Your pen or mine?

[doojable]

quote: Edited to add....In hind sight, I realize that ....even though the animals in the store seemed well cared for and something that people needed....or the bible was being taught and God shared about....I was only valuable to the pet store owners as long as I was making them lots of money. In twi, I was only valuable or spiritual if I was producing as well...in both cases there was never any actual concern for me, or the animals or the scriptures, or the customers, it was all about how much income could be generated, with products and effective sales force.

Yeah, but did you really ever doubt that you were valuable to God? I didn't. That's probably the biggest thing TWI ever taught me...that a nobody like me could actually be pleasing to God and still be being myself. I NEVER seriously doubted that. I've had a lot of conversations with people raised Catholic and I conclude that some of them really took it to heart when they got reamed in the confessional, but others didn't.

That's nice for you. Actually, the whole "if you leave God won't spit in your direction" theory did imply that God didn't really value a person unless they walked in TWI lockstep.

That's the difference between TWI and the pet store. Once the motivation to sell pets was queered, there was no reason to stay, but in TWI at least God was still accessible, even if he told you to get the h out of there. You can take love out of a group of believers, but you can't take God out.

God is accessible regardless of the group of people. Why stay with a group of unbelievers who keep telling lies? Speaking about God like He was some bully was a lie. How much effort was it to stay and filter through the BS?

And WHY STAY with a group of believers that are no longer loving? What are they believing if they no longer have love?

Seems to me that that's the time you find another group of believers and spend their time with them.

[Ham]

How much effort was it to stay and filter through the BS?

Few have been able to sort it all out prior to leaving the establishment.

With one stupid doctrine or edict after another, I didn't have time to sort the first one out before the next one hit..

we weren't supposed to think, or sort it out.. that was the whole idea behind "implict obedience", was it not?

Edited November 19, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Nero]

Yeah, but did you really ever doubt that you were valuable to God? I didn't. That's probably the biggest thing TWI ever taught me...that a nobody like me could actually be pleasing to God and still be being myself. I NEVER seriously doubted that. I've had a lot of conversations with people raised Catholic and I conclude that some of them really took it to heart when they got reamed in the confessional, but others didn't.

That's the difference between TWI and the pet store. Once the motivation to sell pets was queered, there was no reason to stay, but in TWI at least God was still accessible, even if he told you to get the h out of there. You can take love out of a group of believers, but you can't take God out.

This is just my experience - but I doubted I was valuable to God as I was in TWI. Dear lord... what a hateful person. What hateful people were in there - for goodness sake they had a song dedicated to hating homosexuals and anyone not in TWI. It took some good friends outside of TWI to show me how to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs or lack thereof.

I think if I started believing in him today I would be much more valuable as I am now - a decent human being who has compassion for others.

As for - You can take the love out of believers but not God. I think that is untrue. If God is love - and when there is no love in a group - then where is God? I don't know if God can exist where there is no love.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Nero

[rascal]

Well said Nero.

Your post reminds me of the account in the bible about the father who had two sons....he told the boys to do something....

One boy said no and left...he ended up going back later and doing the job that his father wanted.

The other boy told his dad... yeah, he`d do it, but then blew him off and didn`t do the job.

Jesus then asked...which one did his fathers will?

You are correct, ARE a valuable human being :)

Edited November 19, 2007 by rascal

[Belle]

This is just my experience - but I doubted I was valuable to God as I was in TWI. Dear lord... what a hateful person. What hateful people were in there - for goodness sake they had a song dedicated to hating homosexuals and anyone not in TWI. It took some good friends outside of TWI to show me how to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs or lack thereof.

I think if I started believing in him today I would be much more valuable as I am now - a decent human being who has compassion for others.

As for - You can take the love out of believers but not God. I think that is untrue. If God is love - and when there is no love in a group - then where is God? I don't know if God can exist where there is no love.

:eusa_clap:

Excellent post, Nero!

TWI taught me that I was not good enough - I did not abundantly share enough - I did not give enough of my time (although they had practically every waking moment) - I did not submit to my husband enough - I did not study the bible enough - I did not speak in tongues enough - I did not renew my mind enough - I did not witness enough.....

Nothing I did was good enough for them or God - and, by golly, I had the proof every time something bad happened to me or my husband. :blink:

I hated homosexuals and was extremely intolerant of any "wanna be faker of a christian" who just happened to belong to some other church or religion.

I was fully of hate - hate for myself - hate for not being able to be good enough - hate for others who dared dismiss TWI and what we taught - envy disguised as hate for others who seemed to be truly happy when I knew my "niceness" and "happiness" was faked because it was required of me.

I'm so much more peaceful and genuinely happy now that I don't have to judge others, sell TWI or try to live up to the impossible standards of God as TWI taught them.

[waysider]

Yeah, but did you really ever doubt that you were valuable to God? I didn't. That's probably the biggest thing TWI ever taught me...that a nobody like me could actually be pleasing to God and still be being myself. I NEVER seriously doubted that. I've had a lot of conversations with people raised Catholic and I conclude that some of them really took it to heart when they got reamed in the confessional, but others didn't.

That's the difference between TWI and the pet store. Once the motivation to sell pets was queered, there was no reason to stay, but in TWI at least God was still accessible, even if he told you to get the h out of there. You can take love out of a group of believers, but you can't take God out.

John, with all due respect.

Picture yourself, if you will, being awakened out of a dead sleep at 3 AM, in the middle of Podunk, USA, with almost no money and being informed that you are a total disgrace to God and you must immediately vacate the state you are in if you have any expectation of even remaining inside God's hedge of protection. Failure to do so could not only result in your falling from God's favor, it could result in your death.

Would you still have those warm, fuzzy feelings or do you think you would feel like the world is crashing in around you?

I saw this happen to my FLO brothers. Two of them lived in the same "house" as me.

It almost happened to me as well, later on, but I had a "cute" wife who unwittingly bought me a reprieve.

I'm thankful you never saw this stuff but it really did happen.

[johniam]

quote: Picture yourself, if you will, being awakened out of a dead sleep at 3 AM, in the middle of Podunk, USA, with almost no money and being informed that you are a total disgrace to God and you must immediately vacate the state you are in if you have any expectation of even remaining inside God's hedge of protection. Failure to do so could not only result in your falling from God's favor, it could result in your death.

Would you still have those warm, fuzzy feelings or do you think you would feel like the world is crashing in around you?

I saw this happen to my FLO brothers. Two of them lived in the same "house" as me.

It almost happened to me as well, later on, but I had a "cute" wife who unwittingly bought me a reprieve.

I'm thankful you never saw this stuff but it really did happen.

The reason it didn't happen to me is that I wouldn't fall for that bunk. During my wow year once the family coordinator tried to intimidate me and my wow brother by saying that if we didn't behave better she'd get us kicked off the wow field and we'd have to move out of the house we lived in. I called her bluff and said OK let's do it. She probably could have gotten us kicked out, but then she and the other girl would've had to pay the bills by themselves so she didn't.

I suppose it's possible that even back in the 70s there were people who wanted to do the large scale "cleansing" they ended up doing in the 90s. It's all moot now.

[Ham]

Picture yourself, if you will, being awakened out of a dead sleep at 3 AM, in the middle of Podunk, USA, with almost no money and being informed that you are a total disgrace to God and you must immediately vacate the state you are in if you have any expectation of even remaining inside God's hedge of protection. Failure to do so could not only result in your falling from God's favor, it could result in your death.

Would you still have those warm, fuzzy feelings or do you think you would feel like the world is crashing in around you?

I saw this happen to my FLO brothers. Two of them lived in the same "house" as me.

It almost happened to me as well, later on, but I had a "cute" wife who unwittingly bought me a reprieve.

I'm thankful you never saw this stuff but it really did happen.

Imagine going through this kinda "stuff" without parents or any other possible kind of support or help at the time..

[Nero]

Imagine going through this kinda "stuff" without parents or any other possible kind of support or help at the time..

Imagine going through this kinds "stuff" while your parents are there and allowing it...

[Ham]

Yep. Either way it would be really bad..

"they" had a habit of exercising supposed authority over those who didn't really have any other place to go..

whole families were set out in the street from corps or staff at times. No savings, no place to go.

[Nero]

Yeah. =( Those sadists seemed to enjoy that sort of thing.

Which makes me wonder...

Do you think they did that sort of thing to prove a point or try to make them an example? Not just for the enjoyment of kicking them out while they were down...

But someone in that sort of situation... if they had no one, no where to go, no money, no nothing... that would be depressing.

Someone might kill themselves because of it (like I know happened at least once).

So wouldn't that show up sheeps that if you go out from under the hedge you would die. Because the debbils of suicide would get us?

Maybe they just saw people who were really down on their luck as a great opportunity?

[doojable]

..or targets...

[rascal]

People did commit suicide after being kicked out of programs, others almost did. The woman who declared me posessed, I think on hind sight was just plain miserable and mean and wanted to take it out on somebody because she hadn`t got the assignment that she was believing God for...What ever reason they did it for.... it was devastating to the person denounced when they didn`t know how or why they had engendered the leaders disgust and wrath....shrug

[Larry N Moore]

Yeah. =( Those sadists seemed to enjoy that sort of thing.

Which makes me wonder...

Do you think they did that sort of thing to prove a point or try to make them an example? Not just for the enjoyment of kicking them out while they were down...

But someone in that sort of situation... if they had no one, no where to go, no money, no nothing... that would be depressing.

Someone might kill themselves because of it (like I know happened at least once).

So wouldn't that show up sheeps that if you go out from under the hedge you would die. Because the debbils of suicide would get us?

Maybe they just saw people who were really down on their luck as a great opportunity?

I understand your point but, when I left TWI my first question was -- God what should I do now?

[doojable]

You left on your own volition, did you not, Larry? Those that were kicked out had a different mindset. While you asked God what to do next, many of these folks asked God how they had failed Him.

I left voluntarily. I asked the "what next?" questions before even leaving. I'm sure that is part of the process that led to me leaving in the first place. I saw that God was bigger than one ministry and one class.

I would guess that for those that were kicked out it felt like a dishonorable discharge - until they realized they had been released from a great prison.

Edited November 21, 2007 by doojable

[Nero]

Sort or like being fired or quiting?

Quiting makes you feel good. Take that Mr. Bossman!

Being fired sucks. They treated you badly... and then they kicked your arse out on top of that. Not fun.

[cman]

Since we are speaking of signing up for pfal-the subject of this thread.

And lines used to get you there and through it.

What was the reason for taking it?

What was the best part? Then?

For you personally that is.....

[Larry N Moore]

You left on your own volition, did you not, Larry?

You are correct. However, one doesn't leave behind, easily, something they devoted most of their life to without some pain. It's like losing a dear relative or friend to death. It doesn't matter how they died -- you still go through a grieving process.

Those that were kicked out had a different mindset. While you asked God what to do next, many of these folks asked God how they had failed him.

I didn't have that mindset, obviously. I always thought I was serving God first and foremost so, the thought that I failed God never crossed my mind. I knew from experience that not all those who said they were serving God were actually doing so. And some of my greatest examples of people who were serving their own bellies were members of the elite group called the Corp.

I left voluntarily. I asked the "what next?" questions before even leaving.

For me, the first question I asked was -- Should I leave? That He left up to me. The second question came after I made MY decision to leave.

I'm sure that is part of the process that led to me leaving in the first place. I saw that God was bigger than one ministry and one class.

Part of the problem (that I saw through experience) was for many of these (to borrow a phrase from Eyes) so-called leaders the ministry was their God. Ego can surely blind one to what is true.

I would guess that for those that were kicked out it felt like a dishonorable discharge - until they realized they had been released from a great prison.

To feel this way -- imo -- is a clear sign of pride. God wasn't kicking them out (of the Body) -- people were and people DON'T have that authority. Unfortunately, for many, TWI WAS the Body. That's idolatry. Why someone who had a relationship with God didn't see that is beyond me. In fact I remember having a conversation with a dear friend to chose to stay in when I left and was asked: Why don't I see what you're seeing Larry? My answer was -- Perhaps you're just not ready to see it.

Edited November 21, 2007 by Larry N Moore

[Nero]

I took the class because my parents wanted me to take it. :3

The best part? Hmmm... probably that my cousin was there with me and I got to talk to her during breaks. Also... drawing in the pfal margins. Yup. :3 Oh! And day dreaming. Mmmm... *happy sigh*

[Bumpy]

Larry, are you and Cman spending ThanksGiving together?

[Larry N Moore]

Larry, are you and Cman spending ThanksGiving together?

My door is always opened for both friends and strangers (I think there's a verse about entertaining angels unaware).

P.S. Dooj, I didn't say but the conversation I had with my dear friend was the last one I ever had with her. After that she marked and avoided me. Do you think it didn't grieve my heart to have someone who I loved so much walk away whenever they saw me in public places?

[doojable]

We're in agreement on many points. I have no doubt that the feelings that filled those that left ran the gamut.

I said I would only stay as long as I believed God was being honored. I left when that was no longer evident to me. I always knew that God would leave that decision up to me.

I feel very uncomfortable now speaking for folks who's experiences I can only repeat and guess about. I've talked to some and I've tried to put myself in their shoes. I'm merely trying to empathize. But at one point it just becomes vanity for me to continue. It seems like the subject of a whole other thread - where those who were kicked out can tell how they felt, with no judgement from those of us that chose to leave.

********************************

Your pen or mine? It occurs to me that if the truth were declared it wouldn't have needed sales tools.

Can you imagine Jesus saying, "Look at this scroll, tell me what promises appeal to you the most. Give me your last mite..."

[Larry N Moore]

We're in agreement on many points. I have no doubt that the feelings that filled those that left ran the gamut.

I agree. Having spoken to many that either left of their own volition or were kicked out I felt a great deal of sorrow for the pain they experienced. Most of the time all I could think to say was: May God see you through this time and bless you more in the future than He has in the past. What more could I say?

[doojable]

I agree. Having spoken to many that either left of their own volition or were kicked out I felt a great deal of sorrow for the pain they experienced. Most of the time all I could think to say was: May God see you through this time and bless you more in the future than He has in the past. What more could I say?

I said, "God is with you through all of this. I'll be there for you as well."

[Larry N Moore]

I said, "God is with you through all of this. I'll be there for you as well."

That's a good thing to say but, I think those who knew me well enough already knew that I would always be there whenever they needed me. I still hear from many of them from time to time but, our lives have gone in different directions and most of them are doing very well. Thank God!