Glad that I took it? I don`t think so....no. I was watching a show about *gateway drugs* How pot, in and of itself seemed pretty innocuous...fun, made life and problems seem a little easier to cope with, but that in many cases, it reduced ones inhibitions to where they would end up moving on to stronger more destructive drugs.
It struck me how similar this seemed to my twi experience.
I think pfal was that way....in and of itself, it seemed fairly harmless, even helpfull. Yet, buried within it were the kernels of teachings that would later germinate into whole sale destruction. Without first taking pfal, the classes, teachings, and programs that followed allowing the mogs to such wholesale destruction wouldn`t have been tolerated.
PFAL laid the groundwork, dulled our internal alarms, by convincing us that this was a legitimate Christian minister, with a legitimate ministry. It wasn`t untill years later after one had lost their friends , family, education, careers, suffered horrific abuse that we finally come to and try to figure out where it all went so wrong.
The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
We had to start all over.
Sometimes greasespot feels like we are a bunch of recovering addicts, trying to understand, trying to make sense of it all, trying to learn so that it never happens again.
By all accounts that I've heard of him, he was a heck of a nice guy.
I'm sure he was totally convinced he was doing the right thing.
I would never want to negate the many good memories people have of him.
That is not at all the purpose of this post.
This whole witnessing and undershepherding concept was based on II Tim. 2:2.
First, look at who it's addressed to.
Well, according to the "administration" thinking of PFAL, it is addressed to "us".
("all the epistles are addressed to The Church, the body of Christ."-----PFAL)
But is that accurate?----Rhetoric intended.
Next, if you read the verse without the distortion of TWI, you see that the word "witness" is used as a noun.
Now, some may say, "Yes, but that's a convention of the English language and it wasn't written in English."
This word used for witness here is the same word that the word martyr comes from.
The context clearly demonstrates that it is being used as a noun, not a verb.
By the way, understanding what is written in light of its context is not unique to TWI, PFAL, or any other Biblical study entity. Honest----No kiddin'!!
Undershepherding?
Is that a real word? I know the meaning of under and I know the meaning of shepherding but undershepherding? Seems like it out to be someplace in The Bible if we're supposed to dedicate so much effort to it. I don't mean a scripture that can be squeezed to extract the meaning, I mean the actual word and its definition.
Just for "shirts and girdles", look at the very next verse.
II Tim. 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
I suppose the class could have been called "Witnessing, Undershepherding and Soldiering" but it might have been a pretty tough sell in the early 1970s when it originated due in no small part to the tense political climate that existed.
VPW made a small personal fortune at our expense.
We were his unwitting and willing sales force.
Not only did we not get a commission, we actual payed for the chance to participate.
the poor assistant then found a dead squirrel in the toilet, mere minutes before class started..
This really is a true story..
some people thought that the squirrel was sent from a group of satan worshipers as some kind of "message".. though couldn't understand how the thing got past the "hedge of believing" of da household..
and there was some kind of detailed analysis, behind the scenes, to try to ascertain who very well may have brought this kind of foul uncleanness into the "household".. and how.. at least one specific new student was considered.. though no one saw them anywhere near the bathroom before class..
no, I didn't do it. I'm sure I was considered though..
poor thing just may have wanted a drink of water. Got stuck in the hole, and in a panic, tried to get out in the wrong direction..
maybe he got into the class coordinator's Thorazine or Prozac, carefully shut the cabinet door, went to get some water to help choke it down, and overdosed right then and there.
Believe it or not, I have actually seen this happen.
I don't remember if it was a squirrel or a raccoon, but it came down the vent stack and got stuck in the trap in its quest for freedom.
It died, of course, and swelled up to approximately the size of a '58 Buick.(Roadmaster, I think.)
I used the experience to immediatedly sign it up for PFAL, citing references from the collateral,
Release From Your Prisons.
hey, I did consider that at the time.. that it merely came UP out of the toilet. Just couldn't figure at the time, how it got on the other side..
Oh.. did he (or she) make it through the class.. and speak in tongues the twelfth session?
Doojable, that was how I heard it explained. That we were supposed to be some kinda shepherd's helper under The Shepherd. He was supposed to be Jesus Christ. But in practice, I think the vicmeister assumed that position, as it was supposedly vacant. Less than two pages away in the syllabus the undersheherder's job can be summarized as "show them you care, wuv them up, GET THEM INTO THE CLASS".
With the appearance of The Squirrel, however dead he was at the time, people vowed vows, redoubled their efforts to stem the tide of debil spirits, plaque, and bad breath from assaulting their "charge" of new students..
quote: VPW made a small personal fortune at our expense.
We were his unwitting and willing sales force.
Once again, this is all assuming that God had nothing to do with PFAL.
quote: The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
Speak for yourself. Aren't you tired of hearing that? You couldn't have felt too close to God before PFAL if you were convinced it was a genuine ministry. Maybe, just maybe it WAS a genuine ministry run by humans who ain't perfect.
quote: VPW made a small personal fortune at our expense.
We were his unwitting and willing sales force.
Once again, this is all assuming that God had nothing to do with PFAL.
No, but it's been demonstrated beyond a REASONABLE doubt that whether or not
God had ANYTHING to do with pfal, it was designed as a revenue source,
a membership source, and a respect source for vpw, BY vpw.
Which, apparently, worked so well that decades after he died, people are
still lavishing praise on him for ripping off the work of others and so on.
quote: The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
Speak for yourself.
Yeah-if they were speaking for themself, they would have said things like
"I felt like" instead of -wait, they DID speak for themself.
John just didn't like what they said for themself....
Aren't you tired of hearing that? You couldn't have felt too close to God before PFAL if you were convinced it was a genuine ministry. Maybe, just maybe it WAS a genuine ministry run by humans who ain't perfect.
That's an acceptable premise UNTIL LOOKING into the WHOLE picture.
I started from that position, but when all the news of what happened at the top had
reached me-and I've only heard SOME of it-
then the aggregate picture is of an organization with many loving Christians,
which CLAIMS to be about God,
but is actually organized to the benefit of the founder,
with the "God" part being more of a PRODUCT, MERCHANDISE,
to which all the Christians were REGULAR SUBSCRIBERS and CUSTOMERS.
Here was the original post, with some emphases from me on
the speaking for themself part.
Odd how the post was trimmed so it didn't link back properly,
nor was the poster's name given, and it was on another page.
It's almost as if one didn't want the original post checked for accuracy.
Glad that I took it? I don`t think so....no. I was watching a show about *gateway drugs* How pot, in and of itself seemed pretty innocuous...fun, made life and problems seem a little easier to cope with, but that in many cases, it reduced ones inhibitions to where they would end up moving on to stronger more destructive drugs.
It struck me how similar this seemed to my twi experience.
I think pfal was that way....in and of itself, it seemed fairly harmless, even helpfull. Yet, buried within it were the kernels of teachings that would later germinate into whole sale destruction. Without first taking pfal, the classes, teachings, and programs that followed allowing the mogs to such wholesale destruction wouldn`t have been tolerated.
PFAL laid the groundwork, dulled our internal alarms, by convincing us that this was a legitimate Christian minister, with a legitimate ministry. It wasn`t untill years later after one had lost their friends , family, education, careers, suffered horrific abuse that we finally come to and try to figure out where it all went so wrong.
The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
We had to start all over.
Sometimes greasespot feels like we are a bunch of recovering addicts, trying to understand, trying to make sense of it all, trying to learn so that it never happens again.
BTW, I disagree partly about the recovering addicts,
since some of us don't seem interested in trying to understand, make sense of it,
learn so it never happens again, refrain from the addictive experience.
quote: The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
Speak for yourself.
Yeah-if they were speaking for themself, they would have said things like
"I felt like" instead of -wait, they DID speak for themself.
John just didn't like what they said for themself....
WW, do you see the word 'we'? It's the 4th word in the quote. This means she was speaking for ALL of us without authorization. She stubbornly refuses to acknowledge this.
quote: The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
Speak for yourself.
Yeah-if they were speaking for themself, they would have said things like
"I felt like" instead of -wait, they DID speak for themself.
John just didn't like what they said for themself....
WW, do you see the word 'we'? It's the 4th word in the quote. This means she was speaking for ALL of us without authorization. She stubbornly refuses to acknowledge this.
"We" is only a first person plural pronoun. It does not necessarily mean "we all or "all of us."
You keep using this as an argument - but it's weak. You stubbornly refuse to see that the "we" are whoever fits what Rascal is saying.
Or do you always include yourself whenever the word "we" is used?
dooj - We went to the doctor yesterday.
Johniam - What?! I didn't go! Don't include me in your activities.
You see, I'm sure there are people in your life that use the first person plural pronoun. I bet you know exactly what they mean. Or do you really spend your days defending yourself against being included in every activity where a person is talking about himself and others?
Bull sh it john *we* can and does refer to those of us whom it applied to...stop cramming your stupid foot into somebody elses shoe and then b itching when it doesn`t fit.
I don`t believe that it was a genuine ministry either, John. Looking at the fruit, applying the measuring stick given to us in the scriptures....I`d have to say that it was a clever counterfeit.
Scripturally, when one is confronted with adultery fornication, lasciviousness, not to mention familys broken and seperated, lives destroyed, rape and death....it is not the atributes of a Godly ministry.
We are warned repeatedly in the scritpures to avoid folks who do these these things.
As far as my relationship with God before twi? I don`t know, if it had been of any account, I guess that I would have been steered clear of such a destructive cult :(
That is one of those things that I will never understand.
Speak for yourself. Aren't you tired of hearing that? You couldn't have felt too close to God before PFAL if you were convinced it was a genuine ministry. Maybe, just maybe it WAS a genuine ministry run by humans who ain't perfect.
Hee hee..It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. It's like driving by a horrible accident and you can't help but look at it as you drive by. Perhaps more than anything else, the wierwille apologists who still, after the scam has been revealed, unrefutably, in great detail...STILL defend the cornfield cult leader...perhaps more than anything else, this is a testament to the effectiveness of wierwille's ability to con.
"run by humans who ain't perfect"...LOL ... ain't perfect? Talk about minimalization and denial!!!...The guy was drugging young girls and raping them!...
I often wonder about the wierwille apologists who hang out here...I'm thinking that maybe they have a subconscious masochistic tendency?
quote: Hee hee..It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. It's like driving by a horrible accident and you can't help but look at it as you drive by. Perhaps more than anything else, the wierwille apologists who still, after the scam has been revealed, unrefutably, in great detail...STILL defend the cornfield cult leader...perhaps more than anything else, this is a testament to the effectiveness of wierwille's ability to con.
"run by humans who ain't perfect"...LOL ... ain't perfect? Talk about minimalization and denial!!!...The guy was drugging young girls and raping them!...
I often wonder about the wierwille apologists who hang out here...I'm thinking that maybe they have a subconscious masochistic tendency?
So there was no Christianity in PFAL? So Christianity is a scam? So "masochists" keep you coming back to this forum? What does that make you? All those stories about drugging and raping are still hearsay IMO. If VP raped anybody, then David raped Bathsheba and who knows who else, yet God still called him a man after His own heart.
Surely if VP was the monster he's portrayed as here SOMEBODY would have gotten to him. I went to 14 ROAs. Would it really have been that hard for someone to bring a gun with them? Go to the main tent early? Make sure to get a seat in the front section? Wait until VP was behind the podium? Pick a time when he got everybody to laugh at something and let their collective guard down? Pull the gun out and run up there and fire several shots?
If he really destroyed all these lives like he was supposed to have...surely somebody would have been willing to do that. The guy who killed John Lennon had his gun crammed into a coat pocket. He just waited for his opportunity and BAM fish in a barrel. VP was out in the open all the time. All the bodyguards in the world couldn't have prevented an assassination if the perp wanted it bad enough. So all these drugging and raping stories are greatly exaggerated IMO.
The worst that VP did; the worst ANY Christian can do...is, as David did, give great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme. That's how God sees it. By 'enemies of the Lord' I don't just mean people and IMO a good chunk of that blasphemy is found here.
"run by humans who ain't perfect"...LOL ... ain't perfect? Talk about minimalization and denial!!!...The guy was drugging young girls and raping them!...
I often wonder about the wierwille apologists who hang out here...I'm thinking that maybe they have a subconscious masochistic tendency?
So there was no Christianity in PFAL? So Christianity is a scam? So "masochists" keep you coming back to this forum? What does that make you? All those stories about drugging and raping are still hearsay IMO. If VP raped anybody, then David raped Bathsheba and who knows who else, yet God still called him a man after His own heart.
Johniam - your consistent inablitity to keep things in context continually astounds me.
No such claim about "no Christianity in PFAL" and "Christianity is a scam" was made here. Sometimes you come across as someone who just has to justify their own actions and belief while eliminating the guilt that you feel because you just don't see anything wrong with what lots of other folks say is wrong.
So...just how many women have to say that VP raped THEM before you believe it? How many will be enough for you? 5? 10? 50? 100? You have the luxury of calling it hearsay because you never met any of these women. Hearsay legally applies to a case where a claim is made and the accuser cannot be cross-examined. You seem to be covering your willful suspension of belief with the fact that you have not met even one of these women. I wonder... why don't you contact a few right here on the board. If you were honest, you'd take the opportunity to "cross-examine." I've not even gone digging and I've seen more than ten women here that have first hand information.
You equating David's adultery with VP's drugging and raping betrays your obvious bias.
There is no evidence that Bathesheba resisted David. There is no scripture that states that David drugged Bathesheba. Just HOW do you get drugging and rape out of that. [bTW RAPE was a big deal in the old testament - remember Dinah? (Gen 34) - her brothers cut the perpetrator's member (AKA -d1ck) off, IIRC.]
I could be wrong here - but I was taught that Shechem raped her then found he was in love with her.
There is the record of Tamar being raped by Absolom. (2 Sam 13) Once again, the rapist was killed. I'm not advocating murder here - but it does go to show that rape is not to be taken lightly.
I also found this:
Deut. 22:25-28
"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her,"
But you and others keep blaming the women... hmmmm
Surely if VP was the monster he's portrayed as here SOMEBODY would have gotten to him. I went to 14 ROAs. Would it really have been that hard for someone to bring a gun with them? Go to the main tent early? Make sure to get a seat in the front section? Wait until VP was behind the podium? Pick a time when he got everybody to laugh at something and let their collective guard down? Pull the gun out and run up there and fire several shots?
If he really destroyed all these lives like he was supposed to have...surely somebody would have been willing to do that. The guy who killed John Lennon had his gun crammed into a coat pocket. He just waited for his opportunity and BAM fish in a barrel. VP was out in the open all the time. All the bodyguards in the world couldn't have prevented an assassination if the perp wanted it bad enough. So all these drugging and raping stories are greatly exaggerated IMO.
So that's your argument? No one murdered VP so he must not have been that bad... Check your history books, a lot of evil SOB's grew to be old, evil SOB's.
The worst that VP did; the worst ANY Christian can do...is, as David did, give great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme. That's how God sees it. By 'enemies of the Lord' I don't just mean people and IMO a good chunk of that blasphemy is found here.
So...giving occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme - EVIL. Murder, rape, idolotry - not so bad.
The worst that VP did; the worst ANY Christian can do...is, as David did, give great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme. That's how God sees it. By 'enemies of the Lord' I don't just mean people and IMO a good chunk of that blasphemy is found here.
Wow, you make your god sound pretty selfish and ugly. Raping and murdering the innocent is not as evil as blasphemy. So Pawtucket must be one of the most evil men around??? Shame on him, allowing a forum that is not pro PFAL.
And Rascal, omg, no wonder you stalk her, with her petty ideas about standards of conduct. Whew, thank goodness you are here johnieur, to point these dangerous folk out to us.
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rascal
Glad that I took it? I don`t think so....no. I was watching a show about *gateway drugs* How pot, in and of itself seemed pretty innocuous...fun, made life and problems seem a little easier to cope with, but that in many cases, it reduced ones inhibitions to where they would end up moving on to stronger more destructive drugs.
It struck me how similar this seemed to my twi experience.
I think pfal was that way....in and of itself, it seemed fairly harmless, even helpfull. Yet, buried within it were the kernels of teachings that would later germinate into whole sale destruction. Without first taking pfal, the classes, teachings, and programs that followed allowing the mogs to such wholesale destruction wouldn`t have been tolerated.
PFAL laid the groundwork, dulled our internal alarms, by convincing us that this was a legitimate Christian minister, with a legitimate ministry. It wasn`t untill years later after one had lost their friends , family, education, careers, suffered horrific abuse that we finally come to and try to figure out where it all went so wrong.
The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
We had to start all over.
Sometimes greasespot feels like we are a bunch of recovering addicts, trying to understand, trying to make sense of it all, trying to learn so that it never happens again.
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waysider
I never knew Donnie personally.
By all accounts that I've heard of him, he was a heck of a nice guy.
I'm sure he was totally convinced he was doing the right thing.
I would never want to negate the many good memories people have of him.
That is not at all the purpose of this post.
This whole witnessing and undershepherding concept was based on II Tim. 2:2.
First, look at who it's addressed to.
Well, according to the "administration" thinking of PFAL, it is addressed to "us".
("all the epistles are addressed to The Church, the body of Christ."-----PFAL)
But is that accurate?----Rhetoric intended.
Next, if you read the verse without the distortion of TWI, you see that the word "witness" is used as a noun.
Now, some may say, "Yes, but that's a convention of the English language and it wasn't written in English."
This word used for witness here is the same word that the word martyr comes from.
The context clearly demonstrates that it is being used as a noun, not a verb.
By the way, understanding what is written in light of its context is not unique to TWI, PFAL, or any other Biblical study entity. Honest----No kiddin'!!
Undershepherding?
Is that a real word? I know the meaning of under and I know the meaning of shepherding but undershepherding? Seems like it out to be someplace in The Bible if we're supposed to dedicate so much effort to it. I don't mean a scripture that can be squeezed to extract the meaning, I mean the actual word and its definition.
Just for "shirts and girdles", look at the very next verse.
II Tim. 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
I suppose the class could have been called "Witnessing, Undershepherding and Soldiering" but it might have been a pretty tough sell in the early 1970s when it originated due in no small part to the tense political climate that existed.
VPW made a small personal fortune at our expense.
We were his unwitting and willing sales force.
Not only did we not get a commission, we actual payed for the chance to participate.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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Ham
This really is a true story..
some people thought that the squirrel was sent from a group of satan worshipers as some kind of "message".. though couldn't understand how the thing got past the "hedge of believing" of da household..
and there was some kind of detailed analysis, behind the scenes, to try to ascertain who very well may have brought this kind of foul uncleanness into the "household".. and how.. at least one specific new student was considered.. though no one saw them anywhere near the bathroom before class..
no, I didn't do it. I'm sure I was considered though..
poor thing just may have wanted a drink of water. Got stuck in the hole, and in a panic, tried to get out in the wrong direction..
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Ham
Looking back now.. it looks like a comedy..
I wonder if anybody ever considered writing a situation comedy about life in a defunct cult..
I'd help with the script..
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Ham
"Well, we must be getting to the devil spirit relm. it's just the devil is fighting us. Now he's sending squirrels. Keep SIT'ing, stay sharp.."
I may not be exactly "normal".. but I'm not THAT "un-normal" anymore..
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Ham
I dunno.. considering he was in the bathroom..
maybe he got into the class coordinator's Thorazine or Prozac, carefully shut the cabinet door, went to get some water to help choke it down, and overdosed right then and there.
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waysider
Believe it or not, I have actually seen this happen.
I don't remember if it was a squirrel or a raccoon, but it came down the vent stack and got stuck in the trap in its quest for freedom.
It died, of course, and swelled up to approximately the size of a '58 Buick.(Roadmaster, I think.)
I used the experience to immediatedly sign it up for PFAL, citing references from the collateral,
Release From Your Prisons.
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doojable
Does anyone know where the term "undershepherding" began?
Was it because someone realized that there was only really one Shepherd?
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Ham
hey, I did consider that at the time.. that it merely came UP out of the toilet. Just couldn't figure at the time, how it got on the other side..
Oh.. did he (or she) make it through the class.. and speak in tongues the twelfth session?
Doojable, that was how I heard it explained. That we were supposed to be some kinda shepherd's helper under The Shepherd. He was supposed to be Jesus Christ. But in practice, I think the vicmeister assumed that position, as it was supposedly vacant. Less than two pages away in the syllabus the undersheherder's job can be summarized as "show them you care, wuv them up, GET THEM INTO THE CLASS".
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waysider
Mississippi Squirrel Revival.
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Ham
Waysider, that's so close to reality here..
With the appearance of The Squirrel, however dead he was at the time, people vowed vows, redoubled their efforts to stem the tide of debil spirits, plaque, and bad breath from assaulting their "charge" of new students..
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johniam
quote: The Gospel as a sales tool
quote: VPW made a small personal fortune at our expense.
We were his unwitting and willing sales force.
Once again, this is all assuming that God had nothing to do with PFAL.
quote: The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
Speak for yourself. Aren't you tired of hearing that? You couldn't have felt too close to God before PFAL if you were convinced it was a genuine ministry. Maybe, just maybe it WAS a genuine ministry run by humans who ain't perfect.
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WordWolf
No, but it's been demonstrated beyond a REASONABLE doubt that whether or not
God had ANYTHING to do with pfal, it was designed as a revenue source,
a membership source, and a respect source for vpw, BY vpw.
Which, apparently, worked so well that decades after he died, people are
still lavishing praise on him for ripping off the work of others and so on.
Yeah-if they were speaking for themself, they would have said things like
"I felt like" instead of -wait, they DID speak for themself.
John just didn't like what they said for themself....
That's an acceptable premise UNTIL LOOKING into the WHOLE picture.
I started from that position, but when all the news of what happened at the top had
reached me-and I've only heard SOME of it-
then the aggregate picture is of an organization with many loving Christians,
which CLAIMS to be about God,
but is actually organized to the benefit of the founder,
with the "God" part being more of a PRODUCT, MERCHANDISE,
to which all the Christians were REGULAR SUBSCRIBERS and CUSTOMERS.
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WordWolf
Here was the original post, with some emphases from me on
the speaking for themself part.
Odd how the post was trimmed so it didn't link back properly,
nor was the poster's name given, and it was on another page.
It's almost as if one didn't want the original post checked for accuracy.
BTW, I disagree partly about the recovering addicts,
since some of us don't seem interested in trying to understand, make sense of it,
learn so it never happens again, refrain from the addictive experience.
Some of us, yes, but not all of us.
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johniam
quote:
quote: The same troubles we had before are still there, only worse for having been ignored for decades. In the end, I felt like I had been drawn so very far away from God...
Speak for yourself.
Yeah-if they were speaking for themself, they would have said things like
"I felt like" instead of -wait, they DID speak for themself.
John just didn't like what they said for themself....
WW, do you see the word 'we'? It's the 4th word in the quote. This means she was speaking for ALL of us without authorization. She stubbornly refuses to acknowledge this.
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doojable
"We" is only a first person plural pronoun. It does not necessarily mean "we all or "all of us."
You keep using this as an argument - but it's weak. You stubbornly refuse to see that the "we" are whoever fits what Rascal is saying.
Or do you always include yourself whenever the word "we" is used?
dooj - We went to the doctor yesterday.
Johniam - What?! I didn't go! Don't include me in your activities.
You see, I'm sure there are people in your life that use the first person plural pronoun. I bet you know exactly what they mean. Or do you really spend your days defending yourself against being included in every activity where a person is talking about himself and others?
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rascal
Bull sh it john *we* can and does refer to those of us whom it applied to...stop cramming your stupid foot into somebody elses shoe and then b itching when it doesn`t fit.
I don`t believe that it was a genuine ministry either, John. Looking at the fruit, applying the measuring stick given to us in the scriptures....I`d have to say that it was a clever counterfeit.
Scripturally, when one is confronted with adultery fornication, lasciviousness, not to mention familys broken and seperated, lives destroyed, rape and death....it is not the atributes of a Godly ministry.
We are warned repeatedly in the scritpures to avoid folks who do these these things.
As far as my relationship with God before twi? I don`t know, if it had been of any account, I guess that I would have been steered clear of such a destructive cult :(
That is one of those things that I will never understand.
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Tom Strange
I'm fairly certain that Mike probably can help you with that last part...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hee hee..It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. It's like driving by a horrible accident and you can't help but look at it as you drive by. Perhaps more than anything else, the wierwille apologists who still, after the scam has been revealed, unrefutably, in great detail...STILL defend the cornfield cult leader...perhaps more than anything else, this is a testament to the effectiveness of wierwille's ability to con.
"run by humans who ain't perfect"...LOL
... ain't perfect? Talk about minimalization and denial!!!...The guy was drugging young girls and raping them!...
I often wonder about the wierwille apologists who hang out here...I'm thinking that maybe they have a subconscious masochistic tendency?
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Eagle
The one I like best is:
"Will the class teach me how to believe for God's promises?"
"Absolutely! If you sign up, the class will teach you how to believe!
"Then I want to take the class. Here's that green card..."
"You forgot the money..."
"What money?"
"The $100.00 for the class..."
"I didn't know there was a charge..."
"It's a donation..."
"Oh, thank God...I'm broke right now...but I'll see what I can scrape up later..."
"But without the $100.00, you can't attend the class..."
"Then it's not a donation, it's a charge, right?"
"No, it is only available to those with the heart to give $100.00."
"Does that mean if we're poor, we don't have heart?"
"No. It means that you just need to believe for the money..."
"But I want to take the class to learn to believe..."
"You can believe to do that, you know..."
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johniam
quote: Hee hee..It's posts like this that keep me coming back to this forum. It's like driving by a horrible accident and you can't help but look at it as you drive by. Perhaps more than anything else, the wierwille apologists who still, after the scam has been revealed, unrefutably, in great detail...STILL defend the cornfield cult leader...perhaps more than anything else, this is a testament to the effectiveness of wierwille's ability to con.
"run by humans who ain't perfect"...LOL ... ain't perfect? Talk about minimalization and denial!!!...The guy was drugging young girls and raping them!...
I often wonder about the wierwille apologists who hang out here...I'm thinking that maybe they have a subconscious masochistic tendency?
So there was no Christianity in PFAL? So Christianity is a scam? So "masochists" keep you coming back to this forum? What does that make you? All those stories about drugging and raping are still hearsay IMO. If VP raped anybody, then David raped Bathsheba and who knows who else, yet God still called him a man after His own heart.
Surely if VP was the monster he's portrayed as here SOMEBODY would have gotten to him. I went to 14 ROAs. Would it really have been that hard for someone to bring a gun with them? Go to the main tent early? Make sure to get a seat in the front section? Wait until VP was behind the podium? Pick a time when he got everybody to laugh at something and let their collective guard down? Pull the gun out and run up there and fire several shots?
If he really destroyed all these lives like he was supposed to have...surely somebody would have been willing to do that. The guy who killed John Lennon had his gun crammed into a coat pocket. He just waited for his opportunity and BAM fish in a barrel. VP was out in the open all the time. All the bodyguards in the world couldn't have prevented an assassination if the perp wanted it bad enough. So all these drugging and raping stories are greatly exaggerated IMO.
The worst that VP did; the worst ANY Christian can do...is, as David did, give great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme. That's how God sees it. By 'enemies of the Lord' I don't just mean people and IMO a good chunk of that blasphemy is found here.
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doojable
Johniam - your consistent inablitity to keep things in context continually astounds me.
No such claim about "no Christianity in PFAL" and "Christianity is a scam" was made here. Sometimes you come across as someone who just has to justify their own actions and belief while eliminating the guilt that you feel because you just don't see anything wrong with what lots of other folks say is wrong.
So...just how many women have to say that VP raped THEM before you believe it? How many will be enough for you? 5? 10? 50? 100? You have the luxury of calling it hearsay because you never met any of these women. Hearsay legally applies to a case where a claim is made and the accuser cannot be cross-examined. You seem to be covering your willful suspension of belief with the fact that you have not met even one of these women. I wonder... why don't you contact a few right here on the board. If you were honest, you'd take the opportunity to "cross-examine." I've not even gone digging and I've seen more than ten women here that have first hand information.
You equating David's adultery with VP's drugging and raping betrays your obvious bias.
There is no evidence that Bathesheba resisted David. There is no scripture that states that David drugged Bathesheba. Just HOW do you get drugging and rape out of that. [bTW RAPE was a big deal in the old testament - remember Dinah? (Gen 34) - her brothers cut the perpetrator's member (AKA -d1ck) off, IIRC.]
I could be wrong here - but I was taught that Shechem raped her then found he was in love with her.
There is the record of Tamar being raped by Absolom. (2 Sam 13) Once again, the rapist was killed. I'm not advocating murder here - but it does go to show that rape is not to be taken lightly.
I also found this:
Deut. 22:25-28
"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her,"
But you and others keep blaming the women... hmmmm
So that's your argument? No one murdered VP so he must not have been that bad... Check your history books, a lot of evil SOB's grew to be old, evil SOB's.So...giving occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme - EVIL. Murder, rape, idolotry - not so bad.
What a scary thought...
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Bramble
Wow, you make your god sound pretty selfish and ugly. Raping and murdering the innocent is not as evil as blasphemy. So Pawtucket must be one of the most evil men around??? Shame on him, allowing a forum that is not pro PFAL.
And Rascal, omg, no wonder you stalk her, with her petty ideas about standards of conduct. Whew, thank goodness you are here johnieur, to point these dangerous folk out to us.
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waysider
Hey folks
Nobody murdered VPW so that there proves conclusively that he was one "A-OK" kind of guy.
Yup. Shore does. Johnnyheis said so.
And I can clearly see how it is relevant to a discussion of sales ploys used to pitch PfAl.
Hey, Johnny----Did you know he had body guards?
Did you know he sent "goons" out to have "friendly" conversations with people out in the field who were bad-mouthing "The Ministry"?
Yeah, I see it now.
Nobody murdered him so that proves he didn't do anything wrong.
I gotta tell ya, Johnsonur, that's some pretty twisted logic.
Do you ever consider murder as an answer to dealing with someone who has wronged you?
You can tell me Johnny, It's just between us pals.
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