2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Perhaps it's Hell in God as well as heaven and more.
No perhaps about it imo. It's both. In God and God in.
Since none of us have ascended to heaven (yet :)), nor hell, I always took that to mean, if I'm in a dangerous or hellish situation - yea though I walk through the valley of death - then he is there, wherever I go, in good or in bad. He is always with me whereever, or in whatever situation I might be.
As far as I have studied, there was neither heaven (as we see it today) nor hell in the Old Testament. Those guys didn't even know what eternal life was. Hell was sheol or the unseen state in that Psalm. Jonah 2:2; he cried from the belly of hell (same word). I don't think this was the hell we picture, eternal fire, etc. I resent your implication that you are so much more knowledgeable and we just have to keep on looking. What? You can't share your knowledge?
Agreed Irisheyes. There were two sections to sheol, or the grave, in the OT - the "pit" where people await judgment and paradise - for the righteous where those who believed and looked forward to the Messiah/Christ went before he was here, which was separated by a wide gulf.
Christ, after his death, triumphantly went down and preached to the spirits that were in prison (I believe these were the ones who left their habitiation and caused the havoc in Gen. 6:4 leading to the flood) triumphing over them, and emptied out paradise, taking those firstfruits with him to be with him. He locked the gates of hell to the believer and no believer will ever go there. That's why it is said, the gates of hell will not prevail against his church - or called out ones.
I think when I say in the future it will be a place where God is not, we know hades (hell) is thrown into the lake of fire at the end. I believe fire is similar but not literal - its something that can't be described and God uses that. I was curious, well, where does this lake of fire go? It was interesting to see it is never destroyed - hades, sheol, hell is, what ever you want to call it is - thrown in this lake, but not the lake itself. And, I believe it will be outside God's realm. It is a place prepared for those angels who rebelled and those who do not want to be with him.
I think this is the jist of it I've kind of understood about it over time.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (Jesus).
Eternal life is depicted in terms of a resurrection. This is a partial list of O. T. verses on this subject:
1 Samuel 2: 6
Job 14:14-15
Job 19: 26
Psalm 49
Isaiah 26: 19
Isaiah 65:20-25
Also:
Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
This one is pretty clear about a resurrection of the just and the unjust.
Eze 37:12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.
Based on this I would guess they weren’t expecting heaven, but a final place as Israel on earth.
Christ, after his death, triumphantly went down and preached to the spirits that were in prison (I believe these were the ones who left their habitiation and caused the havoc in Gen. 6:4 leading to the flood) triumphing over them, and emptied out paradise, taking those firstfruits with him to be with him. He locked the gates of hell to the believer and no believer will ever go there. That's why it is said, the gates of hell will not prevail against his church - or called out ones.
I think when I say in the future it will be a place where God is not, we know hades (hell) is thrown into the lake of fire at the end. I believe fire is similar but not literal - its something that can't be described and God uses that. I was curious, well, where does this lake of fire go? It was interesting to see it is never destroyed - hades, sheol, hell is, what ever you want to call it is - thrown in this lake, but not the lake itself. And, I believe it will be outside God's realm. It is a place prepared for those angels who rebelled and those who do not want to be with him.
Okay. Thanks! But, what do you mean by emptied out paradise and taking the firstfruits?
Also, have been sitting through a study on Revelation quite different than any other. Has a lot to do with the type of writing and that the main message is HOPE. It has made me consider that what I always thought of as literal may not be quite that. So, I'm clueless about the lake for the time being. We haven't gotten to it yet. I'm curious for an explanation. Not that I believe everything....
Glad we're on the same page with some stuff though. :D
I'll get back to you on the emptying of paradise and the firstfruits, I forgot where I got that. I haven't thought of it in awhile.
Yes, Revelation is just awesome, it is about hope - its a wonderful hope for the Christian to have. Its written to and for the Church (22:16 - I Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony FOR the churches), that our joy may be full.
We are also told, blessed is he who reads this prophecy - doesn't say you have to understand it, just read it.
It then says blessed are those who hear it and "take it to heart" - why? "Because the time is near."
It is amazing to me how many Christians have really begun to read, study and understand this book in the last few years. I believe its God working in peoples hearts because, the time is near. What was once a "mystery" has become not hard to understand at all.
I also like how you have the message to the churches (present), then in 4:1, we fast forward to the future "Come up here" "I will show you what must take place after this - future.
Yeah, neat stuff you shared. I guess I just learned more about the apocolyptic type of writing this year than ever before. There was always so much hype about Revelation that I didn't really want to study it, but last year I read Bullinger's commentary on it and even if he's wrong, boy, did he ever give it LOTS OF THOUGHT. Anyway, we pick it back up in January. It'll be interesting. Thanks again!
Bullinger's commentary is excellent. I've read several others over the years. The one that I love though, is written by a guy named Donald Barnhouse. I couldn't put it down, plus, he does an amazing job showing in Revelation, exactly how the corresponding OT prophecy is fullfilled. I've recommended his book "Revelation" to others and they have really enjoyed it. Its available on Amazon in softback.
Is it as big as Bullinger's? Good grief, that took me almost a year to get through. Of course, I wasn't just reading that. I probably read two or three things at once. Love to read .... Will look into it. Oh, I get books on a site called Zooba.com. All their books are 9.99 and that includes shipping! The best deal I've ever found for new stuff. Of course, I read lots of fiction, but they have all sorts of categories.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (Jesus).
Eternal life is depicted in terms of a resurrection. This is a partial list of O. T. verses on this subject:
1 Samuel 2: 6
Hannah's prayer
Job 14:14-15
Job's, reply to Zophar. Interesting that he questions if a man dies, will he live again?
Job 19: 26
Job's reply to Bildad. Definitely implies resurrection.
Psalm 49
Seems to indicate that both rich and poor wind up in the same place, the grave. But redemption will follow.
Isaiah 26: 19
See v. 14. Two distinct types of people spoken of. One will not raise up.
Isaiah 65:20-25
Had to go back to v. 17 to get a better understanding. This is talking about a new heaven and earth. But only 100 years?
Also:
Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
This one is pretty clear about a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Agreed.
Eze 37:12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.
Based on this I would guess they weren’t expecting heaven, but a final place as Israel on earth. Yes, resurrection and restoration.
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Psalm 139
1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.
20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Perhaps it's Hell in God as well as heaven and more.
No perhaps about it imo. It's both. In God and God in.
And it looks like an "inside job" to me.
With some eternal help.
So you got more to think.............
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Sunesis
I forgot about that verse CMan - I concede.
Since none of us have ascended to heaven (yet :)), nor hell, I always took that to mean, if I'm in a dangerous or hellish situation - yea though I walk through the valley of death - then he is there, wherever I go, in good or in bad. He is always with me whereever, or in whatever situation I might be.
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irisheyes
As far as I have studied, there was neither heaven (as we see it today) nor hell in the Old Testament. Those guys didn't even know what eternal life was. Hell was sheol or the unseen state in that Psalm. Jonah 2:2; he cried from the belly of hell (same word). I don't think this was the hell we picture, eternal fire, etc. I resent your implication that you are so much more knowledgeable and we just have to keep on looking. What? You can't share your knowledge?
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Sunesis
Agreed Irisheyes. There were two sections to sheol, or the grave, in the OT - the "pit" where people await judgment and paradise - for the righteous where those who believed and looked forward to the Messiah/Christ went before he was here, which was separated by a wide gulf.
Christ, after his death, triumphantly went down and preached to the spirits that were in prison (I believe these were the ones who left their habitiation and caused the havoc in Gen. 6:4 leading to the flood) triumphing over them, and emptied out paradise, taking those firstfruits with him to be with him. He locked the gates of hell to the believer and no believer will ever go there. That's why it is said, the gates of hell will not prevail against his church - or called out ones.
I think when I say in the future it will be a place where God is not, we know hades (hell) is thrown into the lake of fire at the end. I believe fire is similar but not literal - its something that can't be described and God uses that. I was curious, well, where does this lake of fire go? It was interesting to see it is never destroyed - hades, sheol, hell is, what ever you want to call it is - thrown in this lake, but not the lake itself. And, I believe it will be outside God's realm. It is a place prepared for those angels who rebelled and those who do not want to be with him.
I think this is the jist of it I've kind of understood about it over time.
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another spot
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (Jesus).
Eternal life is depicted in terms of a resurrection. This is a partial list of O. T. verses on this subject:
1 Samuel 2: 6
Job 14:14-15
Job 19: 26
Psalm 49
Isaiah 26: 19
Isaiah 65:20-25
Also:
Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
This one is pretty clear about a resurrection of the just and the unjust.
Eze 37:12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.
Based on this I would guess they weren’t expecting heaven, but a final place as Israel on earth.
Hope that helps something.
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irisheyes
Okay. Thanks! But, what do you mean by emptied out paradise and taking the firstfruits?
Also, have been sitting through a study on Revelation quite different than any other. Has a lot to do with the type of writing and that the main message is HOPE. It has made me consider that what I always thought of as literal may not be quite that. So, I'm clueless about the lake for the time being. We haven't gotten to it yet. I'm curious for an explanation. Not that I believe everything....
Glad we're on the same page with some stuff though. :D
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irisheyes
A.S. Thanks. I'll look up those scriptures ASAP.
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Sunesis
I'll get back to you on the emptying of paradise and the firstfruits, I forgot where I got that. I haven't thought of it in awhile.
Yes, Revelation is just awesome, it is about hope - its a wonderful hope for the Christian to have. Its written to and for the Church (22:16 - I Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony FOR the churches), that our joy may be full.
We are also told, blessed is he who reads this prophecy - doesn't say you have to understand it, just read it.
It then says blessed are those who hear it and "take it to heart" - why? "Because the time is near."
It is amazing to me how many Christians have really begun to read, study and understand this book in the last few years. I believe its God working in peoples hearts because, the time is near. What was once a "mystery" has become not hard to understand at all.
I also like how you have the message to the churches (present), then in 4:1, we fast forward to the future "Come up here" "I will show you what must take place after this - future.
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irisheyes
Yeah, neat stuff you shared. I guess I just learned more about the apocolyptic type of writing this year than ever before. There was always so much hype about Revelation that I didn't really want to study it, but last year I read Bullinger's commentary on it and even if he's wrong, boy, did he ever give it LOTS OF THOUGHT. Anyway, we pick it back up in January. It'll be interesting. Thanks again!
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Sunesis
Bullinger's commentary is excellent. I've read several others over the years. The one that I love though, is written by a guy named Donald Barnhouse. I couldn't put it down, plus, he does an amazing job showing in Revelation, exactly how the corresponding OT prophecy is fullfilled. I've recommended his book "Revelation" to others and they have really enjoyed it. Its available on Amazon in softback.
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irisheyes
Is it as big as Bullinger's? Good grief, that took me almost a year to get through. Of course, I wasn't just reading that. I probably read two or three things at once. Love to read .... Will look into it. Oh, I get books on a site called Zooba.com. All their books are 9.99 and that includes shipping! The best deal I've ever found for new stuff. Of course, I read lots of fiction, but they have all sorts of categories.
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irisheyes
Sunny: My hubby just told me he has that book on Revelation and got about half way through it. So, I won't have to buy it.
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irisheyes
Some great stuff. Thanks!
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