I tend to agree with your statement. We don't really know and going further, I can't quite see how we ever will. Sadly, there seems to be lots of things God wants to keep quiet about, which I think is a fundamentally unfather-like thing to do, but that's another discussion. As for the devil, unleashing an invisible being with the power to kill on a basically unsuspecting populace strikes me as a bit sadistic.
So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible.
Without the ability to at least consider and even respond, we commit ourselves to accepting what is handed to us.
That's not always in our best interests, as we have seen from observing the very real outcome of the concepts expounded by TWI.
Did you feel like me when you got out? I felt like I had a paper bag over my head for 15 some years and all of a sudden, it was gone. It took me a long while to be able to trust anything anybody else said, but I finally realized that I needed input. Like 5-Alive. I do fall back on concept/reality, however, especially dealing with the death issue. Seems people who have supposedly "come back" all see the same thing; funny, same with people who are abducted by aliens. Those aliens--they all look the same. You know what I mean? "Uh, I saw a bright light and started to go towards it, but couldn't get there, someone was calling me back...." How come they don't make it all the way and then turn around? I just can't buy the bright light concept as reality. Some people might wish I'd try it out for myself, huh?
Did you feel like me when you got out? I felt like I had a paper bag over my head for 15 some years and all of a sudden, it was gone. It took me a long while to be able to trust anything anybody else said, but I finally realized that I needed input. Like 5-Alive. I do fall back on concept/reality, however, especially dealing with the death issue. Seems people who have supposedly "come back" all see the same thing; funny, same with people who are abducted by aliens. Those aliens--they all look the same. You know what I mean? "Uh, I saw a bright light and started to go towards it, but couldn't get there, someone was calling me back...." How come they don't make it all the way and then turn around? I just can't buy the bright light concept as reality. Some people might wish I'd try it out for myself, huh?
Good questions Irish. Actually, I've done a lot of reading on this subject (about six books so far) and the idea that everyone who has a near death experience sees the same thing (the tunnel of light) is misgiven. Actually only a small percentage (about 1/5 if I remember correctly) of those who have an NDE experience the tunnel effect or see a bright light. More common is the out of body experience where a person is aware of leaving his or her body (this happened to my brother during one of his seizures early in his illness). Some leave their body for just a moment and some leave for what seems like an extended period of time and travel around the area. Actually there isn't a single common experience that people can point to as being universal.
And some people have very negative NDE's. Some have claimed to go down to hell and have seen Lucifer, (documented in Raymond Moody's famous book Life after Life) some have seen crowds of dead, naked people looking like prisoners in a Nazi death camp, some have felt themselves being pulled downward as if by invisible claws pulling the soul from the body.
Most are positive, but one fascinating book I read took the position that those who have a negative NDE are discouraged from talking about it, so their numbers are underrepresented. That book has a lot of fascinating insights. It was written by a woman named P.M.H. Atwater. It's called Beyond the Light. What isn't being said about the Near Death Experience. It's out of print, but can be purchased at http://www.alibris.com If you don't read any other book about Life after death, you should read this one.
Here's a synopsis of the book from Barnes & Noble.com
P. M. H. Atwater is unique in this world. As both a near-death survivor and a near-death researcher, she brings a remarkable perspective to her work. Her first book, Coming Back to Life caused a major controversy in the field of near-death studies, and Beyond the Light promises to do the same. It presents the most in-depth and comprehensive look at the near-death phenomenon, its after-effects and implications. She challenges the stereotype of the "amazing grace" near-death experience of a tunnel of light accompanied by a feeling of well-being. Atwater has provocative evidence of many different types of experiences, including those that are hell-like as well as transcendent. She also discusses and contrasts the experiences of those people who were dead for several days and then revived, those who attempted suicide, and the similarities and differences between near-death experiences and hallucinations. Atwater was the first near-death researcher to find that the experience changed the brain's physiology, actually altering its structure. While she was criticized for this bold assertion, subsequent findings have proved her correct. Beyond the Light provocatively probes the "electrical sensitivity" that follows near-death episodes as well as the now-acknowledged "brain-shifts," and considers how these findings might change our very notion of mortality. Atwater has interviewed hundreds who have experienced near-death and their loved-ones and friends. Her conclusions and observations will challenge our assumptions about what we consider life, death, and the existence and evolution of the individual soul. Like almost everyone who has experienced near-death, Atwater has come away spiritually charged with a mission to share her perceptions and sensations. Beyond the Light is about nightmares as well as miracles, joy as well as deep despair. Atwater makes a compelling case that near-death provides us with a fascinating window on one of life's greatest unknowns and sets th...
Interesting posts. I’ve always been intrigued with this incident:
Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing [him] said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life (psuche) is in him.
It implies Paul was able to raise him from the dead because his soul was still within. It is a contradiction to twi’s “soul sleep” I should think. Evidently the soul does leave the body.
My sister is a nurse. It is not uncommon for a person to be declared dead at the hospital, sent to the morgue, and then revive spontaneously several days later. I’m planning to state clearly in my will I am not to be messed with for four days after I’m dead. Just to be sure. Ha!
Another weird thing: Patients who have lost part or all of limbs can still feel them. There is still an energy force there. It is a scientific fact.
I have to go investigate a strangely bright light and whirring noise coming from my linen closet.
WS: Sorry about feeling tripped out. How awful that must have been. But, I must admit I LOL about your linen closet. We painted our bedroom a bright easter egg green once and it glowed from down the hall. Hideous!!!
Here's a synopsis of the book from Barnes & Noble.com
JJ: Guess I couldn't get the whole quote repeated. Anyway, all I had ever heard about was the tunnel and the light. I remembered about leaving the body after I read it from you. However, how do we know this stuff is for real and not just dreams? Part of the quote from B&N said there was evidence? Definition? I understand what you said about differences in the brain, etc. and that is really cool. I have never heard of someone coming back after being dead for a few days. That freaks me out. I was always afraid of being buried alive when I was a kid. Glad there's embalming now. Actually, I've told them to make me fish food.
But, seriously, does it make you a believer in going right to heaven (or hell)?
It implies Paul was able to raise him from the dead because his soul was still within. It is a contradiction to twi’s “soul sleep” I should think. Evidently the soul does leave the body.
AS: I never got that impression. Interesting take on it. I certainly still believe(d) that the soul is breath life and the spirit returns to God. It just makes so much sense, especially when it comes to unbelievers in the O.T. Anyway, Paul may have been able to deal with miracles that early on, but later on he couldn't. He had a thorn in the flesh, he had a sick messenger and he told Timothy to drink on for his stomach problems. Not to mention the fact that 11 of the 12 died martyrs.
Here's kind of a goofy thought that crossed my mind.
So I guess my question is: are we talking about the act of dying or the state of death?
WS: I think we're talking about a little of everything. Personally, I don't give it much thought anymore. I had a fear of death a few years ago, but I reminded myself that I have eternal life and holy spirit and that, if I go early, God will take good care of my wife and kids. So now I really dont' care. I really don't want to edure a long, debilitating illness and definitely don't want to suffer alzheirmer's. That's hell on earth imo. I intend to make a living will that states that if I ever start losing my faculties, I am to be euthanized in four weeks or less (Let the minutes reflect...) When the mind goes, what's the friggin point?
But I digress. I would like for my life to accomplish something, but I don't fear dying or death itself. If I had to go before I felt like I had accomplished what I'm here for, I'd be overwhelmed with sadness too. If I can get to the point where I feel like my work is done, I'll go quietly, with at least a little curiosity about what comes next.
Irish: The book is the most comprehensive, and most objective presentation of the NDE experience out there. Most authors who have a near death experience become evangelists for the idea that death is not an enemy and they attach themselves to the New Age community. Atwater was raised by a police detective who trained her as a child to be keenly observant and inquisititve. She takes the same mindset regarding the near death experience and considers every plausible explanation (except possibly demonic deception; can't remember if she tackles that one). She postulated that some of what people experience, specifically the golden colors commonly reported) are the result of chemical changes in the brain caused by lack of oxygen or physical trauma. There is a part of the brain called (if I remember correctly) the Sylvan Fissure that is known to produce similar colors when damaged. Her theory is that perhaps trauma to the Sylvan Fissure causes people to see heavenly golden hues and some of the light shows reported. That may be the changed in brain structure the synopsis referred to.
Speaking of evidence....one of the things I found fascinating is the fact that there was a nursing home in which several people had near death experiences. Not only were all of them negative and frightening, they were all the same. If these experiences were actually a trip the the next life, why would a bunch of people with nothing more in common than their age and current residence have identical experiences in the afterlife?
She also investigated and reported on an incident in which two young people suffered a whitewater rafting accident in which both nearly drowned. They were not married, not related, and had very little in common. They both had NDE's and they were identical. Again, people from disparate backgrounds had identical near death experiences.
Now what would cause that?
I can think of one explanation that all of us would find familiar, but some would reject.
So I guess my question is: are we talking about the act of dying or the state of death?
I don't know about everybody else, but I'm talking about the state of death, not the act of dying.
I believe there are probably numerous times that we have been saved from untimely death without our knowing it. I know exactly what you mean as the same thing has happened to me a few times. It made me wonder about the times I may have left the house late because the phone rang or my car didn't start, etc. We are fragile but strong beings, you know. I don't think, however, depression was my reaction. Surprise, maybe. Joy to be alive anyway. Can't say though I've never wished I wasn't. Some days life is a struggle.
But I digress. I would like for my life to accomplish something, but I don't fear dying or death itself. If I had to go before I felt like I had accomplished what I'm here for, I'd be overwhelmed with sadness too. If I can get to the point where I feel like my work is done, I'll go quietly, with at least a little curiosity about what comes next.
Now what would cause that?
I can think of one explanation that all of us would find familiar, but some would reject.
any guesses?
JJ: Do you think you are here for a spiritual reason? Someone said to me yesterday that she believed we all had spiritual lessons to learn and maybe kids even learned what they had to in utero and that explains infant deaths. Problem with that is it doesn't explain suffering. Babies who get awful diseases...you know what I mean. Or people who die horrible deaths. We can certainly learn a lesson without it hurting, don't ya think? What you said about God taking good care of your family was very touching. I think men and women have a very different mind set when it comes to romance, responsibilities, etc. But, that's just me. Anyway, isn't it something that we don't want to die, for the most part. People want to live. I think that's why death is the enemy. We have a great ability to enjoy ourselves. But once the mind goes, we might as well be dead.
I would imagine your "explanation" would be devil spirits, right? Well, someone is right and someone is wrong. Either we go to heaven immediately upon death, or we go when the Lord returns. Can the devil put thoughts in our minds? Well, you ever watch that character John somebody who talks to the dead? He gets some of the stuff right, but not all of it. Apparently, though, he gets enough to get people to pay for him to be on their show and buy his books. Anyway, my gut says we don't have enough information. My guess is we're dead til the lord comes back for us. Have you ever seen a ghost? An alien? A devil spirit?
Valid questions. Reasonable answers would be great. Any kind of answer might help us figure it all out.
Sorry, I don't have any guesses to offer regarding the similarities in experiences.
Do you have to be conscious to have an NDE?
Maybe that seems like I'm jesting but I'm really not.
I came very, very near to death in the operating room once.
(That at least accounts for the ND part of NDE.)
I have absolutely no memory of it.
I wouldn't even have known if a family member hadn't "let he cat out of the bag".
Another time( one of several, actually) I had a construction accident that was extremely close.
I was 4 stories up, all alone, in an unfinished structure when the accident occurred.
There were no stairs so I had to climb down a series of ladders to reach the ground, all the while holding my head to try to control the bleeding. The flush of emotion happened at the very moment the accident took place, not during my descent.
At the hospital, I discovered that I came within 1 or 2 millimeters of having my carotid artery severed.
It was surreal to think about, but still, this was after that moment of extreme and acute emotion had passed.
I think at that moment, my mind saw dying as a foregone conclusion and was struggling to comprehend the state of death it anticipated.
No bright lights or anything like that, just an overwhelming sense of sadness.
JJ: Do you think you are here for a spiritual reason? Someone said to me yesterday that she believed we all had spiritual lessons to learn and maybe kids even learned what they had to in utero and that explains infant deaths. Problem with that is it doesn't explain suffering. Babies who get awful diseases...you know what I mean. Or people who die horrible deaths. We can certainly learn a lesson without it hurting, don't ya think? What you said about God taking good care of your family was very touching. I think men and women have a very different mind set when it comes to romance, responsibilities, etc. But, that's just me. Anyway, isn't it something that we don't want to die, for the most part. People want to live. I think that's why death is the enemy. We have a great ability to enjoy ourselves. But once the mind goes, we might as well be dead.
I don't know about the babies accomplishing its life's work in utero. I thnk that's quite a stretch. But I do believe that people have a purpose to achieve. Then again, the Bible speaks of "the elect" who are called according to God's purpose. So perhaps only the elect have a purpose and the rest don't. That would explain why some people die young or in childhood and some are miraculously spared. Of course, not all of us accomplish our God given purpose. We can get off track by disobience, as Israel did in Canaan. But again, I digress.
I would imagine your "explanation" would be devil spirits, right?
Righto. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Spirits are said to inhabit certain places (like a haunted house). It seems logical to me that if NDE's are caused by spirits being able to manipulate injured brains during physical trauma, that would explain why people who have NDE's in a certain locale would have the same one. They are all in the same theatre, so they get to see the same act, so to speak. This would also explain why the vast majority of NDE's do not support the idea that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, THE way, the truth, etc. Most people who have vivid or prolonged NDE's come away with a sense that we are all destined for heaven. I'm not saying that's untrue. Maybe the Universalists are correct and Jesus has already redeemed everyone. But most of the Scripture doesn't seem to support that idea.
And Atwater's findings about the effects of injuring or stimulating the Sylvan Fissure would explain how spirits are able to create these illusions. They know the wiring and what switches to throw.
I'm not saying that's what I believe, but I tend to lean in that direction.
Well, someone is right and someone is wrong. Either we go to heaven immediately upon death, or we go when the Lord returns. Can the devil put thoughts in our minds? Well, you ever watch that character John somebody who talks to the dead? He gets some of the stuff right, but not all of it. Apparently, though, he gets enough to get people to pay for him to be on their show and buy his books. Anyway, my gut says we don't have enough information. My guess is we're dead til the lord comes back for us. Have you ever seen a ghost? An alien? A devil spirit?
Valid questions. Reasonable answers would be great. Any kind of answer might help us figure it all out.
I've never seen a ghost or an alien. I have had experiences that I attribute to devil spirits, but haven't seen an apparition of any kind.
Sorry, I don't have any guesses to offer regarding the similarities in experiences.
Do you have to be conscious to have an NDE?
Sorry to hear about your injury, but I'm glad you made it through. :-)
There are examples of people having out of body experiences without being unconscious. That's a fairly common experience. more common that is, than the whole tunnel of light phenomenon. And that's one of the most challenging areas (the out of body experience that is) Some people have them and travel to other rooms and see people they've never met. When they return to their bodies, they are able to identify those people by name, heving never met them.
This happened to my brother during his seizure. He floated up into a corner of the room near the ceiling and saw the paramedics working on him. He knew them all although he hadn't been introduced to them. When the seizure ended, he "came to" and thanked them all by name. He said they were a little freaked out by it.
That type of experience is, imho, the most resistant to refutation. I don't see how a devil spirit could fake that and there are many examples like that involving extrasensory perception while the "soul" is displaced.
I'm not sure what to make of it, but it seems that in these extreme situations of danger or injury (most commonly injury) the soul and body connection gets temporarily disrupted and the soul is able to perceive things the body cannot.
Guess I'm either accident prone or willing to take too many chances to put food on the table.
Same thing every time, extreme instant sadness.
Personally, what i think happens is that the body is confused by the abruptness of the trauma and starts sending out chemicals without examining the RX very closely. Thus too much of this, too little of that and so on.
The thing I always laugh about when I watch those shows is this: Why would Aunt Minnie's spirit want to hide in my linen closet? I mean, it's a spirit, ya know? If I had freedom to go where ever I choose, I think I'd pick someplace other than a linen closet. Like someplace where I didn't have to look at white sheets all day.
is it because it's thought that nothing changes in death, even afterwards?
and why can these things not be seen by people
i think some have
well documented in the scriptures
the mount of transfiguration is one i think of
as well as the book of revelations
and what is breath life?
there is the breath of life i know of....
the last breath in this body exhales, always
that can be documented by finding those that have seen it
also in 'breath work' which can be googled
one can see a connection with the 'in the air'
meditation, yoga and the like all deal with this reality
i mean isn't air real? does it die?
CM: As WS said, the terminology is just to make it easier for us to differentiate what we're talking about. Breath life is being used by all of us the same way, I would say. I don't know where your last question comes from? Of course air is real. Has anyone said it isn't? It's difference relating to breath life would be it's not human, imho. And, of course, biblically it is so closely linked with spirit. I'm not sure if you are refutting stuff or adding stuff. Sorry.
Then again, the Bible speaks of "the elect" who are called according to God's purpose. So perhaps only the elect have a purpose and the rest don't. That would explain why some people die young or in childhood and some are miraculously spared.
What a great point, JB! Of course, TWI taught that if you didn't believe and weren't going to believe, it was par for the course for you to die, you were no better than an animal. That never really helped me feel good about friends I had lost one way or the other, even if they wouldn't be or weren't "saved."
Righto. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Spirits are said to inhabit certain places (like a haunted house). It seems logical to me that if NDE's are caused by spirits being able to manipulate injured brains during physical trauma, that would explain why people who have NDE's in a certain locale would have the same one. They are all in the same theatre, so they get to see the same act, so to speak. This would also explain why the vast majority of NDE's do not support the idea that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, THE way, the truth, etc. Most people who have vivid or prolonged NDE's come away with a sense that we are all destined for heaven. I'm not saying that's untrue. Maybe the Universalists are correct and Jesus has already redeemed everyone. But most of the Scripture doesn't seem to support that idea.
And Atwater's findings about the effects of injuring or stimulating the Sylvan Fissure would explain how spirits are able to create these illusions. They know the wiring and what switches to throw.
I'm not saying that's what I believe, but I tend to lean in that direction.
I've never seen a ghost or an alien. I have had experience don'ts that I attribute to devil spirits, but haven't seen an apparition of any kind.
First, why call it NDE and not DE? Doesn't the fact the NEAR is part of the equation kind of refute that they were really dead? And isn't that the whole point of what they are saying; that they were dead and this is what happened and then they came back to tell us about it? So why the NEAR? Any clue to that? Kind of an oxymoron almost.
And, as far as the devil spirit stuff, I would say it's a plausible explanation. Lots of people dispute their existence. Once you read the gospels, however, don't you wonder where they all went? I mean what do people think? They just disappeared? Maybe they just changed clothes....
Sorry to hear about your injury, but I'm glad you made it through. :-) Me too!
And that's one of the most challenging areas (the out of body experience that is) Some people have them and travel to other rooms and see people they've never met. When they return to their bodies, they are able to identify those people by name, heving never met them.
This happened to my brother during his seizure. He floated up into a corner of the room near the ceiling and saw the paramedics working on him. He knew them all although he hadn't been introduced to them. When the seizure ended, he "came to" and thanked them all by name. He said they were a little freaked out by it.
That type of experience is, imho, the most resistant to refutation. I don't see how a devil spirit could fake that and there are many examples like that involving extrasensory perception while the "soul" is displaced.
I'm not sure what to make of it, but it seems that in these extreme situations of danger or injury (most commonly injury) the soul and body connection gets temporarily disrupted and the soul is able to perceive things the body cannot.
Okay, try this on for size, JB:
Is there a difference between what you are explaining happened to your brother and say a "fortune teller" or a "hypnotist"? I went to a fortune teller right before I took PFAL and she knew stuff about me, my dad, etc. So, the spirits told her, right?
Well, what about hypnotism?
Like getting hypnotized to quit smoking or to act like a quacking duck or something? Isn't it just mind control? Couldn't a spirit tell your mind someone's name? Especially while experiencing something like a seizure. You aren't exactly in control. How do you tell reality from un? It just doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me, unless you are referring to being out of your body? I have an aunt who does it all the time. Awake. At least she says she does. What a freak!
I read a couple of books on NDE's awhile ago. One that stands out in my mind the most is: Unknown Land, Hell's Dominion, available on Amazon.
I think, if we are in the "last days," God, not wanting to lose anyone is giving people visions, so to speak, of literally what is ahead for those who choose not to spend eternity with him.
Hell is not a land of God torturing people (we can thank Dante and medieval writers for those gruesome scenes), but more of, a place where God is not. Anyway, it was an incredible book. There's another one, I'll see what it is at home tonight.
Also, I found a website, which I'll link tonight, its on my home computer, which is a compilation of "death bed" stories that a preacher in the late 1890s kept. He was curious if there was a difference in "believer's" deaths and unbelievers. There are about 200 accounts people wrote and sent him. It is truly fascinating. I must believe that there really is something, or truth, to the idea of a coming heaven and hell as laid out in the Bible. I think you guys would enjoy this read.
I also, when my father was dying this fall, was talking to the Hospice "faith" counselor. I asked her, do you, or have you seen a difference in people who are "believers" and are dying, and those who aren't. She gave me an emphatic yes, there is a definite difference. It was an interesting conversation after that. She emphasized that her function is not to "convert" anyone, but to help people become at peace with their coming death, no matter what they believe. But, still, it was a fascinating conversation.
When I seriously read about Christ in the Gospels - and his words. It becomes obvious that He has one main theme - and its a huge one.
His theme was: The Kingdom of God is coming.
This Kingdom is not of this earth.
All are welcome to enter.
He is the door. Believe he is sent from God, he will joyfully give you entrance.
If you reject him, you will get your wish - to be without God.
He then gives many illustrations of the coming Kingdom of God.
His whole message is about the coming Kingdom and come, enter.
I take him seriously.
I believe today, God is ramping up the visions of what is to come for all of us after we die in an effort to get mankind to choose "life."
God has set eternity in every man's heart (Eccl. 3:11). I believe we are on earth to make a choice of who we want to spend eternity with, now and in the future. Everything else is great and wonderful, but we have a serious choice to make.
Death - I believe our soul will spend eternity in the presence of God, holy and as Christ is with our new spiritual bodies, or - not in His presence - still aware, with bodies prepared for eternity in their plane of existence, but not in His presence. Either way, our will, will be done.
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Jbarrax
Thanks JJ.
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irisheyes
Did you feel like me when you got out? I felt like I had a paper bag over my head for 15 some years and all of a sudden, it was gone. It took me a long while to be able to trust anything anybody else said, but I finally realized that I needed input. Like 5-Alive. I do fall back on concept/reality, however, especially dealing with the death issue. Seems people who have supposedly "come back" all see the same thing; funny, same with people who are abducted by aliens. Those aliens--they all look the same. You know what I mean? "Uh, I saw a bright light and started to go towards it, but couldn't get there, someone was calling me back...." How come they don't make it all the way and then turn around? I just can't buy the bright light concept as reality. Some people might wish I'd try it out for myself, huh?
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waysider
Oh, my gosh!!!
You don't really feel that way, do you?
We're having waaaaaay too much fun to think that way!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did I feel like the veil had been lifted when I left?
No. Not at all.
I didn't know about what had happened so I spent a long time feeling like I had "tripped out".
I didn't realize that all I had really done was to break free from a cult.
---------------------------------------------------------------
That's all for now.
I have to go investigate a strangely bright light and whirring noise coming from my linen closet.
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Jbarrax
Good questions Irish. Actually, I've done a lot of reading on this subject (about six books so far) and the idea that everyone who has a near death experience sees the same thing (the tunnel of light) is misgiven. Actually only a small percentage (about 1/5 if I remember correctly) of those who have an NDE experience the tunnel effect or see a bright light. More common is the out of body experience where a person is aware of leaving his or her body (this happened to my brother during one of his seizures early in his illness). Some leave their body for just a moment and some leave for what seems like an extended period of time and travel around the area. Actually there isn't a single common experience that people can point to as being universal.
And some people have very negative NDE's. Some have claimed to go down to hell and have seen Lucifer, (documented in Raymond Moody's famous book Life after Life) some have seen crowds of dead, naked people looking like prisoners in a Nazi death camp, some have felt themselves being pulled downward as if by invisible claws pulling the soul from the body.
Most are positive, but one fascinating book I read took the position that those who have a negative NDE are discouraged from talking about it, so their numbers are underrepresented. That book has a lot of fascinating insights. It was written by a woman named P.M.H. Atwater. It's called Beyond the Light. What isn't being said about the Near Death Experience. It's out of print, but can be purchased at http://www.alibris.com If you don't read any other book about Life after death, you should read this one.
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Jbarrax
Here's a synopsis of the book from Barnes & Noble.com
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another spot
Interesting posts. I’ve always been intrigued with this incident:
Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing [him] said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life (psuche) is in him.
It implies Paul was able to raise him from the dead because his soul was still within. It is a contradiction to twi’s “soul sleep” I should think. Evidently the soul does leave the body.
My sister is a nurse. It is not uncommon for a person to be declared dead at the hospital, sent to the morgue, and then revive spontaneously several days later. I’m planning to state clearly in my will I am not to be messed with for four days after I’m dead. Just to be sure. Ha!
Another weird thing: Patients who have lost part or all of limbs can still feel them. There is still an energy force there. It is a scientific fact.
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irisheyes
WS: Sorry about feeling tripped out. How awful that must have been. But, I must admit I LOL about your linen closet. We painted our bedroom a bright easter egg green once and it glowed from down the hall. Hideous!!!
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irisheyes
JJ: Guess I couldn't get the whole quote repeated. Anyway, all I had ever heard about was the tunnel and the light. I remembered about leaving the body after I read it from you. However, how do we know this stuff is for real and not just dreams? Part of the quote from B&N said there was evidence? Definition? I understand what you said about differences in the brain, etc. and that is really cool. I have never heard of someone coming back after being dead for a few days. That freaks me out. I was always afraid of being buried alive when I was a kid. Glad there's embalming now. Actually, I've told them to make me fish food.
But, seriously, does it make you a believer in going right to heaven (or hell)?
AS: I never got that impression. Interesting take on it. I certainly still believe(d) that the soul is breath life and the spirit returns to God. It just makes so much sense, especially when it comes to unbelievers in the O.T. Anyway, Paul may have been able to deal with miracles that early on, but later on he couldn't. He had a thorn in the flesh, he had a sick messenger and he told Timothy to drink on for his stomach problems. Not to mention the fact that 11 of the 12 died martyrs.
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waysider
Here's kind of a goofy thought that crossed my mind.
I talked to someone recently who has had several people close to them die in the past few years.
The person told me they are not afraid of dying and that if it happened today, they are ready.
(No, I don't think this had any suicide connotations.)
I didn't really think to ask this at the time, but now the question crosses my mind.
When most people ponder this subject, do they ponder the STATE of death or the actual ACT of dying?
Of course, there's no way to look at that statistically but it piques my interest.
Personally, I'm not afraid of being dead, but I'm REALLY not keen on the actual dying part.
I know that's probably weird but it seemed related to the subject.
On a side note:
I have had some experiences in my life that appeared to be events where, momentarily, you think to yourself, "This is it, it's over."
Events that happened accidentally and quickly.
Looking back on them, all I can remember, on an emotional level, was having an incredible swell of sadness overtake me.
In a moments time I went from being "just fine" to being more depressed than I had ever been in my life.
It wasn't a thought process, really, more of a flood of emotion.
So I guess my question is: are we talking about the act of dying or the state of death?
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Jbarrax
WS: I think we're talking about a little of everything. Personally, I don't give it much thought anymore. I had a fear of death a few years ago, but I reminded myself that I have eternal life and holy spirit and that, if I go early, God will take good care of my wife and kids. So now I really dont' care. I really don't want to edure a long, debilitating illness and definitely don't want to suffer alzheirmer's. That's hell on earth imo. I intend to make a living will that states that if I ever start losing my faculties, I am to be euthanized in four weeks or less (Let the minutes reflect...) When the mind goes, what's the friggin point?
But I digress. I would like for my life to accomplish something, but I don't fear dying or death itself. If I had to go before I felt like I had accomplished what I'm here for, I'd be overwhelmed with sadness too. If I can get to the point where I feel like my work is done, I'll go quietly, with at least a little curiosity about what comes next.
Irish: The book is the most comprehensive, and most objective presentation of the NDE experience out there. Most authors who have a near death experience become evangelists for the idea that death is not an enemy and they attach themselves to the New Age community. Atwater was raised by a police detective who trained her as a child to be keenly observant and inquisititve. She takes the same mindset regarding the near death experience and considers every plausible explanation (except possibly demonic deception; can't remember if she tackles that one). She postulated that some of what people experience, specifically the golden colors commonly reported) are the result of chemical changes in the brain caused by lack of oxygen or physical trauma. There is a part of the brain called (if I remember correctly) the Sylvan Fissure that is known to produce similar colors when damaged. Her theory is that perhaps trauma to the Sylvan Fissure causes people to see heavenly golden hues and some of the light shows reported. That may be the changed in brain structure the synopsis referred to.
Speaking of evidence....one of the things I found fascinating is the fact that there was a nursing home in which several people had near death experiences. Not only were all of them negative and frightening, they were all the same. If these experiences were actually a trip the the next life, why would a bunch of people with nothing more in common than their age and current residence have identical experiences in the afterlife?
She also investigated and reported on an incident in which two young people suffered a whitewater rafting accident in which both nearly drowned. They were not married, not related, and had very little in common. They both had NDE's and they were identical. Again, people from disparate backgrounds had identical near death experiences.
Now what would cause that?
I can think of one explanation that all of us would find familiar, but some would reject.
any guesses?
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irisheyes
I don't know about everybody else, but I'm talking about the state of death, not the act of dying.
I believe there are probably numerous times that we have been saved from untimely death without our knowing it. I know exactly what you mean as the same thing has happened to me a few times. It made me wonder about the times I may have left the house late because the phone rang or my car didn't start, etc. We are fragile but strong beings, you know. I don't think, however, depression was my reaction. Surprise, maybe. Joy to be alive anyway. Can't say though I've never wished I wasn't. Some days life is a struggle.
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irisheyes
JJ: Do you think you are here for a spiritual reason? Someone said to me yesterday that she believed we all had spiritual lessons to learn and maybe kids even learned what they had to in utero and that explains infant deaths. Problem with that is it doesn't explain suffering. Babies who get awful diseases...you know what I mean. Or people who die horrible deaths. We can certainly learn a lesson without it hurting, don't ya think? What you said about God taking good care of your family was very touching. I think men and women have a very different mind set when it comes to romance, responsibilities, etc. But, that's just me. Anyway, isn't it something that we don't want to die, for the most part. People want to live. I think that's why death is the enemy. We have a great ability to enjoy ourselves. But once the mind goes, we might as well be dead.
I would imagine your "explanation" would be devil spirits, right? Well, someone is right and someone is wrong. Either we go to heaven immediately upon death, or we go when the Lord returns. Can the devil put thoughts in our minds? Well, you ever watch that character John somebody who talks to the dead? He gets some of the stuff right, but not all of it. Apparently, though, he gets enough to get people to pay for him to be on their show and buy his books. Anyway, my gut says we don't have enough information. My guess is we're dead til the lord comes back for us. Have you ever seen a ghost? An alien? A devil spirit?
Valid questions. Reasonable answers would be great. Any kind of answer might help us figure it all out.
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waysider
Sorry, I don't have any guesses to offer regarding the similarities in experiences.
Do you have to be conscious to have an NDE?
Maybe that seems like I'm jesting but I'm really not.
I came very, very near to death in the operating room once.
(That at least accounts for the ND part of NDE.)
I have absolutely no memory of it.
I wouldn't even have known if a family member hadn't "let he cat out of the bag".
Another time( one of several, actually) I had a construction accident that was extremely close.
I was 4 stories up, all alone, in an unfinished structure when the accident occurred.
There were no stairs so I had to climb down a series of ladders to reach the ground, all the while holding my head to try to control the bleeding. The flush of emotion happened at the very moment the accident took place, not during my descent.
At the hospital, I discovered that I came within 1 or 2 millimeters of having my carotid artery severed.
It was surreal to think about, but still, this was after that moment of extreme and acute emotion had passed.
I think at that moment, my mind saw dying as a foregone conclusion and was struggling to comprehend the state of death it anticipated.
No bright lights or anything like that, just an overwhelming sense of sadness.
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cman
why is it being called 'the state of death'?
is it because it's thought that nothing changes in death, even afterwards?
and why can these things not be seen by people
i think some have
well documented in the scriptures
the mount of transfiguration is one i think of
as well as the book of revelations
and what is breath life?
there is the breath of life i know of....
the last breath in this body exhales, always
that can be documented by finding those that have seen it
also in 'breath work' which can be googled
one can see a connection with the 'in the air'
meditation, yoga and the like all deal with this reality
i mean isn't air real? does it die?
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waysider
cman
I think I see part of what you are getting at.
I call it the "state of death" in order to differentiate it from the actual "act of dying".
Maybe that terminology isn't the most descriptive.
The point is that, I was trying to show "death" and "dying" as being two different things.
Kinda like the difference between "falling into a sleep" (not the death variety) and "being asleep".(having already gone through the falling process)
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Jbarrax
I don't know about the babies accomplishing its life's work in utero. I thnk that's quite a stretch. But I do believe that people have a purpose to achieve. Then again, the Bible speaks of "the elect" who are called according to God's purpose. So perhaps only the elect have a purpose and the rest don't. That would explain why some people die young or in childhood and some are miraculously spared. Of course, not all of us accomplish our God given purpose. We can get off track by disobience, as Israel did in Canaan. But again, I digress.
Righto. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Spirits are said to inhabit certain places (like a haunted house). It seems logical to me that if NDE's are caused by spirits being able to manipulate injured brains during physical trauma, that would explain why people who have NDE's in a certain locale would have the same one. They are all in the same theatre, so they get to see the same act, so to speak. This would also explain why the vast majority of NDE's do not support the idea that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, THE way, the truth, etc. Most people who have vivid or prolonged NDE's come away with a sense that we are all destined for heaven. I'm not saying that's untrue. Maybe the Universalists are correct and Jesus has already redeemed everyone. But most of the Scripture doesn't seem to support that idea.And Atwater's findings about the effects of injuring or stimulating the Sylvan Fissure would explain how spirits are able to create these illusions. They know the wiring and what switches to throw.
I'm not saying that's what I believe, but I tend to lean in that direction.
I've never seen a ghost or an alien. I have had experiences that I attribute to devil spirits, but haven't seen an apparition of any kind.
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Jbarrax
Sorry to hear about your injury, but I'm glad you made it through. :-)
There are examples of people having out of body experiences without being unconscious. That's a fairly common experience. more common that is, than the whole tunnel of light phenomenon. And that's one of the most challenging areas (the out of body experience that is) Some people have them and travel to other rooms and see people they've never met. When they return to their bodies, they are able to identify those people by name, heving never met them.
This happened to my brother during his seizure. He floated up into a corner of the room near the ceiling and saw the paramedics working on him. He knew them all although he hadn't been introduced to them. When the seizure ended, he "came to" and thanked them all by name. He said they were a little freaked out by it.
That type of experience is, imho, the most resistant to refutation. I don't see how a devil spirit could fake that and there are many examples like that involving extrasensory perception while the "soul" is displaced.
I'm not sure what to make of it, but it seems that in these extreme situations of danger or injury (most commonly injury) the soul and body connection gets temporarily disrupted and the soul is able to perceive things the body cannot.
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waysider
Thanks, JB
That accident was 20 years ago.
I've had similar experiences before and after.
Guess I'm either accident prone or willing to take too many chances to put food on the table.
Same thing every time, extreme instant sadness.
Personally, what i think happens is that the body is confused by the abruptness of the trauma and starts sending out chemicals without examining the RX very closely. Thus too much of this, too little of that and so on.
The thing I always laugh about when I watch those shows is this: Why would Aunt Minnie's spirit want to hide in my linen closet? I mean, it's a spirit, ya know? If I had freedom to go where ever I choose, I think I'd pick someplace other than a linen closet. Like someplace where I didn't have to look at white sheets all day.
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cman
Sorry to be too technical but things have more light now then Solomon's time,
and what he wrote about the dead.
Not that that is what you were referring to, but that is what i thought of.
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irisheyes
CM: As WS said, the terminology is just to make it easier for us to differentiate what we're talking about. Breath life is being used by all of us the same way, I would say. I don't know where your last question comes from? Of course air is real. Has anyone said it isn't? It's difference relating to breath life would be it's not human, imho. And, of course, biblically it is so closely linked with spirit. I'm not sure if you are refutting stuff or adding stuff. Sorry.
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irisheyes
What a great point, JB! Of course, TWI taught that if you didn't believe and weren't going to believe, it was par for the course for you to die, you were no better than an animal. That never really helped me feel good about friends I had lost one way or the other, even if they wouldn't be or weren't "saved."
First, why call it NDE and not DE? Doesn't the fact the NEAR is part of the equation kind of refute that they were really dead? And isn't that the whole point of what they are saying; that they were dead and this is what happened and then they came back to tell us about it? So why the NEAR? Any clue to that? Kind of an oxymoron almost.
And, as far as the devil spirit stuff, I would say it's a plausible explanation. Lots of people dispute their existence. Once you read the gospels, however, don't you wonder where they all went? I mean what do people think? They just disappeared? Maybe they just changed clothes....
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irisheyes
Okay, try this on for size, JB:
Is there a difference between what you are explaining happened to your brother and say a "fortune teller" or a "hypnotist"? I went to a fortune teller right before I took PFAL and she knew stuff about me, my dad, etc. So, the spirits told her, right?
Well, what about hypnotism?
Like getting hypnotized to quit smoking or to act like a quacking duck or something? Isn't it just mind control? Couldn't a spirit tell your mind someone's name? Especially while experiencing something like a seizure. You aren't exactly in control. How do you tell reality from un? It just doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me, unless you are referring to being out of your body? I have an aunt who does it all the time. Awake. At least she says she does. What a freak!
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Sunesis
I read a couple of books on NDE's awhile ago. One that stands out in my mind the most is: Unknown Land, Hell's Dominion, available on Amazon.
I think, if we are in the "last days," God, not wanting to lose anyone is giving people visions, so to speak, of literally what is ahead for those who choose not to spend eternity with him.
Hell is not a land of God torturing people (we can thank Dante and medieval writers for those gruesome scenes), but more of, a place where God is not. Anyway, it was an incredible book. There's another one, I'll see what it is at home tonight.
Also, I found a website, which I'll link tonight, its on my home computer, which is a compilation of "death bed" stories that a preacher in the late 1890s kept. He was curious if there was a difference in "believer's" deaths and unbelievers. There are about 200 accounts people wrote and sent him. It is truly fascinating. I must believe that there really is something, or truth, to the idea of a coming heaven and hell as laid out in the Bible. I think you guys would enjoy this read.
I also, when my father was dying this fall, was talking to the Hospice "faith" counselor. I asked her, do you, or have you seen a difference in people who are "believers" and are dying, and those who aren't. She gave me an emphatic yes, there is a definite difference. It was an interesting conversation after that. She emphasized that her function is not to "convert" anyone, but to help people become at peace with their coming death, no matter what they believe. But, still, it was a fascinating conversation.
When I seriously read about Christ in the Gospels - and his words. It becomes obvious that He has one main theme - and its a huge one.
His theme was: The Kingdom of God is coming.
This Kingdom is not of this earth.
All are welcome to enter.
He is the door. Believe he is sent from God, he will joyfully give you entrance.
If you reject him, you will get your wish - to be without God.
He then gives many illustrations of the coming Kingdom of God.
His whole message is about the coming Kingdom and come, enter.
I take him seriously.
I believe today, God is ramping up the visions of what is to come for all of us after we die in an effort to get mankind to choose "life."
God has set eternity in every man's heart (Eccl. 3:11). I believe we are on earth to make a choice of who we want to spend eternity with, now and in the future. Everything else is great and wonderful, but we have a serious choice to make.
Death - I believe our soul will spend eternity in the presence of God, holy and as Christ is with our new spiritual bodies, or - not in His presence - still aware, with bodies prepared for eternity in their plane of existence, but not in His presence. Either way, our will, will be done.
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irisheyes
Thanks for the post, Sun. Very interesting-sounds books.
And I never heard it quite put that way. Our will will be done. S C A R Y.
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