One day I realized that I has started to view people on in terms of their "class taking potential." THAT is using people and I wanted no part of it. I took an immediate vacation from all "witnessing."
Then there was the guilt I felt for asking someone to give up 3 weeks of their time for a class that was on video - or worst - TAPE!
I did the bar thing, the mall thing, the door to door thing...it all sukked!
One day I realized that I has started to view people on in terms of their "class taking potential." THAT is using people and I wanted no part of it. I took an immediate vacation from all "witnessing."
Then there was the guilt I felt for asking someone to give up 3 weeks of their time for a class that was on video - or worst - TAPE!
I did the bar thing, the mall thing, the door to door thing...it all sukked!
Yes,that was finally the straw that broke the camels back,I refused to go door to door,said it was an old wineskin,Well that led to a fight,and I was outta that cult.
I wonder if anyone ever tried mime witnessing. No, not witnessing TO mimes.. "witnessing" AS a mime.
A person could probably then "witness" in malls without security chasing them out..
might even amuse them enough they'd toss a couple of quarters your way..
hmm. could mime somebody stringing chairs.. people would think you were really nuts..
Hi Ham,
It never occurred to me to try it.
However, in the late 80's I did some talk radio comedy where I developed a Radio Mime bit. Then, a few years ago, I adapted it into two separate stand-up comedy bits. It was fun.
Oh yeah.. door to door.. sheesh. I don't think I've told this story to anybody..
I remember going with an "elder" in da church..
the joint said "NO SOLICITING".. big, black letters..
guess who decided to go there.. not the Squirrel. I actually said something about it.. "ya know, it's not REALLY a good idea..
But do the high and mighty elders think da crazy squirrel just might be wight?
noooooooo. So I goes with mr. high and mighty..
sometimes I have this "thing".. call it revelation, call it whatever.. but whatever might be if we continue following this time line is gonna be so nasty, that I see it coming a mile away.. it's a surreal experience.. everything kinda looks blue.. but it's almost like I've witnessed the events before, and I merely watch them occuring in their proper order..
I told the guy.. "two cop cars are gonna pull in here in five minutes. I will be going in one, and you will be going in the other. What do you want to do about it?"
within five minutes.. guess who pulled in the parking lot.. and how many..
So.. we slowly meander off towards the car, acting like we're natives there..
Waysider, was this "shill witnessing" a FLO thing?
Nope.
This predated my FLO days.
In FLO, we did "door-to-door" and some "mall witnessing"(not shill---- at least in the twigs I was in.) on witnessing nights.
(We were primarily supposed to use our "9-5" jobs as a vehicle for witnessing, so we really didn't do much evening witnessing. We mainly worked at limb HQ or on limb HQ assignments, such as MANNA, or prison outreach, or special projects like "Foreordained"(Gospel quartet) etc. in the evenings.)
But, since all our "twigs" were closed corporation, we could not bring them to twig with us.
(Not many newbies want to go to twig at 11 pm anyway. Go figure.)
Instead, we turned their names and info(ie: sales leads) over to the believers who were operating twigs in their locale.
They followed up on the "under-shepherding" aspect.
Sometimes the local people ran the classes and sometimes we did if it wasn't too distant.
It was really an impersonal approach.
Once you passed their name(sales lead) on to the local people, you were pretty much out of the picture and had no direct contact with them.
Even if you wanted to, it would have been difficult because we did not have phones in the "houses" and almost all our time was controlled. Plus, you could not leave the complex without specific approval other than to go to your "9-5" or regularly scheduled FLO activities.
There was exception made for Saturday afternoon and evening so you could go into town and get a haircut or do laundry at the laundry-mat, etc.
Still, you could not leave the local area without prior approval.
It did me, so I dealt with it. It was only after dealing with the tools I had available to me that I started to see it was good and proper. I think if you deal with it from within God's Word you'll feel better.
It did me, so I dealt with it. It was only after dealing with the tools I had available to me that I started to see it was good and proper. I think if you deal with it from within God's Word you'll feel better.
Mike - I didn't hear that line then.
I didn't take that class until I was in rez. So...Donnie Fugit did not teach the class I was in. If I heard that line, it didn't register with me. The fact that I don't remember it shows me that I either never heard it, or I never really believed it.
And I don't want to feel better about that line. It's a bunch of cult BS.
It reduces people from being living and breathing souls to being butts sitting in perfectly aligned seats.
It reduces the Gospel from being truth to being a sales tool.
Our goal in Witnessing and Undershepherding II Tim. 2:2
The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power for Abundant Living and help them walk on it.
Now here is II Tim. 2:1& 2
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
I am curious to know how that could possible be translated:
Go forth and sell classes.
Indoctrinate the students into our cult dogma.
I looked up the phrase (highlighted in red and couldn't find it in my syllabus. I think I took the class in 1973 or 74. Are you referring to a later edition?
hmm. didn't the "believer cop" guy end up being a security guard somewhere?
I know one of the "cop Believers" here got his tail handed to him by his fellows. When he got out of the hospital (a few weeks, nearly a month later he and his family moved to another city in the state.
Wowser.. sounds like they came close to an official fragging..
I don't exactly condone people beating the snot out of people..
but if one should anger a group to take that kind of action.. it may be a wrongful assumption that the person would think it happened because they are a "believer" instead of realizing it was because they were terribly, terribly annoying..
quote: It reduces people from being living and breathing souls to being butts sitting in perfectly aligned seats.
But, don't concerts and sporting events do the same thing? Or school classes?
Yeah, I remember Donnie once said that the greatest thing God ever did was the giving of holy spirit on Pentecost. Then he said that the second greatest thing God ever did was PFAL. Well, I'm sure glad *I* took it.
And I don't want to feel better about that line. It's a bunch of cult BS.
It reduces people from being living and breathing souls to being butts sitting in perfectly aligned seats.
It reduces the Gospel from being truth to being a sales tool.
quote: It reduces people from being living and breathing souls to being butts sitting in perfectly aligned seats.
But, don't concerts and sporting events do the same thing? Or school classes?
Ah, no. That's because: 1) The preceeding sentence gave the context before someone
removed it to remove part of the meaning- leaving it only about people lined up
in stringed chairs, which is NOT what the sentence BEFORE nor the sentence AFTER
said.
"IT REDUCES THE GOSPEL FROM BEING TRUTH TO BEING A SALES TOOL."
2) Having said that, concerts and sporting events don"t reduce people to anything.
The attendees are at an event to be entertained, and accept that this entertainment
depends partly on them not ruining the entertainment of others-which means they
can't drown EVERYTHING out, and should stay to their seats.
And based on the average concert, that doesn't work very well....
School classes involve similar principles, but also reinforce conformity on the young,
depending on who you ask. Some people WOULD say the imposed groupthink in a class
is related to the groupthink in pfal. Those people would complain EQUALLY.
Yeah, I remember Donnie once said that the greatest thing God ever did was the giving of holy spirit on Pentecost. Then he said that the second greatest thing God ever did was PFAL. Well, I'm sure glad *I* took it.
I'm glad I took it, too.
But I think now the idea that it was "the second greatest thing God ever did" is silly.
If you'd have asked me THEN, I would have said that was overstating the case.
And I was a fan of it then.
Were you trying to suggest that statement was correct?
If not, that's definitely the relation you posted.
But, don't concerts and sporting events do the same thing? Or school classes?
I've never seen perfectly straight chairs in school classes. Even when I arrived early. No crew with string and rulers, carefully measuring the exact placement for said chairs, or even desks for that matter..
Never had to wait outside the room while the crew carefully re-strung the chairs between classes either..
I think that was largely the selling point of pfal. Where it lacked substance, slave labor was used to polish it and give it an appearance of elegance. Refreshments set with the same precision as the chairs, finely manicured lawns, grease spots (real ones :) ) cleaned from driveways, parking and greeting personnel, immaculately cleaned house, perfect timing for the start and finish, a PRECISE five minute break.. a "properly attired" CREW.. and not to forget, a precise COST. And yes, chairs set to precision within mere millimeters of "perfection". Everything was carefully honed to give it a personna that the time and money were really worth spending. I don't think the content actually sold it.. it was US. I don't think it could have exactly sold itself.
I musta been nutso..
no wonder I'm so eccentric today..
I remember one class.. everything was set to absolute perfection..
the poor assistant then found a dead squirrel in the toilet, mere minutes before class started..
Ah yes. My lady friend here.. one day, I made a remark about "normal" people. "Normal? Ham, believe me, you are NOT "normal". I love you dearly, but no, other people are "normal". I know "normal". You're not scary, non- normal, but.."
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Tom Strange
Waysider, was this "shill witnessing" a FLO thing?
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frank123lol
Or the best mime giving abs?
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doojable
It was all artificial!
One day I realized that I has started to view people on in terms of their "class taking potential." THAT is using people and I wanted no part of it. I took an immediate vacation from all "witnessing."
Then there was the guilt I felt for asking someone to give up 3 weeks of their time for a class that was on video - or worst - TAPE!
I did the bar thing, the mall thing, the door to door thing...it all sukked!
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frank123lol
Yes,that was finally the straw that broke the camels back,I refused to go door to door,said it was an old wineskin,Well that led to a fight,and I was outta that cult.
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Mike
Hi Ham,
It never occurred to me to try it.
However, in the late 80's I did some talk radio comedy where I developed a Radio Mime bit. Then, a few years ago, I adapted it into two separate stand-up comedy bits. It was fun.
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Ham
Oh yeah.. door to door.. sheesh. I don't think I've told this story to anybody..
I remember going with an "elder" in da church..
the joint said "NO SOLICITING".. big, black letters..
guess who decided to go there.. not the Squirrel. I actually said something about it.. "ya know, it's not REALLY a good idea..
But do the high and mighty elders think da crazy squirrel just might be wight?
noooooooo. So I goes with mr. high and mighty..
sometimes I have this "thing".. call it revelation, call it whatever.. but whatever might be if we continue following this time line is gonna be so nasty, that I see it coming a mile away.. it's a surreal experience.. everything kinda looks blue.. but it's almost like I've witnessed the events before, and I merely watch them occuring in their proper order..
I told the guy.. "two cop cars are gonna pull in here in five minutes. I will be going in one, and you will be going in the other. What do you want to do about it?"
within five minutes.. guess who pulled in the parking lot.. and how many..
So.. we slowly meander off towards the car, acting like we're natives there..
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Ham
mr. "high and mighty" just kinda mumbled something about not being very happy about having to turn and run with his tail between his legs..
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waysider
Nope.
This predated my FLO days.
In FLO, we did "door-to-door" and some "mall witnessing"(not shill---- at least in the twigs I was in.) on witnessing nights.
(We were primarily supposed to use our "9-5" jobs as a vehicle for witnessing, so we really didn't do much evening witnessing. We mainly worked at limb HQ or on limb HQ assignments, such as MANNA, or prison outreach, or special projects like "Foreordained"(Gospel quartet) etc. in the evenings.)
But, since all our "twigs" were closed corporation, we could not bring them to twig with us.
(Not many newbies want to go to twig at 11 pm anyway. Go figure.)
Instead, we turned their names and info(ie: sales leads) over to the believers who were operating twigs in their locale.
They followed up on the "under-shepherding" aspect.
Sometimes the local people ran the classes and sometimes we did if it wasn't too distant.
It was really an impersonal approach.
Once you passed their name(sales lead) on to the local people, you were pretty much out of the picture and had no direct contact with them.
Even if you wanted to, it would have been difficult because we did not have phones in the "houses" and almost all our time was controlled. Plus, you could not leave the complex without specific approval other than to go to your "9-5" or regularly scheduled FLO activities.
There was exception made for Saturday afternoon and evening so you could go into town and get a haircut or do laundry at the laundry-mat, etc.
Still, you could not leave the local area without prior approval.
It was very much a PFAL sales effort.
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Ham
and this was perhaps the one if not only time I have been able to change "history"
it woulda been so.. what do people call it..
pathetic. "Two culties, caught by police trying to molest the upper ups in a community.. "
sheesh..
Ya know.. the guy in the future is often desperately trying to talk with the guy in the past about having done some real stupid ......
OK.. carry on, nothing to see here..
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Mike
Does anyone remember this?
Donnie Fugit taught in the "Witnessing and Undershepherding" class that "The goal of all witnessing is Power For Abundant Living."
That bothered me for a while, and then I finally got it.
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waysider
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I finally "got it" and that bothered me for a while.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the quote from page 2:
Our goal in Witnessing and Undershepherding II Tim. 2:2
The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power for Abundant Living and help them walk on it.
Now here is II Tim. 2:1& 2
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
I am curious to know how that could possible be translated:
Go forth and sell classes.
Indoctrinate the students into our cult dogma.
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frank123lol
I remember,Something to the effect with the police,in the wow days,Witnessiing,cop stopped,
witnessed to him,Even followed up on him at the cop shop,Bring back any memories?
I t just did for me.Another time in ole mississip I was out by myself doing door to door,got
pickup by the cops,said I was tresspassing,Started my spiel,One cop said shutup we have heard
it before.Quit doing it.So I left.
Went to leadership on issue.Was told we dont need tthe attention do not go in that neighborhood again.
So I thought @@ this never witnessed squat for the rest of the year.
Found out the next"ministry year"The cops had one of thier own who was a "way believer"
They had thier "fill of him"
He was out wow at the time I had gotten "picked up".
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Ham
Oh yeah.. I remember that..
hmm. didn't the "believer cop" guy end up being a security guard somewhere?
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doojable
That bothers me NOW!
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Mike
Why didn't it bother you back then, doojable?
It did me, so I dealt with it. It was only after dealing with the tools I had available to me that I started to see it was good and proper. I think if you deal with it from within God's Word you'll feel better.
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doojable
Mike - I didn't hear that line then.
I didn't take that class until I was in rez. So...Donnie Fugit did not teach the class I was in. If I heard that line, it didn't register with me. The fact that I don't remember it shows me that I either never heard it, or I never really believed it.
And I don't want to feel better about that line. It's a bunch of cult BS.
It reduces people from being living and breathing souls to being butts sitting in perfectly aligned seats.
It reduces the Gospel from being truth to being a sales tool.
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Larry N Moore
I looked up the phrase (highlighted in red and couldn't find it in my syllabus. I think I took the class in 1973 or 74. Are you referring to a later edition?
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Eyesopen
I know one of the "cop Believers" here got his tail handed to him by his fellows. When he got out of the hospital (a few weeks, nearly a month later he and his family moved to another city in the state.
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Ham
Wowser.. sounds like they came close to an official fragging..
I don't exactly condone people beating the snot out of people..
but if one should anger a group to take that kind of action.. it may be a wrongful assumption that the person would think it happened because they are a "believer" instead of realizing it was because they were terribly, terribly annoying..
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frank123lol
This guy,he ended up taking over my window cleaning buis I had in Jackson Miss as I was
apprentice corpse and was told to move to the coast of Miss.
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johniam
quote: It reduces people from being living and breathing souls to being butts sitting in perfectly aligned seats.
But, don't concerts and sporting events do the same thing? Or school classes?
Yeah, I remember Donnie once said that the greatest thing God ever did was the giving of holy spirit on Pentecost. Then he said that the second greatest thing God ever did was PFAL. Well, I'm sure glad *I* took it.
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WordWolf
Ah, no. That's because: 1) The preceeding sentence gave the context before someone
removed it to remove part of the meaning- leaving it only about people lined up
in stringed chairs, which is NOT what the sentence BEFORE nor the sentence AFTER
said.
"IT REDUCES THE GOSPEL FROM BEING TRUTH TO BEING A SALES TOOL."
2) Having said that, concerts and sporting events don"t reduce people to anything.
The attendees are at an event to be entertained, and accept that this entertainment
depends partly on them not ruining the entertainment of others-which means they
can't drown EVERYTHING out, and should stay to their seats.
And based on the average concert, that doesn't work very well....
School classes involve similar principles, but also reinforce conformity on the young,
depending on who you ask. Some people WOULD say the imposed groupthink in a class
is related to the groupthink in pfal. Those people would complain EQUALLY.
I'm glad I took it, too.
But I think now the idea that it was "the second greatest thing God ever did" is silly.
If you'd have asked me THEN, I would have said that was overstating the case.
And I was a fan of it then.
Were you trying to suggest that statement was correct?
If not, that's definitely the relation you posted.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
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Ham
I've never seen perfectly straight chairs in school classes. Even when I arrived early. No crew with string and rulers, carefully measuring the exact placement for said chairs, or even desks for that matter..
Never had to wait outside the room while the crew carefully re-strung the chairs between classes either..
I think that was largely the selling point of pfal. Where it lacked substance, slave labor was used to polish it and give it an appearance of elegance. Refreshments set with the same precision as the chairs, finely manicured lawns, grease spots (real ones :) ) cleaned from driveways, parking and greeting personnel, immaculately cleaned house, perfect timing for the start and finish, a PRECISE five minute break.. a "properly attired" CREW.. and not to forget, a precise COST. And yes, chairs set to precision within mere millimeters of "perfection". Everything was carefully honed to give it a personna that the time and money were really worth spending. I don't think the content actually sold it.. it was US. I don't think it could have exactly sold itself.
I musta been nutso..
no wonder I'm so eccentric today..
I remember one class.. everything was set to absolute perfection..
the poor assistant then found a dead squirrel in the toilet, mere minutes before class started..
it was pandemonium..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Ham
Ah yes. My lady friend here.. one day, I made a remark about "normal" people. "Normal? Ham, believe me, you are NOT "normal". I love you dearly, but no, other people are "normal". I know "normal". You're not scary, non- normal, but.."
I laughed for about two days..
who can argue with reality..
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