Where are we?

[cman]

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Seems that the eternal things are now.

And can look at these things.

[Larry N Moore]

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Seems that the eternal things are now.

And can look at these things.

I'm not sure I understand your question but, if you're trying to say that we are eternal I would have to say the only part of us that fits that criteria is the spirit from God planted in us -- which we can't see. Our physical bodies are obviously not eternal. Yet, I don't think even spirit is necessarily eternal without God energizing it. The angels are said to be spirit and those that have fallen are slated for destruction. How can something which is eternal be destroyed?

[year2027]

God first

Beloved cman

God loves you my dear friend

yes "Where are we?" now or at least were do we think we are

our dust that seems eternal which stage of change is it in

our atoms that seems eternal which stage of change is it in

our water that seems eternal which stage of change is it in

is our inner heart of flesh about to give itself to make a new flesh kind so our spirit can changed by being born into a new realm of awakeness

we awake fleshly as dust maybe even from the same dust of Adam

that which dies gives life to another of our flesh but what about our image that can not be saw

do we see ourself still in the womb of God or have we become the greatest men of our time

for me I am still in the womb of God waiting for new birth when I break out of this fleshly seed of dust

this is just my input

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[sirguessalot]

hm, yeah...nice one cman

permit a tad rant on the question of our cosmic address...where "where" is certainly as interesting as asking "when, who, what, why, or how"

but as to "where"...

depending on one's age, stage and perhaps cultural upbringing...

some may point towards their head

some at their chest

some to their hand or pinch the flesh of their forearm

some simply point outward, upward or downward

some point way inside to the place that outwardly witnesses thought and vision and dream

some may even point to the heart of a loved one and say "i am also right here"

those subjective bounds tend to "move" quite radically from time to time

i suppose we could also ask "where is 'we'?"

or "where is my i?" ...as a variant "where am i?"

and such

we could ask..."where was our eternity?" and "where will our eternity be?"

...to which we can answer..."it was here now" and "it will be here now"

or...if a mountain is in our awareness

can our awareness then be located as far away as the mountain?

what part of us is our awareness?

and how far does it go from here?

is our awareness an it? an i? a we?

and whatever location we find, we can always ask...."ok, so where are we now....now that we've found where we are"

the answer is always already quite clear

:huh:

and more and more interesting as we near the ends of our mortal lives

these are certainly the foolish fun kinds of things those crazy ancients were asking

and though concordances and texbooks will not disclose this kind of information

they certainly point at it a lot

the holy scripture they studied was simply this

(picture me pointing at the universe...which includes my self...as well as all of our selves...and all the lexicons)

Edited November 14, 2007 by sirguessalot

[Tom Strange]

Where are we?

Do you mean 'stardate' wise or 'GPS' wise?

[cman]

Appreciate the responses, all of you.

Let me give this eternal looking that we can do now some more thought and space.

Some good food for thought here and my thoughts are in many places at once.

[YID]

????What????? Edited November 15, 2007 by YID

[cman]

I'm not sure I understand your question but, if you're trying to say that we are eternal I would have to say the only part of us that fits that criteria is the spirit from God planted in us -- which we can't see. Our physical bodies are obviously not eternal. Yet, I don't think even spirit is necessarily eternal without God energizing it. The angels are said to be spirit and those that have fallen are slated for destruction. How can something which is eternal be destroyed?

I have to disagree Larry, 'only part' of us?, I don't believe that, because we shall be changed.

Dieing and Death are changes as well as being destroyed, something else will take it's place.

All lives are eternal, it's the way we were designed.

The question is 'where are we'. Since we can look at these eternal things.

We might just get an idea of where we are as well as who.

And in what relation to where everything else is, including God.

-----------------------

Nice post Roy,

Yeah, where do we think we are and where are we really?

Could be different answers.

And the rest of your post inspires more thought as well.

Edited November 15, 2007 by cman

[cman]

-------------------------

Lot's of directions to 'look' with your words Todd.

or...if a mountain is in our awareness

can our awareness then be located as far away as the mountain?

could this also be said of gazing at a star

if we are aware of it can we be there as well?

or a place in our mind's eye, that is shown to us...

are we in it's shadow or really there

so we can think on eternal things

they have to be real if we can think on them

[cman]

I didn't forget about you Tom. :)

Since we can look at or in or from within things eternal.

Where are we looking from?

[Larry N Moore]

I have to disagree Larry, 'only part' of us?, I don't believe that, because we shall be changed.

Dieing and Death are changes as well as being destroyed, something else will take it's place.

All lives are eternal, it's the way we were designed.

I can agree that we all change -- I think the Bible says something about returning to dust. So that's a change. I can't agree that dust is eternal, otherwise it would never change from one thing to another. And I can't say that no matter what form it's in that it will always exist. I don't have that kind of knowledge.

[cman]

dust to sand to stars.......

something ole Abraham was conversing about......

[Ham]

"where are we".. hmm.

People talk about being lost.. and I've had that question on a few road trips, "are you lost?"

"no, I know exactly where *I* am.."

whatever happens, when I go through the vortex again, I'll be somewhere.. hopefully know where I'm at..

I think we're in a trap.. stuck in this little shell of "self". I think a lot of us have been trapped, one lifetime after another.

[Ham]

I dunno.. some people think that "we" are God on a vacation.. no responsibilities, or at least fewer..

With ages of heavenly "perfection".. some people think that we desperately wanted this stinking existence..

and yet, we can't have exactly what we want..

the "simple life"..

maybe this is the closest to it that anyone can have..

[cman]

It has to be simple I think Mr H.

Or the pureness gets clouded I believe.

Rev 22:1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

I'm not much of one to go into deep detailing the meanings of words.

But to get the idea, which is the point of the words.

Edited November 16, 2007 by cman

[cman]

With ages of heavenly "perfection".. some people think that we desperately wanted this stinking existence..

I can understand that Mr H., if all we had was this that this life has to offer, it does stink.

Might as well die as in not ever being around forever-I'd wish for it.

But there is more, lots more now and more as we see more each day.

And after the 'change' it's more then words can express,

which is why Revelations is so hard for some to see.

Some things are just beyond language.

[sirguessalot]

I dunno.. some people think that "we" are God on a vacation.. no responsibilities, or at least fewer..

this reminds me of a few things, Mr. H...

of course, this is just my opinion and current understanding..."what i've gathered"...but to avoid all the "as it seems" and "IMHOs," i'll just state it "as if it is"

"Ascending" spirituality is the basic masculine erotic love drive to seek to enter perfection, evolution, peace, oneness, unity, etc.... There is a "spectrum" of eros (the base sexual connotation is only one of many layers). The entire period of human history from roughly Abraham to Jesus was marked by this very natural and valid wave of human discovery, where the hermits and sages sought to discover the nature of God and experience. So, like John the baptist, they were meditators who lived in seclusion, practicing silence, stillness, starvation, etc... Trying to codify what guys like Abraham discovered (i.e. "this" side of the face of God). Budda is perhaps the most well-known pioneer and codifier of this kind of "narrow path to heaven," offering very clear "pointing out instructions" and practices. But also...Jesus's extreme wilderness jaunt, frequent mountain climbing excursions, and admonitions as to how priests lifestyles had gone far from the "works" of Abraham (i.e. actual spiritual practices that reveal "the kingdom of heaven") ... are all clear gospel examples of ascending.

And what you wrote reminds me of a common type of pathology sometimes called "stone buddha" syndrome, where one is so absorbed into the bliss of formless awareness, that they are really not interested in "coming back down from heaven," so they sit there in genuine awe of the "divine self"....basically stuck in "nirvana"...and pure state of Witness...the "eye of God"... "spiritual IN-sight"...yada yada

Like the admonitions to "Lucifer," where this archetype is warned against seeking ONLY heaven, for all the trouble it causes. Cuz while this ascending path is obviously a very important one (perfection, peace, God, etc...), but if it is the only way that is sought, it leads to one being so detached as to be "God on vacation," where everything below perfection is considered dirty, ugly, painful and to be avoided as inferior. suddenly, the "ultimate, everpresent nature of Spirit" is not so ultimate and everpresent, but perceived to be limited to the higher altitudes.

One does not have to be a spiritual seeker or meditator to get "stuck in heaven," either. Many brilliant conventional thinkers are stuck like this, and so they are not willing to feel what they see so well. Cold, detached masterminds in the fields of politics, business, etc.... Stuck in the delusions that come with the higher mind.

And its not just that one gets stuck at the very highest states of awareness...but that one is merely stuck in an "ascending-only" mode. Our culture is soaking wet with this "victory-only" mindset...but NOT while at the pure states of the masters of old...more like second graders who think they are at the top of the ladder, simply for focusing only on the limits of 1st graders on the rung below....satisfied with "not being down there."

of course...the antidote to this one-way spiritual erotic love drive and seeking only bliss is AGAPE...the descending feminine motherly spirituality. Actually seeking to taste, touch and feel hell and suffering. Not an entering INTO heaven..but a motherly embracing all the nitty gritty details of earth and form "below."

And likewise...only-descending is obviously quite a downer. Like being in a permanant state of mourning and loss.

Buddha and Jesus, while firmly established in the ascension, both pointed out the importance of the descending love. Jesus's "Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves" expressed the importance of this continuum of eros and agape. Also, "the Bodhisattva vow" in buddhism expresses it by one's vowing to "forgoe one's own entering into Nirvana in order to help all sentient beings."

And so its not for the sake of one's own wholeness, but for the sake of all others. If one has access to detached bliss...one is useless (and worse) if one cant ALSO come back down and embody (in-body) spirit in form. Which is expressed in terms of service and devotion to the earth and all those in it.

...Seeking to fully experience the nature and cause of suffering while simultaeneously seeking to help become free from suffering

....heaven simply gets higher...and hell simply gets deeper

but either way...it can be said that "God prefers neither...as the Spirit both Witnesses and Loves equally and fully in both"

....

oh yeah...while descending spirituality comes AFTER ascension...it is actually the 2ND time we descended.

that path of ascension is NOT the first journey...just the first journey we make while "waking up-ward" ...which is really a journey "back home"

Cuz we originally descended from formlessness ("heaven") to form (earth), which resulted in everything that led up to our conception and birth (mineral to vegetable to animal, etc.... )

the first descension is more of a natural and unavoidable "fall" and "sleepwalk" ...while the second is more of a conscious intentional choice to "fall"

...

yep...the kinda stuff that puts people into a deep sleep...and can take all night to clarify...even causing some to doze off and fall from the rafters

Edited November 17, 2007 by sirguessalot

[Ham]

I have learned something from mathematicians..

they are willing to gamble the whole game..

:)

"coming back down from heaven," so they sit there in genuine awe of the "divine self"....basically stuck in "nirvana"...and pure state of Witness...the "eye of God"... "spiritual IN-sight"...yada yada

that's why I love Kesey.. he echoed so many of the same thoughts.

How many times does a person really have to "go through the door.."

[Ham]

If it makes any difference.. I think we came into this existence.. with the possibility of "failure". yeah.. the possibility that if we toss the dice, that we lose.. even "eternally".

"God" can't lose..

It's a gift.. that he does not have..

[sirguessalot]

hehe...yeah...an altered state is an altered state, whether it is from decades of meditation...or a potent microdot

reminds me of this..the message of highest angel on the "totem pole" of Christ...bolds are mine, to show how it hums with what i wrote above

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

i like how it seems to point to how the final lesson is also another kind of first lesson ... like how after 9 months of gestation, one may think the trip is over...and we have some big reason to brag

and notice the "cold or hot"...reminds me of heaven (cold clear high altitude) and hell (dark hot underworld)

like its a reminder NOT to stay put..but time to keep moving

like " i wish you were ascending and descending..."

Edited November 17, 2007 by sirguessalot

[Ham]

I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;

Well.. I think the day of the microdot may be past..

sometimes I wish I could revisit those days.. but I can look into the light anytime I wish.

But.. "I am rich, I have need of nothing"

maybe for Christmas

but we need each other..

people are starved, and they don't have a clue why sometimes...

[cman]

Thanks Sirguess, I needed that.

Mr H., yes we need each other.

Would that be one of those invisible eternal things?

Seems it is to me.

Perhaps that's why it's not recognized.

And people don't know why they are starving.

[cman]

Well, I think having each other is an eternal reality.

As well as all that was, is and will be, now.

Sort of a reincarnation thing that always is now.

[Patrick and Sarah]

There are two parts of us that are not "seen"

Spirit and soul.

Body is our house for the Spiritual Beings that we are.

The house can be destroyed by the unseen will go on forever.

If you believe in duality then this can be bad........heaven/hell oh no!!!

If you believe that God is all good and that God is all wise that the house is NOT devided against itself then if we live forever there will always be a good place and future in our eternity.

I prefer to think that in the end............all will be good as now.

The eternal is now. God is in the now. Heaven is now. Hell is now.........these are of our own making. We creat our heaven in our own renewed mind and we creat our own hell in our own unrenewed mind. It is a cause and effect world. What we think about is cause and the manifestation is the effect. This is why Paul said "For to be carnally minded is death, but to Spiritually minded is Life and Peace." It is our Choice.

Great topic Cman.

Patrick