The calm and the voice returned...can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a starting point?
Tis very hard for me to love something that I question their existence. I wanted to know God when I got involved with TWI. I still do I think, at times I think I'm too jaded.
I completely understand. That too is my dilemna. 20 years after TWI I'm not sure what I believe. Was JC the son of God and not God? was I delusional about Speaking in tongues? questions that are still going on in my head. What the he11 do I believe?? and why do I believe it???
John
Maybe the questioning phase is a vital part of the process that we are supposed to go through.
Just a thought.
But, hey! If we adhered to the dogma of session #7(never even consider) we would miss out on that completely.
Anyway, no matter what you believe, you can't go too wrong with the "love your neighbor" stuff even if you don't give much thought to the "Love God" part.
Well, I suppose, in order to separate the spaghetti from the sauce, you'll have to use your 'noodle'.........(Hey, SOMEbody had to say it )
It may take a while to get your critical thinking skills back, depending what they were like before the evil empire (TWI), but rest assured, they will return with use. :)
Understood Bulwinkle...I gave a greatly abbreviated version of that incident. That incident was the beginning of an entire weekend where in spite of my childish temper tantrum, in spite of my doubt ..in spite of insisting that if he WAS there, I didn`t want anything to do with him.....God proved his existance beyond a shadow of a doubt...in a way that was unquestionable.
Why he would take that time with me...why he would care enough to establish that his presence beyond a shadow of a doubt I don`t know...
I just know that at the end of the weekend that I was humbled that he would care enough to prove to me in a way that I could accept that he was indeed there.
It has happened to me one other time years before....in both cases I was hurt beyond being able to *hear* or believe.
I'll second the need and benefit of time alone to sort things out. I left in 1989. I was in a splinter group until '92.(Don't ask - it was a real mess.) Then I went to Waco, Texas for three years. (A true desert of a town in many ways.) This was my "alone time."
When we moved back to Ft Worth, the bogus stuff was easier to spot. I haven't even been tempted to find another splinter group since. In fact, the idea is repulsive to me.
I was like doojable is now from the day I left ... any splinter seemed just like twi to me. I left cold turkey, found a volleyball group, professional folks that I hung out with. Then met a couple hundred by playing volleyball and running a little ministry ... I mean volleyball league. We had no two drink limit, I guaronteee.
I think the insidious parts of twi can't be cleaned off so easily. It just doesn't seem it is a matter of changing my mind on a few scriptures. It was the attitude that we knew something more than others, or that we had some inside track, or the hidden fears that we acted out of.
And it probably goes to our prior character flaws that got exploited, so those weaknesses were made worse perhaps, ...
It seems you have to move on and get new friends and new books and do some new things. I'm not sure if there are some parallels to addiction ...
It seems the splinters offered to fix it all by changing a few verses and a few titles and names. But digging a little might reveal just how deep the rabbit hole goes. And we all have that human condition anyway, so trying too hard to fix that might become stressful in itself.
When I used the spaghetti analogy, I was thinking about the factor of TIME.
It was taking me time to suck all that sauce off those noodles.
But reconsidering, that analogy is weak as well.
Besides time, there is EFFORT.
There is really little effort in the noodle sucking, just time.
Then I thought about a knotted rope or knotted yarn. Someone else mentions this as well
That would require both time and effort. It seems more appropriate.
But today I thought of a third factor- PAIN.
So there is time and effort and pain involved with reconfiguring all one's beliefs...
Yup – that is an even better analogy…In my opinion, the healing process for anyone involves taking a step back to take in as much of a panoramic view of our own viewpoint – to analyze our own belief system. I don't know if that makes any sense – I'm trying to describe how one would pick apart a thought process on any given topic – to ask Why do I think that way? Where did I get that idea? Do I still consider that a valid source? Does it have relevance to the way I feel now?, etc.
Like an atrophied muscle, our thinking process will heal and strengthen with use…And maybe with that comes a unique feeling to anyone escaping the clutches of a mind-numbing group - - a newfound confidence in the ability to THINK!
I can't tell you all how much I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this thread!!
I thought I was the only one who had to start all the way back to just "be a kind, considerate human being and look for opportunities to give and help others when you can" as my starting point. Yes, I think it really can be that simple.
I don't know anything about God or what I believe about God and right now I just don't know that I care. I figure if God is all-knowing He knows I'm doing the best I can, and that I'm a far better person this way than I ever was when I was practicing various brands of religion.
ya know.. before throwing the Baby and the Spaghetti out.. maybe gently toss the baby against the wall opposite of the stove. If it sticks, it isn't done. If it doesn't stick, most assuredly it will bounce back..
I stand corrected~ "kits" would be the proper term for squirrels.
And I doubt you ever even gently threw them at the wall. General rule of thumb: After cooking for 18 years, there done-RARE. If they're lucky enough to maintain good relationships with parents throughout their lives, they'll probably end up well-done!
Cinder.. I have this imagination that would only be considered a curse by a normal sane human being..
you don't want to take me to "baby showers".. in fact, a prudent person wouldn't want to even bring the subject up, providing I was in hearing distance..
nor would one want to describe torrential rains in my presence as "raining cats and dogs"..
give me a graphic kind of wayside saying, and I'll run with it..
In some ways.. I hope I never grow old.. but as bad as I am at times, I really have learned to use at least a little bit of discretion..
It took me a long time not to feel guilty because I wasn't setting the world on fire and wasn't the next apostle Paul and couldn't live up to all the Way Corps Principles and couldn't witness every day and get a cazillion people and $ into the ministry and couldn't heal the sick and raise people from the dead and work in the fields at the Kipp farm from sunup to sundown and fix dinner for 6 people living in the house and do everybody's laundry and.................
boy, i was exhausted physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually - I had to go to the desert to heal, I was pretty burned out - hmmmmm......
the spaghetti burned!!!!!!!!!! The only thing I didn't throw out was God, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit - everything else HAD to go for a while. Cleaning off each strand of the spaghetti was a really good analogy!
I think "desert time" is where God gets us alone and then tells and teaches us what HE wants us to be and do. Rest time, training time, down time. I was thankful when I finally got to the desert. Now I go there willingly when I need it - a rest!
I can't tell you all how much I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this thread!!
I thought I was the only one who had to start all the way back to just "be a kind, considerate human being and look for opportunities to give and help others when you can" as my starting point. Yes, I think it really can be that simple....
Sounds very similar to my experience. In the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch, it was like being in a big highway wreck – and slowly realizing that no one is going to help me. Deciding to leave TWI in 86 was like using the Jaws of Life to cut my way out of that mess.
For a long time after I left I had to take my belief system back to square one, re-evaluating the most basic things – even recalling what I thought about God and life as a child.
Isn`t it COOL though that he brought us all back to square one when we became humble enough to listen? When we stopped believing that WE knew it all? that WE had all of the answeres?
We learned to be insufferably arrogant imo, but God was right there waiting for us to be able to hear again to begin work all over again...rebuilding our foundation brick by brick.....No recriminations, no punishment, just a gladness for our return.
Thats how I felt anyway. That and so so humble that he would go to so much trouble for me....
I think in '86 a lot of people who weren't in the Corps or at hq’s never had enough information about the POP to make an informed decision, they never heard it, read it, or had a copy of it, nor had access to anyone who would talk about it in detail or who really understood it themselves. Thusly delaying their departure for years while immersing them in a state of confusion concerning what exactly went on and what it meant, lacking understanding. Many of these non-staff non-corps, apprentice and new corps were intentionally kept in the dark, and those who knew what was going on had left or weren’t talking. We were also told the fear mongering tactic of not to read the John Lynn, Schoenheit paper.
I don't remember when the written form of POP came out for anyone to read, maybe 1990 or so? I recall reading a part of a letter from chris geer in 1989 stating that those who had written him asking for copies of POP, or offering assistance with rebuilding the ministry, who were twig coordinators, advance class grads, believers, etc., who weren't top leadership or had older way corps status, needn’t bother.
He gave two analogies, one of a trained fire crew, the other of a medical staff responding to an emergency, making the point that he felt the Dr Vpw approved clergy, and pre-1986 way corps had failed to respond properly. He stated that those in the hospital waiting room (meaning all other believers from Twi) were probably vitally concerned but lacking the properly developed skills and would be unable to respond. Kind of like, thanks, but no thanks, patting us on the head, handing us our hats, and sending us away. Gee, thanks….I guess I don’t matter…..nor do any of my efforts….to you or to God…wonderful, more confusion, no chance of being part of the solution according to you...
I never understood why he said that in that way, and what the meaning was, until I came here to the Greasespot last year, and learned the full story. If I had only had the missing pieces of the puzzle sooner I could have been well on the way toward healing from the way I was treated by Martindale and others at the end, and figuring out what worshipping God was all about, well before last year.
At least I’m here now, well informed, and on the road toward peace and understanding of my past twi life.
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bulwinkl
Tis very hard for me to love something that I question their existence. I wanted to know God when I got involved with TWI. I still do I think, at times I think I'm too jaded.
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waysider
Maybe the questioning phase is a vital part of the process that we are supposed to go through.
Just a thought.
But, hey! If we adhered to the dogma of session #7(never even consider) we would miss out on that completely.
Anyway, no matter what you believe, you can't go too wrong with the "love your neighbor" stuff even if you don't give much thought to the "Love God" part.
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Sushi
Well, I suppose, in order to separate the spaghetti from the sauce, you'll have to use your 'noodle'.........(Hey, SOMEbody had to say it
)
It may take a while to get your critical thinking skills back, depending what they were like before the evil empire (TWI), but rest assured, they will return with use. :)
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rascal
Understood Bulwinkle...I gave a greatly abbreviated version of that incident. That incident was the beginning of an entire weekend where in spite of my childish temper tantrum, in spite of my doubt ..in spite of insisting that if he WAS there, I didn`t want anything to do with him.....God proved his existance beyond a shadow of a doubt...in a way that was unquestionable.
Why he would take that time with me...why he would care enough to establish that his presence beyond a shadow of a doubt I don`t know...
I just know that at the end of the weekend that I was humbled that he would care enough to prove to me in a way that I could accept that he was indeed there.
It has happened to me one other time years before....in both cases I was hurt beyond being able to *hear* or believe.
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Imagine
When I used the spaghetti analogy, I was thinking about the factor of TIME.
It was taking me time to suck all that sauce off those noodles.
But reconsidering, that analogy is weak as well.
Besides time, there is EFFORT.
There is really little effort in the noodle sucking, just time.
Then I thought about a knotted rope or knotted yarn. Someone else mentions this as well
That would require both time and effort. It seems more appropriate.
But today I thought of a third factor- PAIN.
So there is time and effort and pain involved with reconfiguring all one's beliefs.
What about tangled matted hair of someone that has been in a slumber for years and wakes up to a situation?
For me the transition from way world to understanding the Bible has been like combing through a mass of snarls.
Another thing...
As t-bone shared, the need for time alone with God is so critical for the healing process.
I don't think people can jump from one group to another. ..
Exchanging one group think for another no matter how wonderful the group is.
Thank you for letting me share.
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doojable
I'll second the need and benefit of time alone to sort things out. I left in 1989. I was in a splinter group until '92.(Don't ask - it was a real mess.) Then I went to Waco, Texas for three years. (A true desert of a town in many ways.) This was my "alone time."
When we moved back to Ft Worth, the bogus stuff was easier to spot. I haven't even been tempted to find another splinter group since. In fact, the idea is repulsive to me.
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rhino
I was like doojable is now from the day I left ... any splinter seemed just like twi to me. I left cold turkey, found a volleyball group, professional folks that I hung out with. Then met a couple hundred by playing volleyball and running a little ministry ... I mean volleyball league.
We had no two drink limit, I guaronteee.
I think the insidious parts of twi can't be cleaned off so easily. It just doesn't seem it is a matter of changing my mind on a few scriptures. It was the attitude that we knew something more than others, or that we had some inside track, or the hidden fears that we acted out of.
And it probably goes to our prior character flaws that got exploited, so those weaknesses were made worse perhaps, ...
It seems you have to move on and get new friends and new books and do some new things. I'm not sure if there are some parallels to addiction ...
It seems the splinters offered to fix it all by changing a few verses and a few titles and names. But digging a little might reveal just how deep the rabbit hole goes. And we all have that human condition anyway, so trying too hard to fix that might become stressful in itself.
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
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T-Bone
Yup – that is an even better analogy…In my opinion, the healing process for anyone involves taking a step back to take in as much of a panoramic view of our own viewpoint – to analyze our own belief system. I don't know if that makes any sense – I'm trying to describe how one would pick apart a thought process on any given topic – to ask Why do I think that way? Where did I get that idea? Do I still consider that a valid source? Does it have relevance to the way I feel now?, etc.
Like an atrophied muscle, our thinking process will heal and strengthen with use…And maybe with that comes a unique feeling to anyone escaping the clutches of a mind-numbing group - - a newfound confidence in the ability to THINK!
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
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TheHighWay
I can't tell you all how much I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this thread!!
I thought I was the only one who had to start all the way back to just "be a kind, considerate human being and look for opportunities to give and help others when you can" as my starting point. Yes, I think it really can be that simple.
I don't know anything about God or what I believe about God and right now I just don't know that I care. I figure if God is all-knowing He knows I'm doing the best I can, and that I'm a far better person this way than I ever was when I was practicing various brands of religion.
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rascal
Amen Highway...well said!
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Ham
How I missed this wonderful thread eludes me..
ya know.. before throwing the Baby and the Spaghetti out.. maybe gently toss the baby against the wall opposite of the stove. If it sticks, it isn't done. If it doesn't stick, most assuredly it will bounce back..
works for cakes, too.
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TheHighWay
Hammie,
I love your strange, sick, sense of humor!!
THW
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cinderpelt
Sick, indeed! Do you have kids? Or should I ask, did you have kids?
Do you have cake? Did you have cake?
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Ham
ah yes.. two "kits"..
I love them dearly.
I've had cake too. But one cannot have their cake, and eat it too..
I've even had cake that would bounce back off of the wall opposite of the stove, as well..
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rhino
I think it was very considerate that you threw the baby off the wall gently, and opposite the stove ...
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cinderpelt
I stand corrected~ "kits" would be the proper term for squirrels.
And I doubt you ever even gently threw them at the wall. General rule of thumb: After cooking for 18 years, there done-RARE. If they're lucky enough to maintain good relationships with parents throughout their lives, they'll probably end up well-done!
OK~ Back to our regularly scheduled program.
~Cinder
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Ham
Cinder.. I have this imagination that would only be considered a curse by a normal sane human being..
you don't want to take me to "baby showers".. in fact, a prudent person wouldn't want to even bring the subject up, providing I was in hearing distance..
nor would one want to describe torrential rains in my presence as "raining cats and dogs"..
give me a graphic kind of wayside saying, and I'll run with it..
In some ways.. I hope I never grow old.. but as bad as I am at times, I really have learned to use at least a little bit of discretion..
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Edi
It took me a long time not to feel guilty because I wasn't setting the world on fire and wasn't the next apostle Paul and couldn't live up to all the Way Corps Principles and couldn't witness every day and get a cazillion people and $ into the ministry and couldn't heal the sick and raise people from the dead and work in the fields at the Kipp farm from sunup to sundown and fix dinner for 6 people living in the house and do everybody's laundry and.................
boy, i was exhausted physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually - I had to go to the desert to heal, I was pretty burned out - hmmmmm......
the spaghetti burned!!!!!!!!!! The only thing I didn't throw out was God, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit - everything else HAD to go for a while. Cleaning off each strand of the spaghetti was a really good analogy!
I think "desert time" is where God gets us alone and then tells and teaches us what HE wants us to be and do. Rest time, training time, down time. I was thankful when I finally got to the desert. Now I go there willingly when I need it - a rest!
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T-Bone
Sounds very similar to my experience. In the aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch, it was like being in a big highway wreck – and slowly realizing that no one is going to help me. Deciding to leave TWI in 86 was like using the Jaws of Life to cut my way out of that mess.
For a long time after I left I had to take my belief system back to square one, re-evaluating the most basic things – even recalling what I thought about God and life as a child.
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rascal
Isn`t it COOL though that he brought us all back to square one when we became humble enough to listen? When we stopped believing that WE knew it all? that WE had all of the answeres?
We learned to be insufferably arrogant imo, but God was right there waiting for us to be able to hear again to begin work all over again...rebuilding our foundation brick by brick.....No recriminations, no punishment, just a gladness for our return.
Thats how I felt anyway. That and so so humble that he would go to so much trouble for me....
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now I see
I think in '86 a lot of people who weren't in the Corps or at hq’s never had enough information about the POP to make an informed decision, they never heard it, read it, or had a copy of it, nor had access to anyone who would talk about it in detail or who really understood it themselves. Thusly delaying their departure for years while immersing them in a state of confusion concerning what exactly went on and what it meant, lacking understanding. Many of these non-staff non-corps, apprentice and new corps were intentionally kept in the dark, and those who knew what was going on had left or weren’t talking. We were also told the fear mongering tactic of not to read the John Lynn, Schoenheit paper.
I don't remember when the written form of POP came out for anyone to read, maybe 1990 or so? I recall reading a part of a letter from chris geer in 1989 stating that those who had written him asking for copies of POP, or offering assistance with rebuilding the ministry, who were twig coordinators, advance class grads, believers, etc., who weren't top leadership or had older way corps status, needn’t bother.
He gave two analogies, one of a trained fire crew, the other of a medical staff responding to an emergency, making the point that he felt the Dr Vpw approved clergy, and pre-1986 way corps had failed to respond properly. He stated that those in the hospital waiting room (meaning all other believers from Twi) were probably vitally concerned but lacking the properly developed skills and would be unable to respond. Kind of like, thanks, but no thanks, patting us on the head, handing us our hats, and sending us away. Gee, thanks….I guess I don’t matter…..nor do any of my efforts….to you or to God…wonderful, more confusion, no chance of being part of the solution according to you...
I never understood why he said that in that way, and what the meaning was, until I came here to the Greasespot last year, and learned the full story. If I had only had the missing pieces of the puzzle sooner I could have been well on the way toward healing from the way I was treated by Martindale and others at the end, and figuring out what worshipping God was all about, well before last year.
At least I’m here now, well informed, and on the road toward peace and understanding of my past twi life.
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