If God has foreknowledge of all things - where does that leave prayer, intercession? Or are we to say that He knew that we would pray in a certain situation, and that He would then "fix it" from our perspective? What, then, in fact, does prayer change?
And yet we are exhorted to pray, to ask for the things that we need (ie, not just prayers of thankfulness).
Good questions, Twinky! That's always a tough one to think about from a human perspective – creatures confined to a certain space & time. Imagine yourself in God's shoes – and seeing down the road that a certain person will pray for a particular situation. Being God, you have it in your power to orchestrate things ahead of time to accommodate that prayer. That prayer is actually part of the means for what comes to pass. In other words, if that prayer was not made the outcome from the chain of events would be different.
It's mind-boggling to consider the complexity of contingencies in any situation – yet to an infinite being [not bound by space & time] – God's perspective may be as one who can fast forward/rewind/pause a movie. That analogy isn't the best, I suppose – maybe it's more like an interactive game than a movie. Being interactive – everyone – including God – is a player. All of this is mere speculation, of course. The Bible doesn't offer any technical information on how God, prayer, or foreknowledge works.
God knows what we need but we're exhorted to ask Him for what we need. Perhaps God wants us to have a sense of partnership with Him.
This is the way I figure it in my simple mind. Lord have mercy, if it gets complicated I lose myself. Father has foreknowledge. He already knows what is going to happen but He doesn't orchestrate or ordain it.
I was raised in a religion that taught God punished by making you sick, having bad things happen, and ultimately, if you were too bad, allowing you to die. If it happens to you then it is God's will. It was a relief to me when I learned differently.
Father God would never treat us differently than He treated His Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He never wants or provides less for us. We have the same Father as Christ. Did Christ have free will? Yippie skippy. But did Father know ahead of time what the Lord would choose. Bingo.
I say everyday, I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Watered Garden, love, remember that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. I swear to this day if it had not been for the prayers of my mother I don't know if I would be here. I truly believe her prayers turned my life around. Our Father is faithful to His Word. As a mother, my heart goes out to you for your child. Blessings to you and yours.
I think part of this problem is considering where God exists or when.
I've heard from a lot of people that God exists outside of time... "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day."
I've also heard the the idea that God sees time from a birds eye view, so to speak, seeing it all at once.
So, I don't think the ratio of 1:365,250 (one day to the number of days in a thousand years) is of importance, it could be a million years or a trillion years as a day. It's the concept being expressed.
So what of the "days" of creation. I've heard this point made that "a day is as a thousand years" so the six days of creation could have been the millions of years that science says. Why stop there, though? What about the other side of that quote... "a thousand years as a day"? For God existing outside of time he would not just create the beginning but he would create the beginning to the end all at once.
"FOREknowledge" and "PREdestination" are too linear for a being existing outside of time. Foreknowledge is a human perspective. For God as most Christians and some other religions perceive him it is just knowledge of all things... all knowing. Predestination is again a human perspective. For God it would just be creation.
I think part of this problem is considering where God exists or when.
I've heard from a lot of people that God exists outside of time... "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day."
I've also heard the the idea that God sees time from a birds eye view, so to speak, seeing it all at once.
So, I don't think the ratio of 1:365,250 (one day to the number of days in a thousand years) is of importance, it could be a million years or a trillion years as a day. It's the concept being expressed.
So what of the "days" of creation. I've heard this point made that "a day is as a thousand years" so the six days of creation could have been the millions of years that science says. Why stop there, though? What about the other side of that quote... "a thousand years as a day"? For God existing outside of time he would not just create the beginning but he would create the beginning to the end all at once.
"FOREknowledge" and "PREdestination" are too linear for a being existing outside of time. Foreknowledge is a human perspective. For God as most Christians and some other religions perceive him it is just knowledge of all things... all knowing. Predestination is again a human perspective. For God it would just be creation.
I wonder in what way might these notions affect (if at all) the idea of a deity which had absolutely nothing to do with bringing about this "creation" about us?
Countless numbers among Christian movements during the 2nd century didn't view the "creation" as having originated with the deity announced
and revealed by the heavenly "Krestus" Spirit. Many among the same did not subscribe to the view that the Stranger from another World
had entered this realm with the purpose of fulfilling any plans laid out by the Old Testament demiurge through his lying prophets.
According to the ideas held among at least half the Christian population throughout the Roman empire, they didn't deem "Isu" as having even been prophesied or foreseen
at all by the demiurge Jehovah and his angelic minions.
It's interesting that the expression, "from before the foundation of the world" (Eph.1), might also be interpreted, "before the overthrow of this Aeon" or if you will,
"before the overthrow of the god", according to that peculiar perspective among half the Christian population during the second century.
It's kinda my three D's. Add to that you're invisible and your name is Dan and that makes it four D's... (the number of earthly things and is very unlucky in Chinese) I just can't go any further with you without possibly infecting my keyboard and eventually me and most likely my immediate family and perhaps other inanimate objects in my home. I don't know what I would do if you infected my TV. You could infect FoxNews then and God knows what else.
I have spam-ware and spy-ware protections but I don't yet have demon-ware. Until then... ixnay on the Arcionmay uffstay. Okay, uh, ay?
Joyce Meyer said something this morning that kinda reminded me of this thread. It had to do with fruit of the spirit. She used a camera, took a picture of someone in the audience, and then mentioned this picture has to be developed in a dark room. Likewise, she said fruit of the spirit is developed in the dark room of our trials to ultimately become a picture of the spirit living within us.
I think I paraphrased that a bit, but it reminded me of how so many churches, including the one we now attend, teach that God is in total control over every little thing without exception. God already has picked out the next president and what he will do or not do. God selected Adolf Hitler to be Chancellor of Germany or whatever and on and on.
God gives us holy spirit when we are saved, and then how we develop it is of our free will.
I think two of the very biggest problems in churches today are that they don't recognize the difference between foreknowledge and predestination and that they completely ignore Satan's existence and blame God for everything that happens.
I do see a lot in Scripture where something awful happens to somebody, e.g., Joseph, and God is able to take that situation and make something great out of it after all. Actually the crucifixion and death of Jesus would fit that category. But Jesus Himself said in Gethsemane that he could call 10 legions of angels against the priest's men sent to arrest him. So he had free will, it would appear.
The other thing she said is that meekness is strength under control.
Joyce Meyer said something this morning that kinda reminded me of this thread. It had to do with fruit of the spirit. She used a camera, took a picture of someone in the audience, and then mentioned this picture has to be developed in a dark room. Likewise, she said fruit of the spirit is developed in the dark room of our trials to ultimately become a picture of the spirit living within us.
WG
Developed?
Dark room?
Girl, time to come up with some new, 21st Century analogies!
So, solly chooly, Raf, you did not get the analogy.....from darkness to life.....development.....there is nothing new under the sun.....21st century that.
WG thank you for that. Holy moly, I am sick of people blaming God for what they have chosen. God is not in control of us. We are in control of us. His Word is so explicit.....if you choose this.....if you choose that.....
So, solly chooly, Raf, you did not get the analogy.....from darkness to life.....development.....there is nothing new under the sun.....21st century that.
WG thank you for that. Holy moly, I am sick of people blaming God for what they have chosen. God is not in control of us. We are in control of us. His Word is so explicit.....if you choose this.....if you choose that.....
For what it's worth, I haven't really seen many people blaming God for choices they made.
I do think, however, that The Way needs to share in the blame for choices we made because many of those choices were based on false and misleading information they supplied.
(refer to "The Renewed Mind" thread for a discussion of who was in control.)
Waysider, when I said I am sick of people blaming God I was not referring to any posters on this site. I was posting about the many I live in the trenches of life with.
Please direct me to the Renewed Mind thread. I can't seem to find it.
This is the way I figure it in my simple mind. Lord have mercy, if it gets complicated I lose myself. Father has foreknowledge. He already knows what is going to happen but He doesn't orchestrate or ordain it.
I was raised in a religion that taught God punished by making you sick, having bad things happen, and ultimately, if you were too bad, allowing you to die. If it happens to you then it is God's will. It was a relief to me when I learned differently.
Father God would never treat us differently than He treated His Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He never wants or provides less for us. We have the same Father as Christ. Did Christ have free will? Yippie skippy. But did Father know ahead of time what the Lord would choose. Bingo.
I say everyday, I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Watered Garden, love, remember that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. I swear to this day if it had not been for the prayers of my mother I don't know if I would be here. I truly believe her prayers turned my life around. Our Father is faithful to His Word. As a mother, my heart goes out to you for your child. Blessings to you and yours.
Hi Kimberly,
This is addressed to all of your posts on this thread. I find your perspective interesting. I also think it is limited. I see that as a problem with the Church today. God is not as simplistic as we are. Our understanding of Him in relation to good and evil must not be simplistic or frivolous.
How can such a view explain the massive suffering and the pain felt by so many people in this world? Is it just ex-way and current way and a few stumbling church goers that can effect their own destiny by rightly believing? Is God that cold and immune to the suffering of those who don't see this way?
We are not naive about pain and suffering. I am sure you have had your share. To say that God does not orchestrate or ordain things runs contrary to scriptures.
Daniel 2:20 and declared:May the name of God be praised forever and ever, for wisdom and power belong to Him.21 He changes the times and seasons He removes kings and establishes kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding.
Proverbs 21:20 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.
1Peter3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.
If we look closely enough at scripture we see that God's hand is sovereign over even satan-life-death. Look at Job or Peter when he was sifted. Who did Satan approach for permission?
We can have confidence that God is able to use suffering for good. Not that He would ever tempt us, but will use our pain and suffering to refine and perfect us. The bible tells us to be patient during this time. I agree that God is not punitive, but the bible does tell us He chastens those He loves.
As for Him treating us no different than Christ? Jesus never sinned. He was perfect and yet God sacrificed Him for us while we were yet sinners. Here we must get into who Christ really is, I will pass on that debate.
Jesus said
John 10:18 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
I wonder what you do with a verse like this Deuteronomy 32:39 39 “ ‘See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Jesus quoted most from Deuteronomy.
1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that. As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
It is a bit more complex than an ineffectual God who is impotent and a bystander. He is sovereign as scripture tells us He is. His hand and face are not open and obvious, we have to seek Him out.
Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
In all this Job never charged God with wrong, but knew God to be sovereign. People don't blame God Kimberly. They despise Satan and know his evil and look right past him to God and His hand and then His mercy. That is where the security lies. In the sovereign power of God to allow our trials for a time, and to use them for good.
What comfort is there in Satan's ability to freely destroy and our own ability to "believe?"
I would just say that if anyone's knowledge of God is based on what we learned in the Way, it might be time to expand our horizons. Just a hope. We don't blame God we praise Him. His ways are not our ways. His wisdom is beyond ours. That is why we have faith in Him even in our darkest times. He knows best. How can we have faith in Him when the walls come down and we think we or satan are in complete control?
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cman
I do believe we have foreknowledge/predestination.
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TheInvisibleDan
Shoot, I don't even have an appointment book.
Though I do tend to jot things down on a wall calender.
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T-Bone
Good questions, Twinky! That's always a tough one to think about from a human perspective – creatures confined to a certain space & time. Imagine yourself in God's shoes – and seeing down the road that a certain person will pray for a particular situation. Being God, you have it in your power to orchestrate things ahead of time to accommodate that prayer. That prayer is actually part of the means for what comes to pass. In other words, if that prayer was not made the outcome from the chain of events would be different.
It's mind-boggling to consider the complexity of contingencies in any situation – yet to an infinite being [not bound by space & time] – God's perspective may be as one who can fast forward/rewind/pause a movie. That analogy isn't the best, I suppose – maybe it's more like an interactive game than a movie. Being interactive – everyone – including God – is a player. All of this is mere speculation, of course. The Bible doesn't offer any technical information on how God, prayer, or foreknowledge works.
God knows what we need but we're exhorted to ask Him for what we need. Perhaps God wants us to have a sense of partnership with Him.
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kimberly
This is the way I figure it in my simple mind. Lord have mercy, if it gets complicated I lose myself. Father has foreknowledge. He already knows what is going to happen but He doesn't orchestrate or ordain it.
I was raised in a religion that taught God punished by making you sick, having bad things happen, and ultimately, if you were too bad, allowing you to die. If it happens to you then it is God's will. It was a relief to me when I learned differently.
Father God would never treat us differently than He treated His Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He never wants or provides less for us. We have the same Father as Christ. Did Christ have free will? Yippie skippy. But did Father know ahead of time what the Lord would choose. Bingo.
I say everyday, I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Watered Garden, love, remember that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. I swear to this day if it had not been for the prayers of my mother I don't know if I would be here. I truly believe her prayers turned my life around. Our Father is faithful to His Word. As a mother, my heart goes out to you for your child. Blessings to you and yours.
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kimberly
Watered Garden, I forgot to mention that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only perfect One to walk on this earth and He did a heap of praying.
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lindyhopper
I think part of this problem is considering where God exists or when.
I've heard from a lot of people that God exists outside of time... "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day."
I've also heard the the idea that God sees time from a birds eye view, so to speak, seeing it all at once.
So, I don't think the ratio of 1:365,250 (one day to the number of days in a thousand years) is of importance, it could be a million years or a trillion years as a day. It's the concept being expressed.
So what of the "days" of creation. I've heard this point made that "a day is as a thousand years" so the six days of creation could have been the millions of years that science says. Why stop there, though? What about the other side of that quote... "a thousand years as a day"? For God existing outside of time he would not just create the beginning but he would create the beginning to the end all at once.
"FOREknowledge" and "PREdestination" are too linear for a being existing outside of time. Foreknowledge is a human perspective. For God as most Christians and some other religions perceive him it is just knowledge of all things... all knowing. Predestination is again a human perspective. For God it would just be creation.
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TheInvisibleDan
I wonder in what way might these notions affect (if at all) the idea of a deity which had absolutely nothing to do with bringing about this "creation" about us?
Countless numbers among Christian movements during the 2nd century didn't view the "creation" as having originated with the deity announced
and revealed by the heavenly "Krestus" Spirit. Many among the same did not subscribe to the view that the Stranger from another World
had entered this realm with the purpose of fulfilling any plans laid out by the Old Testament demiurge through his lying prophets.
According to the ideas held among at least half the Christian population throughout the Roman empire, they didn't deem "Isu" as having even been prophesied or foreseen
at all by the demiurge Jehovah and his angelic minions.
It's interesting that the expression, "from before the foundation of the world" (Eph.1), might also be interpreted, "before the overthrow of this Aeon" or if you will,
"before the overthrow of the god", according to that peculiar perspective among half the Christian population during the second century.
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lindyhopper
I'm sorry Dan I don't debate demons.
It's kinda my three D's. Add to that you're invisible and your name is Dan and that makes it four D's... (the number of earthly things and is very unlucky in Chinese) I just can't go any further with you without possibly infecting my keyboard and eventually me and most likely my immediate family and perhaps other inanimate objects in my home. I don't know what I would do if you infected my TV. You could infect FoxNews then and God knows what else.
I have spam-ware and spy-ware protections but I don't yet have demon-ware. Until then... ixnay on the Arcionmay uffstay. Okay, uh, ay?
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TheInvisibleDan
Lindy,
Wow! Well, I'll just gather up my minion of demon buddies and head over to Fox news.
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Watered Garden
Joyce Meyer said something this morning that kinda reminded me of this thread. It had to do with fruit of the spirit. She used a camera, took a picture of someone in the audience, and then mentioned this picture has to be developed in a dark room. Likewise, she said fruit of the spirit is developed in the dark room of our trials to ultimately become a picture of the spirit living within us.
I think I paraphrased that a bit, but it reminded me of how so many churches, including the one we now attend, teach that God is in total control over every little thing without exception. God already has picked out the next president and what he will do or not do. God selected Adolf Hitler to be Chancellor of Germany or whatever and on and on.
God gives us holy spirit when we are saved, and then how we develop it is of our free will.
I think two of the very biggest problems in churches today are that they don't recognize the difference between foreknowledge and predestination and that they completely ignore Satan's existence and blame God for everything that happens.
I do see a lot in Scripture where something awful happens to somebody, e.g., Joseph, and God is able to take that situation and make something great out of it after all. Actually the crucifixion and death of Jesus would fit that category. But Jesus Himself said in Gethsemane that he could call 10 legions of angels against the priest's men sent to arrest him. So he had free will, it would appear.
The other thing she said is that meekness is strength under control.
I liked that, too.
WG
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Raf
Developed?
Dark room?
Girl, time to come up with some new, 21st Century analogies!
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Watered Garden
You mean like "the best place for us is on the ball"?
I still use cameras that have film. But that's another story. Pentax K-1000 as a mattery fact.
WG
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kimberly
So, solly chooly, Raf, you did not get the analogy.....from darkness to life.....development.....there is nothing new under the sun.....21st century that.
WG thank you for that. Holy moly, I am sick of people blaming God for what they have chosen. God is not in control of us. We are in control of us. His Word is so explicit.....if you choose this.....if you choose that.....
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waysider
For what it's worth, I haven't really seen many people blaming God for choices they made.
I do think, however, that The Way needs to share in the blame for choices we made because many of those choices were based on false and misleading information they supplied.
(refer to "The Renewed Mind" thread for a discussion of who was in control.)
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kimberly
Waysider, when I said I am sick of people blaming God I was not referring to any posters on this site. I was posting about the many I live in the trenches of life with.
Please direct me to the Renewed Mind thread. I can't seem to find it.
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waysider
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=18367
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Spoudazo
Hi Kimberly,
This is addressed to all of your posts on this thread. I find your perspective interesting. I also think it is limited. I see that as a problem with the Church today. God is not as simplistic as we are. Our understanding of Him in relation to good and evil must not be simplistic or frivolous.
How can such a view explain the massive suffering and the pain felt by so many people in this world? Is it just ex-way and current way and a few stumbling church goers that can effect their own destiny by rightly believing? Is God that cold and immune to the suffering of those who don't see this way?
We are not naive about pain and suffering. I am sure you have had your share. To say that God does not orchestrate or ordain things runs contrary to scriptures.
Daniel 2:20 and declared:May the name of God be praised forever and ever, for wisdom and power belong to Him.21 He changes the times and seasons He removes kings and establishes kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding.
Proverbs 21:20 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will.
1Peter3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil.
If we look closely enough at scripture we see that God's hand is sovereign over even satan-life-death. Look at Job or Peter when he was sifted. Who did Satan approach for permission?
We can have confidence that God is able to use suffering for good. Not that He would ever tempt us, but will use our pain and suffering to refine and perfect us. The bible tells us to be patient during this time. I agree that God is not punitive, but the bible does tell us He chastens those He loves.
As for Him treating us no different than Christ? Jesus never sinned. He was perfect and yet God sacrificed Him for us while we were yet sinners. Here we must get into who Christ really is, I will pass on that debate.
Jesus said
John 10:18 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
I wonder what you do with a verse like this Deuteronomy 32:39 39 “ ‘See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
Jesus quoted most from Deuteronomy.
1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that. As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
It is a bit more complex than an ineffectual God who is impotent and a bystander. He is sovereign as scripture tells us He is. His hand and face are not open and obvious, we have to seek Him out.
Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
In all this Job never charged God with wrong, but knew God to be sovereign. People don't blame God Kimberly. They despise Satan and know his evil and look right past him to God and His hand and then His mercy. That is where the security lies. In the sovereign power of God to allow our trials for a time, and to use them for good.
What comfort is there in Satan's ability to freely destroy and our own ability to "believe?"
I would just say that if anyone's knowledge of God is based on what we learned in the Way, it might be time to expand our horizons. Just a hope. We don't blame God we praise Him. His ways are not our ways. His wisdom is beyond ours. That is why we have faith in Him even in our darkest times. He knows best. How can we have faith in Him when the walls come down and we think we or satan are in complete control?
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cman
Keeping God out of reach of the common person is the job of religion.
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HAPe4me
I thought that was the job of a political party.
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