Is there a difference between what you are explaining happened to your brother and say a "fortune teller" or a "hypnotist"? I went to a fortune teller right before I took PFAL and she knew stuff about me, my dad, etc. So, the spirits told her, right?
Well, what about hypnotism?
Like getting hypnotized to quit smoking or to act like a quacking duck or something? Isn't it just mind control? Couldn't a spirit tell your mind someone's name? Especially while experiencing something like a seizure. You aren't exactly in control. How do you tell reality from un? It just doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me, unless you are referring to being out of your body? I have an aunt who does it all the time. Awake. At least she says she does. What a freak!
LOL
Well I guess you're right Irish. I demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.
“If demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.”—jbarrax
Are you sure about that? Is it Scriptural or twi doctrine (and non-Scriptural)? Can d. s. be discerned by the five senses? Can you name one incident in the Bible that describes or supports this in any way? Can you justifiably accuse others of possession or influence without direct revelation or Scriptural backup?
Hypnosis, for example. Twi doctrine is that is possession. Is that Scriptural? No it isn’t. Could there be another explanation? Yes.
Truth or twi superstition?
You have a fine mind, Jerry. I am familiar with your work on PFAL. I am just suggesting you apply it in this category. You know me as Sunlight 8. I hope you are well.
“If demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that [/b]
Hypnosis, for example. Twi doctrine is that is possession. Is that Scriptural? No it isn’t. Could there be another explanation? Yes.
Page 20 0f the Advanced Class syllabus states that alcoholism is caused by a DS named Leviathan.
I don't believe that "Leviathan" is an actual being but rather a symbolic representation of something very real that takes place in the human psyche. Perhaps it even interacts at a so-called spiritual level. I don't know.
Even so, I think it is representative of something real, though not a "being" or spiritual "entity".
So then, even though it may really exist in a person's life, it is idiotic to think that simply ordering it to "be gone" will penetrate the complex network that surrounds the human mind.
WS: You may be entirely right; even if I don't quite understand everything you're conveying. But, when dealing with my wayward son, we talked with a doc who believed alcoholism/drug abuse was a disease because a normal person (like myself ) could smoke a j and get hi and that's about it; whereas, an addict would smoke a j and it would feel more like an orgasm to them than just a hi, making it much harder for such a person to stay away from their drug of choice. That was the only time anyone ever came close to convincing me alcoholism and the like could actually be a disease. Not trying to get way off the topic here, but I totally get what you mean about our complex network surrounding the mind. Also reminds me of another post talking about energy. Our heart actually has electric stuff going on. My friend found out some bad stuff about her husband and had a "heart attack" which required shocking her heart back into the correct rhythm. They said her electric wiring got crossed from the "shock" of what her husband was up to. Me, I'd justa said adios to the loser.
Hello Irisheyes :). I don't look at it as scary. I think of it more like, God has done two things: 1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has.
That's why, as he says, every man has eternity in his soul. He will not kill that which he created.
But he will honor a person's will. Love/hate - two sides of the same coin. Those that love him and his Son will be with him. Those who hate him and want nothing to do with them, their will and wish will also be honored. He will not ever "possess" (for lack of a better word) someone and override their free will and demand they choose him.
I ask those who dislike him - yet who for some reason, think its unfair that they will not be transformed into a new creation and spend eternity with him after a lifetime of rejecting him - if you dislike/hate him now, why on earth do you think you would want to spend an eternity with him? You'd hate it and Him for eternity.
Its not "unfair" at all. Its God honoring your freewill choice, whatever you may decide.
Irish: you don’t know me very well. I’m not an attacking type poster (if you are thinking that). I ask just you read what follows with an open mind. What you do is up to you.
Is there any Scriptural basis for saying that people who are hypnotized are possessed? Anything other than twi doctrine?
Twi’s basis for alcoholism as possession is weak: “drinks up the Nile” re: Leviathan. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just not specifically Scriptural. Even if that verse refers to alcoholism, without specific revelation it would be impossible to know. For instance, not all people who are deaf and dumb are possessed.
Another example I can think of off the top of my head is depression. Twi claimed this was possession (no Scriptural backup). It has been medically proven this is often caused by a lack of serotonin or dopamine (chemicals). These individuals are often susceptible to alcohol and nicotine addiction as they mimic the presence of these chemical shortages. Bipolar individuals also have chemical imbalances. One drug used for treatment is Zoloft, (although more primary is Lithium which is also used for epilepsy). It alters the way serotonin operates in the brain. Could it sometimes be caused by possession? Maybe.
I am suggesting it is possible for things to go on we don’t understand to not be possession.
There is a relationship between hypnotism and sedation. (From that point of view it is nifty Irish brought that up). According to Wikipedia:
“Another physiological definition states that the theta state is required for therapeutic change. The theta state is associated with hypnosis for surgery, hypnoanesthesia (the use of hypnosis to numb sensation of pain), and hypnoanalgesia (the use of hypnosis to decrease sensitivity to pain), which occur more readily in the theta and delta states. Anesthetics, sedatives and hypnotics disrupt neuronal synchrony, thought to underlie theta waves, in both humans and animals, as well as in simple neuronal circuits.[3] It should be noted that hypnoanalgesia of the skin is a common test for somnambulism. Arm and body catalepsy are one of a few tests done to determine readiness for these surgical applications.”
The article suggests hypnosis is not an understood or agreed upon subject. Anesthesia itself is not fully understood. Some drugs prevent consciousness others don’t. Some prevent memory. The ones that prevent consciousness are a major chemical assault on the mind and body that occasionally is so severe it results in death, hence the requirement to sign a waiver. Some of these drugs result in the patient being unable to breathe on their own (thus even brain stem function is stopped). Under these circumstances I don’t have much trouble understanding someone having NDE experiences or memories. Is it the result of chemical and physical assault or possession? Is it possible some folks have similar NDE experiences because they took the same drug? Has that possibility been looked into? Or maybe it’s related to the trauma itself?
Just thinking out loud: I’ve read serotonin and dopamine disorders happen either from heredity or as a result of childhood abuse (or both). Also immune system diseases can happen that way. The human body reacts in powerful ways to emotional trauma. Ulcers happen as a result of prolonged stress. It seems possible if not probable to me for severe physical trauma to cause some strange things. Perhaps it affects the brain in categories, such as dopamine deficiency causing certain characteristic emotional behavior that is not necessarily the same in all individuals or experienced by all, depending on the particular brain chemistry of the individual and how it reacts to the drugs and/or trauma (not necessarily drug induced).
I think it’s also possible for this level of trauma to cause the “soul” to leave the body (does it actually happen? I don’t know). From a physical point of view they are nearly dead. Are their NDE experiences reliable sources of information? Not to me. Not under the circumstances. But maybe.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to use critical thinking skills outside the box of twi…as usual when I post it’s nothing personal and doesn’t matter at all to me if anyone agrees or not. I don’t post to be agreed with or get an ego boost. Just my thoughts at the moment. There is nothing sacred to me about my thoughts. I do like to think, however.
“If demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.”—jbarrax
Are you sure about that? Is it Scriptural or twi doctrine (and non-Scriptural)? Can d. s. be discerned by the five senses? Can you name one incident in the Bible that describes or supports this in any way? Can you justifiably accuse others of possession or influence without direct revelation or Scriptural backup?
Hypnosis, for example. Twi doctrine is that is possession. Is that Scriptural? No it isn’t. Could there be another explanation? Yes.
Truth or twi superstition?
You have a fine mind, Jerry. I am familiar with your work on PFAL. I am just suggesting you apply it in this category. You know me as Sunlight 8. I hope you are well.
Hi Spot/Sunlight. Hope you are well too. :-)
Slow down there old friend. I said, "IF demons can cause hallucination...they might be able to convey information..." I'm talking about possiblities, not making declarations of absolute truth.
I don't think I accused anyone of being possessed.
But
if I had, that's not the same as accusing them of being evil. I think the perjorative aspect of that came from its misuse by TWI. Mary Magdalene had seven devils in her but there's nothing in the Scripture that implies that it was because she was evil. In fact, I remember VP teaching in the Advanced Class that Jesus Christ never treated a possessed person as a willful sinner. Too bad the leadership didn't put that into practice and treat people with compassion and grace.
But I digress
Having a demon invade a perons' mind or body is not necessarily a sign that that individual is morally corrupt, especially if the devil or demon gains access through injury. He or she is merely physically weak. Demons, like natural parasites and predators, look for weaknesses.
I believe God made the human mind and body with basic physical and spiritual protections. Our skin protects us from infectious diseases. If your skin is broken, your body can be contaminated by viruses germs, etc. that are otherwise powerless to harm you. Likewise, I believe a normal healthy mind has built in protections. Demons can't just go hopping around jumping in and out of people's minds at will. The person's mind has to be altered or they have to willingly invite the spirit in some way. This is why drugs are often used in witchcraft and why people who experiment with recreational drugs often suffer drastic, permanent changes in personality or temperament.
Is all of this in the Scripture? No. Most of what I believe about spirits (devils, demons or whatever you care to call them) is based on my experiences backed by the Scripture and some Way doctrine (with some Derek Prince thrown in for good measure). Because of the lessons learned during the PFAL review (with which you helped, btw), I no longer limit my beliefs to chapter and verse. Some things can be proven from the Scripture, some can't. The Scripture takes both sides of some very important issues. At some point, you have to close the book, open your heart to the Father, ask some questions and trust that He's giving you the right answers. As I said, I may be wrong. But again, I merely posed the possiblity that out of body experiences may be caused by deomonic invasions of an injured person's brain.
Peace
JerryB
Hello Irisheyes :). I don't look at it as scary. I think of it more like, God has done two things: 1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has.
That's why, as he says, every man has eternity in his soul. He will not kill that which he created.
But he will honor a person's will. Love/hate - two sides of the same coin. Those that love him and his Son will be with him. Those who hate him and want nothing to do with them, their will and wish will also be honored. He will not ever "possess" (for lack of a better word) someone and override their free will and demand they choose him.
I ask those who dislike him - yet who for some reason, think its unfair that they will not be transformed into a new creation and spend eternity with him after a lifetime of rejecting him - if you dislike/hate him now, why on earth do you think you would want to spend an eternity with him? You'd hate it and Him for eternity.
Its not "unfair" at all. Its God honoring your freewill choice, whatever you may decide.
You raise good points. A lot of debate around the NDE experience centers on the possible affects of anesthesia and drugs. The lack of oxygen to the brain common in flatlined patients is another factor. For these reasons, most M.D.'s are very skeptical about the validity of these apparent otherworldly visits. Atwater's book includes a pretty thorough examination of all of these arguments and possibilities.
Alcoholism is a synthetic firing of endorphins with the side effect of killing the natural endorphin firing system. Killing brain cells. As well as other things that are effected, including the rest of the body. If it continues long enough it will kill you.
It's not possession, it's an occurrence that happens, if it goes unmoderated or unchecked.
The natural endorphin system will not harm anyone.
But if alcohol is used consistently it stops this natural process,
being replaced by the synthetic means of alcohol, addiction occurs,
and can only be fired by alcohol.
But if one can stop long enough with help this natural process will return.
Sorry, Jerry. I reckon I read your posts too quickly.
I’ve been deeply involved in reviewing twi teaching in this area for the past several weeks. Most of it doesn’t hold up to my satisfaction. I haven’t made up my mind what I think about it in general yet.
Re chapter and verse: twi was so rabid about that yet accepted (we) so much without it (where I’ve found most things that I believe to be in error). Other things out of context. The only way for me to wade through it is to ask myself what does it say? What doesn’t it say? Is this Scriptural, or something vp made up? I’m sure there will come a time when I won’t be as insistent about it, but it won’t be until after I’m done with this process. I took a 7 yr. break from it which is why I’m just now finishing up. I will say it is a heck of a lot easier with more time and space between me and twi than it was back when we were working on pfal!!!
In any case, thanks for clarifying. Carry on, lol.
That’s pretty deep, Danny. I’ve read the point about concentrating on the four on each side before (yes I thought it true and profound), but just the way you worded it really hit my heart in a much more profound way. I think it was couching it in terms of context. Insightful. Thank you so much!!
Also: Sunesis: Awesome posts!! I enjoyed them very much.
Hello Irisheyes :). I don't look at it as scary. I think of it more like, God has done two things: 1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has.
But he will honor a person's will. Love/hate - two sides of the same coin. Those that love him and his Son will be with him. Those who hate him and want nothing to do with them, their will and wish will also be honored. Its not "unfair" at all. Its God honoring your freewill choice, whatever you may decide.
Sun:
Don't remember saying it was unfair. I totally agree with you. Thanks for your input.
freewill is an element that will melt with the fervent heat
Irish: you don’t know me very well. I’m not an attacking type poster (if you are thinking that). I ask just you read what follows with an open mind. What you do is up to you.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to use critical thinking skills outside the box of twi…as usual when I post it’s nothing personal and doesn’t matter at all to me if anyone agrees or not. I don’t post to be agreed with or get an ego boost. Just my thoughts at the moment. There is nothing sacred to me about my thoughts. I do like to think, however.
AS: I'm glad you like to think! And you do such a good job at it, too. I thoroughly enjoyed your response and agree with it. I never did buy the alcholism, depression, cancer, etc. explanation as devil spirits. Perhaps you were around after I was? I've been done with TWI for some 20 years. I can't even imagine opening up a PFAL book or syllabus or anything. I hardly care except for the fact that I was so duped for so long as so many others. I don't know if you went back and read the beginning of this discussion, but I am trying to write a book on death from a biblical perspective. Mainly, my soapbox is that God gets blamed for so many things that aren't necessarily His "fault." Does my search include stuff I learned so long ago? Yes, as someone recently said on another thread, something about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I don't think much of anything is either all good or all bad. Same with TWI. Of course, the material I might believe to be correct from there may have belonged to someone who never even saw a green card, huh? Anyway, maybe now we both know each other a little better.
I believe God made the human mind and body with basic physical and spiritual protections. Our skin protects us from infectious diseases. If your skin is broken, your body can be contaminated by viruses germs, etc. that are otherwise powerless to harm you. Likewise, I believe a normal healthy mind has built in protections. Demons can't just go hopping around jumping in and out of people's minds at will. The person's mind has to be altered or they have to willingly invite the spirit in some way. This is why drugs are often used in witchcraft and why people who experiment with recreational drugs often suffer drastic, permanent changes in personality or temperament.
Some things can be proven from the Scripture, some can't. The Scripture takes both sides of some very important issues. At some point, you have to close the book, open your heart to the Father, ask some questions and trust that He's giving you the right answers.
J: Thanks for the above. Especially liked your comments about protection. Also, that the scripture takes both sides of some very important issues. That is how I feel about death and that I what I am trying to figure out.
Irisheyes, the "unfair" wasn't about you. I know you didn't say that. Its a generic thing many people say about God, how "unfair" he is.
You know, how dare he give people a heads up of what's coming, they don't like it, so its, unfair. How can God do something like that? How can he "torture" people (if they read the Word, they'd know he doesn't torture - in fact, he's not even there - its a place where he is not), etc. I was using it in a generic sense, something that is very commonly said.
Alcoholism is a synthetic firing of endorphins with the side effect of killing the natural endorphin firing system. Killing brain cells. As well as other things that are effected, including the rest of the body. If it continues long enough it will kill you.
It's not possession, it's an occurrence that happens, if it goes unmoderated or unchecked.
The natural endorphin system will not harm anyone.
But if alcohol is used consistently it stops this natural process,
being replaced by the synthetic means of alcohol, addiction occurs,
and can only be fired by alcohol.
But if one can stop long enough with help this natural process will return.
CMan: Thanks and hats off to ya. You made it make sense.
"1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has."
I like your two premises and that you are looking at this from a theological perspective instead of a just a strict Biblical interpretation perspective.
One thing that we never chose was whether to come into this world or not. There are some groups that believe that we did choose, as eternal souls, to come to earth and have a human experience, live and learn and grow. This is a reincarnation view. I don't like that one much.
Your point number two I feel lacks though. There is no place that God is not. We can not spend eternity "apart from God" We can not spend eternity "banished" from the creator. God is everywhere present and wherever we go from here............there God is.
That being said, there could well be, and I believe there is, room for growth in the next realm. After this experience there will be more with the same good creator.
What does believing this type of theology do for us in the here and now? Jesus brought heaven from "there" to "here" as He walked the earth. We too can bring heaven from a future place of maybes, to a present place of walking now in the goodness of heaven, with no fear of what the future holds, knowing that it is in the hands of a intelligent and loving creator. We bring heaven here and now by seeing the unseen, and through our beliefs in the spiritual, and as we live this spiritual reality, then the "fruit of the Spirit" grows in our lives.
I too used to be a Universalist, like you. I finally had to discard it after I read what the Bible and Christ say about "hell" - I hate that word. But, if I was going to be honest, I finally had to discard universalism.
For my point no. 2, see Eccl. 3:11.
So, what does my point of view, that there is a heaven and hell, do for people now?
Well, if one believes in a "hell" - where the Bible says its located, what Christ says about it, what the Bible says about it, then, hopefully, a person will make a decision now, in this life for or against Christ. It cannot be put off.
If you believe in Universalism, why, you don't need to make a decision. Why worry, if all will be pardoned in the next?
What universalism fails to take into account, is that: to enter God's coming kingdom, you must be a new CREATION. You must be sinless. You must be Holy.
Only Christ can clothe us with the righteousness and holiness needed to enter into His Kingdom - and that, only if we will it - desire Him and this Life He promised.
A universalist believes that somehow later, they will spend some time in Hell, then be released and enter God's Kingdom.
Not true. Those where God is not are not "new creations." They are still "unregenerate." They do not have a "new nature."
Even after being chained in Hell for 1,000 years during the new millenium to come, Satan, let out, still did not change his stripes. He again foments rebellion - that is his nature. That is mankind's fallen nature - rebellion. Only Christ can change it and make us a new creation with a new nature.
Look at it this way: God cannot abide sin and unholiness in his presence.
If I had a neighbor who robbed, cheated, stole, murdered, why would I let him into my house?
Why would God let corruption into the holy of holies, heaven?
He will not.
There is nothing unjust about it.
Nothing is going to change their nature.
Its nice for people to think that God will, against their own wills, that he will change them some day - but that is not what the Word says.
In the Universalist way, no one ever has to make a decision, since - hey, it will work out in the future. Thus, why even worry about God, his message, his Christ now in this life? No need to.
I consider it an "apostate" Christianity.
This is man's day, I sometimes think we think, how dare God judge? We forget, and as I Peter says, there are scoffers thinking nothing's ever going to change. Things will continue just as they are.
Lately I've been reading up on Apostasy - fascinating. Also, when changing my mind I looked up "hell", pit, abyss, etc. There's lots in there - much more than I ever realized. Hmm... I wonder why we were never taught this stuff.
Interesting conversation. Think about John 3:16: ....that whosever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." It only stands to reason, therefore, that some will perish, which appears to be the opposite of everlasting life (to me anyway). Just thought about that yesterday. What exactly does perish mean? And, you cannot just erase believes. This verse says everlasting life is conditional. If with our free will we decide not to believe, then our will will be done. (As someone, was it you Sunny?, already pointed out.) I must say I think Sunny has my vote on this. God's got a pretty good vocabulary. I would think He could've worded it differently if it was so. It says somewhere in Romans (I think) that nature alone should bring us to believe and that therefore some are without excuse in not believing. And, Patrick and/or Sara: there is also the idea that there will be some in heaven and some on earth when all is said and done. Obviously, there will be different ways to judge different people.
It is interesting that sunesis pegged be as a univirsalist. I did cruse through universalism for a time in my Bible bound Christian walk. There are three strong theologies within Christainity for where the individual will spend eternity. Heaven and hell..........Heaven and annihilation.....wich is what VPW taught.......and universalism.
I believed in annihilation for many years.
I believed in universalism for about 5 years.
A belief is a powerful thing. A belief has a great effect on how we live our lives in the here and now. Universalism helps the Christian believer to not worry about a future heaven or hell, so they can concentrate on the present life in the heavens with Christ, here and now.
There is a whole sect of Christianity that teaches Biblical Universlism and they handle the tough verses that you refer to. A google search or "Christian Universalism" will give you a lot of food for thought. I'm not talking about "Uitarian Universalism" wich is not really a Bible based universalism.
A word study of "perish" might show some interesting results.
Like I said though, a belief is a powerful thing. Perishing can mean many things. The interpretation has a great deal to do with the theology you hold.
Volition allows us to beleive whatever we want, and through trial and error, we have chosen what to believe. My interpretation of John 3:16 is that we "shall not be perishing" a present reality just as "eternal life" is a present reality.
I've found that we can make the Bible say whatever the hell we want it to say depending on our theological stance and beliefs. TWI was the best at this that I had ever seen.
I'm not living this life as though the rewards come in the future. The rewards are now for "living in Christ", and the future will take care of itself. If we live spiritual now, and reap the fruit of spiritual living in the present, then there is no fear of what will come in the future. None of us know for sure what the future heaven and hell will be. Some of us stick to our Biblical interpretations and this has a result on our lives in the present.
Really the present is what matters. Life is what matters. Life in the now. Death will come to us all. I don't look at it as a friend or an enemy. It is a fact of life. I choose to believe that Life overcomes death just as Christ overcame death. Life trumps, and this belief has great effect on how I will address death when it comes my way.
BTW I am no longer a Christian universalist. Christian Universalism is Biblical teaching. I feel that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I only use the Bible when it lines up with what I am experiencing in the present moment. I spiritualize the bookand enjoy my private interpretations, For "God is working in me, both to will, and to do, of His good pleasure".
What I think is so cool, is that as we love God, He continues to teach us and we can look back, see what we believed, and then how the Holy Spirit gently guides us into a more perfect truth, or whole truth. The progression of learning over time is very interesting to look back on.
It is a gentle journey where we looked at something, believed it then, but as we are willing to learn, He gently shows us why something is not right and where to look next.
We are all on our own journey. It will be interesting to see what we have learned about things a few years from now.
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Well I guess you're right Irish. I demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.
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“If demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.”—jbarrax
Are you sure about that? Is it Scriptural or twi doctrine (and non-Scriptural)? Can d. s. be discerned by the five senses? Can you name one incident in the Bible that describes or supports this in any way? Can you justifiably accuse others of possession or influence without direct revelation or Scriptural backup?
Hypnosis, for example. Twi doctrine is that is possession. Is that Scriptural? No it isn’t. Could there be another explanation? Yes.
Truth or twi superstition?
You have a fine mind, Jerry. I am familiar with your work on PFAL. I am just suggesting you apply it in this category. You know me as Sunlight 8. I hope you are well.
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irisheyes
What might that explanation be?
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irisheyes
WS: You may be entirely right; even if I don't quite understand everything you're conveying. But, when dealing with my wayward son, we talked with a doc who believed alcoholism/drug abuse was a disease because a normal person (like myself
) could smoke a j and get hi and that's about it; whereas, an addict would smoke a j and it would feel more like an orgasm to them than just a hi, making it much harder for such a person to stay away from their drug of choice. That was the only time anyone ever came close to convincing me alcoholism and the like could actually be a disease. Not trying to get way off the topic here, but I totally get what you mean about our complex network surrounding the mind. Also reminds me of another post talking about energy. Our heart actually has electric stuff going on. My friend found out some bad stuff about her husband and had a "heart attack" which required shocking her heart back into the correct rhythm. They said her electric wiring got crossed from the "shock" of what her husband was up to. Me, I'd justa said adios to the loser. 
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Sunesis
Hello Irisheyes :). I don't look at it as scary. I think of it more like, God has done two things: 1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has.
That's why, as he says, every man has eternity in his soul. He will not kill that which he created.
But he will honor a person's will. Love/hate - two sides of the same coin. Those that love him and his Son will be with him. Those who hate him and want nothing to do with them, their will and wish will also be honored. He will not ever "possess" (for lack of a better word) someone and override their free will and demand they choose him.
I ask those who dislike him - yet who for some reason, think its unfair that they will not be transformed into a new creation and spend eternity with him after a lifetime of rejecting him - if you dislike/hate him now, why on earth do you think you would want to spend an eternity with him? You'd hate it and Him for eternity.
Its not "unfair" at all. Its God honoring your freewill choice, whatever you may decide.
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cman
freewill is an element that will melt with the fervent heat
as love and hate, into and changing into the new
and really, who's will are we really doing
our will has been proven to not stand
so freewill to me is a waste of words
there is freedom to choose
but who put the options there?
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Irish: you don’t know me very well. I’m not an attacking type poster (if you are thinking that). I ask just you read what follows with an open mind. What you do is up to you.
Is there any Scriptural basis for saying that people who are hypnotized are possessed? Anything other than twi doctrine?
Twi’s basis for alcoholism as possession is weak: “drinks up the Nile” re: Leviathan. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just not specifically Scriptural. Even if that verse refers to alcoholism, without specific revelation it would be impossible to know. For instance, not all people who are deaf and dumb are possessed.
Another example I can think of off the top of my head is depression. Twi claimed this was possession (no Scriptural backup). It has been medically proven this is often caused by a lack of serotonin or dopamine (chemicals). These individuals are often susceptible to alcohol and nicotine addiction as they mimic the presence of these chemical shortages. Bipolar individuals also have chemical imbalances. One drug used for treatment is Zoloft, (although more primary is Lithium which is also used for epilepsy). It alters the way serotonin operates in the brain. Could it sometimes be caused by possession? Maybe.
I am suggesting it is possible for things to go on we don’t understand to not be possession.
There is a relationship between hypnotism and sedation. (From that point of view it is nifty Irish brought that up). According to Wikipedia:
“Another physiological definition states that the theta state is required for therapeutic change. The theta state is associated with hypnosis for surgery, hypnoanesthesia (the use of hypnosis to numb sensation of pain), and hypnoanalgesia (the use of hypnosis to decrease sensitivity to pain), which occur more readily in the theta and delta states. Anesthetics, sedatives and hypnotics disrupt neuronal synchrony, thought to underlie theta waves, in both humans and animals, as well as in simple neuronal circuits.[3] It should be noted that hypnoanalgesia of the skin is a common test for somnambulism. Arm and body catalepsy are one of a few tests done to determine readiness for these surgical applications.”
The article suggests hypnosis is not an understood or agreed upon subject. Anesthesia itself is not fully understood. Some drugs prevent consciousness others don’t. Some prevent memory. The ones that prevent consciousness are a major chemical assault on the mind and body that occasionally is so severe it results in death, hence the requirement to sign a waiver. Some of these drugs result in the patient being unable to breathe on their own (thus even brain stem function is stopped). Under these circumstances I don’t have much trouble understanding someone having NDE experiences or memories. Is it the result of chemical and physical assault or possession? Is it possible some folks have similar NDE experiences because they took the same drug? Has that possibility been looked into? Or maybe it’s related to the trauma itself?
Just thinking out loud: I’ve read serotonin and dopamine disorders happen either from heredity or as a result of childhood abuse (or both). Also immune system diseases can happen that way. The human body reacts in powerful ways to emotional trauma. Ulcers happen as a result of prolonged stress. It seems possible if not probable to me for severe physical trauma to cause some strange things. Perhaps it affects the brain in categories, such as dopamine deficiency causing certain characteristic emotional behavior that is not necessarily the same in all individuals or experienced by all, depending on the particular brain chemistry of the individual and how it reacts to the drugs and/or trauma (not necessarily drug induced).
I think it’s also possible for this level of trauma to cause the “soul” to leave the body (does it actually happen? I don’t know). From a physical point of view they are nearly dead. Are their NDE experiences reliable sources of information? Not to me. Not under the circumstances. But maybe.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to use critical thinking skills outside the box of twi…as usual when I post it’s nothing personal and doesn’t matter at all to me if anyone agrees or not. I don’t post to be agreed with or get an ego boost. Just my thoughts at the moment. There is nothing sacred to me about my thoughts. I do like to think, however.
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Jbarrax
Hi Spot/Sunlight. Hope you are well too. :-)
Slow down there old friend. I said, "IF demons can cause hallucination...they might be able to convey information..." I'm talking about possiblities, not making declarations of absolute truth.
I don't think I accused anyone of being possessed.
But
if I had, that's not the same as accusing them of being evil. I think the perjorative aspect of that came from its misuse by TWI. Mary Magdalene had seven devils in her but there's nothing in the Scripture that implies that it was because she was evil. In fact, I remember VP teaching in the Advanced Class that Jesus Christ never treated a possessed person as a willful sinner. Too bad the leadership didn't put that into practice and treat people with compassion and grace.
But I digress
Having a demon invade a perons' mind or body is not necessarily a sign that that individual is morally corrupt, especially if the devil or demon gains access through injury. He or she is merely physically weak. Demons, like natural parasites and predators, look for weaknesses.
I believe God made the human mind and body with basic physical and spiritual protections. Our skin protects us from infectious diseases. If your skin is broken, your body can be contaminated by viruses germs, etc. that are otherwise powerless to harm you. Likewise, I believe a normal healthy mind has built in protections. Demons can't just go hopping around jumping in and out of people's minds at will. The person's mind has to be altered or they have to willingly invite the spirit in some way. This is why drugs are often used in witchcraft and why people who experiment with recreational drugs often suffer drastic, permanent changes in personality or temperament.
Is all of this in the Scripture? No. Most of what I believe about spirits (devils, demons or whatever you care to call them) is based on my experiences backed by the Scripture and some Way doctrine (with some Derek Prince thrown in for good measure). Because of the lessons learned during the PFAL review (with which you helped, btw), I no longer limit my beliefs to chapter and verse. Some things can be proven from the Scripture, some can't. The Scripture takes both sides of some very important issues. At some point, you have to close the book, open your heart to the Father, ask some questions and trust that He's giving you the right answers. As I said, I may be wrong. But again, I merely posed the possiblity that out of body experiences may be caused by deomonic invasions of an injured person's brain.
Peace
JerryB
Nice perspective Sunesis. :)
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Jbarrax
Another Spot
You raise good points. A lot of debate around the NDE experience centers on the possible affects of anesthesia and drugs. The lack of oxygen to the brain common in flatlined patients is another factor. For these reasons, most M.D.'s are very skeptical about the validity of these apparent otherworldly visits. Atwater's book includes a pretty thorough examination of all of these arguments and possibilities.
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cman
Alcoholism is a synthetic firing of endorphins with the side effect of killing the natural endorphin firing system. Killing brain cells. As well as other things that are effected, including the rest of the body. If it continues long enough it will kill you.
It's not possession, it's an occurrence that happens, if it goes unmoderated or unchecked.
The natural endorphin system will not harm anyone.
But if alcohol is used consistently it stops this natural process,
being replaced by the synthetic means of alcohol, addiction occurs,
and can only be fired by alcohol.
But if one can stop long enough with help this natural process will return.
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another spot
Sorry, Jerry. I reckon I read your posts too quickly.
I’ve been deeply involved in reviewing twi teaching in this area for the past several weeks. Most of it doesn’t hold up to my satisfaction. I haven’t made up my mind what I think about it in general yet.
Re chapter and verse: twi was so rabid about that yet accepted (we) so much without it (where I’ve found most things that I believe to be in error). Other things out of context. The only way for me to wade through it is to ask myself what does it say? What doesn’t it say? Is this Scriptural, or something vp made up? I’m sure there will come a time when I won’t be as insistent about it, but it won’t be until after I’m done with this process. I took a 7 yr. break from it which is why I’m just now finishing up. I will say it is a heck of a lot easier with more time and space between me and twi than it was back when we were working on pfal!!!
In any case, thanks for clarifying. Carry on, lol.
Deb
P. S. I’m sorry about your brother.
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Danny
A S
Glad you brought up context.
Seems it was so easy for twi to miss that part.
Really like missing the whole book.
I read in another tread You might be in a cult--
When you spend more time looking at the 4 crosses
than looking at the one in the middle.
So it seems with this subject.
So much miss understood,
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another spot
That’s pretty deep, Danny. I’ve read the point about concentrating on the four on each side before (yes I thought it true and profound), but just the way you worded it really hit my heart in a much more profound way. I think it was couching it in terms of context. Insightful. Thank you so much!!
Also: Sunesis: Awesome posts!! I enjoyed them very much.
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irisheyes
Sun:
Don't remember saying it was unfair. I totally agree with you. Thanks for your input.
Very interesting.
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irisheyes
AS: I'm glad you like to think! And you do such a good job at it, too. I thoroughly enjoyed your response and agree with it. I never did buy the alcholism, depression, cancer, etc. explanation as devil spirits. Perhaps you were around after I was? I've been done with TWI for some 20 years. I can't even imagine opening up a PFAL book or syllabus or anything. I hardly care except for the fact that I was so duped for so long as so many others. I don't know if you went back and read the beginning of this discussion, but I am trying to write a book on death from a biblical perspective. Mainly, my soapbox is that God gets blamed for so many things that aren't necessarily His "fault." Does my search include stuff I learned so long ago? Yes, as someone recently said on another thread, something about throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I don't think much of anything is either all good or all bad. Same with TWI. Of course, the material I might believe to be correct from there may have belonged to someone who never even saw a green card, huh? Anyway, maybe now we both know each other a little better.
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irisheyes
J: Thanks for the above. Especially liked your comments about protection. Also, that the scripture takes both sides of some very important issues. That is how I feel about death and that I what I am trying to figure out.
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Sunesis
Irisheyes, the "unfair" wasn't about you. I know you didn't say that. Its a generic thing many people say about God, how "unfair" he is.
You know, how dare he give people a heads up of what's coming, they don't like it, so its, unfair. How can God do something like that? How can he "torture" people (if they read the Word, they'd know he doesn't torture - in fact, he's not even there - its a place where he is not), etc. I was using it in a generic sense, something that is very commonly said.
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irisheyes
CMan: Thanks and hats off to ya. You made it make sense.
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Patrick and Sarah
Hey Sunisis:
"1. He gave us freedom of will, with the ability to choose. 2. He does not kill that eternal soul every man has."
I like your two premises and that you are looking at this from a theological perspective instead of a just a strict Biblical interpretation perspective.
One thing that we never chose was whether to come into this world or not. There are some groups that believe that we did choose, as eternal souls, to come to earth and have a human experience, live and learn and grow. This is a reincarnation view. I don't like that one much.
Your point number two I feel lacks though. There is no place that God is not. We can not spend eternity "apart from God" We can not spend eternity "banished" from the creator. God is everywhere present and wherever we go from here............there God is.
That being said, there could well be, and I believe there is, room for growth in the next realm. After this experience there will be more with the same good creator.
What does believing this type of theology do for us in the here and now? Jesus brought heaven from "there" to "here" as He walked the earth. We too can bring heaven from a future place of maybes, to a present place of walking now in the goodness of heaven, with no fear of what the future holds, knowing that it is in the hands of a intelligent and loving creator. We bring heaven here and now by seeing the unseen, and through our beliefs in the spiritual, and as we live this spiritual reality, then the "fruit of the Spirit" grows in our lives.
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Sunesis
Hello Patrick and Sarah. How are you?
I too used to be a Universalist, like you. I finally had to discard it after I read what the Bible and Christ say about "hell" - I hate that word. But, if I was going to be honest, I finally had to discard universalism.
For my point no. 2, see Eccl. 3:11.
So, what does my point of view, that there is a heaven and hell, do for people now?
Well, if one believes in a "hell" - where the Bible says its located, what Christ says about it, what the Bible says about it, then, hopefully, a person will make a decision now, in this life for or against Christ. It cannot be put off.
If you believe in Universalism, why, you don't need to make a decision. Why worry, if all will be pardoned in the next?
What universalism fails to take into account, is that: to enter God's coming kingdom, you must be a new CREATION. You must be sinless. You must be Holy.
Only Christ can clothe us with the righteousness and holiness needed to enter into His Kingdom - and that, only if we will it - desire Him and this Life He promised.
A universalist believes that somehow later, they will spend some time in Hell, then be released and enter God's Kingdom.
Not true. Those where God is not are not "new creations." They are still "unregenerate." They do not have a "new nature."
Even after being chained in Hell for 1,000 years during the new millenium to come, Satan, let out, still did not change his stripes. He again foments rebellion - that is his nature. That is mankind's fallen nature - rebellion. Only Christ can change it and make us a new creation with a new nature.
Look at it this way: God cannot abide sin and unholiness in his presence.
If I had a neighbor who robbed, cheated, stole, murdered, why would I let him into my house?
Why would God let corruption into the holy of holies, heaven?
He will not.
There is nothing unjust about it.
Nothing is going to change their nature.
Its nice for people to think that God will, against their own wills, that he will change them some day - but that is not what the Word says.
In the Universalist way, no one ever has to make a decision, since - hey, it will work out in the future. Thus, why even worry about God, his message, his Christ now in this life? No need to.
I consider it an "apostate" Christianity.
This is man's day, I sometimes think we think, how dare God judge? We forget, and as I Peter says, there are scoffers thinking nothing's ever going to change. Things will continue just as they are.
Lately I've been reading up on Apostasy - fascinating. Also, when changing my mind I looked up "hell", pit, abyss, etc. There's lots in there - much more than I ever realized. Hmm... I wonder why we were never taught this stuff.
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irisheyes
Patrick, Sara and Sun:
Interesting conversation. Think about John 3:16: ....that whosever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." It only stands to reason, therefore, that some will perish, which appears to be the opposite of everlasting life (to me anyway). Just thought about that yesterday. What exactly does perish mean? And, you cannot just erase believes. This verse says everlasting life is conditional. If with our free will we decide not to believe, then our will will be done. (As someone, was it you Sunny?, already pointed out.) I must say I think Sunny has my vote on this. God's got a pretty good vocabulary. I would think He could've worded it differently if it was so. It says somewhere in Romans (I think) that nature alone should bring us to believe and that therefore some are without excuse in not believing. And, Patrick and/or Sara: there is also the idea that there will be some in heaven and some on earth when all is said and done. Obviously, there will be different ways to judge different people.
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Patrick and Sarah
Very nice.
Hi sunesis. I am well, think you.
Hi irisheyes.
It is interesting that sunesis pegged be as a univirsalist. I did cruse through universalism for a time in my Bible bound Christian walk. There are three strong theologies within Christainity for where the individual will spend eternity. Heaven and hell..........Heaven and annihilation.....wich is what VPW taught.......and universalism.
I believed in annihilation for many years.
I believed in universalism for about 5 years.
A belief is a powerful thing. A belief has a great effect on how we live our lives in the here and now. Universalism helps the Christian believer to not worry about a future heaven or hell, so they can concentrate on the present life in the heavens with Christ, here and now.
There is a whole sect of Christianity that teaches Biblical Universlism and they handle the tough verses that you refer to. A google search or "Christian Universalism" will give you a lot of food for thought. I'm not talking about "Uitarian Universalism" wich is not really a Bible based universalism.
A word study of "perish" might show some interesting results.
Like I said though, a belief is a powerful thing. Perishing can mean many things. The interpretation has a great deal to do with the theology you hold.
Volition allows us to beleive whatever we want, and through trial and error, we have chosen what to believe. My interpretation of John 3:16 is that we "shall not be perishing" a present reality just as "eternal life" is a present reality.
I've found that we can make the Bible say whatever the hell we want it to say depending on our theological stance and beliefs. TWI was the best at this that I had ever seen.
I'm not living this life as though the rewards come in the future. The rewards are now for "living in Christ", and the future will take care of itself. If we live spiritual now, and reap the fruit of spiritual living in the present, then there is no fear of what will come in the future. None of us know for sure what the future heaven and hell will be. Some of us stick to our Biblical interpretations and this has a result on our lives in the present.
Really the present is what matters. Life is what matters. Life in the now. Death will come to us all. I don't look at it as a friend or an enemy. It is a fact of life. I choose to believe that Life overcomes death just as Christ overcame death. Life trumps, and this belief has great effect on how I will address death when it comes my way.
BTW I am no longer a Christian universalist. Christian Universalism is Biblical teaching. I feel that we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say. I only use the Bible when it lines up with what I am experiencing in the present moment. I spiritualize the bookand enjoy my private interpretations, For "God is working in me, both to will, and to do, of His good pleasure".
Aint it gand?
Patrick
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Sunesis
What I think is so cool, is that as we love God, He continues to teach us and we can look back, see what we believed, and then how the Holy Spirit gently guides us into a more perfect truth, or whole truth. The progression of learning over time is very interesting to look back on.
It is a gentle journey where we looked at something, believed it then, but as we are willing to learn, He gently shows us why something is not right and where to look next.
We are all on our own journey. It will be interesting to see what we have learned about things a few years from now.
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cman
If one knows nothing about hell, then why be afraid?
God is in hell also.
There isn't anyone who will not experience it, imo.
Or God is a respecter of persons.
If you ever get to the place that you will seriously look into these things.
And do what it takes to find out, then you will get some answers.
There are so many answers that they just keep coming. Fast and slow at times.
Just get out of the way, and stop fighting everything.
You have the sense to see the truth if you let go of what you have already decided.
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