My wife and our old friend Lynda C listen to Joyce Meyers and enjoy her. I've never had much patience for her myself; She seems to self-centered to me. Sort of the Christian Oprah. But not having had any particular interest in her, I've never been motivated to do any in=depth research.
She also uses merchandizing techniques and I ask you what is wrong with that.
I do not know of one travelling prophet or smaller evangelist who does not do the same. The only difference between the two is the size of the ministries. When the evangelist/prophet is still small....let's just call it a LOVE OFFERING...however, when they become well known...OH, NOW THEY ARE FLEECING THE FLOCK. Please, get real!
Did Jesus have merchandise available for sale 'at the back of the room'? Such as,
It is always easy to villainize those that are above you. It is always easier to pull down rather than to lift up.
Not to mention, a LOT more fun.
"Don't let mutterers stop you in life," Meyer told them, shaking her fist in the air. "People are jealous, critical. They're resentful. Most people want what you get but they don't want to do what you did to get it."
Sounds to me, she's in it for the money. But hey, that's just me.
"That's between them and God," Granville said. "If they're getting the word of God out, why should they ride around in a 1980 Pinto? Is Joyce Meyer supposed to come out here in Salvation Army clothes or patched-up jeans?"
Meyer wears nothing but the best. Her clothes are tailor-made. She has a private hairdresser. Her nails are perfect. She wears glasslike slippers and dangly earrings and sparkly necklaces.
BRIDE - If you can afford to go to Sacs...would you go to the Salvation Army...I THINK NOT!
Her workers back in St. Louis pack the things she needs at the conference. Perrier water is a must.
BRIDE - "I carry my own water too. Oh, MY GOD...I have an undersink purifier...better get rid of that before I get criticized as well. So, she prefers a particular BRAND NAME....What is the BIG DEAL????
Might there be a difference between preferring Dom Perignon champagne as opposed to Cold Duck?
"It takes four 18-wheelers to carry her products and stage setup from St. Louis to each conference.
On the road, Meyer and her husband live in exclusive hotels."
BRIDE - Sounds cost efficient to me...can you imagine what the postage would be like??
In Detroit, they stayed in a suite in the Townsend in Birmingham, Mich., the area's richest suburb. The Townsend houses movie and rock stars when they appear locally. Privacy protection is the hotel's hallmark, and it prides itself on its "discreet" handling of each guest. Suites cost about $1,500 a night."
BRIDE - Again, if you can afford it, you would too. Joyce is supposed to go down to "RENT-A-BOX" and sleep in the ghetto?
Didn't Jesus hung out with the dregs of society? Dregs generally don't have rooms at the Jerusalem Hilton.
OH, PLEASE! No one here on this forum would do that, unless you are forced to, so why knock her about.
Why? Because she happens to be a minister? Even Jesus had an accountant (not too honest), but The Lord still had one! Bet He rode the best mule, too? Want to knock HIM? Be my guest!
So, by this logic, Jesus would have stayed at the Jerusalem Hilton, worn a Rolex on his tv show, and driven a Lamborghini Testarossa?
My wife and our old friend Lynda C listen to Joyce Meyers and enjoy her.
Thats 100 percent the same reason, how I became familiar with Joyce Meyers. I never really listened to a her as in a lot, as, I was too busy most of the time. Nope, I am certainly not an expert on Joyce Meyers so I shouldnt have commented on her.
It is always easy to villainize those that are above you. It is always easier to pull down rather than to lift up. Not to mention, a LOT more fun. .
Or as I look at it, lifes better on the bottom, there is a clearer view to the top. If what part of Joyce preaches is prosperity (as in finances) (I dunno , I really havent read her stuff) maybe I am better off where or just as good where I am at!
They also had a time where she rebuttled and showed how .82 of each dollar is used directly for the projects etc. she is involved with.
I think the point Dot is that she is living rather large. I personally dont have a problem with that, unless they are teaching messages on tithing at the same time. I think then, its inapprobriate, because some of the people sending money in, are living paycheck to paycheck.
I think the problem people like Joyce Meyers have, is taking care of to many friends and relatives, and thinking thats the right thing to do. I think Joyce has a good heart, and means well. Also it is not uncommon in the industry for others to do this, so perhaps Joyce felt she should too (I dunno) Joyce Meyers seems to teach in her messages that sometimes its good to say NO, I think she needs to do this perhaps to somepeople around her.
I think Jesus said if people do things for purely financial gain, they have there reward. I'm not saying that statement applies 100 percent to Joyce Meyers, I dunno, thats up to you know who. I do however think that statement speaks volumes to the people who have labored under tyrants like VPW and others who have labored for absolutely no reward. The simple point being someday there will be an equalizer for all. :)
I gotta say this: If Joyce Meyer has led one soul to Christ, if she has helped one person to live the life Jesus intended, if she is setting people free from bondage, if she is teaching them to claim their rights as children of the Most High God, then God bless her!
She can have all the Cadillacs, nice hotels, employees, 18 wheelers, manicures and facelifts (or whatever she has) she wants.
Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!
Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!
That is exactly what televangelists want you to do. Just listen (and do) what they say. Don't look at their profiteering from their bringing 'lost souls' (and their $$$ of course) to their tent. Don't look at how they can (mis)use their religious tax exemption to profit further thereby. Don't look at whether or not their private lives match up with their teachings that they expect the rest of us to do.
Ie., Pay no attention to the man (or woman) behind the curtain.
.
.
I think not WG. Who needs that kind of 'salvation'. ..... Might as well 'take the class'!
WG, with all due respect, that's the kind of statement that OM, Mike and WTF say about vee pee. :( The same thing people say about Benny Hinn and others.....
I don't think she should live like a pauper, but I do think her life and lifestyle should be above reproach. Based on these articles and other stuff I've read about her.... it does raise some questions. Try to find some dirt on Billy Graham and you won't be able to. He lives what he preaches.... I just think Joyce should, too.
I am happy that she is helping people, especially our beloved Dot, but I will not and do not condone her lifestyle, nor will I ignore the implications of it.
WG, with all due respect, that's the kind of statement that OM, Mike and WTF say about vee pee. :( The same thing people say about Benny Hinn and others.....
I don't think she should live like a pauper, but I do think her life and lifestyle should be above reproach. Based on these articles and other stuff I've read about her.... it does raise some questions. Try to find some dirt on Billy Graham and you won't be able to. He lives what he preaches.... I just think Joyce should, too.
I am happy that she is helping people, especially our beloved Dot, but I will not and do not condone her lifestyle, nor will I ignore the implications of it.
But the Star-Telegram and the Graham spokeswoman failed to point out the fact that Graham worked less than 25 days in 2000 and no other employee in his organization is paid 100 % salary for being sick 80 percent of the time!
"The ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee is investigating the financial dealings of six TV evangelists, saying donors deserve to have their "money spent as intended and in adherence with the tax code."
and
They include Joyce Meyer, one of America's wealthiest and most powerful TV preachers who has built a $124-million-a-year empire headquartered in the St. Louis suburb of Fenton.
A 2003 series in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch detailed her lavish lifestyle and blunt fundraising pitches.
"I'm following up on complaints from the public and news coverage regarding certain practices at six ministries," Grassley said in a statement.
"The allegations involve governing boards that aren't independent and allow generous salaries and housing allowances and amenities such as private jets and Rolls-Royces."
I heard her somewhere a few times years ago - when her ministry was still small and she was struggling.
I think one of the only reasons she became so popular is because the lady is a riot. At least back then she was.
She could easily be a top comedian - her stories were hilarious. Thus, she was deemed "human" and frail like everyone else and they could relate, especially women.
I also remember thinking, this lady will go to the top. It will be interesting to see what she morphs into when the $$$ comes rolling in. Will she become a ruthless VP close behind the scenes - nasty, things to hide?
I know nothing about her now, but this debate is interesting.
I remember questioning DM and other people - asking, why does VP need the bus, airplane, fancy clothes, etc. She said because they need it to move the Word, to look the "best" as God's representative. Oh, hmmm..... I guess we were to be happy with our clothes from give away and beat up cars. I never bought it. And, true to form, the "wealth" was shared with other top leadership in TWI who were public.
Sounds like history repeating itself here with Joyce. As far as I'm concerned, once the $$ rolls in the you see the fancy compounds, house, buses, entourage, etc. - you're on your way to corruption.
I gotta say this: If Joyce Meyer has led one soul to Christ, if she has helped one person to live the life Jesus intended, if she is setting people free from bondage, if she is teaching them to claim their rights as children of the Most High God, then God bless her!
She can have all the Cadillacs, nice hotels, employees, 18 wheelers, manicures and facelifts (or whatever she has) she wants.
Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!
WG
Golly, that sounds just like something I would say about VP... :o :D
I gotta say this: If Joyce Meyer has led one soul to Christ, if she has helped one person to live the life Jesus intended, if she is setting people free from bondage, if she is teaching them to claim their rights as children of the Most High God, then God bless her!
She can have all the Cadillacs, nice hotels, employees, 18 wheelers, manicures and facelifts (or whatever she has) she wants.
Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!
WG
The only problem is, there has to be a whole lot of "ifs" for her to account for to justify having all those Cadillacs, nice hotel rooms, etc.
Well, that's Americanized Christianity for you. It just goes to show and to prove to people exactly what it consists of.
I gotta say this: If Joyce Meyer has led one soul to Christ, if she has helped one person to live the life Jesus intended, if she is setting people free from bondage, if she is teaching them to claim their rights as children of the Most High God, then God bless her!
She can have all the Cadillacs, nice hotels, employees, 18 wheelers, manicures and facelifts (or whatever she has) she wants.
Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!
WG
Right on, WG!
Spiritual truth stands despite the alleged "fleshly disposition and carnality" of the communicator.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
A big assumption today is that the tithe belongs to the church. However the Levites, who owned nothing for themselves, were given no more than 10%. Interesting that they couldn't own land! Ever wonder why? Anyway, look at the early church. I Cor. 4:11. The evangelists then got a smaller contribution (hey, Paul wouldn't take their money), and they were themselves poor, and a major organization was structured so the redistribution of funds could be made to widows and orphans (Acts 6:1-6). Over 90% was given to the poor. When was the last time anyone taught that? Imagine what it could do to the name of Christianity if some of these megachurches used their funds to fund clean water overseas? So, Joyce Meyers shouldn't stay in a "seedy" motel? Why not? Jesus didn't even have a pillow. What does it mean to have family that is starving to death? There are people in the Body of Christ who are doing just that. There are homeless. There are junkies, and widows, and orphans, and single-moms, and whores, and kids who work for $.31/hour in deplorable conditions in Honduras so WalMart can sell $300 million a year. Who did Jesus hang with? (see proceeding sentence for answer) How can we call ourselves followers of Jesus without doing what he did, without caring about what and who he cared about? We may not all be in the position some of these "rich" leaders are in, but I wouldn't want to be in their position in the end anyway. Jesus told the rich guy to give it all up and the man walked away from him. It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle....
Anyone who thinks richness is cool should read "The Irresistible Revolution" by Shane Claiborne. Most of the above are ideas from that book. I must warn you, however, to go on a shopping spree first because you'll think twice about what you spend after you read it.
I read it or rather looked at the flow charts provided. The IRS may frown on it, but it is not illegal. As any good accountant will tell you (and this applies to secular businesses) "it is not illegal to AVOID paying taxes, only if you EVADE paying them. A NFP won't even come up on the IRS crosshairs until they start bringing in $100K per year at which time they must begin filing 1090's and declaring what they bring. So, if you are a qualifying church with active services on a regular basis and are tax exempt because of it, again why should the church apologize. Secular businesses AVOID paying taxes if they can as well. I think most of the shareholders of ENRON stock would have wished they could have looked at the books ahead of the catastrophe and then not just the CEO's etc. could have been allowed to dump their stock into the market as well.
Goey: I think that Christian minitries should hold themselves to a higher standard than secular busninesses. It is not so much an issue of "is it illegal" than it is one of "does it please God". Christian ministries should not only obey the law, they should also strive to please God - (assuming that God is actually involved)
I personally think that churches should be upfront and open to their congregants and adherants as a matter of integrity before the Lord...but to secular jerks? Just try and get a detailed analysis, completely open... of notable businesses and if there's a way to force a legal injunction against your desires, I'd bet they do it...even if it's just as simple as saying you're not a shareholder, etc.
Goey: I think that churches should be fully transparant to ALL , especially if they are claiming that by tithing to them, it will be multiplied back to the giver. These ministries are recruiting "secular jerks" and thier cash so I think the "secular jerks" should know where the money goes. What good reason could they have for not being fully transparant? I think I know. On the other hand, detailed financial information is readily available on any publically traded corporation, so I don't get your point in that area.
Please don't knock on ministries that you do not have an inside view of. Since I have a NFP myself, I watch what I do and constantly ask myself, "Will this look all right or would someone question my integrity?
Goey: And I would add, please don't overly defend them either if you don't have an inside view. Since you don't know Meyer's salary or how much she has personally gained from the donations she solicits, you would certainly not have an inside view. Given the track record of TV ministries in the past, I would be reluctant to run to their defense without some really good info. I don't really think they deserve the benefit if the doubt. Been too many scams.
Well, enough. I don't listen to her as much, but it bothers me when people just take back slaps without knowing the whole story. Because you can know this...secular newspapers will always write with their own slant and color whatever with the color they wish to paint with that day.
Goey: Unfortunatley, since so many TV ministers have been exposed over the years as frauds, thieves and money-mongers it is understandabe that folks like Meyers get "back slaps" when they are seen living a life of extreme wealth and privilege. Fancy houses, fancy cars, etc. We know where the money comes from. The question I have is how much do they actually deserve? If they are getting wealthy off of the tithes, then it seems to me it is a business for profit and not actually a "ministry" and there should be no tax exemptions. This would be especially true if the Board of Directors is made up only of family members and lackies that are yes people to the charismatic leader.
I say, if you are gonna claim the church tax breaks, open the books for all to see, otherwise close them and then be honest that it really just a business and that a few insiders are getting very rich off of the tithes and donations.
Ok, so far, unless I'm missing it somewhere, I haven't seen the actual yearly salary for Joyce Myers. I've seen what the ministry brings in and when she asks for money she mandates that the checks be made out to the ministry and not to her personally. SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM???
Sounds like a spirit of JEALOUSY to me.
Goey: I take strong exception to this. Why would it necessarily be spiritual jealousy? I think it is more of a case of folks wanting to be taught and to learn from someone that is not getting filty rich off of their donations - where the greater part of the donations (minus reasonable expenses) goes to real charitable causes - rather than to support a lavish lifestyle for someone who claims to be a minister for God. How is that spiritual jealousy?
She also uses merchandizing techniques and I ask you what is wrong with that. I do not know of one travelling prophet or smaller evangelist who does not do the same. The only difference between the two is the size of the ministries. When the evangelist/prophet is still small....let's just call it a LOVE OFFERING...however, when they become well known...OH, NOW THEY ARE FLEECING THE FLOCK. Please, get real!
Goey: If it is a for profit business, then modern merchanidizing techniques are fine. Just be open as say its a business and that you are getting rich off of the tithes and "love offerings". At least that is honest.
What today's so-called prophets and evangelists do is irrelevant to the issue. There is a big difference in a love offering to meet the basic needs of a minister, etc and a high tech marketing campaing that brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars which is used to keep a minister in a lavish lifestyle. Maybe you need to "get real" on this.
It is always easy to villainize those that are above you. It is always easier to pull down rather than to lift up.
Goey: It is not villainizing to expect those who claim to be Christian leaders to hold themsleves to certain standards. It is not villainizing to ask these leaders to give an open accounting of finances and how much they personally gain from tithes and offerings.
The TV ministers that have fallen, fell because of their own doings, not because they were "pulled down" unjustly. I don't think anyone here is trying to "pull down" Joyce Meyers. Seem more like folks just want some answers and some facts.
Belle so kindly found Billy Graham's flow chart or whatever you call those wheels...Belle, could you find one for Joyce's personal salary? That would be very helpful if you could. Let's compare apples to apples. $400K for Billy is nothing to sneeze at either.
Goey: 400K seems quite high to me - even for Graham. I thought is was more like 200K. But regardless, what is it that leads these ministers think they should make so much money and live lifestyles far and above those they claim to serve?
FYI, as I understand it John Haggee is one of the higest paid TV ministers today. His 2003 compensation package was reported to be about 1.2 million. The Copeland's seems to be raking in quite a bit as well. Not sure what the 990's say.
Oldies, I don't care who Jesus ate with, that's not the point.
I don't read about Jesus amassing a material kingdom here on earth. He didn't go around in his motorcoach, latest harley, buying up property, making a compound with lots of buildings, or building a castle, or whatever wealthy people did back then - amass sheep?
Jesus Christ preached a spiritual kingdom coming - that was his message - that all are welcome - follow Him.
He himself said it is very hard for a rich man to enter the coming kingdom.
I agree - what we see here is Americanized Christianity.
There is no difference between the amassing of wealth of these televangelists and the vatican amassing their wealth. None.
It is a marriage with the world, it is creating an earthy, material kingdom, it is a making merchandise of God's people. It is enriching themselves and gorging themselves on the backs of their flock.
Thanks for posting that WTH. That brings back childhood memories. "Noah" is one of my favorite Bill Cosby recordings. (From "Bill Cosby is a Very Funny Fellow" if I remember correctly) :-)
But back to the topic at hand: Irish, good point!
I think most Churches who teach tithing don't understand (or choose to ignore) the example of the First Century Church. The monies collected after Pentecost weren't used to provide lavish offices, and build private schools for Peter & John Ministries, Inc. The purpose of the collection was to ensure that each believer had his or her needs met. This was the Apostles and Holy Spirit's response to the threats of the Pharisees and Saducees. The threats were intended to stop the believers from preaching Christ. In order to keep the follower's focus on preaching the gospel, the collection was initiated. And the stewardship thereof was intended to keep the people from having to worry about worldly issues so that they could focus on the work of the Lord.
Acts 4:31 -35
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
How marvelous a day it would be if the modern Church could recapture that truth and practice it!! Not everyone has a knack for running a business or selling insurance. Some of us are more suited to other things. But in our culture, it's every man for himself, so those who can make lots of money keep it or give some to the Church, while those who can't are forced to give up our opportunities to work in the Lord's fields because we have to work overtime to provide for our families. Meanwhile the fields are white, the harvest rots on the vine, and the work of the Kingdom goes undone.
Paul also refers to this in II Corinthians chapter 8:12 -15. Again we see that the collection was not a tithe, was not compulsory, and was not intended to generate gobs of money to support the apostles and prophets. Verse 15 sums up the purpose of the collection.
2Cr 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, [it is]accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not.
2Cr 8:13 For not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Cr 8:14 But by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
2Cr 8:15 As it is written, He that [had gathered] much had nothing over; and he that [had gathered] little had no lack
So the First Century Church didn't collect money from the followers so they could "fund outreach". The outreach was accomplished by the believers preaching the gospel. I wasn't around back then, but it seems to me that part of the witness of those common folks talking to their friends and neighbors about the Lord was the fact that they didn't have to worry about how they were going to survive because the ekklesia took care of itself. In our modern socioeconomically tainted brand of conservativism, it's anathema to suggest such a practice because Good Republicans know that's communism and communism is equivalent to atheism. Better dead than red Fred!
So rather than contribute what we don't need to meet the needs of them who don't have enough, those who have an abundance are encouraged to tithe so that wealthy people can get more wealth and their favorite evangelists can live like wealthy people. Meanwhile those who don't have enough are encouraged to tithe, even though they can't afford to, so that God will miraculously pour goods and services upon their heads. But don't ask us to help brother, the Lord will provide.
Hog--I say, HOGWASH! I tithed faithfully for over ten years and all it got me was deep into debt. I finally woke up and re-read the Scriptures and realized I was giving away what God had sent to supply our needs. By tithing, I was creating lack from God's supply. And of course, when I needed something, there was rarely any miracle money sent through the "windows of heaven". So I borrowed. and I borrowed. and then dang it, I had to borrow some more.
Finally, after I realized the New Testament doesn't support all this tithing nonsense, I stopped it and began saving money instead. It was one of the best decisions I ever made.
Now some of you will argue and say that you tithe and it works for you. That's nice. I'm happy for ya. But here's what I've learned over the past 25 years of praying and working and believing. Money is a man-made invention and God doesn't have any. The only way to acquire money is to get it from other people. And if we're going to recognize that basic truth, why not go all the way and follow Paul and Peter's example and encourage Christians and Christian leaders who have plenty of it to share it with the People of the Lord, for whom Christ died?
Abigail: Excellent post, the website you quoted was fresh information too. I didnt catch until a few posts into this thread, that the original information on this thread goes back to November 2003, pretty old news.
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Jbarrax
My wife and our old friend Lynda C listen to Joyce Meyers and enjoy her. I've never had much patience for her myself; She seems to self-centered to me. Sort of the Christian Oprah. But not having had any particular interest in her, I've never been motivated to do any in=depth research.
plink pli
My one and a half cents worth.
Peace
JerryB
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Sushi
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sky4it
Thats 100 percent the same reason, how I became familiar with Joyce Meyers. I never really listened to a her as in a lot, as, I was too busy most of the time. Nope, I am certainly not an expert on Joyce Meyers so I shouldnt have commented on her.
Or as I look at it, lifes better on the bottom, there is a clearer view to the top. If what part of Joyce preaches is prosperity (as in finances) (I dunno , I really havent read her stuff) maybe I am better off where or just as good where I am at!
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Dot Matrix
In her conference she answered a bunch of those accusations
She said you can see the salary she draws on her website and all else is book royalities
They also had a time where she rebuttled and showed how .82 of each dollar is used directly for the projects etc. she is involved with.
She and her husband are BIG on trying to save the freedoms we are loosing in the United States
Heck, how much would a corporate person get if they travelled all over the worls? Had televison shows? And the like.
Say what you will, check her out yourselves. Go to one of her meetings. She did not charge admission. It was free
I am sure renting the place was costly
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George Aar
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Wasn't much impressed with the "audience" TYVM, but then, your mileage obviously varies...
http://gods.nl/Demotivators/pics/Delusions.jpg
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sky4it
I think the point Dot is that she is living rather large. I personally dont have a problem with that, unless they are teaching messages on tithing at the same time. I think then, its inapprobriate, because some of the people sending money in, are living paycheck to paycheck.
I think the problem people like Joyce Meyers have, is taking care of to many friends and relatives, and thinking thats the right thing to do. I think Joyce has a good heart, and means well. Also it is not uncommon in the industry for others to do this, so perhaps Joyce felt she should too (I dunno) Joyce Meyers seems to teach in her messages that sometimes its good to say NO, I think she needs to do this perhaps to somepeople around her.
I think Jesus said if people do things for purely financial gain, they have there reward. I'm not saying that statement applies 100 percent to Joyce Meyers, I dunno, thats up to you know who. I do however think that statement speaks volumes to the people who have labored under tyrants like VPW and others who have labored for absolutely no reward. The simple point being someday there will be an equalizer for all. :)
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Watered Garden
I gotta say this: If Joyce Meyer has led one soul to Christ, if she has helped one person to live the life Jesus intended, if she is setting people free from bondage, if she is teaching them to claim their rights as children of the Most High God, then God bless her!
She can have all the Cadillacs, nice hotels, employees, 18 wheelers, manicures and facelifts (or whatever she has) she wants.
Maybe it would be wise to stop looking at what she has and listen to what she says!
WG
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GarthP2000
That is exactly what televangelists want you to do. Just listen (and do) what they say. Don't look at their profiteering from their bringing 'lost souls' (and their $$$ of course) to their tent. Don't look at how they can (mis)use their religious tax exemption to profit further thereby. Don't look at whether or not their private lives match up with their teachings that they expect the rest of us to do.
Ie., Pay no attention to the man (or woman) behind the curtain.
.
.
I think not WG. Who needs that kind of 'salvation'. ..... Might as well 'take the class'!
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Belle
WG, with all due respect, that's the kind of statement that OM, Mike and WTF say about vee pee. :( The same thing people say about Benny Hinn and others.....
I don't think she should live like a pauper, but I do think her life and lifestyle should be above reproach. Based on these articles and other stuff I've read about her.... it does raise some questions. Try to find some dirt on Billy Graham and you won't be able to. He lives what he preaches.... I just think Joyce should, too.
I am happy that she is helping people, especially our beloved Dot, but I will not and do not condone her lifestyle, nor will I ignore the implications of it.
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Larry N Moore
The Total Compensation Of The Chairman of the Board
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Abigail
I have followed this thread off and on as I have had time. Maybe someone already posted this, but if not, I thought it was fitting:
READ HERE
"The ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee is investigating the financial dealings of six TV evangelists, saying donors deserve to have their "money spent as intended and in adherence with the tax code."
and
They include Joyce Meyer, one of America's wealthiest and most powerful TV preachers who has built a $124-million-a-year empire headquartered in the St. Louis suburb of Fenton.
A 2003 series in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch detailed her lavish lifestyle and blunt fundraising pitches.
"I'm following up on complaints from the public and news coverage regarding certain practices at six ministries," Grassley said in a statement.
"The allegations involve governing boards that aren't independent and allow generous salaries and housing allowances and amenities such as private jets and Rolls-Royces."
and I must add:
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Sunesis
I heard her somewhere a few times years ago - when her ministry was still small and she was struggling.
I think one of the only reasons she became so popular is because the lady is a riot. At least back then she was.
She could easily be a top comedian - her stories were hilarious. Thus, she was deemed "human" and frail like everyone else and they could relate, especially women.
I also remember thinking, this lady will go to the top. It will be interesting to see what she morphs into when the $$$ comes rolling in. Will she become a ruthless VP close behind the scenes - nasty, things to hide?
I know nothing about her now, but this debate is interesting.
I remember questioning DM and other people - asking, why does VP need the bus, airplane, fancy clothes, etc. She said because they need it to move the Word, to look the "best" as God's representative. Oh, hmmm..... I guess we were to be happy with our clothes from give away and beat up cars. I never bought it. And, true to form, the "wealth" was shared with other top leadership in TWI who were public.
Sounds like history repeating itself here with Joyce. As far as I'm concerned, once the $$ rolls in the you see the fancy compounds, house, buses, entourage, etc. - you're on your way to corruption.
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oldiesman
Golly, that sounds just like something I would say about VP... :o :D
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What The Hey
The only problem is, there has to be a whole lot of "ifs" for her to account for to justify having all those Cadillacs, nice hotel rooms, etc.
Well, that's Americanized Christianity for you. It just goes to show and to prove to people exactly what it consists of.
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oldiesman
Right on, WG!
Spiritual truth stands despite the alleged "fleshly disposition and carnality" of the communicator.
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irisheyes
A big assumption today is that the tithe belongs to the church. However the Levites, who owned nothing for themselves, were given no more than 10%. Interesting that they couldn't own land! Ever wonder why? Anyway, look at the early church. I Cor. 4:11. The evangelists then got a smaller contribution (hey, Paul wouldn't take their money), and they were themselves poor, and a major organization was structured so the redistribution of funds could be made to widows and orphans (Acts 6:1-6). Over 90% was given to the poor. When was the last time anyone taught that? Imagine what it could do to the name of Christianity if some of these megachurches used their funds to fund clean water overseas? So, Joyce Meyers shouldn't stay in a "seedy" motel? Why not? Jesus didn't even have a pillow. What does it mean to have family that is starving to death? There are people in the Body of Christ who are doing just that. There are homeless. There are junkies, and widows, and orphans, and single-moms, and whores, and kids who work for $.31/hour in deplorable conditions in Honduras so WalMart can sell $300 million a year. Who did Jesus hang with? (see proceeding sentence for answer) How can we call ourselves followers of Jesus without doing what he did, without caring about what and who he cared about? We may not all be in the position some of these "rich" leaders are in, but I wouldn't want to be in their position in the end anyway. Jesus told the rich guy to give it all up and the man walked away from him. It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle....
Anyone who thinks richness is cool should read "The Irresistible Revolution" by Shane Claiborne. Most of the above are ideas from that book. I must warn you, however, to go on a shopping spree first because you'll think twice about what you spend after you read it.
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What The Hey
I dedicate this video to all those TV Evangelists out there who believe their God's man (or woman) and have somehow been called by God.
They build their TV ministries off of people's hard earned $$$, but most people never bother to ask the very last question shown in the clip:
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irisheyes
double post
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irisheyes
double post
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Goey
Goey: I think that Christian minitries should hold themselves to a higher standard than secular busninesses. It is not so much an issue of "is it illegal" than it is one of "does it please God". Christian ministries should not only obey the law, they should also strive to please God - (assuming that God is actually involved)
Goey: I think that churches should be fully transparant to ALL , especially if they are claiming that by tithing to them, it will be multiplied back to the giver. These ministries are recruiting "secular jerks" and thier cash so I think the "secular jerks" should know where the money goes. What good reason could they have for not being fully transparant? I think I know. On the other hand, detailed financial information is readily available on any publically traded corporation, so I don't get your point in that area.Goey: And I would add, please don't overly defend them either if you don't have an inside view. Since you don't know Meyer's salary or how much she has personally gained from the donations she solicits, you would certainly not have an inside view. Given the track record of TV ministries in the past, I would be reluctant to run to their defense without some really good info. I don't really think they deserve the benefit if the doubt. Been too many scams.
Goey: Unfortunatley, since so many TV ministers have been exposed over the years as frauds, thieves and money-mongers it is understandabe that folks like Meyers get "back slaps" when they are seen living a life of extreme wealth and privilege. Fancy houses, fancy cars, etc. We know where the money comes from. The question I have is how much do they actually deserve? If they are getting wealthy off of the tithes, then it seems to me it is a business for profit and not actually a "ministry" and there should be no tax exemptions. This would be especially true if the Board of Directors is made up only of family members and lackies that are yes people to the charismatic leader.I say, if you are gonna claim the church tax breaks, open the books for all to see, otherwise close them and then be honest that it really just a business and that a few insiders are getting very rich off of the tithes and donations.
Goey: I take strong exception to this. Why would it necessarily be spiritual jealousy? I think it is more of a case of folks wanting to be taught and to learn from someone that is not getting filty rich off of their donations - where the greater part of the donations (minus reasonable expenses) goes to real charitable causes - rather than to support a lavish lifestyle for someone who claims to be a minister for God. How is that spiritual jealousy?
Goey: If it is a for profit business, then modern merchanidizing techniques are fine. Just be open as say its a business and that you are getting rich off of the tithes and "love offerings". At least that is honest.What today's so-called prophets and evangelists do is irrelevant to the issue. There is a big difference in a love offering to meet the basic needs of a minister, etc and a high tech marketing campaing that brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars which is used to keep a minister in a lavish lifestyle. Maybe you need to "get real" on this.
Goey: It is not villainizing to expect those who claim to be Christian leaders to hold themsleves to certain standards. It is not villainizing to ask these leaders to give an open accounting of finances and how much they personally gain from tithes and offerings.
The TV ministers that have fallen, fell because of their own doings, not because they were "pulled down" unjustly. I don't think anyone here is trying to "pull down" Joyce Meyers. Seem more like folks just want some answers and some facts.
Goey: 400K seems quite high to me - even for Graham. I thought is was more like 200K. But regardless, what is it that leads these ministers think they should make so much money and live lifestyles far and above those they claim to serve?
FYI, as I understand it John Haggee is one of the higest paid TV ministers today. His 2003 compensation package was reported to be about 1.2 million. The Copeland's seems to be raking in quite a bit as well. Not sure what the 990's say.
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irisheyes
Go Goey!
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Sunesis
Oldies, I don't care who Jesus ate with, that's not the point.
I don't read about Jesus amassing a material kingdom here on earth. He didn't go around in his motorcoach, latest harley, buying up property, making a compound with lots of buildings, or building a castle, or whatever wealthy people did back then - amass sheep?
Jesus Christ preached a spiritual kingdom coming - that was his message - that all are welcome - follow Him.
He himself said it is very hard for a rich man to enter the coming kingdom.
I agree - what we see here is Americanized Christianity.
There is no difference between the amassing of wealth of these televangelists and the vatican amassing their wealth. None.
It is a marriage with the world, it is creating an earthy, material kingdom, it is a making merchandise of God's people. It is enriching themselves and gorging themselves on the backs of their flock.
It is disgusting.
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Jbarrax
Thanks for posting that WTH. That brings back childhood memories. "Noah" is one of my favorite Bill Cosby recordings. (From "Bill Cosby is a Very Funny Fellow" if I remember correctly) :-)
But back to the topic at hand: Irish, good point!
I think most Churches who teach tithing don't understand (or choose to ignore) the example of the First Century Church. The monies collected after Pentecost weren't used to provide lavish offices, and build private schools for Peter & John Ministries, Inc. The purpose of the collection was to ensure that each believer had his or her needs met. This was the Apostles and Holy Spirit's response to the threats of the Pharisees and Saducees. The threats were intended to stop the believers from preaching Christ. In order to keep the follower's focus on preaching the gospel, the collection was initiated. And the stewardship thereof was intended to keep the people from having to worry about worldly issues so that they could focus on the work of the Lord.
Acts 4:31 -35
How marvelous a day it would be if the modern Church could recapture that truth and practice it!! Not everyone has a knack for running a business or selling insurance. Some of us are more suited to other things. But in our culture, it's every man for himself, so those who can make lots of money keep it or give some to the Church, while those who can't are forced to give up our opportunities to work in the Lord's fields because we have to work overtime to provide for our families. Meanwhile the fields are white, the harvest rots on the vine, and the work of the Kingdom goes undone.
Paul also refers to this in II Corinthians chapter 8:12 -15. Again we see that the collection was not a tithe, was not compulsory, and was not intended to generate gobs of money to support the apostles and prophets. Verse 15 sums up the purpose of the collection.
So the First Century Church didn't collect money from the followers so they could "fund outreach". The outreach was accomplished by the believers preaching the gospel. I wasn't around back then, but it seems to me that part of the witness of those common folks talking to their friends and neighbors about the Lord was the fact that they didn't have to worry about how they were going to survive because the ekklesia took care of itself. In our modern socioeconomically tainted brand of conservativism, it's anathema to suggest such a practice because Good Republicans know that's communism and communism is equivalent to atheism. Better dead than red Fred!
So rather than contribute what we don't need to meet the needs of them who don't have enough, those who have an abundance are encouraged to tithe so that wealthy people can get more wealth and their favorite evangelists can live like wealthy people. Meanwhile those who don't have enough are encouraged to tithe, even though they can't afford to, so that God will miraculously pour goods and services upon their heads. But don't ask us to help brother, the Lord will provide.
Hog--I say, HOGWASH! I tithed faithfully for over ten years and all it got me was deep into debt. I finally woke up and re-read the Scriptures and realized I was giving away what God had sent to supply our needs. By tithing, I was creating lack from God's supply. And of course, when I needed something, there was rarely any miracle money sent through the "windows of heaven". So I borrowed. and I borrowed. and then dang it, I had to borrow some more.
Finally, after I realized the New Testament doesn't support all this tithing nonsense, I stopped it and began saving money instead. It was one of the best decisions I ever made.
Now some of you will argue and say that you tithe and it works for you. That's nice. I'm happy for ya. But here's what I've learned over the past 25 years of praying and working and believing. Money is a man-made invention and God doesn't have any. The only way to acquire money is to get it from other people. And if we're going to recognize that basic truth, why not go all the way and follow Paul and Peter's example and encourage Christians and Christian leaders who have plenty of it to share it with the People of the Lord, for whom Christ died?
Think about it
JerryB
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sky4it
Abigail: Excellent post, the website you quoted was fresh information too. I didnt catch until a few posts into this thread, that the original information on this thread goes back to November 2003, pretty old news.
Cheers :)
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