So so so sorry for this situation with your dad. I'l be praying for God to give you strength during this time.
TWI teaching though, was that the ''Soul'' is part of the personality. What makes you , you. Breath life.
"Spirit'' is the gift that goes back to God when you die.
Now, this is what they teach and what was taught.
As far as my opinion goes, if your dad as incurred brain damage, that would not have anything to do with his spirit or even his ''soul'' for that matter. Nothing else takes it's place. He's just got physical issues that took away his ability to remember, or think clear etc......... the ''brain'' (pysically) is not the soul. Think of it as a leg or heart, or stomache.........if those things were not working, you wouldn't be having issue with it. (I understand its bigger in terms of how he will be....) He is not dead. He needs you to still be there for him like God would want you to.
I would'nt worry about how it will all turn out in heaven. God, is GIGANTIC in all ways. Beyond our human comprehension. So, we don't have to figure out the HOW, just know that He will remember your dad, and how he was.
Hang in, hoping he fares well - he certainly can although it might take a little time.
There's only one of your Dad, period. Changes in his awareness, personality - he's still (1) Dad.
Think of it as how he's probably changed over the years, from the way he was when he was
15, to the way he is now. Probably a lot different. Still the same (1) Dad.
It's one of the incredibly wonderful things about life that's often missed and yet points to a very unique design of life - there's only one "you". No repeats. :) Or duplicates. Similar, yes, but never the same, again.
My elderly father, several times when he was in the hospital, had dementia. I loved him the same, he did come back and it had nothing to do with his soul or spirit.
The brain is an organ, like a heart or kidney - it can get damaged. Your father will be himself, but with a damaged brain. He will not be possessed, he will not be a "husk" and no one else will be walking around in him, or whatever TWI would have you believe.
He is simply your father with a damaged brain.
Please don't "spiritualize" what has happened to your father. If you pray, you need to pray for physical healing of his brain.
Hang in, hoping he fares well - he certainly can although it might take a little time.
There's only one of your Dad, period. Changes in his awareness, personality - he's still (1) Dad.
Think of it as how he's probably changed over the years, from the way he was when he was
15, to the way he is now. Probably a lot different. Still the same (1) Dad.
It's one of the incredibly wonderful things about life that's often missed and yet points to a very unique design of life - there's only one "you". No repeats. :) Or duplicates. Similar, yes, but never the same, again.
Ah - now that makes sense. It would just be another stage in his life. =)
My elderly father, several times when he was in the hospital, had dementia. I loved him the same, he did come back and it had nothing to do with his soul or spirit.
The brain is an organ, like a heart or kidney - it can get damaged. Your father will be himself, but with a damaged brain. He will not be possessed, he will not be a "husk" and no one else will be walking around in him, or whatever TWI would have you believe.
He is simply your father with a damaged brain.
Please don't "spiritualize" what has happened to your father. If you pray, you need to pray for physical healing of his brain.
Read Bliss' post above, she has great insight.
Pray for him and love him.
Hm, what a great example. I remember someone in twi having a relative with dementia. Her mother used to be a wonderful woman and suddenly she was horrible and uncontrolable. She was having lots of problems and needed comfort... someone told them that it wasn't their mom anymore. I guess I'm still having to unlearn some things.
Even if my dad was just a baby on the inside again - I think I'd like to make sure he would learn how to speak and read again if I could help it. Everyone keeps talking about putting him into a nursing home if that's the case. It seems sad for someone who worked so hard... I doubt he would get any mental stimulation at all. It's a little daunting because he is a really big guy and I'd be home by myself... but it's hard to think of him being stuck in a home by himself. =(
(((((NERO))))
So so so sorry for this situation with your dad. I'l be praying for God to give you strength during this time.
TWI teaching though, was that the ''Soul'' is part of the personality. What makes you , you. Breath life.
"Spirit'' is the gift that goes back to God when you die.
There was very little consistancy with what they taught - so I believe you. I was taught the soul was breath life (like with your lungs) and your spirit was your personality. Some people were taught to be sexual deviants while people like me were told almost any kind of sex was a sin. Blah! Drives me nuts!
for what it may be worth, here are some FAQs on communicating with people in comas, and other altered states, on the website of my friends, Ann and Stan, who have been working in these fields for a long long time.
My elderly father, several times when he was in the hospital, had dementia. I loved him the same, he did come back and it had nothing to do with his soul or spirit.
The brain is an organ, like a heart or kidney - it can get damaged. Your father will be himself, but with a damaged brain. He will not be possessed, he will not be a "husk" and no one else will be walking around in him, or whatever TWI would have you believe.
He is simply your father with a damaged brain.
Please don't "spiritualize" what has happened to your father. If you pray, you need to pray for physical healing of his brain.
Read Bliss' post above, she has great insight.
Pray for him and love him.
The best points were already said.
Pray for healing for your father. Science doesn't think there's a way to heal brain tissue/nerve tissue,
but science is still learning. (I know stem cells have been used to regrow nerve tissue-which is "impossible",
so they know they don't have all the answers yet.)
Doctors also know that sometimes healing that shouldn't work happens anyway.
I took a severe head injury some years ago. I have all my memories, and, I think, I can function better
than some people who never took a head injury. I DID have a lot of people praying for me, which may have
made THE difference.
A lot of people who take head injuries are very much the same person after it. Some of them have difficulty
expressing it afterwards, but they still feel the same and think the same. Some have shown some personality
differences, either mild ones or less so. Doesn't mean they're a different person. You can pray for his
healing, and KEEP praying while he recovers. The difference you make may be dramatic.
it is true brain damage can change a personality , to the degree you may not "know" his behaviours or reactions or likes or dislikes anymore.
I worked with teens who had been in car accidents or skiing or trampoline accidents that had very harsh injuries to the brain . many of their parents walked away from any relationship with them out of the grief of believing they are not the child they raised .
so it is a choice some may make.
i think it is ok and up to the person and how much they can handle.
the brain is not "just an organ" it is a miricle organ that the medical community knows very little about.
I know folks with brain injuries that have good days and they remember the past they are "normal" by a standard set by the medical community. then the next they are angry hostile and do not know who anyone is.
the brain can and does heal and make new paths to rehab its self. the rehab available today is absoluting outstanding and i have personality witnessed full score stroke victims with total inability recover 100% within just WEEKS!
honestly the rehab today is that good.
it depends on the type length and many factors that contribrute to how the brain was/ is damaged.
Drs tend to give out the worse case information due to liability and other issues.. wait and see and hope.
if he is so very different you can not handle the stress of caring for him, it is ok , your not alone in that, you will find support and help to care for him and can have a relationship on terms you can handle and be ok with.
i believe that is how your dad would want it to be for you if he was healthy.
my friend was an only child , and she and her husband lived with her parents their entire life in the same home, her mom in her 90's got demented and one morning as my friend called her "mom" the woman slapped her across her face and got very very upset that this women would call her mom.
in her moms mind she was a young girl still a virgin and this woman insulted her and hurt her badly. to call her mom insist she was her mom was not something she could accept.
it hurt my frined deeply , but she understood and then needed to get additional help for her mom . it is ok , dad will still love you and on good days will know and surprise you with his recall.
take one day at a time a situation such as brain injury does not call for a script, find the best rehab you can , and hope he gets well.. but accept him for who he is today , if you can. If you can not and i get that I really do know your not alone and the choice you make will be fine and he will be fine.
I vaguely remember some guy who had gotten prayed for who had been diagnosed with brain damage secondary to drug use. Either visited Limb or was around in Athens, I forget which.
At any rate, his brain cells were actually regenerating as he learned to love and trust God. His memory was returning, and he actually began to speak much more clearly. I think he hung around limb in Ohio for a few weeks, and then went to HQ as a volunteer. Vague memory.
First you plant a seed and before you know it, there's a sprout in its place.
Soon the sprout is replaced with a seedling which is replaced with a plant and so on and so on.
At the end of the season, the plant you see looks nothing like the seed you planted at the start of the season.
But, of course, it is. It's merely changed its appearance and structure.
Hey, now! I'm no botany major but I think you get the gist of it.
So, we are a bit like plants, much different at the end of the season than we were at the start.
Still, we are, in essence, the same plant that started as a seed.
Here is the scripture from which Watered Garden has drawn the inspiration for her "handle":
Isaiah 58:11
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
A few years ago my dad passed away...he was 95 and had a full life. I had the distinct privilege of caring for him (with the wonderful help of my niece, who's a nurse) for the last 6 months of his life.
He had dementia for those 6 months...all my life, my dad had been a pillar of strength...a wonderful provider, a great sense of humor, very intelligent...he was the one we all looked to for advice...and now, I found myself caring for a man who was but a shadow of who he once was...it was hard...but I learned something that was very powerful...
It was the cycle of life. He had taken care of me when I was a boy...and now it was my turn. An opprotunity to do for him what he had done for me...and when he finally passed, something inside of me changed forever...I suppose you could call it a rite of passage.
No matter what disabilities inflict the aged, they are still themselves...it's them. We are not our intellects...we are more that...and we have the capacity, with God's help, to rise up to these challanges with unconditional love and the hope for a deeper understanding.
Nero - This is a hard time for you and my prayers are with you.
My mother died of a brain tumor. For over a year she was in a coma but she could still hear. My grandmother would hold her hand and ask her questions. Mom would squeeze once for "Yes" and twice for "No.' She knew who was in the room even though her eyes weren't opened.
She had little hair because of various surgeries. Yet, she was MOM. When she lay there in her bed, quiet and seemingly sleeping, all I could think about was that that was MY Mom. All my memories of her, all her love, all her wise words - they filled me and continue to speak to me to this day. As I looked at her lying there - all I could remember was the vibrant, intelligent woman that had raised me up to that point.
Now my dad is also suffering from either Altzheimer's or what they are calling "mini strokes." He asks 3 times in a conversation how many girls I have, their names, and their ages. BUT he's still MY DAD.
Forget about TWI. Forget about soul, spirit, and all that stuff. Just love your DAD.
How can he be a shell if just one look at him fills you with fond memories? Shells are empty and require filling. His presence has filled your life and will continue to do so.
Thanks for all of the kind words guys - and thanks for praying for my dad. It's really been helping me to see others opinions so I can change what has been drilled into me for years.
I'm really hoping that at this point he will be able to make it. I wish he would wake up - at this point I don't care anymore. I just want him to have a shot at life again.
I know my family members are dealing with this in their own way... but some of the ideas that have been getting tossed around by my sis are frightening. My sister is talking like he is already dead or that we should give up - she took my pictures I gave him (at my 18th b-day and then my wedding) so her husband could make a photo CD so everyone could have pictures of him. She says he looks uncomfortable and she wishes they would just take the tubes out. She also said he would be barking at us for moping around (which he wouldn't). I understand she is just grieving in her own way and I love her... and it's not like I haven't faced the posibility of him dying myself... but she is freaking me out.
Shouldn't he be given a month before it's doomsday?
Everyone keeps saying he wouldn't want to live if he didn't know who he was. I don't think so! What happens if it takes him a couple years to rememeber? Wouldn't it be worth it? I know how hard he worked to give us a good life - some people in my fam think that he shouldn't have to deal with this... but shouldn't we be working just as hard to give him a good life too?
Also...
My dad has no insurance - so I've been worried about what kind of care he might recieve now. I talked with my boss the other day and he said that it just depends on what kind of insurance we have... and we don't - and how long he might remain on the ventalator might depend on that? Let's not forget about rehab! =( I'm really worried about my dad now.
After the hospital stay, they will ask if you want to release him for either a nursing home, or rehab. If he has no insurance, Medicare should pick up the rehab tab. But, and believe me here, take it if they offer it!!!!!
You need to talk to the hospital social worker ASAP. They are extremely helpful and will recommend places, whether its rehab or nursing, and will talk to the facilities and get him a bed there. The ambulance will transport him over.
It is hard when our parents get old.
Remember, they now become the child and we become the parent. It is truly now our turn to take care of them.
As far as pulling the plug - tell your sister - not so fast - its amazing with rehab or nursing how they can recover. We thought my father was dead at least twice - he wasn't going to make it, and lo and behold, after a couple of weeks he was up.
Do not dread the nursing home. They are not what was available when our parents grew up.
It is just a fact of life. If you cannot care for them - as you are not a nurse or a doctor - eventually it gets to a point where they need care beyond what you can give. Most nursing homes with the now stringent state regulations are quite good. You have no idea how many meds, bathing, diaper changing, etc. he will need - it can get confusing and overwhelming.
If he comes around, you must get a lawyer and get his Will, Power of Attorney and Medical living will drawn up ASAP. There are lawyers who will come to his bedside. You are already arguing with other family members about "what he would want." He must tell you. The hospital will not do "what he would want." My father had a "do not resusitate" order. You need to find out what he wants and have in a legal document. Someone also must have power of attorney to do his bills, finances, etc.
Older people will surprise you, you may not like seeing him this way, but it is reality and what happens to humans as they age.
Stand strong, take charge, tell sis to knock it off - he's not dead yet. Talk to the hospital social worker, find out how things work and go with her recommendations - trust me, they've dealt with thousands of situations. Learn from this. God will get him situated in a good situation.
You also need to tour and go see any places she recommends for him. I did, then told her which one to send him to when the time came.
Welcome to the new world of parental health care - it may seem overwhelming, but just take it one day at a time.
(((Nero))) I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this.
My friends Mom suffered from alzheimers for years. She was completely oblivious to everyone and everything that she had ever known....it was so easy to write her off as already gone. Every once in a great while though, her Mom would become lucid, and be the same woman before the affliction set in. That was a whole lot tougher to deal with than just consoling ones self with...oh well they aren`t in there anyway :(
We had a young man that nearly died in a terrible accident. His brain was severely damaged. Against all odds he survived...he had to relearn everything, eating swallowing, talking, walking....His Mom said that he was a very different young man....he was different...he would never be the same, nor have the mental capacity or abilities he once possessed.....but yet in some indefinable way...intrinsically, deep inside, he was still cory
Maybe family members want to write incapacitated relatives off because it is easier than dealing with the reality of the situation.
He already told us what he wanted actually (thank goodness). He told my mother and she asked my uncle too - so it was confirmed. Basically - if he was going to be a vegetable (for sure) or if it was a sure thing that he was going to have to live at the hospital (like he couldn't live without being tied to machines even if he was awake) - that he didn't want to be brought back if he died.
But he's not a vegetable (as far as we know). He's also not totally reliant on machines - he has sleep apniea (can't spell!) so I think that's why he needs the breathing tubes since he is in a state of sleep right now. He's also not... dead. O_o And he won't be dead until he is dead.
Thank goodness for my uncle and mom - I just talked to them this morning and they agree with me that he should be given time. Especially my uncle! Thank goodness for my uncle! Whew! At least the two people who matter (who make the choices) are in agreement and they are being level headed.
I think the "what my dad would want" is really what some other people would want because they can't deal. I can't deal either... but I want him to have a chance - you know?
It's okay I guess - because they are having to deal with it their own way?
Thanks Sun - for telling me about the nursing homes. I do keep thinking about those horrible places that our grandparents had to look forward to. =( I really hope medicare takes care of rehab - and believe me - we will take it! =D My mom is going to work on getting him disability right now.
Rascal - probably so. I think my sister is having a hard time dealing with this and I really feel bad for her. I know him dying has crossed my mind. I am right there with her too - it's like we are in limbo right with him. He's not dead - but he's not awake either. I'm just not going nuts and grieving for his death just yet. I'm grieving because he was hurt I don't know what is going to happen.
Maybe it's easier to think he's dead - because then she can grieve for his death... not this up and down thing I'm going through.
I just wish she wouldn't write him off just yet...
But I also don't feel comfortable telling her how to feel. I think she is dealing with this right now in the best way she can... which might be the worst way - but she's doing what she can. Just a few days ago I was very angry about this whole thing and I had one of my twi friends tell me to "get over myself" and let go of the hate. O_o It was so incredibly hurtful - especially when my dad isn't awake. I can't imagine doing that to my own sister when she needs me to be there for her... even if she says crazy things. This is no time for reproof.
I'm not sure either... maybe my sister is just saying this stuff because she can't think of anything else to say? I don't know everything that's in her heart.
Maybe I can try to comfort her and maybe I can try to get her to think about the possibility of dad being okay.
you've gotten some great advice and ideas on this board, especially the hospice information. I'm with the people who say he's your dad, now and as long as he lives, no matter what state he's in when he wakes up. relationships adjust. thank God for your mom and uncle!
one other thing that I thought of was both Jesus and Lazarus. both were dead (if you're a bible believer) and without breath, for extended periods of time. I read about a little girl who was pronounced dead, then for no reason started breathing a half hour later. people don't lose anything that makes them who they are by being resuscitated. brain damage leaves memories and skills inaccessible sometimes and can change personalities, but the person's soul and spirit hasn't been replaced, just the expression of it may be altered.
But I also don't feel comfortable telling her how to feel. I think she is dealing with this right now in the best way she can... which might be the worst way - but she's doing what she can. Just a few days ago I was very angry about this whole thing and I had one of my twi friends tell me to "get over myself" and let go of the hate. O_o It was so incredibly hurtful - especially when my dad isn't awake. I can't imagine doing that to my own sister when she needs me to be there for her... even if she says crazy things. This is no time for reproof.
damn straight! I got angry just reading this... how dare your friend judge you like that! this all sounds incredibly stressful and friends should be there for support.
Your dad is your dad and always will be no matter what happens to his brain, personality or memory. I wonder sometimes where TWI gets the b.s. they teach. Compassion and Love are certainly two things greatly missing from their vast library of regurgitated teachings, especially the practical application of said teachings. Lord knows the examples provided by leadership do nothing to help folks see how to love and comfort someone.
A friend of mine while I was in TWI had an abortion because the child would have been born with Down's Sydrome. It was a late term abortion so it was not only painful but extremely traumatic for the woman. Some of us had wanted to take some casseroles, cards and comfort to her but we were told not to contact her at all and that she wanted to be left alone until she was ready to contact folks. :( I later found out she was desperate for someone to cry and commiserate with. She had no idea that we were forbidden from seeing her and our absence and silence just added to her pain and confusion.
I'm so sorry for what you and your family are going through. Everyone else has posted much wiser words than I could ever express, but I want you to know that you and your family are in my prayers. Continue to believe in your dad's recovery. The human body and God's providence are amazing.
damn straight! I got angry just reading this... how dare your friend judge you like that! this all sounds incredibly stressful and friends should be there for support.
Seriously! I told her I didn't appriciate her kind of help (in a very angry sort of way) and unfriended her. We talk on a friend link page. I really couldn't deal with her acting like that - especially right now.
Unfortunately I didn't block her so she sent me letters until I did block her.
She said some fun stuff in her letters like:
"i know that you probably hate me and every one else who is in twi and or who loves god,"
-Which I never said... which she has thought before and no matter how many times I say "I don't hate you or everyone in twi or hate everyone who loves God" she won't listen.
"and sometimes help can be a little hurtful"
-To excuse the way she treated me.
"i am very hurt that you do not want to talk to me because of my beliefs"
-I never even discussed beliefs with her while this was happening - nor she. She just told me to "get over myself" O_o Unless those are her beliefs.
P.S. Who the hell starts this kind of thing when your friend's dad is in the hospital? Like I have to deal with her weird crap and utterly insane insecurities while this is going on?
For some reason I still love her - but I just can't do this anymore.
I think my sister is having a hard time dealing with this and I really feel bad for her. I know him dying has crossed my mind. I am right there with her too - it's like we are in limbo right with him. He's not dead - but he's not awake either. I'm just not going nuts and grieving for his death just yet. I'm grieving because he was hurt I don't know what is going to happen.
Nero, my thoughts are with you... and I hope this doesn't come across 'wrong'... regardless of which way this goes, he will always live in your heart, always.
I wonder sometimes where TWI gets the b.s. they teach. Compassion and Love are certainly two things greatly missing from their vast library of regurgitated teachings, especially the practical application of said teachings. Lord knows the examples provided by leadership do nothing to help folks see how to love and comfort someone.
Don't I know it? The TWI theme song for people going through anything from a stubbed toe to a death in the family would be "Get Over It" by the Eagles.
I feel sorry for them really - because most of them don't know any better - at least my friend because she was born into this horror film. We were taught to be loving... but do it in such a hateful and cruel way that you might as well not have said anything at all. Ugh.
It makes me cringe to think of what I've might have said to people before... but simply cannot remember. I hope I never did that.
Nero, my thoughts are with you... and I hope this doesn't come across 'wrong'... regardless of which way this goes, he will always live in your heart, always.
It didn't come across as wrong. It's okay. Thank you for being so sweet.
Your friend sounds like one of Job's miserable comforters - you don't need her help or "comfort" right now.
I would tell her I still love her, but she adds nothing to the situation right now, you have enough on your plate, and will talk to her later when you are ready.
As I said, my father died this Sept. 22nd. He had been in the full care nursing home for almost a year. The nurses there were just wonderful, plus his doctor. Later, in the final stage, when he needed more pain meds Hospice came in and were wonderful and helped him die peacefully. Hospice is just awesome.
This is a new journey for you, your mom and uncle. It may seem weird at first, but its just another normal stage of life. I adored his nursing home nurses and so did dad, especially the "cute blond." They loved the old guy. The nursing homes are modern, bright - not those awful places our grandparents dealt with.
In fact after he died, a couple of weeks later I went back, brought the nurses a card, thanked them for everything and we all hugged. It was great closure. I last saw them the day he died. They were right there with him too. I needed to go back and thank them and have closure. We forget, they grow attached to the old folks too! Its nice to let them know how much they are appreciated.
It sounds great that you, your mom and uncle are in agreement. Your sister is dealing with it in her limited TWI fashion. She may find there is no foundation there for her. As long as you and your mom and uncle are united, I wouldn't worry about what my sister may try to do. You be your father's protector now, as he was yours once.
P.S. Who the hell starts this kind of thing when your friend's dad is in the hospital? Like I have to deal with her weird crap and utterly insane insecurities while this is going on?
For some reason I still love her - but I just can't do this anymore.
I think I would feel the same way in your shoes. it seems kind of demanding, selfish and obsessive to send multiple letters trying to justify your position when a friend is going through a rough situation!
I think I would have sent something along the lines this before blocking her:
dear friend,
I'm going through some stressful times and unfortunately, am not in need of a miserable comforter at this time. if I do find that I need to be condemned at any time in the future, I'll make sure I let you know that your skills are required. in the meantime, like Job did for his friends, I will pray for you because I do love you, and perhaps God will be able to deliver you from your hard-heartedness.
sincerely, etc.
(not saying do this, just wrote it hoping it would make you at least smile... although praying for your miserable comforter, I'm told, is a good idea, I'm more likely to damn them to hell.)
my goodness, this thread is golden...goes to show, how like in my end-of-life studies, there is a notion that we can trust our own experience in such times...and that our intuition regarding such times of transition are intact after all these millenia.
now for some understatements of the century...
i cant help but offer this...and someone correct me if this is out of place...but as ive been trying to say around here for some time...that while every stage of life is a sort of "small death," the "art of dying" IS the true and practical historic source and common ground of ALL religions. The Bible CANNOT be understood OR applied anywhere near the depths possible without realizing this very very vital context. Moreso than any dogmatic wrestling...the need and desire to die well WAS, IS and WILL BE the most valid context for religion in every millenia. Hospice and grief related work is the most essential and useful role for ALL religious thought, and at the root of any calling to be a minister. And its not hard to see what happens to a religious group (like TWI) that somehow denies or rejects this kind of treatment. All our bad religious examples of history and present are the result of this grave mistake...the doctrinal "deal-breaker." This includes the neglected role of aging becoming elders...and how the generations are split from each other moreso than ever. My daily prayer is that every denomination and facet of Christianity wakes up and rereads its Bibles with these kinds of things in mind, and maybe begins to restore the very living usefulness to religious history and the name of Christ.
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bliss
(((((NERO))))
So so so sorry for this situation with your dad. I'l be praying for God to give you strength during this time.
TWI teaching though, was that the ''Soul'' is part of the personality. What makes you , you. Breath life.
"Spirit'' is the gift that goes back to God when you die.
Now, this is what they teach and what was taught.
As far as my opinion goes, if your dad as incurred brain damage, that would not have anything to do with his spirit or even his ''soul'' for that matter. Nothing else takes it's place. He's just got physical issues that took away his ability to remember, or think clear etc......... the ''brain'' (pysically) is not the soul. Think of it as a leg or heart, or stomache.........if those things were not working, you wouldn't be having issue with it. (I understand its bigger in terms of how he will be....) He is not dead. He needs you to still be there for him like God would want you to.
I would'nt worry about how it will all turn out in heaven. God, is GIGANTIC in all ways. Beyond our human comprehension. So, we don't have to figure out the HOW, just know that He will remember your dad, and how he was.
I hope I helped a little,
all the best to you ,
bliss
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socks
Hang in, hoping he fares well - he certainly can although it might take a little time.
There's only one of your Dad, period. Changes in his awareness, personality - he's still (1) Dad.
Think of it as how he's probably changed over the years, from the way he was when he was
15, to the way he is now. Probably a lot different. Still the same (1) Dad.
It's one of the incredibly wonderful things about life that's often missed and yet points to a very unique design of life - there's only one "you". No repeats. :) Or duplicates. Similar, yes, but never the same, again.
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polar bear
So sorry to hear about your dad. Your post is fine as far as I'm concerned.
We will all be praying for you and your dad.
God is big, and he will rewrard those who have trusted in Him big.
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Sunesis
My elderly father, several times when he was in the hospital, had dementia. I loved him the same, he did come back and it had nothing to do with his soul or spirit.
The brain is an organ, like a heart or kidney - it can get damaged. Your father will be himself, but with a damaged brain. He will not be possessed, he will not be a "husk" and no one else will be walking around in him, or whatever TWI would have you believe.
He is simply your father with a damaged brain.
Please don't "spiritualize" what has happened to your father. If you pray, you need to pray for physical healing of his brain.
Read Bliss' post above, she has great insight.
Pray for him and love him.
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Nero
Ah - now that makes sense. It would just be another stage in his life. =)
Hm, what a great example. I remember someone in twi having a relative with dementia. Her mother used to be a wonderful woman and suddenly she was horrible and uncontrolable. She was having lots of problems and needed comfort... someone told them that it wasn't their mom anymore. I guess I'm still having to unlearn some things.
Even if my dad was just a baby on the inside again - I think I'd like to make sure he would learn how to speak and read again if I could help it. Everyone keeps talking about putting him into a nursing home if that's the case. It seems sad for someone who worked so hard... I doubt he would get any mental stimulation at all. It's a little daunting because he is a really big guy and I'd be home by myself... but it's hard to think of him being stuck in a home by himself. =(
There was very little consistancy with what they taught - so I believe you. I was taught the soul was breath life (like with your lungs) and your spirit was your personality. Some people were taught to be sexual deviants while people like me were told almost any kind of sex was a sin. Blah! Drives me nuts!
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sirguessalot
my prayers are with you and yours, Nero
for what it may be worth, here are some FAQs on communicating with people in comas, and other altered states, on the website of my friends, Ann and Stan, who have been working in these fields for a long long time.
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WordWolf
The best points were already said.
Pray for healing for your father. Science doesn't think there's a way to heal brain tissue/nerve tissue,
but science is still learning. (I know stem cells have been used to regrow nerve tissue-which is "impossible",
so they know they don't have all the answers yet.)
Doctors also know that sometimes healing that shouldn't work happens anyway.
I took a severe head injury some years ago. I have all my memories, and, I think, I can function better
than some people who never took a head injury. I DID have a lot of people praying for me, which may have
made THE difference.
A lot of people who take head injuries are very much the same person after it. Some of them have difficulty
expressing it afterwards, but they still feel the same and think the same. Some have shown some personality
differences, either mild ones or less so. Doesn't mean they're a different person. You can pray for his
healing, and KEEP praying while he recovers. The difference you make may be dramatic.
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pond
it is true brain damage can change a personality , to the degree you may not "know" his behaviours or reactions or likes or dislikes anymore.
I worked with teens who had been in car accidents or skiing or trampoline accidents that had very harsh injuries to the brain . many of their parents walked away from any relationship with them out of the grief of believing they are not the child they raised .
so it is a choice some may make.
i think it is ok and up to the person and how much they can handle.
the brain is not "just an organ" it is a miricle organ that the medical community knows very little about.
I know folks with brain injuries that have good days and they remember the past they are "normal" by a standard set by the medical community. then the next they are angry hostile and do not know who anyone is.
the brain can and does heal and make new paths to rehab its self. the rehab available today is absoluting outstanding and i have personality witnessed full score stroke victims with total inability recover 100% within just WEEKS!
honestly the rehab today is that good.
it depends on the type length and many factors that contribrute to how the brain was/ is damaged.
Drs tend to give out the worse case information due to liability and other issues.. wait and see and hope.
if he is so very different you can not handle the stress of caring for him, it is ok , your not alone in that, you will find support and help to care for him and can have a relationship on terms you can handle and be ok with.
i believe that is how your dad would want it to be for you if he was healthy.
my friend was an only child , and she and her husband lived with her parents their entire life in the same home, her mom in her 90's got demented and one morning as my friend called her "mom" the woman slapped her across her face and got very very upset that this women would call her mom.
in her moms mind she was a young girl still a virgin and this woman insulted her and hurt her badly. to call her mom insist she was her mom was not something she could accept.
it hurt my frined deeply , but she understood and then needed to get additional help for her mom . it is ok , dad will still love you and on good days will know and surprise you with his recall.
take one day at a time a situation such as brain injury does not call for a script, find the best rehab you can , and hope he gets well.. but accept him for who he is today , if you can. If you can not and i get that I really do know your not alone and the choice you make will be fine and he will be fine.
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Watered Garden
I vaguely remember some guy who had gotten prayed for who had been diagnosed with brain damage secondary to drug use. Either visited Limb or was around in Athens, I forget which.
At any rate, his brain cells were actually regenerating as he learned to love and trust God. His memory was returning, and he actually began to speak much more clearly. I think he hung around limb in Ohio for a few weeks, and then went to HQ as a volunteer. Vague memory.
Prayer works. I'll be praying for your dad.
WG
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waysider
Hiya, Nero
Have you ever had a garden?
First you plant a seed and before you know it, there's a sprout in its place.
Soon the sprout is replaced with a seedling which is replaced with a plant and so on and so on.
At the end of the season, the plant you see looks nothing like the seed you planted at the start of the season.
But, of course, it is. It's merely changed its appearance and structure.
Hey, now! I'm no botany major but I think you get the gist of it.
So, we are a bit like plants, much different at the end of the season than we were at the start.
Still, we are, in essence, the same plant that started as a seed.
Here is the scripture from which Watered Garden has drawn the inspiration for her "handle":
Isaiah 58:11
And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
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GrouchoMarxJr
A few years ago my dad passed away...he was 95 and had a full life. I had the distinct privilege of caring for him (with the wonderful help of my niece, who's a nurse) for the last 6 months of his life.
He had dementia for those 6 months...all my life, my dad had been a pillar of strength...a wonderful provider, a great sense of humor, very intelligent...he was the one we all looked to for advice...and now, I found myself caring for a man who was but a shadow of who he once was...it was hard...but I learned something that was very powerful...
It was the cycle of life. He had taken care of me when I was a boy...and now it was my turn. An opprotunity to do for him what he had done for me...and when he finally passed, something inside of me changed forever...I suppose you could call it a rite of passage.
No matter what disabilities inflict the aged, they are still themselves...it's them. We are not our intellects...we are more that...and we have the capacity, with God's help, to rise up to these challanges with unconditional love and the hope for a deeper understanding.
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doojable
Nero - This is a hard time for you and my prayers are with you.
My mother died of a brain tumor. For over a year she was in a coma but she could still hear. My grandmother would hold her hand and ask her questions. Mom would squeeze once for "Yes" and twice for "No.' She knew who was in the room even though her eyes weren't opened.
She had little hair because of various surgeries. Yet, she was MOM. When she lay there in her bed, quiet and seemingly sleeping, all I could think about was that that was MY Mom. All my memories of her, all her love, all her wise words - they filled me and continue to speak to me to this day. As I looked at her lying there - all I could remember was the vibrant, intelligent woman that had raised me up to that point.
Now my dad is also suffering from either Altzheimer's or what they are calling "mini strokes." He asks 3 times in a conversation how many girls I have, their names, and their ages. BUT he's still MY DAD.
Forget about TWI. Forget about soul, spirit, and all that stuff. Just love your DAD.
How can he be a shell if just one look at him fills you with fond memories? Shells are empty and require filling. His presence has filled your life and will continue to do so.
He will continue to teach you...
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Nero
Thanks for all of the kind words guys - and thanks for praying for my dad. It's really been helping me to see others opinions so I can change what has been drilled into me for years.
I'm really hoping that at this point he will be able to make it. I wish he would wake up - at this point I don't care anymore. I just want him to have a shot at life again.
I know my family members are dealing with this in their own way... but some of the ideas that have been getting tossed around by my sis are frightening. My sister is talking like he is already dead or that we should give up - she took my pictures I gave him (at my 18th b-day and then my wedding) so her husband could make a photo CD so everyone could have pictures of him. She says he looks uncomfortable and she wishes they would just take the tubes out. She also said he would be barking at us for moping around (which he wouldn't). I understand she is just grieving in her own way and I love her... and it's not like I haven't faced the posibility of him dying myself... but she is freaking me out.
Shouldn't he be given a month before it's doomsday?
Everyone keeps saying he wouldn't want to live if he didn't know who he was. I don't think so! What happens if it takes him a couple years to rememeber? Wouldn't it be worth it? I know how hard he worked to give us a good life - some people in my fam think that he shouldn't have to deal with this... but shouldn't we be working just as hard to give him a good life too?
Also...
My dad has no insurance - so I've been worried about what kind of care he might recieve now. I talked with my boss the other day and he said that it just depends on what kind of insurance we have... and we don't - and how long he might remain on the ventalator might depend on that? Let's not forget about rehab! =( I'm really worried about my dad now.
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Sunesis
After the hospital stay, they will ask if you want to release him for either a nursing home, or rehab. If he has no insurance, Medicare should pick up the rehab tab. But, and believe me here, take it if they offer it!!!!!
You need to talk to the hospital social worker ASAP. They are extremely helpful and will recommend places, whether its rehab or nursing, and will talk to the facilities and get him a bed there. The ambulance will transport him over.
It is hard when our parents get old.
Remember, they now become the child and we become the parent. It is truly now our turn to take care of them.
As far as pulling the plug - tell your sister - not so fast - its amazing with rehab or nursing how they can recover. We thought my father was dead at least twice - he wasn't going to make it, and lo and behold, after a couple of weeks he was up.
Do not dread the nursing home. They are not what was available when our parents grew up.
It is just a fact of life. If you cannot care for them - as you are not a nurse or a doctor - eventually it gets to a point where they need care beyond what you can give. Most nursing homes with the now stringent state regulations are quite good. You have no idea how many meds, bathing, diaper changing, etc. he will need - it can get confusing and overwhelming.
If he comes around, you must get a lawyer and get his Will, Power of Attorney and Medical living will drawn up ASAP. There are lawyers who will come to his bedside. You are already arguing with other family members about "what he would want." He must tell you. The hospital will not do "what he would want." My father had a "do not resusitate" order. You need to find out what he wants and have in a legal document. Someone also must have power of attorney to do his bills, finances, etc.
Older people will surprise you, you may not like seeing him this way, but it is reality and what happens to humans as they age.
Stand strong, take charge, tell sis to knock it off - he's not dead yet. Talk to the hospital social worker, find out how things work and go with her recommendations - trust me, they've dealt with thousands of situations. Learn from this. God will get him situated in a good situation.
You also need to tour and go see any places she recommends for him. I did, then told her which one to send him to when the time came.
Welcome to the new world of parental health care - it may seem overwhelming, but just take it one day at a time.
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rascal
(((Nero))) I am so sorry that you are having to deal with this.
My friends Mom suffered from alzheimers for years. She was completely oblivious to everyone and everything that she had ever known....it was so easy to write her off as already gone. Every once in a great while though, her Mom would become lucid, and be the same woman before the affliction set in. That was a whole lot tougher to deal with than just consoling ones self with...oh well they aren`t in there anyway :(
We had a young man that nearly died in a terrible accident. His brain was severely damaged. Against all odds he survived...he had to relearn everything, eating swallowing, talking, walking....His Mom said that he was a very different young man....he was different...he would never be the same, nor have the mental capacity or abilities he once possessed.....but yet in some indefinable way...intrinsically, deep inside, he was still cory
Maybe family members want to write incapacitated relatives off because it is easier than dealing with the reality of the situation.
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Nero
He already told us what he wanted actually (thank goodness). He told my mother and she asked my uncle too - so it was confirmed. Basically - if he was going to be a vegetable (for sure) or if it was a sure thing that he was going to have to live at the hospital (like he couldn't live without being tied to machines even if he was awake) - that he didn't want to be brought back if he died.
But he's not a vegetable (as far as we know). He's also not totally reliant on machines - he has sleep apniea (can't spell!) so I think that's why he needs the breathing tubes since he is in a state of sleep right now. He's also not... dead. O_o And he won't be dead until he is dead.
Thank goodness for my uncle and mom - I just talked to them this morning and they agree with me that he should be given time. Especially my uncle! Thank goodness for my uncle! Whew! At least the two people who matter (who make the choices) are in agreement and they are being level headed.
I think the "what my dad would want" is really what some other people would want because they can't deal. I can't deal either... but I want him to have a chance - you know?
It's okay I guess - because they are having to deal with it their own way?
Thanks Sun - for telling me about the nursing homes. I do keep thinking about those horrible places that our grandparents had to look forward to. =( I really hope medicare takes care of rehab - and believe me - we will take it! =D My mom is going to work on getting him disability right now.
Rascal - probably so. I think my sister is having a hard time dealing with this and I really feel bad for her. I know him dying has crossed my mind. I am right there with her too - it's like we are in limbo right with him. He's not dead - but he's not awake either. I'm just not going nuts and grieving for his death just yet. I'm grieving because he was hurt I don't know what is going to happen.
Maybe it's easier to think he's dead - because then she can grieve for his death... not this up and down thing I'm going through.
I just wish she wouldn't write him off just yet...
But I also don't feel comfortable telling her how to feel. I think she is dealing with this right now in the best way she can... which might be the worst way - but she's doing what she can. Just a few days ago I was very angry about this whole thing and I had one of my twi friends tell me to "get over myself" and let go of the hate. O_o It was so incredibly hurtful - especially when my dad isn't awake. I can't imagine doing that to my own sister when she needs me to be there for her... even if she says crazy things. This is no time for reproof.
I'm not sure either... maybe my sister is just saying this stuff because she can't think of anything else to say? I don't know everything that's in her heart.
Maybe I can try to comfort her and maybe I can try to get her to think about the possibility of dad being okay.
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potato
you've gotten some great advice and ideas on this board, especially the hospice information. I'm with the people who say he's your dad, now and as long as he lives, no matter what state he's in when he wakes up. relationships adjust. thank God for your mom and uncle!
one other thing that I thought of was both Jesus and Lazarus. both were dead (if you're a bible believer) and without breath, for extended periods of time. I read about a little girl who was pronounced dead, then for no reason started breathing a half hour later. people don't lose anything that makes them who they are by being resuscitated. brain damage leaves memories and skills inaccessible sometimes and can change personalities, but the person's soul and spirit hasn't been replaced, just the expression of it may be altered.
damn straight! I got angry just reading this... how dare your friend judge you like that! this all sounds incredibly stressful and friends should be there for support.
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Belle
(((((Nero)))))
Your dad is your dad and always will be no matter what happens to his brain, personality or memory. I wonder sometimes where TWI gets the b.s. they teach.
Compassion and Love are certainly two things greatly missing from their vast library of regurgitated teachings, especially the practical application of said teachings. Lord knows the examples provided by leadership do nothing to help folks see how to love and comfort someone.
A friend of mine while I was in TWI had an abortion because the child would have been born with Down's Sydrome. It was a late term abortion so it was not only painful but extremely traumatic for the woman. Some of us had wanted to take some casseroles, cards and comfort to her but we were told not to contact her at all and that she wanted to be left alone until she was ready to contact folks. :( I later found out she was desperate for someone to cry and commiserate with. She had no idea that we were forbidden from seeing her and our absence and silence just added to her pain and confusion.
I'm so sorry for what you and your family are going through.
Everyone else has posted much wiser words than I could ever express, but I want you to know that you and your family are in my prayers. Continue to believe in your dad's recovery. The human body and God's providence are amazing.
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Nero
Me going a little
:
Seriously! I told her I didn't appriciate her kind of help (in a very angry sort of way) and unfriended her. We talk on a friend link page. I really couldn't deal with her acting like that - especially right now.
Unfortunately I didn't block her so she sent me letters until I did block her.
She said some fun stuff in her letters like:
"i know that you probably hate me and every one else who is in twi and or who loves god,"
-Which I never said... which she has thought before and no matter how many times I say "I don't hate you or everyone in twi or hate everyone who loves God" she won't listen.
"and sometimes help can be a little hurtful"
-To excuse the way she treated me.
"i am very hurt that you do not want to talk to me because of my beliefs"
-I never even discussed beliefs with her while this was happening - nor she. She just told me to "get over myself" O_o Unless those are her beliefs.
P.S. Who the hell starts this kind of thing when your friend's dad is in the hospital? Like I have to deal with her weird crap and utterly insane insecurities while this is going on?
For some reason I still love her - but I just can't do this anymore.
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Tom Strange
Nero, my thoughts are with you... and I hope this doesn't come across 'wrong'... regardless of which way this goes, he will always live in your heart, always.
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Nero
Don't I know it? The TWI theme song for people going through anything from a stubbed toe to a death in the family would be "Get Over It" by the Eagles.
I feel sorry for them really - because most of them don't know any better - at least my friend because she was born into this horror film. We were taught to be loving... but do it in such a hateful and cruel way that you might as well not have said anything at all. Ugh.
It makes me cringe to think of what I've might have said to people before... but simply cannot remember. I hope I never did that.
It didn't come across as wrong. It's okay. Thank you for being so sweet.
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Sunesis
Your friend sounds like one of Job's miserable comforters - you don't need her help or "comfort" right now.
I would tell her I still love her, but she adds nothing to the situation right now, you have enough on your plate, and will talk to her later when you are ready.
As I said, my father died this Sept. 22nd. He had been in the full care nursing home for almost a year. The nurses there were just wonderful, plus his doctor. Later, in the final stage, when he needed more pain meds Hospice came in and were wonderful and helped him die peacefully. Hospice is just awesome.
This is a new journey for you, your mom and uncle. It may seem weird at first, but its just another normal stage of life. I adored his nursing home nurses and so did dad, especially the "cute blond." They loved the old guy. The nursing homes are modern, bright - not those awful places our grandparents dealt with.
In fact after he died, a couple of weeks later I went back, brought the nurses a card, thanked them for everything and we all hugged. It was great closure. I last saw them the day he died. They were right there with him too. I needed to go back and thank them and have closure. We forget, they grow attached to the old folks too! Its nice to let them know how much they are appreciated.
It sounds great that you, your mom and uncle are in agreement. Your sister is dealing with it in her limited TWI fashion. She may find there is no foundation there for her. As long as you and your mom and uncle are united, I wouldn't worry about what my sister may try to do. You be your father's protector now, as he was yours once.
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potato
I think I would feel the same way in your shoes. it seems kind of demanding, selfish and obsessive to send multiple letters trying to justify your position when a friend is going through a rough situation!
I think I would have sent something along the lines this before blocking her:
dear friend,
I'm going through some stressful times and unfortunately, am not in need of a miserable comforter at this time. if I do find that I need to be condemned at any time in the future, I'll make sure I let you know that your skills are required. in the meantime, like Job did for his friends, I will pray for you because I do love you, and perhaps God will be able to deliver you from your hard-heartedness.
sincerely, etc.
(not saying do this, just wrote it hoping it would make you at least smile... although praying for your miserable comforter, I'm told, is a good idea, I'm more likely to damn them to hell.)
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sirguessalot
my goodness, this thread is golden...goes to show, how like in my end-of-life studies, there is a notion that we can trust our own experience in such times...and that our intuition regarding such times of transition are intact after all these millenia.
now for some understatements of the century...
i cant help but offer this...and someone correct me if this is out of place...but as ive been trying to say around here for some time...that while every stage of life is a sort of "small death," the "art of dying" IS the true and practical historic source and common ground of ALL religions. The Bible CANNOT be understood OR applied anywhere near the depths possible without realizing this very very vital context. Moreso than any dogmatic wrestling...the need and desire to die well WAS, IS and WILL BE the most valid context for religion in every millenia. Hospice and grief related work is the most essential and useful role for ALL religious thought, and at the root of any calling to be a minister. And its not hard to see what happens to a religious group (like TWI) that somehow denies or rejects this kind of treatment. All our bad religious examples of history and present are the result of this grave mistake...the doctrinal "deal-breaker." This includes the neglected role of aging becoming elders...and how the generations are split from each other moreso than ever. My daily prayer is that every denomination and facet of Christianity wakes up and rereads its Bibles with these kinds of things in mind, and maybe begins to restore the very living usefulness to religious history and the name of Christ.
I'll stop there.
in grace and grit...
Todd
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