quote: You equating David's adultery with VP's drugging and raping betrays your obvious bias.
There is no evidence that Bathesheba resisted David. There is no scripture that states that David drugged Bathesheba. Just HOW do you get drugging and rape out of that. [bTW RAPE was a big deal in the old testament - remember Dinah? (Gen 34) - her brothers cut the perpetrator's member (AKA -d1ck) off, IIRC.]
I could be wrong here - but I was taught that Shechem raped her then found he was in love with her.
There is the record of Tamar being raped by Absolom. (2 Sam 13) Once again, the rapist was killed. I'm not advocating murder here - but it does go to show that rape is not to be taken lightly.
More double standard. There once was an article GSers could read called 'Why it's not an affair'. It made the point that if a man with prominent authority hit on a woman, then that woman could not possibly give meaningful consent, therefore, it is rape. I don't necessarily agree with all that, but David had more authority than any minister today. How could Bathsheba say no to him? I said nothing about drugging; I said that IF VP raped anybody, then so did David. If today's definition of rape was in place when David was king, then he raped Bathsheba and that's just the one that's in scripture. He was king for 40 years; he had 19 kids by almost that many wives. Ya think he never did anybody else like he did Bathsheba? Ya think he never felt entitled?
Yet, God doesn't appear to be majorly concerned with this. 1 Kings 15:3-5 - talking about king Abijam - and he walked in the sins of his father which he had done before him and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God as the heart of David his father nevertheless for david's sake did the Lord his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem to set up his son after him and to establish Jerusalem because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
As for your claim that rape is a big deal.....Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, didn't cut their dicks off, they just killed them all, but Jacob had to relocate as a result of their actions and in Gen. 49 when Jacob is talking to all his sons on his death bed, he calls those 2 sons instruments of cruelty and curses their wrath. Absalom killed Amnon who raped his sister, but he himself was killed not much later. well, it DOES say somewhere that David was glad when he found out Amnon was dead.
In VPs case, as in David's, it IS possible for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, yet have their heart acceptible before God.
quote: You equating David's adultery with VP's drugging and raping betrays your obvious bias.
There is no evidence that Bathesheba resisted David. There is no scripture that states that David drugged Bathesheba. Just HOW do you get drugging and rape out of that. [bTW RAPE was a big deal in the old testament - remember Dinah? (Gen 34) - her brothers cut the perpetrator's member (AKA -d1ck) off, IIRC.]
I could be wrong here - but I was taught that Shechem raped her then found he was in love with her.
There is the record of Tamar being raped by Absolom. (2 Sam 13) Once again, the rapist was killed. I'm not advocating murder here - but it does go to show that rape is not to be taken lightly.
More double standard. There once was an article GSers could read called 'Why it's not an affair'. It made the point that if a man with prominent authority hit on a woman, then that woman could not possibly give meaningful consent, therefore, it is rape. I don't necessarily agree with all that, but David had more authority than any minister today. How could Bathsheba say no to him? I said nothing about drugging; I said that IF VP raped anybody, then so did David. If today's definition of rape was in place when David was king, then he raped Bathsheba and that's just the one that's in scripture. He was king for 40 years; he had 19 kids by almost that many wives. Ya think he never did anybody else like he did Bathsheba? Ya think he never felt entitled?
Yet, God doesn't appear to be majorly concerned with this. 1 Kings 15:3-5 - talking about king Abijam - and he walked in the sins of his father which he had done before him and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God as the heart of David his father nevertheless for david's sake did the Lord his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem to set up his son after him and to establish Jerusalem because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
As for your claim that rape is a big deal.....Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, didn't cut their dicks off, they just killed them all, but Jacob had to relocate as a result of their actions and in Gen. 49 when Jacob is talking to all his sons on his death bed, he calls those 2 sons instruments of cruelty and curses their wrath. Absalom killed Amnon who raped his sister, but he himself was killed not much later. well, it DOES say somewhere that David was glad when he found out Amnon was dead.
In VPs case, as in David's, it IS possible for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, yet have their heart acceptible before God.
I stand corrected on Jacob's sons... that was a quick point made mostly from memory.
Regarding the following:
More double standard. There once was an article GSers could read called 'Why it's not an affair'. It made the point that if a man with prominent authority hit on a woman, then that woman could not possibly give meaningful consent, therefore, it is rape. I don't necessarily agree with all that, but David had more authority than any minister today. How could Bathsheba say no to him? I said nothing about drugging; I said that IF VP raped anybody, then so did David. If today's definition of rape was in place when David was king, then he raped Bathsheba and that's just the one that's in scripture. He was king for 40 years; he had 19 kids by almost that many wives. Ya think he never did anybody else like he did
Bathsheba? Ya think he never felt entitled?
I'm not referring to the concept of rape as an abstract construct. I'm also aware that this logic gets used to define sexual harassment. I never implied a double standard. I'm no expert on logic- but I'd call that a strawman argument.
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1]To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]
Let's make this simple. If a man wants to have sex with a woman but he has to drug her in order to do so...THAT IS RAPE. (Ask any cop...It's why it's called "date-rape.")
You keep taking drugging women out of the scenario. I'm curious as to why.
In VPs case, as in David's, it IS possible for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, yet have their heart acceptible before God.
I don't see how you can equate vp and David. There are many points in which they are dissimiliar enough as to negate any real analogy.
You're assuming of course, that vp also fit into the category of being "after God's own heart." I'd call this another strawman... but I'll let you defend that theory in another thread.
In VPs case, as in David's, it IS possible for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, yet have their heart acceptible before God.
so you're saying..
1. It is POSSIBLE for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, AND have their heart accepible before gawd..
2. vic had a sexual desire to the end that others are hurt (i.e. assaulted, damaged)
3. THEREFORE (yet), vic had a heart acceptible before gawd.
sounds like Crowleyism..
at least Crowley was honest.. he boasted that he was the "wickedest man alive"..
quote: 3. THEREFORE (yet), vic had a heart acceptible before gawd.
Take a remedial English course. The words 'therefore' and 'yet' aren't synonymous. They're both conjunctions, but yet means nevertheless and therefore means consequently. I used the word 'yet', not 'therefore'.
Talk about misrepresenting your opponent's position.
"it is possible to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt(i.e. carefully chosen victims forcibly raped, damaged, reputations trashed to cover, divorces and suicides engendered, etc. etc..)
AND
have a heart acceptible with God"
personally.. if you compare vic to David, and you are indeed correct.. the comparison goes both ways. I am beginning to think that if David was guilty of these kind of crimes.. and it was his lifestyle
quote: carefully chosen victims forcibly raped, damaged, reputations trashed to cover, divorces and suicides engendered,
Forcibly???? Where did you get that info?
quote: I am beginning to think that if David was guilty of these kind of crimes.. and it was his lifestyle
he had a pretty black heart.
Acts 13:22 - and when he (God) had removed him (Saul) he raised up unto them David to be their king to whom also he gave testimony and said I have found David the son of Jesse a man after mine own heart which shall fulfill all my will.
So you think God had a black heart, too? David literally murdered to cover up his adultery/rape of Bathsheba. Lifestyle? Like Mel Brooks said, "It's good to be the king." BTW the last 6 words of that verse are why David was a man after God's heart. Jesus did that, too. So God will 'wink at' adultery, rape, murder, if the right dude fulfills his will? Sounds to me like y'alls problem is with God, not with VP.
If God winks at what vpw did (which I don`t believe) then damned STRAIGHT I`d have a problem with him.
Smatter of fact..I have a real problem with YOU laying the drugging and raping of young women as being winked at by God....
These girls were as precious as anybody else in the sight of God...the bastard who raped em doesn`t get a pass because he proclaimed himself a teacher....grrr that is quite the charge to lay at HIS feet.
Acts 13:22 - and when he (God) had removed him (Saul) he raised up unto them David to be their king to whom also he gave testimony and said I have found David the son of Jesse a man after mine own heart which shall fulfill all my will.
Acts 13:22 - and when he (God) had removed him (Saul) he raised up unto them David to be their king to whom also he gave testimony and said I have found David the son of Jesse a man after mine own heart which shall fulfill all my will.
This refers to when David was called - as a boy.
Also - scripture says that David fulfilled all God's will. It does not say that David NEVER went outside the will of God. It does say that, at times, God was displeased with David's behaviour.
So you think God had a black heart, too? David literally murdered to cover up his adultery/rape of Bathsheba. Lifestyle? Like Mel Brooks said, "It's good to be the king." BTW the last 6 words of that verse are why David was a man after God's heart. Jesus did that, too. So God will 'wink at' adultery, rape, murder, if the right dude fulfills his will? Sounds to me like y'alls problem is with God, not with VP.
Yikes! He wouldn't be a decent heavenly father if he condoned that sort of thing. If God were like that - who would need Satan?
John---"No sir, your Honor, I didn't force her. I gave her a date rape drug so she couldn't put up any resistance. That way I didn't have to use any "force". See why that makes it ok, your Honor?"
If God winks at what vpw did (which I don`t believe) then damned STRAIGHT I`d have a problem with him.
Smatter of fact..I have a real problem with YOU laying the drugging and raping of young women as being winked at by God....
These girls were as precious as anybody else in the sight of God...the bastard who raped em doesn`t get a pass because he proclaimed himself a teacher....grrr that is quite the charge to lay at HIS feet.
Grr? That sounds really passionate. Got a couple of scriptures for you.
Eccl 5:8 - If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of justice in a province, marvel not at the matter; for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
Rev. 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.
If you are as 'of the spirit' as you claim, then you should believe that. God's words, not mine. Even Excie once posted that she would not have a problem with VP having eternal life. Well, there WAS one stipulation about that; her dad had to get it also. If her dad didn't make it no way does VP get it. But the verse in Revelation says ALL tears. I think it's all without exception.
Do you ever think about how blessed you are to live in the USA? You, like most others here, have access to education, a husband, a career, hobbies, religion, etc. There are children born in other countries who don't have a chance at those things. Just how much does the perceived suffering of the young women you refer to stack up against the outright horror that millions of third world children are born into? What about women in India who could be literally burned at the perverse whim of their husbands who get sick of them? What about the millions of children who get cancer and die before they're 10? Doesn't that stuff ever cross your mind?
Yes, I think God 'winks at" a lot of stuff that happens in this world. He says he shall wipe away all tears from your eyes in the future. Are you going to wink at that?
You know, years ago, I got a job at a pet store that opened in our mall. I was passionate about working there. I loved the animals. I loved matching them up with the right families, I loved selling all of the acutriments that would keep their pet healthy and happy. They kept track of what we sold, and with no effort what so ever, I was always near the top in the nation in sales. I never thought about it, I just believed in what I was doing.
Well the franchise was sold and of course now it was necessary to make money sell sell....it didn`t matter if the family was financially able to care for the animal or that the children were too young for a tiny puppy...or a puppy that would be enormous in 6 months and knocking them down....we were given a two page canned sales sheet with a script that we were required to memorize that would make it litterally impossible to walk out of that store without a 500 dollar puppy and 300 dollars worth of supplies.
I hated it, I felt dirty, sneaky, I had an agenda and every person who walked in the store was a mark to be deprived of their money. My sales plummeted, and I don`t think that I lasted out the month.
That is how it was with pfal. I took it, I was enthusiastic about telling people about this wonderfull bunch of christians, how big God was...I brought all of my friends to twig, I went wow because I loved God and wanted to share him with others....
There wasn`t many twigs or classes I hadn`t dragged someone to with my enthusiasm.
It wasn`t too long before I was required to *sell* pfal as an example of my spirituality. There were high pressure motivational techniques to be employed, canned speeches for door to door witnessing, people were to be abandoned if they didn`t buy what we had to sell. Everybody once again became a *mark* someone to talk into the class....
Again, I hated it, I felt dirty, I felt sneaky...I couldn`t just love people any more, everything was geared to sell pfal.
It was just awfull, and again I began to fail. I remember vividly when I finally was allowed to go to my first app corpes meeting for the state...finally, I was going to be part of the spiritual elite, I was going to learn how to do great things for God.....I drove 2 1/2 hours keyed to the absolute maximum in excitement...ONLY to arrive, be divided into pairs and dropped off in the city of Birmingham for door to door witnessing.
THAT was it...as I mused it over in black gloom on the return trip....I saw it...my life unfolding before me was going to be nothing other than a life time of high pressured sales....that I would never again be allowed to be a normal person, that as with the pet store my superb track record mean t nothing, that every month would start all over again with ever higher pressure to preform that which I loathed :(
Something broke inside....where as I had been able to tell the owner of the pet store to shove it and walk out the doors to freedom, my integrity intact....I could not do it to God. I could not give him the finger and walk away....the alternative was going to be a lifetime of high pressure, phoney baloney canned sales. ALways on patrol for a new mark, shaking off anyone who didn`t want what I was selling.
I do not think that I have ever felt such bleakness before or since :(
Edited to add....In hind sight, I realize that ....even though the animals in the store seemed well cared for and something that people needed....or the bible was being taught and God shared about....I was only valuable to the pet store owners as long as I was making them lots of money. In twi, I was only valuable or spiritual if I was producing as well...in both cases there was never any actual concern for me, or the animals or the scriptures, or the customers, it was all about how much income could be generated, with products and effective sales force.
quote: Edited to add....In hind sight, I realize that ....even though the animals in the store seemed well cared for and something that people needed....or the bible was being taught and God shared about....I was only valuable to the pet store owners as long as I was making them lots of money. In twi, I was only valuable or spiritual if I was producing as well...in both cases there was never any actual concern for me, or the animals or the scriptures, or the customers, it was all about how much income could be generated, with products and effective sales force.
Yeah, but did you really ever doubt that you were valuable to God? I didn't. That's probably the biggest thing TWI ever taught me...that a nobody like me could actually be pleasing to God and still be being myself. I NEVER seriously doubted that. I've had a lot of conversations with people raised Catholic and I conclude that some of them really took it to heart when they got reamed in the confessional, but others didn't.
That's the difference between TWI and the pet store. Once the motivation to sell pets was queered, there was no reason to stay, but in TWI at least God was still accessible, even if he told you to get the h out of there. You can take love out of a group of believers, but you can't take God out.
What I wonder is.. if it was so great, why for the most part did pfal require extraordinary methods to sell it?
if it really sold itself, vic shoulda just dropped a sample on Times Square, and merely waited for the world to beat a path to his door.
Behind the scenes, in more than one "coordinator's" meetings, campaigns were scheduled.. witnessing "techniques" were finely honed.. "follow up" procedures were strictly adhered to..
classes were PLANNED. Not that I think planning was such a bad thing.. but see what happens when the branch fails to produce a couple of classes.
Not too pleasant when all who shows up to a "public explanation" are grads from long ago.
then there's a whole "leadership program".. basically designed to SELL the class, SELL the ministry. More motivation techniques, more "tricks of the trade".
no pressure there. Go lightbearers.. fail to produce a class? No problem.. just jump off a bridge on the way back to campus.
OH.. the guys who ran a lot of that kind of training, some started their own brand of der vey, didn't they..
I can understand a LITTLE pressure, if your day job demands that you sell widgets to the general public, for a fair profit..
but, to be required to SELL to merely have the "priviledge" to belong to and contribute financially to a CHURH?
Before a person says, "nobody ever demanded it of ME..", I would think that perhaps it is maybe because they didn't have to. Maybe the person just kept producing, kept bringing friends, coworkers, etc.. to the little meetings.
loy labeled people who couldn't "produce" as those harboring evil, "unproductive evil" dross.. possessed. Not "going anywhere" in "gawd's" ministry.
I couldn't sell loy's class if my life depended on it.. and I wasn't "in" very much longer past that.
"we KNOW something is wrong with you, spill your guts.." looking back now, what was wrong, I could not sell an unsellable product.
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johniam
quote: You equating David's adultery with VP's drugging and raping betrays your obvious bias.
There is no evidence that Bathesheba resisted David. There is no scripture that states that David drugged Bathesheba. Just HOW do you get drugging and rape out of that. [bTW RAPE was a big deal in the old testament - remember Dinah? (Gen 34) - her brothers cut the perpetrator's member (AKA -d1ck) off, IIRC.]
I could be wrong here - but I was taught that Shechem raped her then found he was in love with her.
There is the record of Tamar being raped by Absolom. (2 Sam 13) Once again, the rapist was killed. I'm not advocating murder here - but it does go to show that rape is not to be taken lightly.
More double standard. There once was an article GSers could read called 'Why it's not an affair'. It made the point that if a man with prominent authority hit on a woman, then that woman could not possibly give meaningful consent, therefore, it is rape. I don't necessarily agree with all that, but David had more authority than any minister today. How could Bathsheba say no to him? I said nothing about drugging; I said that IF VP raped anybody, then so did David. If today's definition of rape was in place when David was king, then he raped Bathsheba and that's just the one that's in scripture. He was king for 40 years; he had 19 kids by almost that many wives. Ya think he never did anybody else like he did Bathsheba? Ya think he never felt entitled?
Yet, God doesn't appear to be majorly concerned with this. 1 Kings 15:3-5 - talking about king Abijam - and he walked in the sins of his father which he had done before him and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God as the heart of David his father nevertheless for david's sake did the Lord his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem to set up his son after him and to establish Jerusalem because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
As for your claim that rape is a big deal.....Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, didn't cut their dicks off, they just killed them all, but Jacob had to relocate as a result of their actions and in Gen. 49 when Jacob is talking to all his sons on his death bed, he calls those 2 sons instruments of cruelty and curses their wrath. Absalom killed Amnon who raped his sister, but he himself was killed not much later. well, it DOES say somewhere that David was glad when he found out Amnon was dead.
In VPs case, as in David's, it IS possible for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, yet have their heart acceptible before God.
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doojable
I stand corrected on Jacob's sons... that was a quick point made mostly from memory.
Regarding the following:
More double standard. There once was an article GSers could read called 'Why it's not an affair'. It made the point that if a man with prominent authority hit on a woman, then that woman could not possibly give meaningful consent, therefore, it is rape. I don't necessarily agree with all that, but David had more authority than any minister today. How could Bathsheba say no to him? I said nothing about drugging; I said that IF VP raped anybody, then so did David. If today's definition of rape was in place when David was king, then he raped Bathsheba and that's just the one that's in scripture. He was king for 40 years; he had 19 kids by almost that many wives. Ya think he never did anybody else like he did
Bathsheba? Ya think he never felt entitled?
I'm not referring to the concept of rape as an abstract construct. I'm also aware that this logic gets used to define sexual harassment. I never implied a double standard. I'm no expert on logic- but I'd call that a strawman argument.
From Wikipedia
Let's make this simple. If a man wants to have sex with a woman but he has to drug her in order to do so...THAT IS RAPE. (Ask any cop...It's why it's called "date-rape.")
You keep taking drugging women out of the scenario. I'm curious as to why.
I don't see how you can equate vp and David. There are many points in which they are dissimiliar enough as to negate any real analogy.
You're assuming of course, that vp also fit into the category of being "after God's own heart." I'd call this another strawman... but I'll let you defend that theory in another thread.
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Ham
so you're saying..
1. It is POSSIBLE for someone to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt, AND have their heart accepible before gawd..
2. vic had a sexual desire to the end that others are hurt (i.e. assaulted, damaged)
3. THEREFORE (yet), vic had a heart acceptible before gawd.
sounds like Crowleyism..
at least Crowley was honest.. he boasted that he was the "wickedest man alive"..
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waysider
This thread sure has gone a long way from discussing sales tactics for PFAL to comparing VPW with actual men of God.
Seeing how twisted some of the graduates turned out, makes me regretful I ever signed up ANYBODY!
Maybe these VPW worshipers could put their heads together and start a "Why I worship VPW" thread.
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Ham
"your pen or mine.."
I dunno. A lot of this *$%& is what we signed on for..
It's called.. sign on for the abstract, and in the end get bulls*%t..
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johniam
quote: 3. THEREFORE (yet), vic had a heart acceptible before gawd.
Take a remedial English course. The words 'therefore' and 'yet' aren't synonymous. They're both conjunctions, but yet means nevertheless and therefore means consequently. I used the word 'yet', not 'therefore'.
Talk about misrepresenting your opponent's position.
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Ham
umm.. I thought I asked "are you saying.."
so what you ARE saying..
"it is possible to have sexual desire to the end that others are hurt(i.e. carefully chosen victims forcibly raped, damaged, reputations trashed to cover, divorces and suicides engendered, etc. etc..)
AND
have a heart acceptible with God"
personally.. if you compare vic to David, and you are indeed correct.. the comparison goes both ways. I am beginning to think that if David was guilty of these kind of crimes.. and it was his lifestyle
he had a pretty black heart.
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johniam
quote: carefully chosen victims forcibly raped, damaged, reputations trashed to cover, divorces and suicides engendered,
Forcibly???? Where did you get that info?
quote: I am beginning to think that if David was guilty of these kind of crimes.. and it was his lifestyle
he had a pretty black heart.
Acts 13:22 - and when he (God) had removed him (Saul) he raised up unto them David to be their king to whom also he gave testimony and said I have found David the son of Jesse a man after mine own heart which shall fulfill all my will.
So you think God had a black heart, too? David literally murdered to cover up his adultery/rape of Bathsheba. Lifestyle? Like Mel Brooks said, "It's good to be the king." BTW the last 6 words of that verse are why David was a man after God's heart. Jesus did that, too. So God will 'wink at' adultery, rape, murder, if the right dude fulfills his will? Sounds to me like y'alls problem is with God, not with VP.
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rascal
If God winks at what vpw did (which I don`t believe) then damned STRAIGHT I`d have a problem with him.
Smatter of fact..I have a real problem with YOU laying the drugging and raping of young women as being winked at by God....
These girls were as precious as anybody else in the sight of God...the bastard who raped em doesn`t get a pass because he proclaimed himself a teacher....grrr that is quite the charge to lay at HIS feet.
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Ham
If you insist on it.
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doojable
Acts 13:22 - and when he (God) had removed him (Saul) he raised up unto them David to be their king to whom also he gave testimony and said I have found David the son of Jesse a man after mine own heart which shall fulfill all my will.
This refers to when David was called - as a boy.
Also - scripture says that David fulfilled all God's will. It does not say that David NEVER went outside the will of God. It does say that, at times, God was displeased with David's behaviour.
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Nero
Yikes! He wouldn't be a decent heavenly father if he condoned that sort of thing. If God were like that - who would need Satan?
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Ham
Yep..
Any god that has to rely on a lecherous, abusive, drunk, criminal type to get his will done..
I'm really trying to see the other guy's perspective here..
What is it..
God can't find somebody any better to do the job?
hey.. just turn over any arbitrary rock.. something better has to turn up..
Or is it..
He can't find anybody who otherwise in their right mind would not do what they were "called" to do?
Or does he "throw the dice".. so to speak? and the vicster and loy win the booby prize?
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waysider
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Ham
I still don't think this is too far off the mark, as far as the thread is concerned. Isn't this what we "signed up" for?
The proceeds paid for date rape drugs, motorcycles.. motorcoach, possibly hotel rooms.. etc.. etc..
Shoulda read the fine print..
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frank123lol
Maybe,We were so desperate we grabbed on to the first one who seemed to have the ansers.
God probably did have something better,I dont know maybe we were not paient enough to wait for it?????
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Ham
good point..
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johniam
Grr? That sounds really passionate. Got a couple of scriptures for you.
Eccl 5:8 - If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of justice in a province, marvel not at the matter; for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
Rev. 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.
If you are as 'of the spirit' as you claim, then you should believe that. God's words, not mine. Even Excie once posted that she would not have a problem with VP having eternal life. Well, there WAS one stipulation about that; her dad had to get it also. If her dad didn't make it no way does VP get it. But the verse in Revelation says ALL tears. I think it's all without exception.
Do you ever think about how blessed you are to live in the USA? You, like most others here, have access to education, a husband, a career, hobbies, religion, etc. There are children born in other countries who don't have a chance at those things. Just how much does the perceived suffering of the young women you refer to stack up against the outright horror that millions of third world children are born into? What about women in India who could be literally burned at the perverse whim of their husbands who get sick of them? What about the millions of children who get cancer and die before they're 10? Doesn't that stuff ever cross your mind?
Yes, I think God 'winks at" a lot of stuff that happens in this world. He says he shall wipe away all tears from your eyes in the future. Are you going to wink at that?
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waysider
VPW was a sexual predator, a con-man, a drunkard and, as Mrs. W. said at his funeral, "He was a mean, mean man.".
If Chas. Manson had made the above statement, would that make it any less true?
Looks like you might be the one who is doing the "winking" here, John.
Stop changing the subject.
The theme of this thread is a discussion of sales techniques used to sell PLAF.
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rascal
You know, years ago, I got a job at a pet store that opened in our mall. I was passionate about working there. I loved the animals. I loved matching them up with the right families, I loved selling all of the acutriments that would keep their pet healthy and happy. They kept track of what we sold, and with no effort what so ever, I was always near the top in the nation in sales. I never thought about it, I just believed in what I was doing.
Well the franchise was sold and of course now it was necessary to make money sell sell....it didn`t matter if the family was financially able to care for the animal or that the children were too young for a tiny puppy...or a puppy that would be enormous in 6 months and knocking them down....we were given a two page canned sales sheet with a script that we were required to memorize that would make it litterally impossible to walk out of that store without a 500 dollar puppy and 300 dollars worth of supplies.
I hated it, I felt dirty, sneaky, I had an agenda and every person who walked in the store was a mark to be deprived of their money. My sales plummeted, and I don`t think that I lasted out the month.
That is how it was with pfal. I took it, I was enthusiastic about telling people about this wonderfull bunch of christians, how big God was...I brought all of my friends to twig, I went wow because I loved God and wanted to share him with others....
There wasn`t many twigs or classes I hadn`t dragged someone to with my enthusiasm.
It wasn`t too long before I was required to *sell* pfal as an example of my spirituality. There were high pressure motivational techniques to be employed, canned speeches for door to door witnessing, people were to be abandoned if they didn`t buy what we had to sell. Everybody once again became a *mark* someone to talk into the class....
Again, I hated it, I felt dirty, I felt sneaky...I couldn`t just love people any more, everything was geared to sell pfal.
It was just awfull, and again I began to fail. I remember vividly when I finally was allowed to go to my first app corpes meeting for the state...finally, I was going to be part of the spiritual elite, I was going to learn how to do great things for God.....I drove 2 1/2 hours keyed to the absolute maximum in excitement...ONLY to arrive, be divided into pairs and dropped off in the city of Birmingham for door to door witnessing.
THAT was it...as I mused it over in black gloom on the return trip....I saw it...my life unfolding before me was going to be nothing other than a life time of high pressured sales....that I would never again be allowed to be a normal person, that as with the pet store my superb track record mean t nothing, that every month would start all over again with ever higher pressure to preform that which I loathed :(
Something broke inside....where as I had been able to tell the owner of the pet store to shove it and walk out the doors to freedom, my integrity intact....I could not do it to God. I could not give him the finger and walk away....the alternative was going to be a lifetime of high pressure, phoney baloney canned sales. ALways on patrol for a new mark, shaking off anyone who didn`t want what I was selling.
I do not think that I have ever felt such bleakness before or since :(
Edited to add....In hind sight, I realize that ....even though the animals in the store seemed well cared for and something that people needed....or the bible was being taught and God shared about....I was only valuable to the pet store owners as long as I was making them lots of money. In twi, I was only valuable or spiritual if I was producing as well...in both cases there was never any actual concern for me, or the animals or the scriptures, or the customers, it was all about how much income could be generated, with products and effective sales force.
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johniam
quote: Edited to add....In hind sight, I realize that ....even though the animals in the store seemed well cared for and something that people needed....or the bible was being taught and God shared about....I was only valuable to the pet store owners as long as I was making them lots of money. In twi, I was only valuable or spiritual if I was producing as well...in both cases there was never any actual concern for me, or the animals or the scriptures, or the customers, it was all about how much income could be generated, with products and effective sales force.
Yeah, but did you really ever doubt that you were valuable to God? I didn't. That's probably the biggest thing TWI ever taught me...that a nobody like me could actually be pleasing to God and still be being myself. I NEVER seriously doubted that. I've had a lot of conversations with people raised Catholic and I conclude that some of them really took it to heart when they got reamed in the confessional, but others didn't.
That's the difference between TWI and the pet store. Once the motivation to sell pets was queered, there was no reason to stay, but in TWI at least God was still accessible, even if he told you to get the h out of there. You can take love out of a group of believers, but you can't take God out.
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Ham
What I wonder is.. if it was so great, why for the most part did pfal require extraordinary methods to sell it?
if it really sold itself, vic shoulda just dropped a sample on Times Square, and merely waited for the world to beat a path to his door.
Behind the scenes, in more than one "coordinator's" meetings, campaigns were scheduled.. witnessing "techniques" were finely honed.. "follow up" procedures were strictly adhered to..
classes were PLANNED. Not that I think planning was such a bad thing.. but see what happens when the branch fails to produce a couple of classes.
Not too pleasant when all who shows up to a "public explanation" are grads from long ago.
then there's a whole "leadership program".. basically designed to SELL the class, SELL the ministry. More motivation techniques, more "tricks of the trade".
no pressure there. Go lightbearers.. fail to produce a class? No problem.. just jump off a bridge on the way back to campus.
OH.. the guys who ran a lot of that kind of training, some started their own brand of der vey, didn't they..
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Ham
I can understand a LITTLE pressure, if your day job demands that you sell widgets to the general public, for a fair profit..
but, to be required to SELL to merely have the "priviledge" to belong to and contribute financially to a CHURH?
Before a person says, "nobody ever demanded it of ME..", I would think that perhaps it is maybe because they didn't have to. Maybe the person just kept producing, kept bringing friends, coworkers, etc.. to the little meetings.
loy labeled people who couldn't "produce" as those harboring evil, "unproductive evil" dross.. possessed. Not "going anywhere" in "gawd's" ministry.
I couldn't sell loy's class if my life depended on it.. and I wasn't "in" very much longer past that.
"we KNOW something is wrong with you, spill your guts.." looking back now, what was wrong, I could not sell an unsellable product.
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Ham
I really think they were looking for people who could sell solar powered icemakers in the heart of Antarctica..
"field support" issues are pretty easy after the sale though..
"whadly mean it doesn't work?? You have all the ice you could ever want.."
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