Well, Christ, as the Son of God, was way above the religious leaders of his day.
Darn right they called him Rabbi.
So, you think Jesus was no different than a Reverend and/or Doctor today? Gee, he was just another "teacher."
Is he really your Saviour, have you made him Lord in your life? Or is he just another in a myriad of nice teachers or prophets with nice words - nice guy, no one special.
Please, because you have given yourself the title "Reverend" - don't compare yourself to Christ.
Bias? No my concern came from the original poster of this thread who posted a link to some snippets of what journalists purportedly investigated about Myers. Some of these snippets is plain yellow journalism. The assumptions of some were that when they 'saw' a woman in a wheelchair writing a check to the ministry, the inference was that she must be poor and unable to even pay her utility bills, or her medical bills and probably was living on the street type attitude. Where is the documentation for such assumptions?
The fact that donations are openly solicited on the home page is quite interesting and may be somewhat telling.
It appears she is after a piece of the same pie that Meyers is feasting upon.
I don't remember ever meeting you....I believe I've only posted some 20x and for you to have such wondrous inside knowledge of me is astounding....
I wonder if the books are open. I bet not.
It is to my understanding that all NFP board meetings are open should one wish to attend to hear the financials. You are welcome. We just had one...so I guess you'll have to wait for the next one.
The About "US" page only lists one person. Jan*** Rob******, yet it appears to be a one horse(mare?)show.
She names herself as a Reverend. It would be interesting to know where and by whom she was ordained.
My other directors who are also ministers did not wish to be named and therefore I respected their requests.
The mission seems to be a noble cause, but then again, so does Joyce Meyer's.
But if that is what floats your boat, knock yourself out. ... Just keep it outta my face, ok?
Dont worry about it too much Garth. If some nutcase cultists grabs you and attempts brainwashing? Well if you have a friend like me, Abi, Bramble and Belle, all you have to do is call out we will fetch you back and deprogram you.
I was thinking of starting a thread in the political heading. I do so much enjoy your views. If I start one I will let you know. Perhaps under politics we can discuss less digressing things. Anyway, have a good one.
Threads like this reinforce for me reasons why leaving Chrisitnanity for a pagan faith was so appealing to me. Money, power, big groups...I pefer the quiet of my own hearth and home, the quietness of a simple meditiaion, a lit candle, a personal communion...
Doesnt this leave you feeling isolated and seperated from almost everybody.? Since I too am by and large a loner, healthy sceptism does leave one isolated no? I mean, it doesn't matter what area of peoples views you are talking about. There are a few nutcase Democrats and Republicans as well. Their are a few nutcase people in everyarea of views. If everytime we find a few in one area of belief we disregard the whole, dont we kind of limit our access to the good? As there are some good Democrats and Republicans as well? (I am NOT saying Joyce is a nutcase, but she does have some issues) Chances are there are some nutcase Wiccans as well?
An old man when I was a kid once said your lucky if you find five good friends in a lifetime. I think he was right.
Goey: I think that Christian minitries should hold themselves to a higher standard than secular busninesses. It is not so much an issue of "is it illegal" than it is one of "does it please God". Christian ministries should not only obey the law, they should also strive to please God - (assuming that God is actually involved)
Goey: I think that churches should be fully transparant to ALL , especially if they are claiming that by tithing to them, it will be multiplied back to the giver. These ministries are recruiting "secular jerks" and thier cash so I think the "secular jerks" should know where the money goes. What good reason could they have for not being fully transparant? I think I know. On the other hand, detailed financial information is readily available on any publically traded corporation, so I don't get your point in that area.
Detailed? When my mutual funds send me their annual report, it comes as 5 color pie charts showing bland %'s, if it does have any further break down, it doesn't reveal if the CEO's bought suits with company money, how many bottles of champagne were written off as business expenses et al.
Goey Again: We are not talling about mutual funds are we? That is totally irrelevant to my point above and to what I was saying. (Strawman argument) I said "publicly traded corporation", didn't I? -- We can hardly compare a mutual fund made up of many different entities with a single corporation can we? Of course not. Apples and oranges. However, FYI - The Edgar Database is open to all who want to look at detailed finances of publically traded corporations.
Goey: And I would add, please don't overly defend them either if you don't have an inside view. Since you don't know Meyer's salary or how much she has personally gained from the donations she solicits, you would certainly not have an inside view. Given the track record of TV ministries in the past, I would be reluctant to run to their defense without some really good info. I don't really think they deserve the benefit if the doubt. Been too many scams.
BC: What I was defending, is a ministry that is being blatantly accused with YELLOW journalism. It would also behoove those who are villainizing her to have an inside view as well. The street runs two ways.
Goey Again: The "inside view" comes from financial statements and minutes of boards meetings that became public records when Joyce Meyer sued to maintain Church status. Her lavish lifestyle is public record. And once again, pointing out Joyce Meyers' lavish lifestyle and huge salary is not "villanizing". I don't see it as "yellow journalism" at all. Just getting the facts out in the open. Facts that you seem to think should be either suppressed or go unquestioned.
They are public records...so what's the problem...is she trying to hide something? My only point throughout this whole thing has been this: it's easy to flame someone else whether you have an inside view or not. Yellow journalism was used on the original poster's link which is why I responded in the first place.
What is blatent to me is Ms Meyers' huge personal gain from a not for profit corproration, which BTW is illegal.
BTW you said you had a NFP corporation, is that right? It wouldn't happen to be Christian Ministry of any kind would it? Just asking.
Yes, it is. Yes, we are a NFP. The reason I have it, to minister to others. You cannot apply for grants, or do much of anything without having some sort of legal status. If the Lord leads in the future to go for 501C3, then I will.
Look, I don't want her to stop her "ministry" er , business or have it shut down. Quite a few people seem to like her stuff and she seems to do some people some good. ( it's not my cup of tea) .
However, no way is this truly a not-for-profit charity, considering how much Meyer and her family have personally gained. It's a very profitable business masquerading as a church. Therefore it should be taxed like the profitable business that it is.
Goey: Unfortunatley, since so many TV ministers have been exposed over the years as frauds, thieves and money-mongers it is understandabe that folks like Meyers get "back slaps" when they are seen living a life of extreme wealth and privilege. Fancy houses, fancy cars, etc. We know where the money comes from. The question I have is how much do they actually deserve? If they are getting wealthy off of the tithes, then it seems to me it is a business for profit and not actually a "ministry" and there should be no tax exemptions. This would be especially true if the Board of Directors is made up only of family members and lackies that are yes people to the charismatic leader.
BC: Ok, does Joyce personally own these cars? Maybe her home perhaps, or is it listed as a parsonage? Therefore, owned by the ministry...I can't remember. I looked at the articles last week.
Goey Again: Whether or not she personally "owns" the cars or property is irrelevant. She is getting free use of them which is bascially the same thing when you consider that she presides over the Board of Directors and controls the whole corporation. It's income plain and simple. She has no car note, no insurance and no maintanence expenses. No housing exenses - no mortage. This is actually better than owning a car or a home. She runs the place carte blanche and uses the not for profit "corporation" as a holding company for property that her and her familly have exclusive use of.
Goey: I say, if you are gonna claim the church tax breaks, open the books for all to see, otherwise close them and then be honest that it really just a business and that a few insiders are getting very rich off of the tithes and donations.
Goey: I take strong exception to this. Why would it necessarily be spiritual jealousy? I think it is more of a case of folks wanting to be taught and to learn from someone that is not getting filty rich off of their donations - where the greater part of the donations (minus reasonable expenses) goes to real charitable causes - rather than to support a lavish lifestyle for someone who claims to be a minister for God. How is that spiritual jealousy?
When someone else has something you are not willing to work for or take the risks, then just flame them and knock them around a bit...thus you feel better about your own inactivity.
Goey: If it is a for profit business, then modern merchanidizing techniques are fine. Just be open as say its a business and that you are getting rich off of the tithes and "love offerings". At least that is honest.
BC: Maybe you are not aware of this. When I applied for my FEIN, the IRS asked me if I ever intended selling books, tapes etc. At such an early stage I naturally said "not at this time." I wouldn't be surprised to find out you have to actually re-incorporate under a business identity (albeit the same/similar name of ministry), after all, Uncle Sam wants his cut to be sure.
Goey Again: Looks like the IRS has gotten wise to the tape and books scams from some so called non-profits. The tapes are produced and marketed with money from donations and then the leader gets to personally keep all the royalties, then claiming that this royalty income has nothing to do with funds from the ministry.
But ummmm .... what does that have to do with what I posted above? Can you address my points please?
Why don't you expound upon your comment/accusation about "spirit of jealousy?"
-------------------------------------------------
Goey: What today's so-called prophets and evangelists do is irrelevant to the issue. There is a big difference in a love offering to meet the basic needs of a minister, etc and a high tech marketing campaing that brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars which is used to keep a minister in a lavish lifestyle. Maybe you need to "get real" on this.
BC: Again, who actually owns the things, or is Joyce only using them? If she were to ever leave and they replaced her (and I know...) she would not be able to take it with her. If a NFP fails for whatever reason, you must dispose of any materials, lands, vehicles to another NFP. It is not allowed to sell it, give it away privately etc. There are laws that govern such things.
Goey Again: Let's not be naive. Ownership is irrelevant. She has no personall expenses at all. Everything is paid for. Just like it was for VPW and LCM down to the personal servants. Therefore, her salary and book royalties can go straight to savings and personal investments. . She has no personal debt at all and multiple millions in personal savings and investments. So she will never really need to take anything with her if the NFPC fails
And let's not be naive about that either. If the main NFP "fails" it can be liquidated to another NFP controlled by the same folks. Kinda like a reorgainzation. -- Like TWI Inc. and Gunnison Inc. Two completely separate NFPC's controlled by the same folks. IF TWI ever dissolves, its assets can be given to Gunnison Inc. or vice versa. In either case the same folks will control and can have exclusive use of the booty.
All ministries will be judged by the Lord Jesus, will they not? Who are you to judge? Bless you anyway.
When I look at the materialism of the church of today in America, I sometimes think we are in the 6th church of the book of revelations - the televangelists are leaders of the Laodicean church - the one right before the gathering, the one of which Christ says he will spit out of his mouth.
I take it then that the Lord Jesus has already shared the future judgments with you then? What an enviable position you must be in, sir.
Rev. 3:17: You say, 'I am rich and well off; I have all I need.' But you do not know how miserable and pitiful you are! You are poor, naked, and blind.
As Peter once said, Silver and Gold have I none, but rise and walk.
Today, with the televangelists its perversely backwards.
Silver and gold have they, but no one is healed, there is no one rising and walking.
Defend these new megachurches and its leaders, say its a great thing all you want.
But they will be spit out - they look good, they look great, millions follow these people.
Again, how do you know they will be spit out? What if you are? My Bible says that the ones that will be spit out are the Christians who are lukewarm. What are you doing for the Lord, if I may ask?
Its the great end times apostasy. The false, "feel good" health and wealth, name it and claim it church.
One that has nothing to do with Christ. The one that will be spit out.
The Great Apostasy is to leave Jesus Christ. Some posters have already informed us of their status. Where is your flaming judgments for these folks? Just an honest question that you should really answer publicly so that we may all see your complete unbiased attitude for apostasizers.
Janice! :) Long time girl! How are things shakin'? ... As you can see, I've gone a sizeable change in my views since last we corresponded, ohhh, about 11 years ago. Hope that doesn't bring too much disappointment. ... Ahh well.
No, I think it would have had to be 16+ years ago, Garth. I officially left CES in 1995 so it would have had to been prior to this. No, kind of glad you left, it was fast becoming another TWI replication which is what alarmed me in the first place. Which is why when you thumped me for my heretical views which were moving towards the Lord Jesus Christ...well, my rational logic prevailed....
Did you really remember my name or did you look up past posts on Waydale.... just curious...or did you go out to my web site?
About eight months ago? I found something you sent me, but I won't mention it here. Couldn't believe I still had it when I was cleaning my drawers out.
Well, Christ, as the Son of God, was way above the religious leaders of his day.
Darn right they called him Rabbi.
So, you think Jesus was no different than a Reverend and/or Doctor today? Gee, he was just another "teacher."
That's what the Hebrew word means, Sunesis. Merely referring to that, not His exalted status.
Is he really your Saviour, have you made him Lord in your life? Or is he just another in a myriad of nice teachers or prophets with nice words - nice guy, no one special.
Yes, He is! I hope He's yours!
Please, because you have given yourself the title "Reverend" - don't compare yourself to Christ.
Because it is Christ in me...then, well...yes. I am His ambassador here on earth and I might be the only Christ some people get to see. The same goes for anyone else who proclaims His name.
Sky4it, there are plenty of nutcase Wiccans and pagans. There are destructive groups that have leaders that are to be obeyed etc, though I haven't met any. The nutcases I have met have been pretty obvious and not in areas of authority over my life, unlike in TWI, and are easy to avoid in my small area.
Mostly I know people who are busy making their own homes sacred, their lives an act of worship. Following a charismatic leader and obeying religious authorities is not something I have seen personally outside of Christianity.
I have made pagan friends, middle aged women like myself, with jobs and families, mortgages, aging parents, ups and downs of life. Conscious thought and decision and personal responsibility are big spiritual concerns of those I consider friends, and sometimes we do group together for something. Glamorous life styles of the very wealthy seem unclean to me, considering the needs all around
I have no real desire to be involved in group things much larger than a group of friends at a campground, though I have attended a few. I do not feel they are necessary to spiritual growth. To me the large gatherings seem like a form of entertainment. Or a favorite sports team. Not that there is anything wrong with that--just not for me.
Again, how do you know they will be spit out? What if you are? My Bible says that the ones that will be spit out are the Christians who are lukewarm. What are you doing for the Lord, if I may ask?
Wow, your God is going to spit out his own family members? Niiice.
And people don't get why the wicked unbelievers don't see the all powerful love of God.
I have no real desire to be involved in group things much larger than a group of friends at a campground, though I have attended a few.
Me either, I agree and thanks. In fact, I would be willing to bet I have fewer friends than you do.
:(
I tend to gavitate toward people who talk TO me not AT me. I think there is a difference. When somebody is talking to you they engage what you say, and have some interest in your person. They are not trying to change you, just show you there view with a smile. I think that would be people like you, Abi, Belle and Garth, IMO.
Let me give you an example of talking at some one in this thread. Basically out of the blue someone came on this thread, pretty much ignored the content of the thread about Joyce Meyers, and started hammering Garth for a root of bitterness. That is talking at someone where your only interest is exulting your view in a conquest sort of way. It's not the view itself toward Garth that was offensive to Mwaaa, it is the fact that somehow someone feels that someone else is "under" them. I mean if one truly feels they are right and the other party wrong, wouldnt one feel empathy towards someone else? I think so. As much as I think sometimes I am "right" about a topic, well, doesn't everyone? I mean doesnt everyone feel there basis of view is good otherwise they would feel terrible about themselves? The point is talking to people should be more fun than talking about ideologies. Ideologies, they are just things that give us passion for living. It's (interest in other people) what makes us as people; better in nature than animals.
I think this also speaks volumes to the way people use the bible or any law or other concept. What is said, sometimes is not nearly as relevant as the context or how you are saying it.
Well basically, I know who this is, and overall she really didn't offend me perse. I was rather bemused at her attempts to presume where my motivations/reasons were/are at various points in her posts. I also find it laughable how she portray's herself as s-o-o in tune with The Lord (whereas others are somewhat lacking in that area), but HER'S is the one to whom Jesus the King is linked to and He is the one from whom she gets her info from. ..... Interesting. This kind of "We are the ones who focus on Jesus Christ/God/the Truth/etc., yadayada ..." claim is often common among a lot of similar religious groups (including CES, and even TWI), yet when you put all those groups together, they all spew something different.
And you ask each one of them who has the REAL link and relationship with Jesus Christ, and every one of them down to the last will say "We do! We do!" <_< ..... And the wild thing is, there is no way to verify that claim, other than just taking their word for it.
Janice,
We 'met' (via correspondance over mail) back in early 1996. This I remember. I saw your name in a Christian Correspondance mailing list put out by someone who was also into Dale Sides. We wrote back and forth briefly, and our main point of disagreement was re: some of Dale Sides teachings. Back then (when I agreed with a good portion of CES's teachings at the time) I spoke about how (supposedly) Sides teachings were 'out to lunch'. You disagreed with me, and that was that. (Like I said, I've changed a lot since then, to where I think that BOTH CES and Dale Sides are 'out to lunch', and for a wider range of reasons.) One thing to help you remember is that you just went through surgery for carpel tunnel, and that your hand hurt like crazy.
The health and wealth ministries use their wealth and good health and big numbers as proof that they are the right way. But since not everyone winds up healthy and or wealthy, then they have to have plan B--"That person is not walking right in their believing." Condemnation moves in, compassion goes out the window. People who are poor or ill deserve it due to their lack of faith etc.
People start pretending they have health and wealth they don't really have. Appearance--great clothes, cars etc, becomes important. Charitable causes then suffer, because followers are spending tons to keep up with the Jones Believers. Then they can no longer have real friends, because a friend will know the truth...so they have to have a pedestal of godly leadership authority to stand upon, where they breathe higher aire then the rest of the peons...
Brides website had more pleas for money than does my writing business website. I just have a sale page link!
I hope you scrolled up and saw I was going to start a political thread. I dont disagree much with what you indicated as experince in your last post. The things I remember with experiences as Christians that were either funny or a good experience, had nothing to do with arguementative ideology. One time, I was with a Pentacostal group in Minneapolis who went down to the University of Minnesota, in a common area where 200 students were gathered. All of a sudden out of the blue a guy in the group I was with says Thus saith the Lord, and he starts bellering and prophecying. Sufficient to say, my eyes were bulging out of my head as much as the students, I was in a little shock myself.
"That person is not walking right in their believing." Condemnation moves in, compassion goes out the window. People who are poor or ill deserve it due to their lack of faith etc.
Some people are just immature Bramble. Still, I think you are right, the idea of Christianity is to address issues of compassion at a better level than a humanitarian. Selfish things get in the way, things digress.
I think my Christianity in order to be effective for myself it has to become part of my nature. I dont think it is possible to ideologically think yourself into change. Healthy principles should produce heathy results. You know, I never have thought that I "preached" to anyone. Yet sometimes I have heard someone say, quit preaching. If a point is valid and it has reason, I guess that would make anyone with such a thought a preacher, regardless of what the ideology is.
The whole point of Christianity is to find some Liberty. If what one finds is condemnation, control and vices, I agree with you, the best place for finding liberty and peace is privacy.
They are public records...so what's the problem...is she trying to hide something? My only point throughout this whole thing has been this: it's easy to flame someone else whether you have an inside view or not. Yellow journalism was used on the original poster's link which is why I responded in the first place.
Goey: First of all, Meyer did not choose to release the records. They only became public records after she sued to regain tax exempt status. Then after the records became public and her salary known, she took a large cut in salary due to the pressure of public opinion. my guess is for appearance sake. However, at the same time she took the pay cut, she started collecting huge royalties from the sale of her books and tapes, basically bringing her personal income back up close to the 900K per year range.
When someone else has something you are not willing to work for or take the risks, then just flame them and knock them around a bit...thus you feel better about your own inactivity.
Goey: You have no clue at all what anyone is or is not willing to work for or what their calling may or may not be. All were not "called" to be mnisters that live a lavish lifestyle made possible by the tithes and donations of their "flock". Some have certainly been called to other things, so it is errant and might I say unthinking to assume that because they are not striving to run a world wide ministry that they are "inactive" or "unwilling" or have a spirit of jealousy.
There are other Christian activities beside being a rich mass media "minister", many of which may be even more noble. So it does not necessarily follow that inactivity/ jealously is the cause of the alleged "flame". Have you ever actually considered that it may not please God for someone to become weathy by selling his Word for personal gain? And that it may be even more unpleasing to sell something other than his Word in His name for personal profit? Or does pleasing God even matter to you as long as the coffers and pews are full and the money is rolling in?
I recall a verse that says something like: Freely you have received so also give freely. It seems that modern Christianity has become so twisted that many now believe the opposite. Something like: Pay and make 'em pay and make a nice profit while you're at it .
If your ministry is of God and you are truly called, I wish you well and Godspeed. However if you seek to gain personal wealth from your ministry and /or knowlgly teach something other than God's Word to itching ears, I hope your ministy fails miserably and God deals with you justly.
It's a pity and a shame, all of this. But if a person/group refuses to submit to outside accountability they are cruising for a bruising. For ministries that exist outside the accountability confines of a denomination there is the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. I can see no good reason one would not belong and can see plenty of bad reasons they wouldn't.
Here's a blurb...
ECFA’s Standards of Responsible Stewardship focus on board governance, financial transparency, integrity in fund-raising, and proper use of charity resources.
Compliance with the Standards is monitored in three ways. First, all ECFA members must annually submit membership review information including independent CPA financial statements, IRS Form 990 (if applicable), salary information, fund-raising appeals, board composition, changes in organizing documents, and much more to verify compliance with the Standards. Second, ECFA conducts on-site field reviews at over 15% of its membership each year. These field reviews serve to verify the information submitted in the annual membership review, confirm compliance with the ECFA membership Standards, and give support to the member organizations. This year, approximately 200 organizations will receive an on-site review. Third, ECFA responds to complaints against member organizations. All such complaints are investigated thoroughly in order to determine possible noncompliance with the Standards.
ECFA provides several services to the donor public as well. Disclosure requirements enable donors to request and receive audited financial statements for all ECFA members. ECFA’s website contains a membership directory with selected financial information of all its members, guidelines for giving, the Donor’s Bill of Rights, and general information helpful to the giving public. In addition, ECFA staff provides information to donors on a variety of issues.
Bias? No my concern came from the original poster of this thread who posted a link to some snippets of what journalists purportedly investigated about Myers. Some of these snippets is plain yellow journalism. The assumptions of some were that when they 'saw' a woman in a wheelchair writing a check to the ministry, the inference was that she must be poor and unable to even pay her utility bills, or her medical bills and probably was living on the street type attitude. Where is the documentation for such assumptions?
This is laughable. I read the article. This is what was stated:
"A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100."
Nowhere is there anything that assumes or implies that the lady was poor, unable to pay her bills, or living on the street. It was a simple statement of fact of what was observed. " A lady in a wheelchair worote out a check for $100." That's it, nothing more.
A statement cannot make an inferrence. By definition the "inferrence" is made by by the person hearing the statement. A statement can only imply something. You apparantly don't understand the difference between imply and infer. (Critical Thinking 101). What seems to have happened is that YOU inferred an implication based upon nothing at all, except possibly your own zeal to errantly or falsely portray a simple statement of fact as "yellow journalism".
This is a classic example of intellectual dishonesty or errant logic. Whether intentionally dishonest or not, only you would know.
I hope you scrolled up and saw I was going to start a political thread. I dont disagree much with what you indicated as experince in your last post. The things I remember with experiences as Christians that were either funny or a good experience, had nothing to do with arguementative ideology. One time, I was with a Pentacostal group in Minneapolis who went down to the University of Minnesota, in a common area where 200 students were gathered. All of a sudden out of the blue a guy in the group I was with says Thus saith the Lord, and he starts bellering and prophecying. Sufficient to say, my eyes were bulging out of my head as much as the students, I was in a little shock myself.
Ack, worse than door to door!
Some people are just immature Bramble. Still, I think you are right, the idea of Christianity is to address issues of compassion at a better level than a humanitarian. Selfish things get in the way, things digress.
Some people are immature, yes, but there are whole churches that accept the doctrine that the poor and sick deserve it because they are not doing something right. There was a thread on OPEN not too long ago about a class the poster was taking, which dealt with just this issue.
I think my Christianity in order to be effective for myself it has to become part of my nature. I dont think it is possible to ideologically think yourself into change. Healthy principles should produce heathy results.
I Agree. Thoughts and considerations may change your view point, which will lead to changes of actions, but I don't think that is an instant thing.
You know, I never have thought that I "preached" to anyone. Yet sometimes I have heard someone say, quit preaching. If a point is valid and it has reason, I guess that would make anyone with such a thought a preacher, regardless of what the ideology is.
A preacher who teaches practical applications of a doctrine or expands on ideas I have no problem with. I could learn something.
But a preacher who tells me what I think, assumes they know what is best for me, and tries to reprove, correct or guilt me into their way of thinking, who presumes they have some type of spiritual authority over my life, is actually showing no respect to me. That type of preacher will get nowhere. And that is the type that TWI raised up.
The whole point of Christianity is to find some Liberty. If what one finds is condemnation, control and vices, I agree with you, the best place for finding liberty and peace is privacy.
Some would say the whole point of Christianity is obedience, and God set up rulers in the Church...those who don't follow the leadership become 'greasespots by midnight.'
Well, then please explain why the Lord Jesus never reproved those who called him
Rabbi? This would be on the same level today as Reverend and/or Doctor. Just a different century, Cman.
Ummmm, Janice, where did you get ordained and what Bible are you using? Is it missing scriptures? :unsure: And why do none of your cohorts want to be associated with your website?
Matthew 23 addresses this:
v5 - But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
v6 - And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
v7 - And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
v8 - But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
v.10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
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brideofjc
Well, then please explain why the Lord Jesus never reproved those who called him
Rabbi? This would be on the same level today as Reverend and/or Doctor. Just a different century, Cman.
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Sunesis
Well, Christ, as the Son of God, was way above the religious leaders of his day.
Darn right they called him Rabbi.
So, you think Jesus was no different than a Reverend and/or Doctor today? Gee, he was just another "teacher."
Is he really your Saviour, have you made him Lord in your life? Or is he just another in a myriad of nice teachers or prophets with nice words - nice guy, no one special.
Please, because you have given yourself the title "Reverend" - don't compare yourself to Christ.
Your analogy was false.
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brideofjc
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sky4it
Dont worry about it too much Garth. If some nutcase cultists grabs you and attempts brainwashing? Well if you have a friend like me, Abi, Bramble and Belle, all you have to do is call out we will fetch you back and deprogram you.
I was thinking of starting a thread in the political heading. I do so much enjoy your views. If I start one I will let you know. Perhaps under politics we can discuss less digressing things. Anyway, have a good one.
Doesnt this leave you feeling isolated and seperated from almost everybody.? Since I too am by and large a loner, healthy sceptism does leave one isolated no? I mean, it doesn't matter what area of peoples views you are talking about. There are a few nutcase Democrats and Republicans as well. Their are a few nutcase people in everyarea of views. If everytime we find a few in one area of belief we disregard the whole, dont we kind of limit our access to the good? As there are some good Democrats and Republicans as well? (I am NOT saying Joyce is a nutcase, but she does have some issues) Chances are there are some nutcase Wiccans as well?
An old man when I was a kid once said your lucky if you find five good friends in a lifetime. I think he was right.
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brideofjc
All ministries will be judged by the Lord Jesus, will they not? Who are you to judge? Bless you anyway.
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brideofjc
Yes it is and yes I am. The true title is, "The Holy, The Common and The Despised."
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brideofjc
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brideofjc
No, I think it would have had to be 16+ years ago, Garth. I officially left CES in 1995 so it would have had to been prior to this. No, kind of glad you left, it was fast becoming another TWI replication which is what alarmed me in the first place. Which is why when you thumped me for my heretical views which were moving towards the Lord Jesus Christ...well, my rational logic prevailed....
Did you really remember my name or did you look up past posts on Waydale.... just curious...or did you go out to my web site?
About eight months ago? I found something you sent me, but I won't mention it here. Couldn't believe I still had it when I was cleaning my drawers out.
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brideofjc
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Bramble
Sky4it, there are plenty of nutcase Wiccans and pagans. There are destructive groups that have leaders that are to be obeyed etc, though I haven't met any. The nutcases I have met have been pretty obvious and not in areas of authority over my life, unlike in TWI, and are easy to avoid in my small area.
Mostly I know people who are busy making their own homes sacred, their lives an act of worship. Following a charismatic leader and obeying religious authorities is not something I have seen personally outside of Christianity.
I have made pagan friends, middle aged women like myself, with jobs and families, mortgages, aging parents, ups and downs of life. Conscious thought and decision and personal responsibility are big spiritual concerns of those I consider friends, and sometimes we do group together for something. Glamorous life styles of the very wealthy seem unclean to me, considering the needs all around
I have no real desire to be involved in group things much larger than a group of friends at a campground, though I have attended a few. I do not feel they are necessary to spiritual growth. To me the large gatherings seem like a form of entertainment. Or a favorite sports team. Not that there is anything wrong with that--just not for me.
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Larry N Moore
Kinda makes you wonder how a person can get anything else accurate when they can't even get the title of a book correct.
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Bramble
quote( Bride)
Again, how do you know they will be spit out? What if you are? My Bible says that the ones that will be spit out are the Christians who are lukewarm. What are you doing for the Lord, if I may ask?
Wow, your God is going to spit out his own family members? Niiice.
And people don't get why the wicked unbelievers don't see the all powerful love of God.
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sky4it
Me either, I agree and thanks. In fact, I would be willing to bet I have fewer friends than you do.
:(
I tend to gavitate toward people who talk TO me not AT me. I think there is a difference. When somebody is talking to you they engage what you say, and have some interest in your person. They are not trying to change you, just show you there view with a smile. I think that would be people like you, Abi, Belle and Garth, IMO.
Let me give you an example of talking at some one in this thread. Basically out of the blue someone came on this thread, pretty much ignored the content of the thread about Joyce Meyers, and started hammering Garth for a root of bitterness. That is talking at someone where your only interest is exulting your view in a conquest sort of way. It's not the view itself toward Garth that was offensive to Mwaaa, it is the fact that somehow someone feels that someone else is "under" them. I mean if one truly feels they are right and the other party wrong, wouldnt one feel empathy towards someone else? I think so. As much as I think sometimes I am "right" about a topic, well, doesn't everyone? I mean doesnt everyone feel there basis of view is good otherwise they would feel terrible about themselves? The point is talking to people should be more fun than talking about ideologies. Ideologies, they are just things that give us passion for living. It's (interest in other people) what makes us as people; better in nature than animals.
I think this also speaks volumes to the way people use the bible or any law or other concept. What is said, sometimes is not nearly as relevant as the context or how you are saying it.
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GarthP2000
Sky4it,
Well basically, I know who this is, and overall she really didn't offend me perse. I was rather bemused at her attempts to presume where my motivations/reasons were/are at various points in her posts. I also find it laughable how she portray's herself as s-o-o in tune with The Lord (whereas others are somewhat lacking in that area), but HER'S is the one to whom Jesus the King is linked to and He is the one from whom she gets her info from. ..... Interesting. This kind of "We are the ones who focus on Jesus Christ/God/the Truth/etc., yadayada ..." claim is often common among a lot of similar religious groups (including CES, and even TWI), yet when you put all those groups together, they all spew something different.
And you ask each one of them who has the REAL link and relationship with Jesus Christ, and every one of them down to the last will say "We do! We do!" <_< ..... And the wild thing is, there is no way to verify that claim, other than just taking their word for it.
Janice,
We 'met' (via correspondance over mail) back in early 1996. This I remember. I saw your name in a Christian Correspondance mailing list put out by someone who was also into Dale Sides. We wrote back and forth briefly, and our main point of disagreement was re: some of Dale Sides teachings. Back then (when I agreed with a good portion of CES's teachings at the time) I spoke about how (supposedly) Sides teachings were 'out to lunch'. You disagreed with me, and that was that. (Like I said, I've changed a lot since then, to where I think that BOTH CES and Dale Sides are 'out to lunch', and for a wider range of reasons.) One thing to help you remember is that you just went through surgery for carpel tunnel, and that your hand hurt like crazy.
Hope this helps clear things up a bit.
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Bramble
My opinion.
The health and wealth ministries use their wealth and good health and big numbers as proof that they are the right way. But since not everyone winds up healthy and or wealthy, then they have to have plan B--"That person is not walking right in their believing." Condemnation moves in, compassion goes out the window. People who are poor or ill deserve it due to their lack of faith etc.
People start pretending they have health and wealth they don't really have. Appearance--great clothes, cars etc, becomes important. Charitable causes then suffer, because followers are spending tons to keep up with the Jones Believers. Then they can no longer have real friends, because a friend will know the truth...so they have to have a pedestal of godly leadership authority to stand upon, where they breathe higher aire then the rest of the peons...
Brides website had more pleas for money than does my writing business website. I just have a sale page link!
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cman
Have you ever met the Lord brideofjc?
If you haven't then how could you make him Lord.
Your idea of who you think he is may differ greatly from who is.
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sky4it
Garth;
I hope you scrolled up and saw I was going to start a political thread. I dont disagree much with what you indicated as experince in your last post. The things I remember with experiences as Christians that were either funny or a good experience, had nothing to do with arguementative ideology. One time, I was with a Pentacostal group in Minneapolis who went down to the University of Minnesota, in a common area where 200 students were gathered. All of a sudden out of the blue a guy in the group I was with says Thus saith the Lord, and he starts bellering and prophecying. Sufficient to say, my eyes were bulging out of my head as much as the students, I was in a little shock myself.
Some people are just immature Bramble. Still, I think you are right, the idea of Christianity is to address issues of compassion at a better level than a humanitarian. Selfish things get in the way, things digress.
I think my Christianity in order to be effective for myself it has to become part of my nature. I dont think it is possible to ideologically think yourself into change. Healthy principles should produce heathy results. You know, I never have thought that I "preached" to anyone. Yet sometimes I have heard someone say, quit preaching. If a point is valid and it has reason, I guess that would make anyone with such a thought a preacher, regardless of what the ideology is.
The whole point of Christianity is to find some Liberty. If what one finds is condemnation, control and vices, I agree with you, the best place for finding liberty and peace is privacy.
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Goey
Goey: First of all, Meyer did not choose to release the records. They only became public records after she sued to regain tax exempt status. Then after the records became public and her salary known, she took a large cut in salary due to the pressure of public opinion. my guess is for appearance sake. However, at the same time she took the pay cut, she started collecting huge royalties from the sale of her books and tapes, basically bringing her personal income back up close to the 900K per year range.
Goey: You have no clue at all what anyone is or is not willing to work for or what their calling may or may not be. All were not "called" to be mnisters that live a lavish lifestyle made possible by the tithes and donations of their "flock". Some have certainly been called to other things, so it is errant and might I say unthinking to assume that because they are not striving to run a world wide ministry that they are "inactive" or "unwilling" or have a spirit of jealousy.
There are other Christian activities beside being a rich mass media "minister", many of which may be even more noble. So it does not necessarily follow that inactivity/ jealously is the cause of the alleged "flame". Have you ever actually considered that it may not please God for someone to become weathy by selling his Word for personal gain? And that it may be even more unpleasing to sell something other than his Word in His name for personal profit? Or does pleasing God even matter to you as long as the coffers and pews are full and the money is rolling in?
I recall a verse that says something like: Freely you have received so also give freely. It seems that modern Christianity has become so twisted that many now believe the opposite. Something like: Pay and make 'em pay and make a nice profit while you're at it .
If your ministry is of God and you are truly called, I wish you well and Godspeed. However if you seek to gain personal wealth from your ministry and /or knowlgly teach something other than God's Word to itching ears, I hope your ministy fails miserably and God deals with you justly.
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TheEvan
It's a pity and a shame, all of this. But if a person/group refuses to submit to outside accountability they are cruising for a bruising. For ministries that exist outside the accountability confines of a denomination there is the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. I can see no good reason one would not belong and can see plenty of bad reasons they wouldn't.
Here's a blurb...
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Goey
This is laughable. I read the article. This is what was stated:
"A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100."
Nowhere is there anything that assumes or implies that the lady was poor, unable to pay her bills, or living on the street. It was a simple statement of fact of what was observed. " A lady in a wheelchair worote out a check for $100." That's it, nothing more.
A statement cannot make an inferrence. By definition the "inferrence" is made by by the person hearing the statement. A statement can only imply something. You apparantly don't understand the difference between imply and infer. (Critical Thinking 101). What seems to have happened is that YOU inferred an implication based upon nothing at all, except possibly your own zeal to errantly or falsely portray a simple statement of fact as "yellow journalism".
This is a classic example of intellectual dishonesty or errant logic. Whether intentionally dishonest or not, only you would know.
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Bramble
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Goey
If would be nice if you guys would use the quote feature in a manner that allows us to know who said what.
Thanks in advance,
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Bramble
??? I quoted sky4it, my replies are in a different color.
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Belle
Ummmm, Janice, where did you get ordained and what Bible are you using? Is it missing scriptures? :unsure: And why do none of your cohorts want to be associated with your website?
Matthew 23 addresses this:
v5 - But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
v6 - And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
v7 - And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
v8 - But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
v.10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
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