The health and wealth ministries use their wealth and good health and big numbers as proof that they are the right way. But since not everyone winds up healthy and or wealthy, then they have to have plan B--"That person is not walking right in their believing." Condemnation moves in, compassion goes out the window. People who are poor or ill deserve it due to their lack of faith etc.
People start pretending they have health and wealth they don't really have. Appearance--great clothes, cars etc, becomes important. Charitable causes then suffer, because followers are spending tons to keep up with the Jones Believers. Then they can no longer have real friends, because a friend will know the truth...so they have to have a pedestal of godly leadership authority to stand upon, where they breathe higher aire then the rest of the peons...
Brides website had more pleas for money than does my writing business website. I just have a sale page link!
I believe there are two links the last time I looked. Asking for prayer, volunteers, etc offends you. I believe then you know the choices available.....
Have you ever met the Lord brideofjc?
If you haven't then how could you make him Lord.
Your idea of who you think he is may differ greatly from who is.
Try Romans 10:9-10, that will start you, the HS then comes to reside and you meet the
Goey: First of all, Meyer did not choose to release the records. They only became public records after she sued to regain tax exempt status. Then after the records became public and her salary known, she took a large cut in salary due to the pressure of public opinion. my guess is for appearance sake. However, at the same time she took the pay cut, she started collecting huge royalties from the sale of her books and tapes, basically bringing her personal income back up close to the 900K per year range.
[/b]
Goey: You have no clue at all what anyone is or is not willing to work for or what their calling may or may not be. All were not "called" to be mnisters that live a lavish lifestyle made possible by the tithes and donations of their "flock". Some have certainly been called to other things, so it is errant and might I say unthinking to assume that because they are not striving to run a world wide ministry that they are "inactive" or "unwilling" or have a spirit of jealousy.
There are other Christian activities beside being a rich mass media "minister", many of which may be even more noble. So it does not necessarily follow that inactivity/ jealously is the cause of the alleged "flame". Have you ever actually considered that it may not please God for someone to become weathy by selling his Word for personal gain? And that it may be even more unpleasing to sell something other than his Word in His name for personal profit? Or does pleasing God even matter to you as long as the coffers and pews are full and the money is rolling in?
I recall a verse that says something like: Freely you have received so also give freely. It seems that modern Christianity has become so twisted that many now believe the opposite. Something like: Pay and make 'em pay and make a nice profit while you're at it .
If your ministry is of God and you are truly called, I wish you well and Godspeed. However if you seek to gain personal wealth from your ministry and /or knowlgly teach something other than God's Word to itching ears, I hope your ministy fails miserably and God deals with you justly.
But you have just made my point for me. Do you know what is in Joyce Meyers' heart? Isn't that the Lord's domain? And yes, when people wantonly flame someone because they have a successful ministry...where is their heart. Why don't they just say, God Bless, I hope you're really doing the work of the Lord, and then just leave it at that.
Kinda like that even today, people are still flaming Swaggart...what is it....20 years later for his sins? If only we could know what these people's sins were as well. Swaggart had the misfortune of being in the public eye. So does Joyce.
This is laughable. I read the article. This is what was stated:
"A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100."
Nowhere is there anything that assumes or implies that the lady was poor, unable to pay her bills, or living on the street. It was a simple statement of fact of what was observed. " A lady in a wheelchair worote out a check for $100." That's it, nothing more.
A statement cannot make an inferrence. By definition the "inferrence" is made by by the person hearing the statement. A statement can only imply something. You apparantly don't understand the difference between imply and infer. (Critical Thinking 101). What seems to have happened is that YOU inferred an implication based upon nothing at all, except possibly your own zeal to errantly or falsely portray a simple statement of fact as "yellow journalism".
This is a classic example of intellectual dishonesty or errant logic. Whether intentionally dishonest or not, only you would know.
Look at the other snippets surrounding that....i.e. (paraphrase) Joyce gets rich while those who are her donors basically get poorer and poorer. No the inference was correct. I didn't lift it out of its context.
Ummmm, Janice, where did you get ordained and what Bible are you using? Is it missing scriptures? :unsure: And why do none of your cohorts want to be associated with your website?
Matthew 23 addresses this:
v5 - But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
v6 - And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
v7 - And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
v8 - But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
v.10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Rabbi simply is for those in that day and today for that matter of someone who is learned in the Scriptures. This is what Master means as well in the Greek. Kurios is used for Master/Lord which means obviously that they are over you, most likely in training, authority etc etc.
Well, then please explain why the Lord Jesus never reproved those who called him
Rabbi? This would be on the same level today as Reverend and/or Doctor. Just a different century, Cman.
Rabbi simply is for those in that day and today for that matter of someone who is learned in the Scriptures. This is what Master means as well in the Greek. Kurios is used for Master/Lord which means obviously that they are over you, most likely in training, authority etc etc.
You're contradicting yourself, darlin'. :)
You said Jesus never reproved anyone for calling him rabbi and I showed you where he did. Not only that, he put us all on the same level and part of one whole - each one equally important.
Regarding pleas for money - the folks I know who are genuinely interested in helping folks offer something of value - I see nothing of value on your site - just pleas for money and a book for sale. Given the condescending attitude with which you post here, I tend to think that your book is no value either.
If you really want to help folks - why not donate your time? There are plenty of organizations that could use some help - the last thing we need is yet another ministry. I have several lay ministers in my family. They never asked for offerings or money and they have never lived off the tithes of their respective churches. So don't tell me you need to ask for money, honey. I know true ministers don't - they don't need to.
Give and it shall be given to you .... what are you giving, other than threats of hell, condemnation and being spit out of some guy's mouth? Is that really how one brings a person to the lord? That's behavior your god approves of?
But you have just made my point for me. Do you know what is in Joyce Meyers' heart? Isn't that the Lord's domain? And yes, when people wantonly flame someone because they have a successful ministry...where is their heart. Why don't they just say, God Bless, I hope you're really doing the work of the Lord, and then just leave it at that.
No, I don't know what's in her heart. But I do know about how much money her and her family are taking out of the ministry. And by several accounts, in her conferences, more time is spent pitching/selling books & tapes and asking for money than is spent actually teaching/preaching. One does not have to see directly into the heart to understand a big focus in her "ministry" .
On the other hand, YOU seem to know what's in folks hearts when they question the legality, ethics and morality of TV ministers making huge personal profits by selling what they say is the Word of God. You say that those that raise concerns and questions have a "spirit of jealousy". Isn't that the Lord's Domain? You exempt yourself of course. Not surprising.
Look at the other snippets surrounding that....i.e. (paraphrase) Joyce gets rich while those who are her donors basically get poorer and poorer. No the inference was correct. I didn't lift it out of its context.
I looked several times. It's simply not there. Your inference is bogus and unrelated to the actual content of the article. The fact that you made the inference and conjured up images of a poor, destitute, street woman in your mind is telling.
The sentene before spoke of a middle aged man in "worn jeans". Does that neccessisarily mean the man couldnt afford new jeans? No, Lot of people, myself included, prefer to wear worn jeans. We can ever buy the pre-worn. It seems to me that if the writer of the article can describe a man in "worn jeans", then that writer, if a "yellow journalist" would have been much more descriptive of the woman in the wheelchair. The writer was not.
I challenge you to make an intelligent and cogent argument showing how and where that article implied or suggested that the lady in the wheelchair was either poor, unable to pay her bills, or living on the streets as you inferred. Make your case. Don't just declare it by fiat.
Im betting that you won't do it becasue you can't do it.
It seems your writing here is more "yellow" (biased) than journalist you accuse of such.
You said Jesus never reproved anyone for calling him rabbi and I showed you where he did. Not only that, he put us all on the same level and part of one whole - each one equally important.
Regarding pleas for money - the folks I know who are genuinely interested in helping folks offer something of value - I see nothing of value on your site - just pleas for money and a book for sale. Given the condescending attitude with which you post here, I tend to think that your book is no value either.
If you really want to help folks - why not donate your time? There are plenty of organizations that could use some help - the last thing we need is yet another ministry. I have several lay ministers in my family. They never asked for offerings or money and they have never lived off the tithes of their respective churches. So don't tell me you need to ask for money, honey. I know true ministers don't - they don't need to.
Give and it shall be given to you .... what are you giving, other than threats of hell, condemnation and being spit out of some guy's mouth? Is that really how one brings a person to the lord? That's behavior your god approves of?
No thanks. I'll take my chances.
Threats of hell? Condemnation? Where did I post that? Being spit out of The Lord's mouth was another poster's comment regarding Joyce. I simply reminded him that it might be him and not Joyce. Please read more carefully. I do donate my time.
BrideofJC posted: No, I don't know what's in her heart. But I do know about how much money her and her family are taking out of the ministry. And by several accounts, in her conferences, more time is spent pitching/selling books & tapes and asking for money than is spent actually teaching/preaching. One does not have to see directly into the heart to understand a big focus in her "ministry" .
On the other hand, YOU seem to know what's in folks hearts when they question the legality, ethics and morality of TV ministers making huge personal profits by selling what they say is the Word of God. You say that those that raise concerns and questions have a "spirit of jealousy". Isn't that the Lord's Domain? You exempt yourself of course. Not surprising.
I looked several times. It's simply not there. Your inference is bogus and unrelated to the actual content of the article. The fact that you made the inference and conjured up images of a poor, destitute, street woman in your mind is telling.
The sentene before spoke of a middle aged man in "worn jeans". Does that neccessisarily mean the man couldnt afford new jeans? No, Lot of people, myself included, prefer to wear worn jeans. We can ever buy the pre-worn. It seems to me that if the writer of the article can describe a man in "worn jeans", then that writer, if a "yellow journalist" would have been much more descriptive of the woman in the wheelchair. The writer was not.
I challenge you to make an intelligent and cogent argument showing how and where that article implied or suggested that the lady in the wheelchair was either poor, unable to pay her bills, or living on the streets as you inferred. Make your case. Don't just declare it by fiat.
Im betting that you won't do it becasue you can't do it.
It seems your writing here is more "yellow" (biased) than journalist you accuse of such.
Meyer then delivered her sermon for giving. She told them that some Christians are worried that if they give it all, they will end up with nothing. If they give, she said, they can expect much more in return.
“Sowing and reaping is a law,” Meyer told the Buffalo audience. “If you sow, you will reap. I believe stingy people are very unhappy people. I want you to give your best offering. I believe one person could write one check to cover all of the expenses of this one conference.”
A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100.
Right here is what I was speaking about. "Meyer delivers sermon...(1 snippet)" "Sowing and reaping...one person could cover expenses....(2nd snippet)" Now here they focus on middle aged man (who cares what age they are?) and no less he's wearing worn jeans (again, whether you choose to buy worn jeans or they simply wore out, this journalist is attempting to highlight and make it seem that this man (whether he can or not isn't the point) is giving money to Joyce when perhaps he should be saving for retirement and buying himself new clothes. Next part of the same snippet, "an elderly woman" (again why highlight the age? Part of setting it up to look bad for Joyce. She's conning the middle aged and the elderly into giving her money. No, once again the inference is obvious. This journalist knows the right tactics to color his target. If the journalist was going to be fair about the whole thing...leave out the age and their dress OR also point out in your article the rich executive businesswoman wearing 5th avenue clothing and impeccably coifed hair etc etc. No, my argument was just fine, you just simply don't want to admit it.
If you don't like Joyce...don't watch her or bother to follow her. I do the same on my TV...if I don't like the program, I click my remote to another channel. All done...no more problem. Whether or not Joyce has money or not, I'm not the one who will stand and be judged because of her...she'll have to stand there herself. Perhaps, she is doing the Lord's will. I don't know. That's between her and the Lord and no one else.
Well then, if Joyce Meyer and how other people view her is neither the here nor there with you, why do you care if she is 'judged' by others or not. How does it affect your life, and your 'ministry'?
She and her actions will be judged by the public at large; that's what to expect when she is a public figure. Ie., it's going to happen, and she needs to realize that, learn how to take the initiative to show how honest she 'supposedly' is to honestly answer her critics, ... and grow up. Just simply making the claim that she's doing what she's doing in The Lord's Service isn't and shouldn't be good enough.
Meyer then delivered her sermon for giving. She told them that some Christians are worried that if they give it all, they will end up with nothing. If they give, she said, they can expect much more in return.
"Sowing and reaping is a law," Meyer told the Buffalo audience. "If you sow, you will reap. I believe stingy people are very unhappy people. I want you to give your best offering. I believe one person could write one check to cover all of the expenses of this one conference."
A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100.
So Meyer gives a sermon for "giving". Giving to whom? Suprise ! Give to Joyce of course. Then shes says that sowing and reaping is a "law" puting it in the same category as the 10 commandments - law. Then she says that stingy people are unhappy - all of this implying that if you don't give you are not only breaking a law, you are stingy and unhappy. So "give your best offereing she says". Then after telling them that they would be breaking a law and will be unhappy if they don't give ( to her), by playing on the fears which she created, she attempts to get someone to write a check for tens of thousands of dollars. Hey, worth a shot huh?
By Bride of JC:
Right here is what I was speaking about. "Meyer delivers sermon...(1 snippet)" "Sowing and reaping...one person could cover expenses....(2nd snippet)" Now here they focus on middle aged man (who cares what age they are?) and no less he's wearing worn jeans (again, whether you choose to buy worn jeans or they simply wore out, this journalist is attempting to highlight and make it seem that this man (whether he can or not isn't the point) is giving money to Joyce when perhaps he should be saving for retirement and buying himself new clothes. Next part of the same snippet, "an elderly woman" (again why highlight the age? Part of setting it up to look bad for Joyce. She's conning the middle aged and the elderly into giving her money. No, once again the inference is obvious.
Typical Word-Faith sermon. However, a once sentence statement (man in jeans) cannot honestly be construed as the focus. It is a small part of the context. More was written about the sermon, which you conveniently gloss over. I take it that you must believe in that that twisted word-faith swill?
This journalist knows the right tactics to color his target. If the journalist was going to be fair about the whole thing...leave out the age and their dress OR also point out in your article the rich executive businesswoman wearing 5th avenue clothing and impeccably coifed hair etc etc.
The journalist does not need to use any special tacticts other than stating simple facts. The con job is self-evident even if the statements about the man in jeans and the woman in the wheelchair were completly ommited from the article. But, it seems if it were up to you, you would supress or alter the facts by ommission to pain your lady in a more positive light . Leave out the fact that someone is in a wheelchair, or that a man happens to be weaing jeans. God forbid, that someone might accidentally get the wrong impression! You focus on trivial facts such as the man in jeans or the lady in a wheelchair in your zeal to portray the journalist as evil, while you ignore or condone the spiritual and monetary con job going on.
If you don't like Joyce...don't watch her or bother to follow her. I do the same on my TV...if I don't like the program, I click my remote to another channel. All done...no more problem. Whether or not Joyce has money or not, I'm not the one who will stand and be judged because of her...she'll have to stand there herself. Perhaps, she is doing the Lord's will. I don't know. That's between her and the Lord and no one else.
I totally disagree that "It's between her and the Lord and no one else" . That kind of thinking suggest that we should turn a blind eye to evil and injustice. Would you defend a murderer in the same manner? -- A rapist? -- A burglar? -- A shoplifter? -- A crooked politician? - Corporate fraud? --- Oh, that's beween them and God - none ya business!
Or........ are only women preachers that bilk their flocks exempt?
So Meyer gives a sermon for "giving". Giving to whom? Suprise ! Give to Joyce of course.
No, no, no, Goey. Ms. Meyer is performing a vital service. People apparently aren't bright enough to know where their disposable income can go to help the disadvantaged. Ms. Meyer has a direct line to the Almighty who tells her where the "ABS" will do the most good.
Thus Bride really shows where this 'root of bitterness' really is: The song-and-dance, money-bilking production that goes on by these 'servents of The Lord'.
Now why submit to this kind of Lord to begin with? ... H-e-l-l, NO!
So Meyer gives a sermon for "giving". Giving to whom? Suprise ! Give to Joyce of course. Then shes says that sowing and reaping is a "law" puting it in the same category as the 10 commandments - law. Then she says that stingy people are unhappy - all of this implying that if you don't give you are not only breaking a law, you are stingy and unhappy. So "give your best offereing she says". Then after telling them that they would be breaking a law and will be unhappy if they don't give ( to her), by playing on the fears which she created, she attempts to get someone to write a check for tens of thousands of dollars. Hey, worth a shot huh?
Typical Word-Faith sermon. However, a once sentence statement (man in jeans) cannot honestly be construed as the focus. It is a small part of the context. More was written about the sermon, which you conveniently gloss over. I take it that you must believe in that that twisted word-faith swill?
The journalist does not need to use any special tacticts other than stating simple facts. The con job is self-evident even if the statements about the man in jeans and the woman in the wheelchair were completly ommited from the article. But, it seems if it were up to you, you would supress or alter the facts by ommission to pain your lady in a more positive light . Leave out the fact that someone is in a wheelchair, or that a man happens to be weaing jeans. God forbid, that someone might accidentally get the wrong impression! You focus on trivial facts such as the man in jeans or the lady in a wheelchair in your zeal to portray the journalist as evil, while you ignore or condone the spiritual and monetary con job going on.
I totally disagree that "It's between her and the Lord and no one else" . That kind of thinking suggest that we should turn a blind eye to evil and injustice. Would you defend a murderer in the same manner? -- A rapist? -- A burglar? -- A shoplifter? -- A crooked politician? - Corporate fraud? --- Oh, that's beween them and God - none ya business!
Or........ are only women preachers that bilk their flocks exempt?
But I did notice Goey that you LEFT OUT and glossed over my statement about the journalist being fair...if you're going to have a balanced unbiased article, then list both or all types of people. However, if the person who gathered all of these snippets together in one place for the reading public's enjoyment, if they lifted it out of the original context then the yellow journalism award goes to that person. Despite what you may think, when you present a biased one-sided report it is called yellow journalism. Journalists know full well how to inflame the public by what they write, especially if they've been at it for a long time.
As far as some of the other evildoers you mention, crooked politician...no the journalists flame them too. Whatever happened to unbiased reporting...like the opening line of Hawaii 5-0 - "Just the facts, Ma'am!"
Yes, indeed, God Forbid, Goey that someone might be flaming someone without warrant, without knowing the true facts! If you think that Joyce Meyers is bilking the public...most people have a telephone and know how to dial 9-1-1. Do avail yourself of every legal injunction that you and your lawyers can dream up. Instead of just flaming her...you just might win your case.
Cman, if it's the moral question that's the issue how do you deal with the scriptures that refer to supporting those who preach the word (and doesn't say we have a right to know how they steward it)? If it's immoral for them to ask for donations then every single Christian denomination is immoral in that I don't think a one of them doesn't ask for donations.
sorry a$$hole, i didn't say anything you imply i said in post #145 of this thread.
Hmm . . . . it's going to be like that, huh cman? I didn't say you implied anything -- I asked you a question (without getting snotty with you or calling you names) and this is the way you respond. Good grief, my man. Pitiful -- truly pitiful.
I think cman was referring to _how_ said donations are acquired that determines whether or not it is moral.
But then again, I could be mistaken.
Well, I suppose some prefer to just pass the basket, while others prefer to ask you to support their ministry. Either way I don't see anything immoral about asking. It's not exactly as if those who contribute are being forced to donate. Maybe it's just a simple case that those who do support their ministry think it's a small thing to do in comparison to what they get out of those ministries. Most people won't give if there's nothing in it for them personally -- whatever that might be. I always did find it odd that people claimed their donations on their IRS forms -- How can you say you gave $10 if you got back $1?
I once attended a church that never passed any kind of money-holding recepticle. No plate, basket, charger, horn - nothing.
There was a wooden mainbox looking thing at the back and people put in what they wanted to put it. There was no pressure and no requests for money.
I also have a friend that attends a church in Kansas. The ministers keep their day jobs and trade off duties. On top of that, they live simply - no extravagance whatsoever. They feel like they need to let as much as much money as possible go to the church.
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cman
Charities are people helping people.
And I already know what the bible says about money. Thank you.
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brideofjc
I believe there are two links the last time I looked. Asking for prayer, volunteers, etc offends you. I believe then you know the choices available.....
Try Romans 10:9-10, that will start you, the HS then comes to reside and you meet the
Lord on a very personal basis. Hope you have.
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cman
yeah right.....
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brideofjc
But you have just made my point for me. Do you know what is in Joyce Meyers' heart? Isn't that the Lord's domain? And yes, when people wantonly flame someone because they have a successful ministry...where is their heart. Why don't they just say, God Bless, I hope you're really doing the work of the Lord, and then just leave it at that.
Kinda like that even today, people are still flaming Swaggart...what is it....20 years later for his sins? If only we could know what these people's sins were as well. Swaggart had the misfortune of being in the public eye. So does Joyce.
Look at the other snippets surrounding that....i.e. (paraphrase) Joyce gets rich while those who are her donors basically get poorer and poorer. No the inference was correct. I didn't lift it out of its context.
Rabbi simply is for those in that day and today for that matter of someone who is learned in the Scriptures. This is what Master means as well in the Greek. Kurios is used for Master/Lord which means obviously that they are over you, most likely in training, authority etc etc.
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cman
Does anyone see why the 'strong man' must be bound in order for the Lord to work?
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sky4it
Oldiesman:
Do you know Joyce Meyers personally? If you know her personally do you know her really really really well?
Sometimes getting the boat out of the boathouse is the way to solve the problems.
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Belle
You're contradicting yourself, darlin'. :)
You said Jesus never reproved anyone for calling him rabbi and I showed you where he did. Not only that, he put us all on the same level and part of one whole - each one equally important.
Regarding pleas for money - the folks I know who are genuinely interested in helping folks offer something of value - I see nothing of value on your site - just pleas for money and a book for sale. Given the condescending attitude with which you post here, I tend to think that your book is no value either.
If you really want to help folks - why not donate your time? There are plenty of organizations that could use some help - the last thing we need is yet another ministry. I have several lay ministers in my family. They never asked for offerings or money and they have never lived off the tithes of their respective churches. So don't tell me you need to ask for money, honey. I know true ministers don't - they don't need to.
Give and it shall be given to you .... what are you giving, other than threats of hell, condemnation and being spit out of some guy's mouth? Is that really how one brings a person to the lord? That's behavior your god approves of?
No thanks. I'll take my chances.
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GarthP2000
Seems like Loy Boy taught her well. <_<
Ditto for me too!
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Goey
BrideofJC posted:
No, I don't know what's in her heart. But I do know about how much money her and her family are taking out of the ministry. And by several accounts, in her conferences, more time is spent pitching/selling books & tapes and asking for money than is spent actually teaching/preaching. One does not have to see directly into the heart to understand a big focus in her "ministry" .On the other hand, YOU seem to know what's in folks hearts when they question the legality, ethics and morality of TV ministers making huge personal profits by selling what they say is the Word of God. You say that those that raise concerns and questions have a "spirit of jealousy". Isn't that the Lord's Domain? You exempt yourself of course. Not surprising.
I looked several times. It's simply not there. Your inference is bogus and unrelated to the actual content of the article. The fact that you made the inference and conjured up images of a poor, destitute, street woman in your mind is telling.
The sentene before spoke of a middle aged man in "worn jeans". Does that neccessisarily mean the man couldnt afford new jeans? No, Lot of people, myself included, prefer to wear worn jeans. We can ever buy the pre-worn. It seems to me that if the writer of the article can describe a man in "worn jeans", then that writer, if a "yellow journalist" would have been much more descriptive of the woman in the wheelchair. The writer was not.
I challenge you to make an intelligent and cogent argument showing how and where that article implied or suggested that the lady in the wheelchair was either poor, unable to pay her bills, or living on the streets as you inferred. Make your case. Don't just declare it by fiat.
Im betting that you won't do it becasue you can't do it.
It seems your writing here is more "yellow" (biased) than journalist you accuse of such.
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brideofjc
Threats of hell? Condemnation? Where did I post that? Being spit out of The Lord's mouth was another poster's comment regarding Joyce. I simply reminded him that it might be him and not Joyce. Please read more carefully. I do donate my time.
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brideofjc
Meyer then delivered her sermon for giving. She told them that some Christians are worried that if they give it all, they will end up with nothing. If they give, she said, they can expect much more in return.
“Sowing and reaping is a law,” Meyer told the Buffalo audience. “If you sow, you will reap. I believe stingy people are very unhappy people. I want you to give your best offering. I believe one person could write one check to cover all of the expenses of this one conference.”
A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100.
Right here is what I was speaking about. "Meyer delivers sermon...(1 snippet)" "Sowing and reaping...one person could cover expenses....(2nd snippet)" Now here they focus on middle aged man (who cares what age they are?) and no less he's wearing worn jeans (again, whether you choose to buy worn jeans or they simply wore out, this journalist is attempting to highlight and make it seem that this man (whether he can or not isn't the point) is giving money to Joyce when perhaps he should be saving for retirement and buying himself new clothes. Next part of the same snippet, "an elderly woman" (again why highlight the age? Part of setting it up to look bad for Joyce. She's conning the middle aged and the elderly into giving her money. No, once again the inference is obvious. This journalist knows the right tactics to color his target. If the journalist was going to be fair about the whole thing...leave out the age and their dress OR also point out in your article the rich executive businesswoman wearing 5th avenue clothing and impeccably coifed hair etc etc. No, my argument was just fine, you just simply don't want to admit it.
If you don't like Joyce...don't watch her or bother to follow her. I do the same on my TV...if I don't like the program, I click my remote to another channel. All done...no more problem. Whether or not Joyce has money or not, I'm not the one who will stand and be judged because of her...she'll have to stand there herself. Perhaps, she is doing the Lord's will. I don't know. That's between her and the Lord and no one else.
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GarthP2000
Well then, if Joyce Meyer and how other people view her is neither the here nor there with you, why do you care if she is 'judged' by others or not. How does it affect your life, and your 'ministry'?
She and her actions will be judged by the public at large; that's what to expect when she is a public figure. Ie., it's going to happen, and she needs to realize that, learn how to take the initiative to show how honest she 'supposedly' is to honestly answer her critics, ... and grow up. Just simply making the claim that she's doing what she's doing in The Lord's Service isn't and shouldn't be good enough.
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Goey
So Meyer gives a sermon for "giving". Giving to whom? Suprise ! Give to Joyce of course. Then shes says that sowing and reaping is a "law" puting it in the same category as the 10 commandments - law. Then she says that stingy people are unhappy - all of this implying that if you don't give you are not only breaking a law, you are stingy and unhappy. So "give your best offereing she says". Then after telling them that they would be breaking a law and will be unhappy if they don't give ( to her), by playing on the fears which she created, she attempts to get someone to write a check for tens of thousands of dollars. Hey, worth a shot huh?
Typical Word-Faith sermon. However, a once sentence statement (man in jeans) cannot honestly be construed as the focus. It is a small part of the context. More was written about the sermon, which you conveniently gloss over. I take it that you must believe in that that twisted word-faith swill?The journalist does not need to use any special tacticts other than stating simple facts. The con job is self-evident even if the statements about the man in jeans and the woman in the wheelchair were completly ommited from the article. But, it seems if it were up to you, you would supress or alter the facts by ommission to pain your lady in a more positive light . Leave out the fact that someone is in a wheelchair, or that a man happens to be weaing jeans. God forbid, that someone might accidentally get the wrong impression! You focus on trivial facts such as the man in jeans or the lady in a wheelchair in your zeal to portray the journalist as evil, while you ignore or condone the spiritual and monetary con job going on.
I totally disagree that "It's between her and the Lord and no one else" . That kind of thinking suggest that we should turn a blind eye to evil and injustice. Would you defend a murderer in the same manner? -- A rapist? -- A burglar? -- A shoplifter? -- A crooked politician? - Corporate fraud? --- Oh, that's beween them and God - none ya business!
Or........ are only women preachers that bilk their flocks exempt?
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Sushi
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GarthP2000
Thus Bride really shows where this 'root of bitterness' really is: The song-and-dance, money-bilking production that goes on by these 'servents of The Lord'.
Now why submit to this kind of Lord to begin with? ... H-e-l-l, NO!
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Sunnyfla
Not to change the subject....
I was just in Lifeway Christian Book Store, which is pretty big here in So. Fla. and they told me that they Do Not sell any of
Joyce Meyer material anymore. I asked why, and the manager said they weren't allowed to talk about it, but I could look it
up on thier website to find out.
;)
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brideofjc
But I did notice Goey that you LEFT OUT and glossed over my statement about the journalist being fair...if you're going to have a balanced unbiased article, then list both or all types of people. However, if the person who gathered all of these snippets together in one place for the reading public's enjoyment, if they lifted it out of the original context then the yellow journalism award goes to that person. Despite what you may think, when you present a biased one-sided report it is called yellow journalism. Journalists know full well how to inflame the public by what they write, especially if they've been at it for a long time.
As far as some of the other evildoers you mention, crooked politician...no the journalists flame them too. Whatever happened to unbiased reporting...like the opening line of Hawaii 5-0 - "Just the facts, Ma'am!"
Yes, indeed, God Forbid, Goey that someone might be flaming someone without warrant, without knowing the true facts! If you think that Joyce Meyers is bilking the public...most people have a telephone and know how to dial 9-1-1. Do avail yourself of every legal injunction that you and your lawyers can dream up. Instead of just flaming her...you just might win your case.
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cman
That was Dragnet, not Hawaii 5-0.
And it's not illegal to solicit donations.
It's the morals in question.
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Larry N Moore
Cman, if it's the moral question that's the issue how do you deal with the scriptures that refer to supporting those who preach the word (and doesn't say we have a right to know how they steward it)? If it's immoral for them to ask for donations then every single Christian denomination is immoral in that I don't think a one of them doesn't ask for donations.
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cman
sorry a$$hole, i didn't say anything you imply i said in post #145 of this thread.
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Larry N Moore
Hmm . . . . it's going to be like that, huh cman? I didn't say you implied anything -- I asked you a question (without getting snotty with you or calling you names) and this is the way you respond. Good grief, my man. Pitiful -- truly pitiful.
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GarthP2000
I think cman was referring to _how_ said donations are acquired that determines whether or not it is moral.
But then again, I could be mistaken.
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Larry N Moore
Well, I suppose some prefer to just pass the basket, while others prefer to ask you to support their ministry. Either way I don't see anything immoral about asking. It's not exactly as if those who contribute are being forced to donate. Maybe it's just a simple case that those who do support their ministry think it's a small thing to do in comparison to what they get out of those ministries. Most people won't give if there's nothing in it for them personally -- whatever that might be. I always did find it odd that people claimed their donations on their IRS forms -- How can you say you gave $10 if you got back $1?
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doojable
Just a drive-by post here...
I once attended a church that never passed any kind of money-holding recepticle. No plate, basket, charger, horn - nothing.
There was a wooden mainbox looking thing at the back and people put in what they wanted to put it. There was no pressure and no requests for money.
I also have a friend that attends a church in Kansas. The ministers keep their day jobs and trade off duties. On top of that, they live simply - no extravagance whatsoever. They feel like they need to let as much as much money as possible go to the church.
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