P&W includes optional testimony/sharing faith story and possible altar call/issuing an invitation to salvation and discipleship. Often powerpoint is used with lyrics from Christian Music DVD's(Integrity's Worship Together, Maranatha, WOW Worship. John Tesh, Songs 4 Worship, etc.). Sometimes drama/skits are utilized. Both this option and definitely Seeker do not use Confession of Sins nor offering(tithe/abundant sharing). Apostles Creed or other 20th Cent. statements of faith may be used. Lord's prayer is not and usually no benediction/blessing. Seeker is non-congregational, more audience of spectators and observers, little or no participation. Liturgical preaching is exegetical while the other 2 structures/formats are didatic/expostion/explanation oriented. Communion is limited to baptised(water or spirit) Christian believers and life-long disciples and usually closed off to non Christians. Traditional is European based with pipe organ, recorders, brass, string orchestra, handbells, vested/robed choirs and clergy, candles, visual art, etc. Praise is jazz/rock/pop/folk music with guitars, percussion, synthesizers, maybe saxophones, etc. 2nd and 3rd options are due to MTV/VH-1.
God wants us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. If speaking in tongues bypasses the mind, then it couldn't be the ONLY way to worship God, eve if it were perfect prayer.
Chose to broaden the topic beyond SIT. Many like Paul Westermeyer, Luther Reed, Evelyn Underhill, Geoffery Wainwright, Frank Senn, Carl Halter, Phillip Pffateicher, Byron Stuhlman, Marion Hattchett, Lionell Mitchell, etc. wrote books on this subject. But the most interesting was by James F. White "Introduction to Christian Worship". Discussions include music, visual arts/architecture, liturgy/ritual, especially on Holy Communion, Baptism, Lent/Holy Week, Daily Prayer(Matins/Lauds, Prime/Midday, Vespers/Evening, Compline), ordination, weddings, burial of the dead, healing, lessons and carols, Stations of the Cross, Tenebrae, Lovefeast, Divine Praises, Preaching Services of the Word. Now whether you agree or not with the conclusions, I leave it up to you. Also the topic of hymnody as witnessed on Cynic's forum in the Reading Room(which most of you failed to participate).
Since, as Mark reminded us, we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength then everything we do potentially is worship. You really cannot have one of those without all the others [if you have a whole living being] so all of them together in an individual pretty much describes or defines that person [since we're all different].
So - theoretically, every time we act out of love, it's a kind of worship. The sum and substance of what we are, how we do our jobs, how we treat each other and even how we behave in a dark movie theater or a subway could be an act of worship.
Now that I read that over, it sounds like gibberish, or maybe like it came from the mind of a 2 year old! I'm sure some of you may think that's what it is!
Provided you say the gist of it, but from your heart, rather than just reciting words. It's ironic that just before Jesus says "pray this way" he said, "do not use vain repetition as the Gentiles do" and yet so many people just repeat the Lord's Prayer without thinking about or even knowing what it means.
Since, as Mark reminded us, we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength then everything we do potentially is worship. You really cannot have one of those without all the others [if you have a whole living being] so all of them together in an individual pretty much describes or defines that person [since we're all different].
So - theoretically, every time we act out of love, it's a kind of worship. The sum and substance of what we are, how we do our jobs, how we treat each other and even how we behave in a dark movie theater or a subway could be an act of worship.
Now that I read that over, it sounds like gibberish, or maybe like it came from the mind of a 2 year old! I'm sure some of you may think that's what it is!
That is not gibberish, that is a perfect explanation of worship. It means to make obeisance, do reverence. What we do in our lives in obedience and love for Him is worship.
Worship means to bow down in reverence. . . we also worship in the presence of the Lord. His beauty and holiness. . . the powerful and holy presence of God. It brings you to worship This is often done alone with the Lord, but you can certainly worship with others. We were made to worship God.
Ps 95:6
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.
Ps 96:9
O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
Most churches have praise and praise music. It is sometimes called worship, but praise is with song, music and joy. We can sing our praise to the Lord. It is applaud or magnify.
TWI taught practicing the presence of God. "Be still and know that I am God." It is not the same as praise and not really worship either. . . . not sure what it was.
Side note: Scholars now say the Lord's Prayer was universally accepted by 100 AD/CE not only as a model prayer, but the only real true prayer to be permanetly repeated and recited by all Christian believers. In fact some say as early as 60 AD it became a required part of both public/corporate worship and private devotions. Rabbis taught formula prayers to their students to be memorized. Whether Jesus wanted this or not, it became a fact and liturgical statistic. Whether it should have been or not is another question.
Cman posted a link. Nice verses. If you replace "in spirit" with "in heart" it kinda makes the gist of what worship is more clear.
We are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. (Sorry, which of these words says "spirit")?
If we keep God first, our whole life can be one of worship. All our actions. Actions done in love, for God, and showing respect to fellow human beings. It's not just SIT, whether that is done out loud or silently. We love, because He first loved us. Love doesn't need words; sometimes actions say more than words.
This discussion reminds me very much of this passage:
Okay, this is about fasting, but the bigger picture is doing something with heart, and not just going through the motions. You and God know whether your speaking in tongues is genuine worship or just a clanging cymbal.
Jesus worshipped God. Um, where is the record that he spoke in tongues??
Twinky, TWI and its splinter groups, along with United Pentecostal Holiness, Assemblies of God, and some Churches of God, Vineyard Ministries, etc would all say no tongues until Day of Pentecost. Therefore Jesus, John the Baptist, Mary, Old Testament Prophets/Patriarchs/Levitical priests did not speak in tongues or glossalia because that spiritual gift/manifestation was not available and in the near future will be stripped because of the Rapture/Gathering Together. Whether this is a true record is highly debatable.
I know what they teach, but is it true? I neither know nor care.
Better to concentrate on lining my heart up with what God wants as best I understand it. He looks on my heart and sees what's in there. It's either acceptable or it's not, and speaking in tongues won't make it any more so or less.
If one doesn't SIT will God love that person less? No. If one doesn't SIT does it mean that person doesn't love God? No.
If one SITs a lot, will God love that person more? No. If one does SIT does it mean that person does love God? No.
Gossolalia was being practiced long before Pentecost and is not exclusive to Christianity.
*******************************************
Learned behavior
The material explanation arrived at by a number of studies is that glossolalia is "learned behavior".[17][18] What is taught is the ability to produce language-like speech. This is only a partial explanation, but it is a part that has withstood much testing. It is possible to train novices to produce glossolalic speech. One experiment with 60 undergraduates found that 20% succeeded after merely listening to a 60-second sample, and 70% succeeded after training:
Our findings that glossolalia can be easily learned through direct instruction, along with demonstrations that tongue speakers can initiate and terminate glossolalia upon request and can exhibit glossolalia in the absence of any indexes of trance[...]support the hypothesis that glossolalia utterances are goal-directed actions rather than involuntary happenings.[19]
That glossolalia can be learned is also seen in the traces left behind by teachers. An investigation by the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn showed that the influence of a particular leader can shape a group's glossolalia: where certain prominent glossolalists had visited, whole groups of glossolalists would speak in his style of speech.[20]
However, certain sounds have been found to predominate throughout the world, irrespective of teachers. The word ‘shunda’ and its variations ‘shunder’, ‘shonder’ and ‘shindir’ are prominent in samples through the United States, Wales and New Zealand.[21]
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leafytwiglet
Hmmm worship that is a tough question
I think it is not only prayer but time with other believers and time studying the bible.
Worship is also the times that you stop to recognize God even when you are alone.
IT kind of encompasses a lot of things for me.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
P&W includes optional testimony/sharing faith story and possible altar call/issuing an invitation to salvation and discipleship. Often powerpoint is used with lyrics from Christian Music DVD's(Integrity's Worship Together, Maranatha, WOW Worship. John Tesh, Songs 4 Worship, etc.). Sometimes drama/skits are utilized. Both this option and definitely Seeker do not use Confession of Sins nor offering(tithe/abundant sharing). Apostles Creed or other 20th Cent. statements of faith may be used. Lord's prayer is not and usually no benediction/blessing. Seeker is non-congregational, more audience of spectators and observers, little or no participation. Liturgical preaching is exegetical while the other 2 structures/formats are didatic/expostion/explanation oriented. Communion is limited to baptised(water or spirit) Christian believers and life-long disciples and usually closed off to non Christians. Traditional is European based with pipe organ, recorders, brass, string orchestra, handbells, vested/robed choirs and clergy, candles, visual art, etc. Praise is jazz/rock/pop/folk music with guitars, percussion, synthesizers, maybe saxophones, etc. 2nd and 3rd options are due to MTV/VH-1.
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cheranne
True form of worship (to me) is hearing the little birds singing in the spring!
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Mark Clarke
God wants us to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. If speaking in tongues bypasses the mind, then it couldn't be the ONLY way to worship God, eve if it were perfect prayer.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Chose to broaden the topic beyond SIT. Many like Paul Westermeyer, Luther Reed, Evelyn Underhill, Geoffery Wainwright, Frank Senn, Carl Halter, Phillip Pffateicher, Byron Stuhlman, Marion Hattchett, Lionell Mitchell, etc. wrote books on this subject. But the most interesting was by James F. White "Introduction to Christian Worship". Discussions include music, visual arts/architecture, liturgy/ritual, especially on Holy Communion, Baptism, Lent/Holy Week, Daily Prayer(Matins/Lauds, Prime/Midday, Vespers/Evening, Compline), ordination, weddings, burial of the dead, healing, lessons and carols, Stations of the Cross, Tenebrae, Lovefeast, Divine Praises, Preaching Services of the Word. Now whether you agree or not with the conclusions, I leave it up to you. Also the topic of hymnody as witnessed on Cynic's forum in the Reading Room(which most of you failed to participate).
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krys
Since, as Mark reminded us, we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength then everything we do potentially is worship. You really cannot have one of those without all the others [if you have a whole living being] so all of them together in an individual pretty much describes or defines that person [since we're all different].
So - theoretically, every time we act out of love, it's a kind of worship. The sum and substance of what we are, how we do our jobs, how we treat each other and even how we behave in a dark movie theater or a subway could be an act of worship.
Now that I read that over, it sounds like gibberish, or maybe like it came from the mind of a 2 year old! I'm sure some of you may think that's what it is!
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coolchef
sit=bunk
say the our father
isn't that what jc suggested?
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Mark Clarke
Provided you say the gist of it, but from your heart, rather than just reciting words. It's ironic that just before Jesus says "pray this way" he said, "do not use vain repetition as the Gentiles do" and yet so many people just repeat the Lord's Prayer without thinking about or even knowing what it means.
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geisha779
That is not gibberish, that is a perfect explanation of worship. It means to make obeisance, do reverence. What we do in our lives in obedience and love for Him is worship.
Worship means to bow down in reverence. . . we also worship in the presence of the Lord. His beauty and holiness. . . the powerful and holy presence of God. It brings you to worship This is often done alone with the Lord, but you can certainly worship with others. We were made to worship God.
Ps 95:6
O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.
Ps 96:9
O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.
Most churches have praise and praise music. It is sometimes called worship, but praise is with song, music and joy. We can sing our praise to the Lord. It is applaud or magnify.
TWI taught practicing the presence of God. "Be still and know that I am God." It is not the same as praise and not really worship either. . . . not sure what it was.
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Ham
what's "interesting".. suppose we show the lord we love him with all our intellect.. often he shows us there is more..
the intellect does not mind so much..
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Side note: Scholars now say the Lord's Prayer was universally accepted by 100 AD/CE not only as a model prayer, but the only real true prayer to be permanetly repeated and recited by all Christian believers. In fact some say as early as 60 AD it became a required part of both public/corporate worship and private devotions. Rabbis taught formula prayers to their students to be memorized. Whether Jesus wanted this or not, it became a fact and liturgical statistic. Whether it should have been or not is another question.
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Twinky
Cman posted a link. Nice verses. If you replace "in spirit" with "in heart" it kinda makes the gist of what worship is more clear.
We are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. (Sorry, which of these words says "spirit")?
If we keep God first, our whole life can be one of worship. All our actions. Actions done in love, for God, and showing respect to fellow human beings. It's not just SIT, whether that is done out loud or silently. We love, because He first loved us. Love doesn't need words; sometimes actions say more than words.
This discussion reminds me very much of this passage:
http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/OnlineStud...amp;showtools=0
Okay, this is about fasting, but the bigger picture is doing something with heart, and not just going through the motions. You and God know whether your speaking in tongues is genuine worship or just a clanging cymbal.
Jesus worshipped God. Um, where is the record that he spoke in tongues??
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Twinky, TWI and its splinter groups, along with United Pentecostal Holiness, Assemblies of God, and some Churches of God, Vineyard Ministries, etc would all say no tongues until Day of Pentecost. Therefore Jesus, John the Baptist, Mary, Old Testament Prophets/Patriarchs/Levitical priests did not speak in tongues or glossalia because that spiritual gift/manifestation was not available and in the near future will be stripped because of the Rapture/Gathering Together. Whether this is a true record is highly debatable.
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Twinky
I know what they teach, but is it true? I neither know nor care.
Better to concentrate on lining my heart up with what God wants as best I understand it. He looks on my heart and sees what's in there. It's either acceptable or it's not, and speaking in tongues won't make it any more so or less.
If one doesn't SIT will God love that person less? No. If one doesn't SIT does it mean that person doesn't love God? No.
If one SITs a lot, will God love that person more? No. If one does SIT does it mean that person does love God? No.
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waysider
Gossolalia was being practiced long before Pentecost and is not exclusive to Christianity.
*******************************************
Learned behavior
The material explanation arrived at by a number of studies is that glossolalia is "learned behavior".[17][18] What is taught is the ability to produce language-like speech. This is only a partial explanation, but it is a part that has withstood much testing. It is possible to train novices to produce glossolalic speech. One experiment with 60 undergraduates found that 20% succeeded after merely listening to a 60-second sample, and 70% succeeded after training:
Our findings that glossolalia can be easily learned through direct instruction, along with demonstrations that tongue speakers can initiate and terminate glossolalia upon request and can exhibit glossolalia in the absence of any indexes of trance[...]support the hypothesis that glossolalia utterances are goal-directed actions rather than involuntary happenings.[19]
That glossolalia can be learned is also seen in the traces left behind by teachers. An investigation by the Lutheran Medical Center in Brooklyn showed that the influence of a particular leader can shape a group's glossolalia: where certain prominent glossolalists had visited, whole groups of glossolalists would speak in his style of speech.[20]
However, certain sounds have been found to predominate throughout the world, irrespective of teachers. The word ‘shunda’ and its variations ‘shunder’, ‘shonder’ and ‘shindir’ are prominent in samples through the United States, Wales and New Zealand.[21]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
HERE is another interesting article.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
In addition to this thread, check out the others on hymnody(Reading Room) and Way Productions/Musicians to see what I and the others had to say.
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