how do the ?Fog Years? get explained by the top people?? I thought they were deceived at that time?
2. The Organization Does Not Require a Formal Means for Dealing with Deception because it is not a routine occurrence. If this were true, then it would mean that TWI top people have actually found a way to ESCAPE this world and our fleshly condition. I know they say it is called renewing the mind?. But if you believe that you only have to renew your mind once and it is forever clean in that area? then you have just told me that you are already deceived and in a high-minded form of denial.
So no matter which way you slice it? TWI has been remiss by implementing any internal mechanism to deal with this OBVIOUS problems that HAVE ALREADY occured AT THE VERY TOP. They are in extreme denial about reality and human nature and are trying to ascend to ?God? status thinking they are above deception.
So no. Deception can NOT be adequately confronted from within given the fact that organization is over 50 years old... In PRACTICE, they have shown their belief? deception does not exist. Very sad state of affairs.
You can NEVER confront a drug addict about his problem until he believes he has one. From their point of view, they do not have a problem.
What if the deception is intentional and done with full knowledge?
Dontcha think is is possible, if not likely, that TWI's BOD and other top leaders are in the business of deception?
Isn't is possible, that it is not so much that they don't believe that deception exists( certainly they must) but that their denial of it is just another intentional part of the deception itself.
I find it very difficult to believe that Rosie and gang actually do not believe that they have a problem.
It seems much more likely to me that they are just rotten to the core and that that they know it. These folks are frauds and cons IMO. Unlike the alcoholic who does not really know he has a problem, the con and the fraud uses deception as one of the main tools in his bag of tricks.
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on March 07, 2003 at 18:12.]
It is impossible to reason with a dictatorship, plain & simple. The only hope that twi would have is to have more of a democracy. Until that time, forget it.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The really pathetic thing is that these leaders are 100% convinced that they are the God life line.
Goey: This topic struck a nerve with me because I am a business owner and have been to court and have a respect for what meets the reasonable man test. TWI does not.
You focused on MOTIVE, I focused on MEANS. Together, they create a 1,2 punch that is very damning.
It is always more difficult to PROVE motives of the heart. I am sure there are innies that would not even CONSIDER what you propose... that their Board of Trustees are cons, rotten to the core?. They just won?t consider it. The fact that you offer a ?likely explanation? does not mean it will be received as such by innies. And that is ?Damn Sad? all by itself.
On the other hand, a reasonable (read: responsible) company would have ALREADY acted and put measures in place to protect against what has happened at the top, regardless of motive? simply based upopn the OUTCOME ... but they have not done so?
If I was running a company and let corporate secrets out of the bag so that insider trading could take place, I would be fired and convicted when caught. There are laws on the books to prevent such a scenario. Why? Because there is enough past history to show there are OTHER problems created that damage the company and market FAR more than the $$ that resulted from the inside trade.
The problems that came as a result of allowing LCM to do some insider wife trading? or other ?insider? things? was MUCH more damaging to the organization at many levels and should never have been allowed to continue by the Board of Trustees. Wall Street and the Securities and Exchange Commission have procedures in place whenever they see insider trading because they know that such secret, forbidden fruit results in EXPONENTIAL damages? and it does not take 50 years to figure out stuff like this?. Any responsible person knows that human nature has not changed? people will cheat. People will deceive. Wall Street figured it out, but TWI hasn?t figured it out, yet.
One thing is for sure, the leaders of TWI are unfit to run the organization... regardless if they are the two-bit cons or if they are the irresponsible people that I claim them to be...
There is no organizational clout within that would empower ?followers? to come forward and demand that the Board of Trustees (BOT) actually BECOME RESPONSIBLE and require that they do things in the best interests of the followers. The BOT have never put in place ANY mechanism that creates a responsibility to its members? there is no membership, you can not join TWI, legally. There is no means to do so.
By any corporate standard, the BOT have shown themselves to be, in the face of every past crisis - incompetent. By some measures, they might prove to be shrewd operators, and by other means - .they may very well prove to be ? criminals in a court of law.
In the mean time, I have little hope that they will ever get to the real matters of the heart that you or I raise, Goey. And deception is always a matter of the heart.
I would put money down that you could trace a streak as wide as a 8 lane LA freeway through the history of TWI showing all the little half truths and mostly trues that were told over the years. I know I have seen some of them.
The problem that I see is justifying it instead of correcting it. I don't see it as much of a stretch and it has been discussed here before that they think lying in the name of God is ok. I know for a fact because a top national leader was confronted for being dishonest and she EXPLAINED WHY IT WAS OK!!!!!!! Right before my very eyes. This was paid salary waycorps well before they went full time. I was too stupid to see it for what it was.
UUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH -- yet another charlie brown miss at a field goal for me....
Would it be a stretch to document the following:
-they don't think underlings are mature enough to handle the "deeper" things of the ministry
- David acted crazy (lied) to escape the king - therefore we can lie too when needed
- the new testament minister is the ot king and has all the priveledges and "flexibility" the king had
-their thought that lying be revelation happened all the time in the ot
Remember that line from the movie Ben Hur? All the slaves rowing to the beat of the drum, chained to the oars... and the BAM !@! The ship gets broad-sided by another vessel and starts to sink. Then the slave (Ben Hur) escapes and saves the captain on a floating piece of wreckage...
Nice movie. Good parallel to the current innies... Everyone has to wonder and work out for themselves if they are going to be the "Ben Hur" or just a hapless slave.
There is nothing that guarantees there will be a Ben Hur outcome where some ?lowly? person gets to "Save" the President of TWI... given that everyone is willing to go down with the ship or is chained to it... then the BEST THING that could happen would be to hear...
RAMMING SPEED!!
And let the resulting CRASH be the deciding factor that helps sort everything out. A sudden impact would be better than dragging out the slow demise of this fiasco masquerading as a ministry and to watch fine people whither as they row with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and might? who are slaves that exist ONLY to give power to the ship.
You have the best ?sociopathic empathy?, that money can be conned for, actively in evidence from the BOD Collective in the Borg Hive up in Ohio.
Now all you need is about 4 years in order to effectively clone a Joe Average (with a big calling from God) into an obedient Corp, of various numerical designation, in order to extend the ?eyes and ears? of church all the way to the rank and filers that so desperately need oversight in such things as finances, checkbooks, monetary planning, giving of money, tithing and of course abundant sharing.
With these glassy eyed robots knowing so much and yet not knowing their holes from an *** which standeth upon the ground, the bottom line of control are these faithful Borg Corp that will carry out both the ?heart and letter? of any edict that the BOD can define to them all with more than enough KJV in verse decoupaged to it.
The undercurrent has always been the same at TWI, it?s all about giving them money for anything that pertains to the wisdom that they panhandle from the tithing podium. And using anyone willing to faithfully stand for that bottom line.
Anyone that has opposed them, and is exposed to be doing such, will be branded as possessed, lied about, and have their characters slandered, and then will be banned from attending fellowships. Only this time the ones that will doing the banning and slandering will be smiling and not spitting. Only difference.
The practical ?graces? to which we hear accounts of, and as attested to by ?verbal ones? still in attendance, sometimes implies the assumption that this is a ?doctrinal change?. Not so. TWI has not introduced teachings as a ?replacement doctrine? to justify the ?gentleness? to which they enslave people now days, by.
They are just not ?acting? upon the doctrine they have in place and no doubt choose to keep BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT REPLACED IT.
But they will eventually start to use it, the overwhelming lust to beat a willing slave seems to abate itself but for a season.
They just proved the adage that LCM missed in his godlike opiate delusion: you can enslave all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can not enslave all of the people all of the time and still bilk them for money.
His passion to play chief fascist must have blinded him to that reality and caused him to misstep.
But he had such a qualified Board of Trustees that advised, and approved, and lauded all of his actions (until the Civil and Criminal Courts became involved)? how could he have so miss stepped?
quote:There is nothing that guarantees there will be a Ben Hur outcome where some ?lowly? person gets to "Save" the President of TWI... given that everyone is willing to go down with the ship or is chained to it... then the BEST THING that could happen would be to hear...
RAMMING SPEED!!
I agree, if TWI is to sink it most likely needs to be from a direct and fatal hit. They can dodge and absorb a few minor blows forever.
Even if all of the followers stopped giving their ABS or even if there were no followers, the BOD and core insiders would still be in control of about 65 million in cash and other assets. They would still be in high cotton.
The only thing that I see that could really take TWI down for the count, would be a successful class action suit for fraud and for rackeetering. Once the civil suit was successful the State and the Feds could mop up with the criminal charges and convicions, and the court could order a disolvement of the corporation - something like what happened Jim Baaker and the PTL Club.
I have heard rumors of a class action suit, but that was about a year or so ago. Nothing seems to have come if it. I don't know if the ex-TWI community could become organized or focused enough to actually put one together. It would not be easy.
Short of a class action suit or someting like it, I see nothing else that could do it. But then, maybe there is something that I do not see.
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What Fence?
Fresh,
It's great someone who cares is reading my posts.
I believe deception can adequately be exposed.
When peoplle who are impacted by it do not remain silent about it, and are not silenced by M&A actions aimed at silencing them.
It remains uncertain what the outcome of my endeavors in this regard will be, so I have not walked away yet.
What Fence? means that even though there may be divisions among believers, I know that God honours each one's believing, and we are free to share whatever we are comfortable sharing with each other.
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FreshAir 99
What Fence?
Thanks for qualifying your position.
How many hundreds have gone before.... and were silenced via M&A? Or, lawsuits that have been settled out of court -- preventing further exposure?
Deceptive tactics? Of course.
:D-->
Is twi releasing their grip? Begrudgingly, only a little -- and don't raise a stink, or else!
;)-->
Fresh
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Oakspear
Deception cannot, in my opinion be adequately confronted while remaining within the confines of TWI.
I'm not talking about small-time, one-on-one issues, but the over-arching big-picture (I like hyphens this morning
:D-->) issues that plague TWI.
There are several reasons for this
1. The "leadership" community of TWI believes that they are the God-inspired arbiters of what is true and what is not, doctrinally and practically. Questioning the veracity of integrity of "leaders" becomes an offense and even a sin.
Even when the pressure and control tactics are lessened, this ex cathedra world-view is still there.
While some are using this mind-set to manipulate others, many "leaders"actually believe that this is true and godly.
2. There is a culture of "cover your own foot" is the upper echelons. The judge in the Allen lawsuit cited testimony that indicated that Rivenbark at least knew of Martindale's womanizing for at least five years. Admitting any errors is not in their best interest, legally or in the context of maintaining power.
3. TWI's core doctrine's promote an us vs. them view of everything. Questioning or confronting puts you firmly in the them camp.
Many people have tried to confront doctrinal error, practical error, and abuses over the years. Some of those worked on a small, fellowship based problems, while others attacked the problems right in New Knoxville. Not a few of those people post here. I tried in my own small way.
Can anyone thing of one person who has succeeded?
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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ChattyKathy
If removal of practice of deception involves meekness to admit error and make good things of the past then my answer would be NO. How many of us in our own way, some large scale to the higher ups like yourself Fresh, and some to their local to state to region folks have confronted and saw nothing in return but the same ole haughty arrogance and morsels tossed our way to appease us.
They are no closer to God?s heart today than they were a few years ago when this real legalist move started with LCM. They just learned a new cover for it is all. And if removed it stinks just as badly.
The ole twi saying "what is the profit" does ring true here I think, for them to really change would be godly and that don?t fit into their plan, they are too committed now...no turning back for them.
And I am not limiting God in that, I am just looking at the proof already lived in the top echelon and very comfortable for them.
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Tumbleweed Kid
Quote King James
"Acts 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done."
This is one of the differences between PFAL and WAP. There are no more teachings on how leadership could be wrong. We ceased saying the will of the Lord be done with WAP.
It's hard to confront deception when leadership thinks it has all the answers. Leadership thinks it has the market on truth.
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Dot Matrix
Great Topic
Good answers
I believe it cannot be confronted within the confines of TWI (as Oak pointed out)
Out in the world working I see deception as well. I worked in a hospital that was doing a questionable service "electric shock treatment"
Many states abandoned it years ago. But we have it.
Each time the hospital does it they get $5,000.00 from medi-care. So, they do it often and PUSH it on people that have no business getting it.
One day they brought in an older lady who had been beaten and raped. She was in the wound center because her beatings left her black and blue. One of OUR promoters was there and pushed her to come into the pysc ward for depression. While there, they wanted to SHOCK her.
The HEAD nurse and myself KNEW this was wrong. If the older lady was not depressed something would be wrong with her(having been through this crime). And being depressed about being beaten and raped does not mean she suffered from clinical depression.
There were many situations like this. The HEAD nurse and I did confront them about all the saftey issues which included this therapy. (A woman died being shocked, because they did not test her heart first.) We were let go, then we fought back through OSHA.
There was no way to "reason" with the powers-that-be because they were sold out to the system.
Once OUTSIDE the system, we were able to reach reasonable people and we WERE heard and ACTION was taken.
I feel the same way about TWI.
Dot Matrix
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mj412
How does one avoid the threat if not the actual doing of M@A?
For me it left God and Spirit so removed I just didnt want to play anymore.
I needed to Trust something more than their word for the situations I was involved in... you state you were able to do GODS WORD while in Fresh Air.
Problem was they didnt like it when I did.
I was attracted to the fellowship of folks who wanted to serve God together .
When I was doubting my own decsions on a daily level I didnt want to be involved anymore...
I was afraid of the confrontation or to weak I am not sure which came first.
it was NOT in the least worth the fight, with those that I chose to Love and Jesus Christ asked me to serve.
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WaywardWayfer
Very good replies. I know where people have gone through the proper channels to point out or question something taught by TWI. The HFC agrees that it is error and then sends the information to the BC who justifies the TWI position and it goes no further. Several times the BC and even once the RC never even commented on the study or the question.
They just absolutely refuse to admit that anything is wrong; heck, they won't even say that maybe something could/should be taught better or clearer.
Deception, imo, has been more than adequately confronted, but not inside TWI. It can't. People are forbidden from hearing the other side of the story. They are threatened with loss of God's protection and therefore scared to even consider that there's another side to the story. It's when people get fed up with being in the dark that they start looking for answers where ever they can and that's when they learn about the deception. A lot of the times it's right here at GSpot that people finally start seeing the depth of deception.
If we could just get the information to the people who are in and in such a way as to make it easy for them to receive it.....
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Goey
Also consider that TWI's corporate structure is such that only a handful of people, being the deceivers themsleves, control everyting.
There is no process by which these deceicvers can be removed from their positions and be replaced with honest ones.
Hoping to change TWI from the inside is noble, but is still an act of futility.
Goey
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ex10
Seems to me the answer to the question is obviously a resounding "NO."
Just a cursory look at the history of TWI proves that point, over and over again.
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Hope R.
Look what happened to us when John honestly tried to confront deception - and he did it quite adequately IMO.
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diazbro
Yes it can be confronted but is one willing to accept the consequences ? Though if a person is still "in" then expulsion from TWI is a distinct possibility. Unless one is prepared for that then its usually more convenient to keep quiet and maintain the act until a safe
departure can be made.
TWI implemented the concept of "likemindedness"
to rein in those who might be unruly or unwilling to accept the will of the leaders.
Furthermore it gave them a (faux) biblical basis upon which to justify the mark and avoid
tag applied to those uncomfortable or
unsatisfied with TWI's version of existence.
But one need not engage in outright confrontation to get M&Aed - just asking straight up questions about hot topics such as the distribution of abundant sharing could get you into deep,deep trouble. And if you persisted you were typically shown
the door without hesitation.
I expect that many of those still in sense
problems with the TWI's spin on the events
surrounding LCM's probation and departure.
But they are used to be fed half truths
and incomplete information so its easier to
take what they give you and suppress the instincts that are telling you that there is
more to the story than you are being told.
Each has to reach their own bulls***t threshold
before they've had enough. In my opinion
TWI is lying machine with no off switch. It will continue to pump out half truths, lies, twisted versions of reality, anything it has to in order to keep the few remaining members
from leaving
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Nottawayfer
In my observations and experiences of dealing with different leadership, they lie to cover up whatever they want without any sense of remorse. It's hard to confront people when they don't own up to their wrongdoings.
Just like John R.'s letter to rosie. She never answered his questions, and she skirted around the issues.
Kindness is the oil that takes the friction out of life.
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Too Gray Now
Can deception be adequately confronted? To me, that question has two different answers. From a personal perspective and from an organizational perspective. The organizational perspective is much "cleaner" to determine.
From a personal perspective, one has to ask "Have I done what I must in order to confront the issue?". If the answer is ?yes? then that would be "adequate" on a personal level. If I judge that I have passed the reasonable man test, then the blood is on the other party's head and hands. Pontius Pilate, move over and make room. I am sitting down.
However, on a practical basis if an organization has no MEANS in place to address such an issue, one would have to wonder which of the two answers are true (and neither is very pretty):
1. The Organization denies deception is possible. If the organization doesn't CARE about stopping deception, then there will be no mechanism in place to do so. (Which, with TWI, at the top, there is not). After 50 years of people getting "possessed", Mark and Avoid policies, summary dismissals, etc... One would have to conclude that the organization RECOGNIZES the POSSIBILITY that LOWER people can be deceived. Since the aforementioned issues HAVE arisen, one must conclude that the organization IN FACT DENIES the possibility of deception permeating the highest levels. If this is so, then how do the ?Fog Years? get explained by the top people?? I thought they were deceived at that time?
2. The Organization Does Not Require a Formal Means for Dealing with Deception because it is not a routine occurrence. If this were true, then it would mean that TWI top people have actually found a way to ESCAPE this world and our fleshly condition. I know they say it is called renewing the mind?. But if you believe that you only have to renew your mind once and it is forever clean in that area? then you have just told me that you are already deceived and in a high-minded form of denial.
So no matter which way you slice it? TWI has been remiss by implementing any internal mechanism to deal with this OBVIOUS problems that HAVE ALREADY occured AT THE VERY TOP. They are in extreme denial about reality and human nature and are trying to ascend to ?God? status thinking they are above deception.
So no. Deception can NOT be adequately confronted from within given the fact that organization is over 50 years old... In PRACTICE, they have shown their belief? deception does not exist. Very sad state of affairs.
You can NEVER confront a drug addict about his problem until he believes he has one. From their point of view, they do not have a problem.
The blood is on their heads.
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Goey
TGN,
What if the deception is intentional and done with full knowledge?
Dontcha think is is possible, if not likely, that TWI's BOD and other top leaders are in the business of deception?
Isn't is possible, that it is not so much that they don't believe that deception exists( certainly they must) but that their denial of it is just another intentional part of the deception itself.
I find it very difficult to believe that Rosie and gang actually do not believe that they have a problem.
It seems much more likely to me that they are just rotten to the core and that that they know it. These folks are frauds and cons IMO. Unlike the alcoholic who does not really know he has a problem, the con and the fraud uses deception as one of the main tools in his bag of tricks.
Goey
[This message was edited by Goey on March 07, 2003 at 18:12.]
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LuckyGirl
It is impossible to reason with a dictatorship, plain & simple. The only hope that twi would have is to have more of a democracy. Until that time, forget it.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The really pathetic thing is that these leaders are 100% convinced that they are the God life line.
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Too Gray Now
Goey: This topic struck a nerve with me because I am a business owner and have been to court and have a respect for what meets the reasonable man test. TWI does not.
You focused on MOTIVE, I focused on MEANS. Together, they create a 1,2 punch that is very damning.
It is always more difficult to PROVE motives of the heart. I am sure there are innies that would not even CONSIDER what you propose... that their Board of Trustees are cons, rotten to the core?. They just won?t consider it. The fact that you offer a ?likely explanation? does not mean it will be received as such by innies. And that is ?Damn Sad? all by itself.
On the other hand, a reasonable (read: responsible) company would have ALREADY acted and put measures in place to protect against what has happened at the top, regardless of motive? simply based upopn the OUTCOME ... but they have not done so?
If I was running a company and let corporate secrets out of the bag so that insider trading could take place, I would be fired and convicted when caught. There are laws on the books to prevent such a scenario. Why? Because there is enough past history to show there are OTHER problems created that damage the company and market FAR more than the $$ that resulted from the inside trade.
The problems that came as a result of allowing LCM to do some insider wife trading? or other ?insider? things? was MUCH more damaging to the organization at many levels and should never have been allowed to continue by the Board of Trustees. Wall Street and the Securities and Exchange Commission have procedures in place whenever they see insider trading because they know that such secret, forbidden fruit results in EXPONENTIAL damages? and it does not take 50 years to figure out stuff like this?. Any responsible person knows that human nature has not changed? people will cheat. People will deceive. Wall Street figured it out, but TWI hasn?t figured it out, yet.
One thing is for sure, the leaders of TWI are unfit to run the organization... regardless if they are the two-bit cons or if they are the irresponsible people that I claim them to be...
There is no organizational clout within that would empower ?followers? to come forward and demand that the Board of Trustees (BOT) actually BECOME RESPONSIBLE and require that they do things in the best interests of the followers. The BOT have never put in place ANY mechanism that creates a responsibility to its members? there is no membership, you can not join TWI, legally. There is no means to do so.
By any corporate standard, the BOT have shown themselves to be, in the face of every past crisis - incompetent. By some measures, they might prove to be shrewd operators, and by other means - .they may very well prove to be ? criminals in a court of law.
In the mean time, I have little hope that they will ever get to the real matters of the heart that you or I raise, Goey. And deception is always a matter of the heart.
Sad. Damn sad.
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troubledwine
I would put money down that you could trace a streak as wide as a 8 lane LA freeway through the history of TWI showing all the little half truths and mostly trues that were told over the years. I know I have seen some of them.
The problem that I see is justifying it instead of correcting it. I don't see it as much of a stretch and it has been discussed here before that they think lying in the name of God is ok. I know for a fact because a top national leader was confronted for being dishonest and she EXPLAINED WHY IT WAS OK!!!!!!! Right before my very eyes. This was paid salary waycorps well before they went full time. I was too stupid to see it for what it was.
UUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH -- yet another charlie brown miss at a field goal for me....
Would it be a stretch to document the following:
-they don't think underlings are mature enough to handle the "deeper" things of the ministry
- David acted crazy (lied) to escape the king - therefore we can lie too when needed
- the new testament minister is the ot king and has all the priveledges and "flexibility" the king had
-their thought that lying be revelation happened all the time in the ot
Strange strange strange positions for sure
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Dot Matrix
TGrayN-
WOW
Great Post! You are right there is nothing in place that makes the BOD responsible to its members because you cannot join TWI.
What a snare!
Dot Matrix
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Too Gray Now
Ramming Speed!!
Remember that line from the movie Ben Hur? All the slaves rowing to the beat of the drum, chained to the oars... and the BAM !@! The ship gets broad-sided by another vessel and starts to sink. Then the slave (Ben Hur) escapes and saves the captain on a floating piece of wreckage...
Nice movie. Good parallel to the current innies... Everyone has to wonder and work out for themselves if they are going to be the "Ben Hur" or just a hapless slave.
There is nothing that guarantees there will be a Ben Hur outcome where some ?lowly? person gets to "Save" the President of TWI... given that everyone is willing to go down with the ship or is chained to it... then the BEST THING that could happen would be to hear...
RAMMING SPEED!!
And let the resulting CRASH be the deciding factor that helps sort everything out. A sudden impact would be better than dragging out the slow demise of this fiasco masquerading as a ministry and to watch fine people whither as they row with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and might? who are slaves that exist ONLY to give power to the ship.
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troubledwine
powerful comments too gray --- good show
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jediknight777
You have the best ?sociopathic empathy?, that money can be conned for, actively in evidence from the BOD Collective in the Borg Hive up in Ohio.
Now all you need is about 4 years in order to effectively clone a Joe Average (with a big calling from God) into an obedient Corp, of various numerical designation, in order to extend the ?eyes and ears? of church all the way to the rank and filers that so desperately need oversight in such things as finances, checkbooks, monetary planning, giving of money, tithing and of course abundant sharing.
With these glassy eyed robots knowing so much and yet not knowing their holes from an *** which standeth upon the ground, the bottom line of control are these faithful Borg Corp that will carry out both the ?heart and letter? of any edict that the BOD can define to them all with more than enough KJV in verse decoupaged to it.
The undercurrent has always been the same at TWI, it?s all about giving them money for anything that pertains to the wisdom that they panhandle from the tithing podium. And using anyone willing to faithfully stand for that bottom line.
Anyone that has opposed them, and is exposed to be doing such, will be branded as possessed, lied about, and have their characters slandered, and then will be banned from attending fellowships. Only this time the ones that will doing the banning and slandering will be smiling and not spitting. Only difference.
The practical ?graces? to which we hear accounts of, and as attested to by ?verbal ones? still in attendance, sometimes implies the assumption that this is a ?doctrinal change?. Not so. TWI has not introduced teachings as a ?replacement doctrine? to justify the ?gentleness? to which they enslave people now days, by.
They are just not ?acting? upon the doctrine they have in place and no doubt choose to keep BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT REPLACED IT.
But they will eventually start to use it, the overwhelming lust to beat a willing slave seems to abate itself but for a season.
They just proved the adage that LCM missed in his godlike opiate delusion: you can enslave all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can not enslave all of the people all of the time and still bilk them for money.
His passion to play chief fascist must have blinded him to that reality and caused him to misstep.
But he had such a qualified Board of Trustees that advised, and approved, and lauded all of his actions (until the Civil and Criminal Courts became involved)? how could he have so miss stepped?
JedI?
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Goey
Posted by Too Grey Now:
I agree, if TWI is to sink it most likely needs to be from a direct and fatal hit. They can dodge and absorb a few minor blows forever.
Even if all of the followers stopped giving their ABS or even if there were no followers, the BOD and core insiders would still be in control of about 65 million in cash and other assets. They would still be in high cotton.
The only thing that I see that could really take TWI down for the count, would be a successful class action suit for fraud and for rackeetering. Once the civil suit was successful the State and the Feds could mop up with the criminal charges and convicions, and the court could order a disolvement of the corporation - something like what happened Jim Baaker and the PTL Club.
I have heard rumors of a class action suit, but that was about a year or so ago. Nothing seems to have come if it. I don't know if the ex-TWI community could become organized or focused enough to actually put one together. It would not be easy.
Short of a class action suit or someting like it, I see nothing else that could do it. But then, maybe there is something that I do not see.
Goey
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washingtonweather
What is adequate here?
We confronted 48 families in New Mexico with the legal truth....NOT ONE blinked an eye.
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