there is something called spaghetti code, where a program lacks organization and uses unstructured branching, so if you change one thing it can unravel things all over the place. it can happen when programmers have no time to rewrite old, undocumented, or sloppy code to new standards, so new code is hooked in however it can be. usually it's an awful mess.
the only way to fix bugs that result from unraveled spaghetti is then to trace it back all the way and find all the connections, and sometimes their connections to other things. it's like what you said, looking at each strand to find what's good and what's broken.
Hmmmm The spaghetti analogy is a pretty good one. I have to say that for me, I was so confused, I had to just throw the whole mess in the trash and start all over again with a fresh clean plate.
I then added one noodle at a time, starting with deciding whether or not to believe that there even was a God....followed by if there was a God, what was true about him....what could I trust....then adding the things that I felt were safe to believe....Love God and love your neighbor was the beginning....
In time I feel that I have ended up with a wholesome palatable dish. There is just the right amount of sauce, seasoned just the way to suit me, a little melted cheddar cheese topping...etc :)
Either method utilized....if you trace each noodle evaluating the nutritional value, keeping what is good and discarding that which is unpalatable.... or starting all over fresh...each is time consuming, each requires patience ...I think that with God`s help, in the end you end up with a delicious wholesome meal.
there is something called spaghetti code, where a program lacks organization and uses unstructured branching, so if you change one thing it can unravel things all over the place. it can happen when programmers have no time to rewrite old, undocumented, or sloppy code to new standards, so new code is hooked in however it can be. usually it's an awful mess.
the only way to fix bugs that result from unraveled spaghetti is then to trace it back all the way and find all the connections, and sometimes their connections to other things. it's like what you said, looking at each strand to find what's good and what's broken.
Odd analogy Potato. I am an applied mathematician. When I see spaghetti code I usually evaluate the cost of tossing it all out and redoing the code mass for sustainment's sake. So I suppose there are times I throw the baby out with the bathwater and times I keep the baby.
Odd analogy Potato. I am an applied mathematician. When I see spaghetti code I usually evaluate the cost of tossing it all out and redoing the code mass for sustainment's sake. So I suppose there are times I throw the baby out with the bathwater and times I keep the baby.
sometimes you have to throw the whole mess out and start over, like rascal said. I guess I've used a combination of both... clean slate in some categories, and tracing threads in others.
somehow the spaghetti code thing fits for me with twi doctrine. there's been so much patching and covering up of bugs (no, that's a feature!) and distracting from core defects with fancy skins and dashboards, and no one there can really look at it and say, "wow, this program is a f-ing mess!"
I waited for a code rewrite for 5 years before I got the guts to walk out. I expected it to start when lcm got the boot, but I think the coding got even more spaghettified with "new features" getting shoehorned (or sledgehammered) in.
sometimes you have to throw the whole mess out and start over, like rascal said. I guess I've used a combination of both... clean slate in some categories, and tracing threads in others.
somehow the spaghetti code thing fits for me with twi doctrine. there's been so much patching and covering up of bugs (no, that's a feature!) and distracting from core defects with fancy skins and dashboards, and no one there can really look at it and say, "wow, this program is a f-ing mess!"
I waited for a code rewrite for 5 years before I got the guts to walk out. I expected it to start when lcm got the boot, but I think the coding got even more spaghettified with "new features" getting shoehorned (or sledgehammered) in.
Just for you Potato - this will compile - but you are cheating unless you tell me what it does when it executes before compiling.
The author is David Korn author of the Korn Shell /bin/ksh and was the winner of an early '90's obfuscated 'C' code contest.
the bible says it pretty well...prove all things ad hold fast to that which is good....
there is a lot you already know that is not good and trust your gut instinct on things you are "iffy" about.---it is still imperative your are at peace so if it makes you unpeaceful--well maybe figure out why and use it as learning and toss that bit.
Excellent analogy, Imagine – I think that's more in line with the critical thinking process we must do to move forward. I've shared this on Grease Spot before – read a commentary on Galatians by Kenneth Wuest,
Galatians 1:11-19 NASB
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.
18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
Speculating on Paul going to "Arabia" [a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning "an arid, thus a sparsely populated place"] stating he didn't consult with anyone after his conversion – Wuest suggests Paul wanted to be alone with God:
"…He needed time and isolation to think. The revelation of the Son of God had blasted away the foundations of the Pharisaic thought structure which he had been building with such consummate skill and zeal, and it had come tumbling down in ruins about his head. This revelation also furnished him with another foundation upon which to build a new theological structure. But the replacement of the ruined structure with a new one could not be the work of a day or a month. There in Arabia, isolated from all human contact, alone with God, the great apostle restudied his Old Testament scriptures, not now with the Pharisaic traditions vitiating his thinking, but, led by the Holy Spirit, with the central fact of the Cross of the Lord Jesus as the controlling factor in his meditations. Out of all this study emerged the Pauline system of doctrine as we have it presented in Romans…" [Wuest's Word Studies: Galatians in the Greek New Testament, page 52]
Talk about seeing a light at the end of the tunnel! The above commentary was one of the first I purchased after leaving TWI in 86. In the middle of my having a crisis of faith, wondering if anything I learned of the Bible was worth a darn – I found solace in the idea of Paul having a similar experience. I think it's something experienced by every Christian who leaves TWI.
At the time - this was like a "revelation" to me – I don't mean that literally – but it was at this point that I became aware of the need to develop critical thinking skills. That's when I dove head first into systematic theology – with the specific goal of analyzing my entire belief system – coupled with a lot of prayer!
That's not to say I could then figure out everything and come up with the perfect doctrinal system. But in studying various theological systems and commentaries – I got a better idea of the lay of the land [never underestimate the value of another viewpoint – that's the great benefit of Grease Spot too], identifying things that I thought were essential to my faith, things that would have significant practical impact.
Thinking about where I am thus far – I am as one awakened from a nightmare of an ego-trip. I realize there's SO MUCH of the Bible that I do not understand. But I feel I am closer to my Lord now than when I was with the Pharisees.
Hamm and the 1st Squirrel Division will be responsible for securing the forward positions in the initial attack!
I don't know if that would be such a good idea Bump... it's not that I don't trust Hamm... it's just that there are sooo many trees set up there that could be distracting!
That squirrel is only a diversion even though they are equipped with telescopic night vision. Going up the gut is the Rhino.
He comes fully equipped with amour metal plating and no attitude when it comes to taking prisoners. Also he knows the terrain from years of public speaking at the auditorium.
Das "problem" with Der Squirrel Abteilung WeirWelle Erste Einsatztruppen ist... they keep "chattering" with their mouths full ALL the time! And then when they're eating their "nuts" like there's no tomorrow, and the Befehl order comes to ATTACK (Angreifen und Aufmarchieren), they are so full of sauerkraut and nuts, they fall asleep in the trees!!
Es ist Absolut Unsinn, completely crazy to outfit these guys when they only think of their fluffy tails blowing around pine cones and puss 'n boots!!
yes ... send me in first ... I will charge blindly through ... trampling all in sight ...
attempts to confront me with claims I'm possessed will be met with the horn, which they can not cast out ...
and as I stand on their chest I will ask them ... "where is the gold?"
the squirrell batallion can follow up and chomp on any nuts it finds ...
of course I'll find the booze too, so soon they'll have a drunk rhino, which you really don't want at your party ...
what are we talking about anyway?
You mean...you don't know?? "It Was Written", that after P.O.P., there was to be Regime Change! (The movie, "Boys from Brazil"), Der Fuehrer und Der Zurueckkehr (forget about the umlauts!) This was all made known to a select "Korps" few. They were all "programmed" with ORDERS to re-establish Head Quarters with new recruits, equipment und ein "New Word Order"!
Once you have secured HQ, und alle die present Gefangene Inmates have been interrogated, der Zweite Phase will commence.
I had to throw out all the whole baby covered in spaghetti... (that sounds sooo gross btw) God and all. Right now I'm taking time off from all of it to heal. I will get around to bringing some sort of belief system back. If I don't - if God exists and loves us all he should understand right?
I have been examining the spaghetti strands in the meantime. I'm finding myself not liking many of them... I've been tossing them out into the garbage. It's nice to go back and look at what I believed once upon a time and see it from a different perspective.
Maybe I will get into Buddhism? Is that like a fat guy covered in fettucini alfredo?
Don't throw out Buddha with the fettucini alfredo!
I completely understand. That too is my dilemna. 20 years after TWI I'm not sure what I believe. Was JC the son of God and not God? was I delusional about Speaking in tongues? questions that are still going on in my head. What the he11 do I believe?? and why do I believe it???
I got to that point....once during a crisis...I actually said fu ...everything I was ever taught about you is a lie.
Instead of lightening bolts sent from heaven to fry me, there was an immediate calm ...I felt a warm chuckle and something inside said...now that we have THAT understood.....how about we start at square one.
Immediately my pain and confusion returned....I didn`t know WHAT to believe or who to trust to teach me.
The calm and the voice returned...can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a starting point?
That made sense, I could handle that. Doctrinal issues, how many crucified trinity or not, dead alive or not. all seemed to assume a much less important roll.
I mean who cares as long as what we are doing is along the parameters that Jesus had said were the two great commandments.
Does the particulars of what we believe alter that responsibility at all?
Anyway, that keeps it simple and manageable for me.
Well...anyway...that was the basis that I started with, through different sources, I have rebuilt my belief system..
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washn'wear
well said.
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potato
amen, Imagine.
there is something called spaghetti code, where a program lacks organization and uses unstructured branching, so if you change one thing it can unravel things all over the place. it can happen when programmers have no time to rewrite old, undocumented, or sloppy code to new standards, so new code is hooked in however it can be. usually it's an awful mess.
the only way to fix bugs that result from unraveled spaghetti is then to trace it back all the way and find all the connections, and sometimes their connections to other things. it's like what you said, looking at each strand to find what's good and what's broken.
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rascal
Hmmmm The spaghetti analogy is a pretty good one. I have to say that for me, I was so confused, I had to just throw the whole mess in the trash and start all over again with a fresh clean plate.
I then added one noodle at a time, starting with deciding whether or not to believe that there even was a God....followed by if there was a God, what was true about him....what could I trust....then adding the things that I felt were safe to believe....Love God and love your neighbor was the beginning....
In time I feel that I have ended up with a wholesome palatable dish. There is just the right amount of sauce, seasoned just the way to suit me, a little melted cheddar cheese topping...etc :)
Either method utilized....if you trace each noodle evaluating the nutritional value, keeping what is good and discarding that which is unpalatable.... or starting all over fresh...each is time consuming, each requires patience ...I think that with God`s help, in the end you end up with a delicious wholesome meal.
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RumRunner
Odd analogy Potato. I am an applied mathematician. When I see spaghetti code I usually evaluate the cost of tossing it all out and redoing the code mass for sustainment's sake. So I suppose there are times I throw the baby out with the bathwater and times I keep the baby.
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potato
sometimes you have to throw the whole mess out and start over, like rascal said. I guess I've used a combination of both... clean slate in some categories, and tracing threads in others.
somehow the spaghetti code thing fits for me with twi doctrine. there's been so much patching and covering up of bugs (no, that's a feature!) and distracting from core defects with fancy skins and dashboards, and no one there can really look at it and say, "wow, this program is a f-ing mess!"
I waited for a code rewrite for 5 years before I got the guts to walk out. I expected it to start when lcm got the boot, but I think the coding got even more spaghettified with "new features" getting shoehorned (or sledgehammered) in.
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RumRunner
Just for you Potato - this will compile - but you are cheating unless you tell me what it does when it executes before compiling.
The author is David Korn author of the Korn Shell /bin/ksh and was the winner of an early '90's obfuscated 'C' code contest.
main() { printf(&unix["21%six12\"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
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WhiteDove
My spaghetti tasted pretty good ,my complements to the chef. It does improve with whine, at least some say so.
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cinderpelt
I think the analogies are very insightful, although the Rum Runner lost me on that last one.
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washn'wear
the bible says it pretty well...prove all things ad hold fast to that which is good....
there is a lot you already know that is not good and trust your gut instinct on things you are "iffy" about.---it is still imperative your are at peace so if it makes you unpeaceful--well maybe figure out why and use it as learning and toss that bit.
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potato
if I'm right about what you're asking for, the answer is:
unix
I can't program at this level, not even close! but my husband is way geeky and helped me out with this.
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RumRunner
Well done! Congrats to him. It really was just a geek spin on your "spaghetti code" comment.
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potato
geek out, bro
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T-Bone
Excellent analogy, Imagine – I think that's more in line with the critical thinking process we must do to move forward. I've shared this on Grease Spot before – read a commentary on Galatians by Kenneth Wuest,
Galatians 1:11-19 NASB
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.
18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
Speculating on Paul going to "Arabia" [a transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning "an arid, thus a sparsely populated place"] stating he didn't consult with anyone after his conversion – Wuest suggests Paul wanted to be alone with God:
"…He needed time and isolation to think. The revelation of the Son of God had blasted away the foundations of the Pharisaic thought structure which he had been building with such consummate skill and zeal, and it had come tumbling down in ruins about his head. This revelation also furnished him with another foundation upon which to build a new theological structure. But the replacement of the ruined structure with a new one could not be the work of a day or a month. There in Arabia, isolated from all human contact, alone with God, the great apostle restudied his Old Testament scriptures, not now with the Pharisaic traditions vitiating his thinking, but, led by the Holy Spirit, with the central fact of the Cross of the Lord Jesus as the controlling factor in his meditations. Out of all this study emerged the Pauline system of doctrine as we have it presented in Romans…" [Wuest's Word Studies: Galatians in the Greek New Testament, page 52]
Talk about seeing a light at the end of the tunnel! The above commentary was one of the first I purchased after leaving TWI in 86. In the middle of my having a crisis of faith, wondering if anything I learned of the Bible was worth a darn – I found solace in the idea of Paul having a similar experience. I think it's something experienced by every Christian who leaves TWI.
At the time - this was like a "revelation" to me – I don't mean that literally – but it was at this point that I became aware of the need to develop critical thinking skills. That's when I dove head first into systematic theology – with the specific goal of analyzing my entire belief system – coupled with a lot of prayer!
That's not to say I could then figure out everything and come up with the perfect doctrinal system. But in studying various theological systems and commentaries – I got a better idea of the lay of the land [never underestimate the value of another viewpoint – that's the great benefit of Grease Spot too], identifying things that I thought were essential to my faith, things that would have significant practical impact.
Thinking about where I am thus far – I am as one awakened from a nightmare of an ego-trip. I realize there's SO MUCH of the Bible that I do not understand. But I feel I am closer to my Lord now than when I was with the Pharisees.
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Bumpy
‘How do you move forward’, by going back to the past of course!
http://www.theway.org/
Hamm and the 1st Squirrel Division will be responsible for securing the forward positions in the initial attack!
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Tom Strange
I don't know if that would be such a good idea Bump... it's not that I don't trust Hamm... it's just that there are sooo many trees set up there that could be distracting!
He would really, really have to renew his mind!
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Bumpy
That squirrel is only a diversion even though they are equipped with telescopic night vision. Going up the gut is the Rhino.
He comes fully equipped with amour metal plating and no attitude when it comes to taking prisoners. Also he knows the terrain from years of public speaking at the auditorium.
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cinderpelt
The first thing the Squirrel Division would encounter would be enough "Nuts" to distract them all! Bad idea, imo. Send the Rhino in FIRST.
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Bumpy
Das "problem" with Der Squirrel Abteilung WeirWelle Erste Einsatztruppen ist... they keep "chattering" with their mouths full ALL the time! And then when they're eating their "nuts" like there's no tomorrow, and the Befehl order comes to ATTACK (Angreifen und Aufmarchieren), they are so full of sauerkraut and nuts, they fall asleep in the trees!!
Es ist Absolut Unsinn, completely crazy to outfit these guys when they only think of their fluffy tails blowing around pine cones and puss 'n boots!!
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rhino
yes ... send me in first ... I will charge blindly through ... trampling all in sight ...
attempts to confront me with claims I'm possessed will be met with the horn, which they can not cast out ...
and as I stand on their chest I will ask them ... "where is the gold?"
the squirrell batallion can follow up and chomp on any nuts it finds ...
of course I'll find the booze too, so soon they'll have a drunk rhino, which you really don't want at your party ...
what are we talking about anyway?
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Bumpy
You mean...you don't know?? "It Was Written", that after P.O.P., there was to be Regime Change! (The movie, "Boys from Brazil"), Der Fuehrer und Der Zurueckkehr (forget about the umlauts!) This was all made known to a select "Korps" few. They were all "programmed" with ORDERS to re-establish Head Quarters with new recruits, equipment und ein "New Word Order"!
Once you have secured HQ, und alle die present Gefangene Inmates have been interrogated, der Zweite Phase will commence.
Das ist Alles.
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Imagine
I quick thank you to those who replied.
I learned some great stuff from T-bone and also enjoyed the laughs.
The scripture references were very insightful! and helpful!
Paul had to change his whole belief system as well. Good Thought!
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Nero
I had to throw out all the whole baby covered in spaghetti... (that sounds sooo gross btw) God and all. Right now I'm taking time off from all of it to heal. I will get around to bringing some sort of belief system back. If I don't - if God exists and loves us all he should understand right?
I have been examining the spaghetti strands in the meantime. I'm finding myself not liking many of them... I've been tossing them out into the garbage. It's nice to go back and look at what I believed once upon a time and see it from a different perspective.
Maybe I will get into Buddhism? Is that like a fat guy covered in fettucini alfredo?
Don't throw out Buddha with the fettucini alfredo!
...
No?
Well I tried.
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bulwinkl
Nero,
I completely understand. That too is my dilemna. 20 years after TWI I'm not sure what I believe. Was JC the son of God and not God? was I delusional about Speaking in tongues? questions that are still going on in my head. What the he11 do I believe?? and why do I believe it???
John
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rascal
I got to that point....once during a crisis...I actually said fu ...everything I was ever taught about you is a lie.
Instead of lightening bolts sent from heaven to fry me, there was an immediate calm ...I felt a warm chuckle and something inside said...now that we have THAT understood.....how about we start at square one.
Immediately my pain and confusion returned....I didn`t know WHAT to believe or who to trust to teach me.
The calm and the voice returned...can you handle love God and love your neighbor as a starting point?
That made sense, I could handle that. Doctrinal issues, how many crucified trinity or not, dead alive or not. all seemed to assume a much less important roll.
I mean who cares as long as what we are doing is along the parameters that Jesus had said were the two great commandments.
Does the particulars of what we believe alter that responsibility at all?
Anyway, that keeps it simple and manageable for me.
Well...anyway...that was the basis that I started with, through different sources, I have rebuilt my belief system..
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