Not sure though what Paul meant about dying daily. Mentally? Physically--as in we ain't gonna last forever, so we die a little bit everyday?
I'm thinking that Paul meant that the Ego self or Egatic self is put to death....the old man that did not consiously line himself up with Spirit. Old beliefs that manifest as bondage are replaced with propper thinking as we renew our mind. So we could look at the annihilation of the old, and the replacing with the new, as death to the old man. Life in the new man.......Christ.
I think we will never really know , well, until we die..................
I just rest in the fact that God has it covered, Jesus conquered death, so I will be alright! There is comfort in that. It doesn't all end here.........with a slow ride in a herse.
If our ''spirits'' go back to God..............then, we ARE with God, right away!
I came across this site a while back, and it really got me thinking.
It kinda goes along with WS thinking in this post as to what is the devil etc...
If you want to get yourself in a tizzy and your brain cells burning............check it out.
[i'm thinking that Paul meant that the Ego self or Egatic self is put to death....the old man that did not consiously line himself up with Spirit. Old beliefs that manifest as bondage are replaced with propper thinking as we renew our mind. So we could look at the annihilation of the old, and the replacing with the new, as death to the old man. Life in the new man.......Christ.
Patrick
Patrick, I think that makes sense. I should have looked up the context, but I didn't. Thanks. Are you named after St. Patrick?
Bliss, will definitely check out the devil cite. Thanks!
The color tag is printing because you have the brackets reversed. They should be .burgundy?...
Paul's references to dying daily are part of a rather complex tapestry of verses about death and batptism. In Romans 6 & 7 he wrote that we are "buried with him (Jesus, not Paul) by baptism into death" and that our old man was crucified with Christ. Baptism is not a wet ritual, it's a spiritual identification by which the results of someone else's deeds are imputed to another person.
Israel was baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea despite the fact that they crossed on dry land. The nation of Israel was populated by rank unbelievers--stiffnecked in heart. But because Moses believed, they were all delivered from the nasty, evil, smelly, Egyptians.
Likewise we are indentified with Christ and we receive the benefits of his death. Those include the remission of sin of course, but saying the old man is dead takes that a step farther and implies that our sin nature itself died with Christ, thus enabling us to do what was not possible before, and what is not possible without Christ--to walk by the spirit and fulfill the righteousness of the Law. Some might argue that experience dictates that it is NOT possible to walk thusly because everybody sins. And I would say that is because we still carry the lusts of the flesh, not because the old man and its sin nature are not deceased. And we'd veer wildly off topic, the thread would be highjacked for days on end, leftovers would get cold, football games would go unwatched, and chaos would result. So we won't go there.
As for physical death, I still believe it is an enemy. Having lost my beloved big brother to cancer last year has certainly reinforced that belief, but I think preachers who say death is not an enemy are misrepresenting the Scripture in favor of Christian tradition. If death is not an enemy, why did Jesus raise the dead? Why didn't he comfort the anguished father (Matthew 9:18 - 26) by telling him she was in heaven? If your child is ill and on her deathbed, isn't it selfish to try to save her or to mourn her passing? Why not celebrate and congratulate her for going to be with Jesus before you? You see, it becomes a little absurd when we take the traditional creed to its logical application.
But as Bliss says, we don't really know. Personally, I think God wants to keep it that way. After all, if He wanted us to know what death is like, there would be eyewitness accounts in the Bible. Jesus and Lazarus both died and lived to tell about it, but said not one word about what they experienced or didn't experience. I thnk that's significant.
It could mean that the Old Testament verses about death being a complete lack of consciousness are true and Lazarus and Jesus had nothing to report. The fact that the disciples apparently never even asked them about it may indicate that they all had the same understanding and would have thought of it as a lucirous question.
Or it may be that those who pass that way and come back have to sign a gag order. Maybe God wants to keep us focused on living for Christ and leave the details of what happens next to Him. And that's okay with me.
Am researching for a book on Death. If the devil has the power of death according to the New Testament, what about the Old Testament? How does one explain the plagues? the flood? the annhilation of women, children, animals, etc. who fought Israel? To say that the devil couldn't be mentioned then is wrong. He's mentioned as early as Genesis 3 and other places, particularly Job.
important topic, Irish Eyes. Surely one to handle with care.
As far as books...here is a bookstore i helped organize ...all the titles are in the context of spirituality and end-of-life. Some of them you can't find anywhere else. btw...I have no financial connections to that store, so i am not necessarily posting to say "buy books here"...just that the title-list alone might shake some new possibilities loose.
And oddly enough, some of the main titles are from a deeply Celtic perspective...which goes with your handle quite well (i.e. death through eyes of the irish"). The Christian-Celtic history in end-of-life caregivers and spirituality is a rich rich well of insight you might appreciate. John ODonohue's book "Anamcara" is an amazing read on the Celtic/christian view of dying. More poetic than doctrinal...but the Irish were perhaps more poetic and oral with their spiritual views than many other traditions, anyway
Also, here is a page from my personal website with some links in the fields of death and dying.
just that for now, i guess...No puns intended. But i can probably kill this thread in the twinkle of an eye if i start sharing the depth or span of my views on death and dying. Tho ive written about them plenty enough around here, should anyone be interested.
Tho i will at least say amen to what Clay pointed to regarded the reconciliation of "death being an enemy" and "loving our enemies"...as the biblical truths of death and the devil seems about the opposite of what we have come to believe in modern times. i would even go as far as to say that this point to one of the most significant challenges of our times...which is why it is as hard to say as it is to read. I can't bring myself blame anyone for being in this kind of hard place. We are soaking wet in trouble here...specifically...imho.
As for physical death, I still believe it is an enemy. Having lost my beloved big brother to cancer last year has certainly reinforced that belief, but I think preachers who say death is not an enemy are misrepresenting the Scripture in favor of Christian tradition. If death is not an enemy, why did Jesus raise the dead? Why didn't he comfort the anguished father (Matthew 9:18 - 26) by telling him she was in heaven? If your child is ill and on her deathbed, isn't it selfish to try to save her or to mourn her passing? Why not celebrate and congratulate her for going to be with Jesus before you? You see, it becomes a little absurd when we take the traditional creed to its logical application.
Sorry about your brother. I lost my "baby" brother a couple years back to hep c. It sucks.
I must say, however, that your above quote was awesome. I laughed at some of the other stuff, too, but sometimes just plain old logic wins out, ya know? Jesus never went to a funeral. I have a neighbor who lost her daughter (at 15) two years ago. She will tell you straight up she would rather be in heaven with her than down here. That always blows my mind because I think if I really believed, if she really believed that, why would any of us bother with life? Why shouldn't we love life? Sure there's bad mixed in with the good, but when it's good....
Todd, is the Center for Spiritual Formation connecting to the Center for Spiritual Living that Patrick has talked about?
Roy was kind enough to do a search for me on death on Greasespot, so as I go through those cites I am sure I'll be seeing your views. I have certainly delved into Celtic beliefs to a degree. I get sidetracked I'm afraid with their cute little faeries, etc. No, honestly, it is something I am just beginning to learn about. I went to your website--will try to look at it more thoroughly when I can. I don't think I am looking to find the ANSWERS per se (if that's even available). I am aiming to give people the option of not blaming God when the crap hits the fan.
That always blows my mind because I think if I really believed, if she really believed that, why would any of us bother with life? Why shouldn't we love life?
Its funny you said this , because a few days ago, my pastors wife and I were talking.....
she is battling cancer and all the ''stuff'' that goes with the recoup time......anyway.......
there is always so much bad and hurt and suffering in this world. I said well, if everything was perfect, we'd be in heaven then. ( She said, "yup, and nobody would want to go to heaven.....)
I do love life. But, it really has a lot of sucky parts doesn't it?
I don't think death is a friend. But, it is reality. Inevitable.
I bother with life so I can further His kingdom, worship Him, serve Him, and help others for Him.
I don't think life is here to serve me anymore.
Jesus didn't do anything in regards to funerals and stuff in my opinion is because eternal life wasn't available then anyway............so there was nothing to talk about then.... who knows?
One of my issues with ''believing'' and healing in a broad sense is that, if everything is just ''honkey dorey'' all the time, then, we would be IN HEAVEN now, (or Heaven paradise on earth, whichever you prefer.....)
See, there would be no need for Jesus to come back or for us to go to heaven, cuz, well, life is soo good here. We get all our prayers answered, we can believe to be healed, we can prosper, have abundance, have power............who needs heaven?
Great thread, great posts! Thanks for that link, Bliss – there's a lot of interesting stuff there – I'll have to read some more later. Reading this thread I kept thinking about something I came across in systematic theology…
Some biblical scholars define three types of death:
Physical death – separation of the soul from the body
Spiritual death – separation from God
Eternal death – separation from God forever
In the Bible, death usually has a negative connotation – being disconnected – with reference to God it is alienation from Him. The Bible speaks of death as a punishment for sin - as seen in the first mention of it in Genesis 2:17. Some speculation here: I believe that refers to a spiritual death. I think physical death is a natural part of this present world – Adam and Eve observed death all around them - happening naturally in the plant and animal kingdom. However, even though the first humans were pristine beings, fresh from the factory so to speak – they needed something to maintain perfect health – I assume only humans were allowed to eat of the tree of life.
After Adam and Eve sinned – they were denied access to the tree of life, Genesis 3:22-24…Which makes me wonder – what would life be like if we could do whatever we want but not reap any negative consequences? Certainly, we would feel like gods – but what would save us from our own self-destructive tendencies? Death has an antiseptic quality – a means of inhibiting the growth of sin – of putting an end to something terrible…and that gets me thinking about the death of my mother – mercifully ending the suffering from cancer that literally sucked up the quality of her life.
Death is not always a bad thing, if we think about passages that speak of death to our old life and crucifying sinful desires – again the antiseptic thing…Passages like Ecclesiastes 12 and Luke 13:1-5 speak of our own mortality as cause to reflect on our relationship with God.
Jesus personally neutralized the greatest weapons of our foe – His sacrificial death, resurrection, and role as high priest provide ample support against our mortal enemy,
Hebrews 2:14-18 NASB
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Through the commission of sin - death is earned, so to speak. Perhaps the devil is said to have the power of death only in that he tempts us to commit what induces death – sin.
Romans 5:10-12 NASB
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 6:20-23 NASB
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
James 1:15 NASB
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
I believe God is sovereign – His rule extends over all things – even death
Psalm 90:3-11 NASB
3 You turn man back into dust
And say, "Return, O children of men."
4 For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it passes by,
Or as a watch in the night.
5 You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep;
In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.
6 In the morning it flourishes and sprouts anew;
Toward evening it fades and withers away.
7 For we have been consumed by Your anger
And by Your wrath we have been dismayed.
8 You have placed our iniquities before You,
Our secret sins in the light of Your presence.
9 For all our days have declined in Your fury;
We have finished our years like a sigh.
10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow;
For soon it is gone and we fly away.
11 Who understands the power of Your anger
And Your fury, according to the fear that is due You?
12 So teach us to number our days,
That we may present to You a heart of wisdom.
13 Do return, O LORD; how long will it be?
Ezekiel 18:4 NASB
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Revelation 1: 17, 18 NASB
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 21:1-4 NASB
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Revelation 22:1-5 NASB
1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
But as Bliss says, we don't really know. Personally, I think God wants to keep it that way...
Thanks, Jerry! And sorry about your brother.
I tend to agree with your statement. We don't really know and going further, I can't quite see how we ever will. Sadly, there seems to be lots of things God wants to keep quiet about, which I think is a fundamentally unfather-like thing to do, but that's another discussion. As for the devil, unleashing an invisible being with the power to kill on a basically unsuspecting populace strikes me as a bit sadistic.
So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible.
I don't think death is a friend. But, it is reality.
I bother with life so I can further His kingdom, worship Him, serve Him, and help others for Him.
I don't think life is here to serve me anymore.
One of my issues with ''believing'' and healing in a broad sense is that, if everything is just ''honkey dorey'' all the time, then, we would be IN HEAVEN now,
Bliss,
Loved your logic. I must agree that we have life here on earth to further his kingdom,....and help others for Him. We are His hands and feet. We are not here to further our kingdoms.
And, once again, logic scores a big point with me because why be here on earth if it is like heaven? Not that we are here to suffer, but that perhaps we are here to see how well we do looking at the whole picture. Jesus certainly gives us an example of what to do on earth. Help those in need. Not those who have it all together. So, perhaps the saying that it's not what life throws at us, but how we deal with it, is what really matters.
So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible.
-JJ
JJ: No offense, man, but I do believe there are things in the Bible that are literal. I think God has the ability to protect stuff He wanted us to know. Perhaps I am being naive, but if someone is going to believe the devil is a concept, someone else can believe that God is a concept also. Just suppose the devil is a reality and we ignore him. Do I think he's running around throwing poison darts at who he will? No. I think he probably has the system set up to take its course. Actually, I'm not sure about what else I believe on the matter, hence, this thread. I am trying to make sense out of why the majority of people blame God for death when the Bible says the exact opposite in the New Testament. Because I certainly understand that it seems God controlled death in the Old Testament. I know somewhere there's a scripture that man would live for x-amount of years according to God. So, perhaps not all death is the enemy? At any rate, as someone already said, death is the last thing I wanna do, I just wanna know about it.
How are the three types of death documented? Are there specific references, or is the concept inferred?
Oak, I would say the concept is inferred, and will cite a few references suggested in systematic theologies:
Physical death – Genesis 3:19; I Samuel 2:6; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; 12:7; Matthew 10:28; Luke 20:34-38; Romans 5: 12-14; I Corinthians 15:21; Hebrews 2:14, 15; James 2: 26.
Spiritual death – Genesis 2:17 [noting "…in THE DAY that you eat from it you will surely die."]; 3:7, 8; Isaiah 59: 2; John 3: 3, 5-7; Ephesians 2:1, 2, 5;
Eternal death – Matthew 25:41-46; John 11:26; Revelation 2:11; 14:9-11; 20: 6,14; 21:8 [also referred to as "the second death"].
Its funny you said this , because a few days ago, my pastors wife and I were talking.....
she is battling cancer and all the ''stuff'' that goes with the recoup time......anyway.......
there is always so much bad and hurt and suffering in this world. I said well, if everything was perfect, we'd be in heaven then. ( She said, "yup, and nobody would want to go to heaven.....)
I do love life. But, it really has a lot of sucky parts doesn't it?
I don't think death is a friend. But, it is reality. Inevitable.
I bother with life so I can further His kingdom, worship Him, serve Him, and help others for Him.
I don't think life is here to serve me anymore.
Jesus didn't do anything in regards to funerals and stuff in my opinion is because eternal life wasn't available then anyway............so there was nothing to talk about then.... who knows?
One of my issues with ''believing'' and healing in a broad sense is that, if everything is just ''honkey dorey'' all the time, then, we would be IN HEAVEN now, (or Heaven paradise on earth, whichever you prefer.....)
See, there would be no need for Jesus to come back or for us to go to heaven, cuz, well, life is soo good here. We get all our prayers answered, we can believe to be healed, we can prosper, have abundance, have power............who needs heaven?
better yet
who needs God?
see where I am going with this.....?
just a thought
Hi Bliss. Well this is entirely rhetorical so it's not worth arguing about. But...
if everything was hunky dorey all the time... if we got what we prayed for all the time and got healed on a regular basis et al, we would be doing some awesome outreach eh what?. The gospel would spread like wildfire because the benefits of salvation would be so obvious that everyone would aknowledge the power of the risen Christ and every sane, humble person would be drawn to Christ. I guess that's what it was like in Jerusalem for a few years after Pentecost (when people got healed simply by being touched by Peter's shadow).
You are right Jerry.... that would be a great witness!
So, what happend to Paul?
Where was his ''abundant life?"
I seem to think he moved the gospel even more than the original apostles did.
I believe that it was a special grace period God gave the apostles to get a kick start and because it was so close to Christ's resurrection.
But, most all of them died in the most gruesome deaths.
All the while , Saul was arresting, and persecuting Christians before his conversion.
Stephen , doing God's will, was then killed.
It would be nice if we could sign up for that. But, if the apostles after a few years, didn't have it... I doubt it
is ''available'' now.
That is the problem with trying to witness the ''more abundant life''. It's not reality. The moment a new Christian gets hit with problems............he's tormented in many ways. Doubt and condemnation ensue.
We are to witness Christ, eternal life, and having a relationship with Him( that is the life more abundant...)
Not all the ''stuff'' you can do or get.
I thought I was getting that kind of ''abundant'' life when I signed the green card............................................. <_<
JJ: No offense, man, but I do believe there are things in the Bible that are literal. I think God has the ability to protect stuff He wanted us to know. Perhaps I am being naive, but if someone is going to believe the devil is a concept, someone else can believe that God is a concept also. Just suppose the devil is a reality and we ignore him. Do I think he's running around throwing poison darts at who he will? No. I think he probably has the system set up to take its course. Actually, I'm not sure about what else I believe on the matter, hence, this thread. I am trying to make sense out of why the majority of people blame God for death when the Bible says the exact opposite in the New Testament. Because I certainly understand that it seems God controlled death in the Old Testament. I know somewhere there's a scripture that man would live for x-amount of years according to God. So, perhaps not all death is the enemy? At any rate, as someone already said, death is the last thing I wanna do, I just wanna know about it.
No offense taken, eyes!
Interesting about setting it up to take its course. I very often feel this is what God did as well. Like the devil not running around throwing darts, I don't see a lot of God going around answering prayers. If He did, it would be as JBarrax and Bliss noted, a wonderful time to be alive with near endless ourtreach possibilities. Maybe then humanity wouldn't care all that much about death. They would be confident in God and uncaring about what death might bring.
I'm not so sure about the controlling aspect though. The OT is very clear about who controlled death and even if the NT says God isn't the author of death, He certainly encouraged and condoned the killing back in the day. And why would God be equivocal about it? Let your yeah be yeah, or whatever that phrase is. Don't tell us in one set of writings you're doing the killing and in another set of writings you're not. Like the world isn't confused enough already when it comes to the things of God!?!?
I don't see a lot of God going around answering prayers.
I'm not so sure about the controlling aspect though. The OT is very clear about who controlled death and even if the NT says God isn't the author of death, He certainly encouraged and condoned the killing back in the day. And why would God be equivocal about it? Let your yeah be yeah, or whatever that phrase is. Don't tell us in one set of writings you're doing the killing and in another set of writings you're not. Like the world isn't confused enough already when it comes to the things of God!?!?
-JJ
JJ:
Good points, bro. Here's one for ya. In Daniel it says he prayed three weeks for something and an angel finally came and said he had been fighting with the devil for three weeks to get there to take care of it. So, it is possible that there's so much behind the scenes we don't see or know about.
Interesting thought here: It's quite easy for us to say that something is unfair (hey, umpire, why didn't you call a foul when that jerk tripped my kid?) when it is against US, but what about the times something unfair happens and it's in our favor. Are we so quick to bring that to the ump's attention? That is kind of how I think of prayer these days. I think God answers our prayers, I just think sometimes the answer is "no" and we just can't accept that. Then there are times things are going our way and rather than thank God for it (as in all good things come from the Lord), we complain about the bad stuff and never give God the glory for the good. And then there are times things are going on behind the scenes as in "we wrestle not against flesh and blood." I have three kids. I want them to talk to me (most of the time). I think God wants us to talk to Him, too. Silly? Maybe.
I have a niggling doubt about the OT and death. It involves sin and I haven't quite gotten to the point of being able to express it in words, but hopefully I'll get there. You ARE SO RIGHT! It is confusing and I'd love to know how others justify it or not. Any bites?
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I'm thinking that Paul meant that the Ego self or Egatic self is put to death....the old man that did not consiously line himself up with Spirit. Old beliefs that manifest as bondage are replaced with propper thinking as we renew our mind. So we could look at the annihilation of the old, and the replacing with the new, as death to the old man. Life in the new man.......Christ.
Patrick
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cman
if we see the opening, we can walk in
not knowing really what is on the other side
only recognizing the voice that is heard
who is doing what?
unless one forgets
they will be reminded.....
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bliss
Great topic!
I think we will never really know , well, until we die..................
I just rest in the fact that God has it covered, Jesus conquered death, so I will be alright! There is comfort in that. It doesn't all end here.........with a slow ride in a herse.
If our ''spirits'' go back to God..............then, we ARE with God, right away!
I came across this site a while back, and it really got me thinking.
It kinda goes along with WS thinking in this post as to what is the devil etc...
If you want to get yourself in a tizzy and your brain cells burning............check it out.
We could do another thread on it!
http://www.realdevil.info/devilcontents.htm
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irisheyes
[i'm thinking that Paul meant that the Ego self or Egatic self is put to death....the old man that did not consiously line himself up with Spirit. Old beliefs that manifest as bondage are replaced with propper thinking as we renew our mind. So we could look at the annihilation of the old, and the replacing with the new, as death to the old man. Life in the new man.......Christ.
Patrick
Patrick, I think that makes sense. I should have looked up the context, but I didn't. Thanks. Are you named after St. Patrick?
Bliss, will definitely check out the devil cite. Thanks!
CMan: You lost me ....
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Jbarrax
Irish. HiHowAreYa.
The color tag is printing because you have the brackets reversed. They should be .burgundy?...
Paul's references to dying daily are part of a rather complex tapestry of verses about death and batptism. In Romans 6 & 7 he wrote that we are "buried with him (Jesus, not Paul) by baptism into death" and that our old man was crucified with Christ. Baptism is not a wet ritual, it's a spiritual identification by which the results of someone else's deeds are imputed to another person.
Israel was baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea despite the fact that they crossed on dry land. The nation of Israel was populated by rank unbelievers--stiffnecked in heart. But because Moses believed, they were all delivered from the nasty, evil, smelly, Egyptians.
Likewise we are indentified with Christ and we receive the benefits of his death. Those include the remission of sin of course, but saying the old man is dead takes that a step farther and implies that our sin nature itself died with Christ, thus enabling us to do what was not possible before, and what is not possible without Christ--to walk by the spirit and fulfill the righteousness of the Law. Some might argue that experience dictates that it is NOT possible to walk thusly because everybody sins. And I would say that is because we still carry the lusts of the flesh, not because the old man and its sin nature are not deceased. And we'd veer wildly off topic, the thread would be highjacked for days on end, leftovers would get cold, football games would go unwatched, and chaos would result. So we won't go there.
As for physical death, I still believe it is an enemy. Having lost my beloved big brother to cancer last year has certainly reinforced that belief, but I think preachers who say death is not an enemy are misrepresenting the Scripture in favor of Christian tradition. If death is not an enemy, why did Jesus raise the dead? Why didn't he comfort the anguished father (Matthew 9:18 - 26) by telling him she was in heaven? If your child is ill and on her deathbed, isn't it selfish to try to save her or to mourn her passing? Why not celebrate and congratulate her for going to be with Jesus before you? You see, it becomes a little absurd when we take the traditional creed to its logical application.
But as Bliss says, we don't really know. Personally, I think God wants to keep it that way. After all, if He wanted us to know what death is like, there would be eyewitness accounts in the Bible. Jesus and Lazarus both died and lived to tell about it, but said not one word about what they experienced or didn't experience. I thnk that's significant.
It could mean that the Old Testament verses about death being a complete lack of consciousness are true and Lazarus and Jesus had nothing to report. The fact that the disciples apparently never even asked them about it may indicate that they all had the same understanding and would have thought of it as a lucirous question.
Or it may be that those who pass that way and come back have to sign a gag order. Maybe God wants to keep us focused on living for Christ and leave the details of what happens next to Him. And that's okay with me.
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sirguessalot
important topic, Irish Eyes. Surely one to handle with care.
As far as books...here is a bookstore i helped organize ...all the titles are in the context of spirituality and end-of-life. Some of them you can't find anywhere else. btw...I have no financial connections to that store, so i am not necessarily posting to say "buy books here"...just that the title-list alone might shake some new possibilities loose.
And oddly enough, some of the main titles are from a deeply Celtic perspective...which goes with your handle quite well (i.e. death through eyes of the irish"). The Christian-Celtic history in end-of-life caregivers and spirituality is a rich rich well of insight you might appreciate. John ODonohue's book "Anamcara" is an amazing read on the Celtic/christian view of dying. More poetic than doctrinal...but the Irish were perhaps more poetic and oral with their spiritual views than many other traditions, anyway
Also, here is a page from my personal website with some links in the fields of death and dying.
just that for now, i guess...No puns intended. But i can probably kill this thread in the twinkle of an eye if i start sharing the depth or span of my views on death and dying. Tho ive written about them plenty enough around here, should anyone be interested.
Tho i will at least say amen to what Clay pointed to regarded the reconciliation of "death being an enemy" and "loving our enemies"...as the biblical truths of death and the devil seems about the opposite of what we have come to believe in modern times. i would even go as far as to say that this point to one of the most significant challenges of our times...which is why it is as hard to say as it is to read. I can't bring myself blame anyone for being in this kind of hard place. We are soaking wet in trouble here...specifically...imho.
space and grace
+ODD
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irisheyes
Sorry about your brother. I lost my "baby" brother a couple years back to hep c. It sucks.
I must say, however, that your above quote was awesome. I laughed at some of the other stuff, too, but sometimes just plain old logic wins out, ya know? Jesus never went to a funeral. I have a neighbor who lost her daughter (at 15) two years ago. She will tell you straight up she would rather be in heaven with her than down here. That always blows my mind because I think if I really believed, if she really believed that, why would any of us bother with life? Why shouldn't we love life? Sure there's bad mixed in with the good, but when it's good....
Anyway, THANKS!
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irisheyes
Todd, is the Center for Spiritual Formation connecting to the Center for Spiritual Living that Patrick has talked about?
Roy was kind enough to do a search for me on death on Greasespot, so as I go through those cites I am sure I'll be seeing your views. I have certainly delved into Celtic beliefs to a degree. I get sidetracked I'm afraid with their cute little faeries, etc. No, honestly, it is something I am just beginning to learn about. I went to your website--will try to look at it more thoroughly when I can. I don't think I am looking to find the ANSWERS per se (if that's even available). I am aiming to give people the option of not blaming God when the crap hits the fan.
Thanks!
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sirguessalot
no...but both sure are genericly named enough to sound alike
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bliss
Its funny you said this , because a few days ago, my pastors wife and I were talking.....
she is battling cancer and all the ''stuff'' that goes with the recoup time......anyway.......
there is always so much bad and hurt and suffering in this world. I said well, if everything was perfect, we'd be in heaven then. ( She said, "yup, and nobody would want to go to heaven.....)
I do love life. But, it really has a lot of sucky parts doesn't it?
I don't think death is a friend. But, it is reality. Inevitable.
I bother with life so I can further His kingdom, worship Him, serve Him, and help others for Him.
I don't think life is here to serve me anymore.
Jesus didn't do anything in regards to funerals and stuff in my opinion is because eternal life wasn't available then anyway............so there was nothing to talk about then.... who knows?
One of my issues with ''believing'' and healing in a broad sense is that, if everything is just ''honkey dorey'' all the time, then, we would be IN HEAVEN now, (or Heaven paradise on earth, whichever you prefer.....)
See, there would be no need for Jesus to come back or for us to go to heaven, cuz, well, life is soo good here. We get all our prayers answered, we can believe to be healed, we can prosper, have abundance, have power............who needs heaven?
better yet
who needs God?
see where I am going with this.....?
just a thought
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waysider
Bliss
Thanks for the link in post#29.
I looked at a bit of it earlier.
Very interesting.
I plan to read more of it as time permits.
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T-Bone
Great thread, great posts! Thanks for that link, Bliss – there's a lot of interesting stuff there – I'll have to read some more later. Reading this thread I kept thinking about something I came across in systematic theology…
Some biblical scholars define three types of death:
Physical death – separation of the soul from the body
Spiritual death – separation from God
Eternal death – separation from God forever
In the Bible, death usually has a negative connotation – being disconnected – with reference to God it is alienation from Him. The Bible speaks of death as a punishment for sin - as seen in the first mention of it in Genesis 2:17. Some speculation here: I believe that refers to a spiritual death. I think physical death is a natural part of this present world – Adam and Eve observed death all around them - happening naturally in the plant and animal kingdom. However, even though the first humans were pristine beings, fresh from the factory so to speak – they needed something to maintain perfect health – I assume only humans were allowed to eat of the tree of life.
After Adam and Eve sinned – they were denied access to the tree of life, Genesis 3:22-24…Which makes me wonder – what would life be like if we could do whatever we want but not reap any negative consequences? Certainly, we would feel like gods – but what would save us from our own self-destructive tendencies? Death has an antiseptic quality – a means of inhibiting the growth of sin – of putting an end to something terrible…and that gets me thinking about the death of my mother – mercifully ending the suffering from cancer that literally sucked up the quality of her life.
Death is not always a bad thing, if we think about passages that speak of death to our old life and crucifying sinful desires – again the antiseptic thing…Passages like Ecclesiastes 12 and Luke 13:1-5 speak of our own mortality as cause to reflect on our relationship with God.
Jesus personally neutralized the greatest weapons of our foe – His sacrificial death, resurrection, and role as high priest provide ample support against our mortal enemy,
Hebrews 2:14-18 NASB
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Through the commission of sin - death is earned, so to speak. Perhaps the devil is said to have the power of death only in that he tempts us to commit what induces death – sin.
Romans 5:10-12 NASB
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 6:20-23 NASB
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
James 1:15 NASB
Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
I believe God is sovereign – His rule extends over all things – even death
Psalm 90:3-11 NASB
3 You turn man back into dust
And say, "Return, O children of men."
4 For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it passes by,
Or as a watch in the night.
5 You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep;
In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.
6 In the morning it flourishes and sprouts anew;
Toward evening it fades and withers away.
7 For we have been consumed by Your anger
And by Your wrath we have been dismayed.
8 You have placed our iniquities before You,
Our secret sins in the light of Your presence.
9 For all our days have declined in Your fury;
We have finished our years like a sigh.
10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow;
For soon it is gone and we fly away.
11 Who understands the power of Your anger
And Your fury, according to the fear that is due You?
12 So teach us to number our days,
That we may present to You a heart of wisdom.
13 Do return, O LORD; how long will it be?
Ezekiel 18:4 NASB
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Revelation 1: 17, 18 NASB
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
Revelation 21:1-4 NASB
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Revelation 22:1-5 NASB
1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
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Oakspear
T-Bone:
How are the three types of death documented? Are there specific references, or is the concept inferred?
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George Aar
I believe death is nature's way of telling us to slow down...
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JumpinJive
Thanks, Jerry! And sorry about your brother.
I tend to agree with your statement. We don't really know and going further, I can't quite see how we ever will. Sadly, there seems to be lots of things God wants to keep quiet about, which I think is a fundamentally unfather-like thing to do, but that's another discussion. As for the devil, unleashing an invisible being with the power to kill on a basically unsuspecting populace strikes me as a bit sadistic.
So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible.
-JJ
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cman
KJV: Jn 1:18
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
KJV: 1 Jn 4:12
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
KJV: 3 Jn 11
11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
getting to the last enemy takes a lot of love
and seems to say there are other enemies
if no man hath seen God, how do we see God?
---
and yeah sirguessalot helped with that site and is quite familiar with the material
i didn't mention it because i didn't know what reaction i would get
so we get a few different inputs this way, which is good
he just gave me the links and i read 'em
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irisheyes
Bliss,
Loved your logic. I must agree that we have life here on earth to further his kingdom,....and help others for Him. We are His hands and feet. We are not here to further our kingdoms.
And, once again, logic scores a big point with me because why be here on earth if it is like heaven? Not that we are here to suffer, but that perhaps we are here to see how well we do looking at the whole picture. Jesus certainly gives us an example of what to do on earth. Help those in need. Not those who have it all together. So, perhaps the saying that it's not what life throws at us, but how we deal with it, is what really matters.
Thanks for your time and input.
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irisheyes
[quote name='JumpinJive' date='Nov 25 2007, 12:52 PM' post='383741
So, I'm thinking we don't know, its unlikely we will know in this lifetime, and I'm not real sure its worth finding out, if in fact one believes literally in the discusssions of death and the devil in the bible.
-JJ
JJ: No offense, man, but I do believe there are things in the Bible that are literal. I think God has the ability to protect stuff He wanted us to know. Perhaps I am being naive, but if someone is going to believe the devil is a concept, someone else can believe that God is a concept also. Just suppose the devil is a reality and we ignore him. Do I think he's running around throwing poison darts at who he will? No. I think he probably has the system set up to take its course. Actually, I'm not sure about what else I believe on the matter, hence, this thread. I am trying to make sense out of why the majority of people blame God for death when the Bible says the exact opposite in the New Testament. Because I certainly understand that it seems God controlled death in the Old Testament. I know somewhere there's a scripture that man would live for x-amount of years according to God. So, perhaps not all death is the enemy? At any rate, as someone already said, death is the last thing I wanna do, I just wanna know about it.
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T-Bone
Oak, I would say the concept is inferred, and will cite a few references suggested in systematic theologies:
Physical death – Genesis 3:19; I Samuel 2:6; Ecclesiastes 3:19-21; 12:7; Matthew 10:28; Luke 20:34-38; Romans 5: 12-14; I Corinthians 15:21; Hebrews 2:14, 15; James 2: 26.
Spiritual death – Genesis 2:17 [noting "…in THE DAY that you eat from it you will surely die."]; 3:7, 8; Isaiah 59: 2; John 3: 3, 5-7; Ephesians 2:1, 2, 5;
Eternal death – Matthew 25:41-46; John 11:26; Revelation 2:11; 14:9-11; 20: 6,14; 21:8 [also referred to as "the second death"].
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Jbarrax
Hi Bliss. Well this is entirely rhetorical so it's not worth arguing about. But...
if everything was hunky dorey all the time... if we got what we prayed for all the time and got healed on a regular basis et al, we would be doing some awesome outreach eh what?. The gospel would spread like wildfire because the benefits of salvation would be so obvious that everyone would aknowledge the power of the risen Christ and every sane, humble person would be drawn to Christ. I guess that's what it was like in Jerusalem for a few years after Pentecost (when people got healed simply by being touched by Peter's shadow).
Where can we sign up for that?
Peace
JerryB
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bliss
You are right Jerry.... that would be a great witness!
So, what happend to Paul?
Where was his ''abundant life?"
I seem to think he moved the gospel even more than the original apostles did.
I believe that it was a special grace period God gave the apostles to get a kick start and because it was so close to Christ's resurrection.
But, most all of them died in the most gruesome deaths.
All the while , Saul was arresting, and persecuting Christians before his conversion.
Stephen , doing God's will, was then killed.
It would be nice if we could sign up for that. But, if the apostles after a few years, didn't have it... I doubt it
is ''available'' now.
That is the problem with trying to witness the ''more abundant life''. It's not reality. The moment a new Christian gets hit with problems............he's tormented in many ways. Doubt and condemnation ensue.
We are to witness Christ, eternal life, and having a relationship with Him( that is the life more abundant...)
Not all the ''stuff'' you can do or get.
I thought I was getting that kind of ''abundant'' life when I signed the green card............................................. <_<
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JumpinJive
No offense taken, eyes!
Interesting about setting it up to take its course. I very often feel this is what God did as well. Like the devil not running around throwing darts, I don't see a lot of God going around answering prayers. If He did, it would be as JBarrax and Bliss noted, a wonderful time to be alive with near endless ourtreach possibilities. Maybe then humanity wouldn't care all that much about death. They would be confident in God and uncaring about what death might bring.
I'm not so sure about the controlling aspect though. The OT is very clear about who controlled death and even if the NT says God isn't the author of death, He certainly encouraged and condoned the killing back in the day. And why would God be equivocal about it? Let your yeah be yeah, or whatever that phrase is. Don't tell us in one set of writings you're doing the killing and in another set of writings you're not. Like the world isn't confused enough already when it comes to the things of God!?!?
-JJ
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irisheyes
JJ:
Good points, bro. Here's one for ya. In Daniel it says he prayed three weeks for something and an angel finally came and said he had been fighting with the devil for three weeks to get there to take care of it. So, it is possible that there's so much behind the scenes we don't see or know about.
Interesting thought here: It's quite easy for us to say that something is unfair (hey, umpire, why didn't you call a foul when that jerk tripped my kid?) when it is against US, but what about the times something unfair happens and it's in our favor. Are we so quick to bring that to the ump's attention? That is kind of how I think of prayer these days. I think God answers our prayers, I just think sometimes the answer is "no" and we just can't accept that. Then there are times things are going our way and rather than thank God for it (as in all good things come from the Lord), we complain about the bad stuff and never give God the glory for the good. And then there are times things are going on behind the scenes as in "we wrestle not against flesh and blood." I have three kids. I want them to talk to me (most of the time). I think God wants us to talk to Him, too. Silly? Maybe.
I have a niggling doubt about the OT and death. It involves sin and I haven't quite gotten to the point of being able to express it in words, but hopefully I'll get there. You ARE SO RIGHT! It is confusing and I'd love to know how others justify it or not. Any bites?
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waysider
Here's a bit of a twist on the "concept/reality" train of thought:
Gravitational force is a scientific concept.
One can perform scientific tests to prove its existence.
Still, under some circumstances, its effects are reduced or even nullified.
----BUT-------
If you should step out of a 17th story window, the concept will immediately and profoundly take on an element of reality.
Perhaps the devil is like this, also.
His entity is conceptual in nature but failure to follow the prescribed "rules" will evoke a very real effect.
Maybe death, too, is a multi-faceted concept that takes on a very real identity when we cease to breath.
Now, I suppose one could pose the question, "Is God a concept or reality?" That would be a fair and reasonable question for the human mind to ponder.
Countless numbers have done so through the course of time.
Perhaps the very act of pondering this question is part of the "master plan".
It may allow you to see truths you might never see if you adhere to the edict heralded in session #7 of PLAF.
ie:" Thou shalt never consider.(ponder)
Without the ability to at least consider and even respond, we commit ourselves to accepting what is handed to us.
That's not always in our best interests, as we have seen from observing the very real outcome of the concepts expounded by TWI.
As alwaYS---- jUST MY OPINION.
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