Discerning of spirits

[socks]

If we're talking about the movie, the climate and interest it supposedly created (and I apparently missed) and the VPster capitalizing on it (the movie, climate, etc.), I would say no. If we want to say well, yeah, of course he did, he was a hayseed grifter who wouldn't have missed any chance I can dream up to attribute to him, then sure.

Of course. ALWAYS. Wouldn't have had it any other way, if he'd had the opportunity which even if he didn't he probably would have wished he'd had, if he would have known, which he probably did anyway which I can't prove but I don't even need to, the facts speak for themselves and everyone who knew him like you-hoo knew him would know that if he'd had the chance to he would have, it's so simple only a dolt wouldn't see it which is why it's so obvious, I mean, really, the facts speak for themselves when you think about it. Really. Not that I'm saying he did, but I'm just sayin'....y'know. Come on. Case closed.

Edited November 16, 2007 by socks

[Bumpy]

Yeah.. threats of eminent possession.. I think that was one of the things that helped me loosen the grip..

I saw preachers in other demoninations threaten the flock, not with possession.. but dangers of hayull fire.. if they didn't accept the authority "gawd" and "the word" gave him.. with pretty close to the same demeanor, spittle flying out into the front row..

I thought, how.. ignorant. Then I thought again.. hmm. how ignorant..

Hamm, if the debil didn’t get you possessed and all, how did you end up as a squirrel? btw. Have you ever “made it” wiz a franch squirrel”? There’s a few who could use a warm squirrel pelt down the street from me! meeeoooww!

[Ham]

I dunno.. one day, I walked out of "twig", and the next thing I knew, *poof*.

Actually, if I HAVE to be something.. I'd rather be something small..

besides, can't have people take me too seriously.. at the end of the day, it's just the word of a squirrel..

[waysider]

Didn't Rosemary's Boo-Boo predate this by a couple years?

I never really saw the whole movie(on account of I went to see it at the Drive-In. )

Lookin' back, though, you would think Rosemary's Babushka would have put a serious damper on any activity that was known to take place at the Drive-In.

Edited November 17, 2007 by waysider

[Ham]

I remember that movie.. and it was at a drive in theater!

My brother's friend absolutely devoured a pizza with the hottest items known to man.. along with anchovies and who knows what else..

then he chugged down about two quarts of beer..

I was probably 14. They somehow got me in an R movie..

but it was raining, and raining..

and the poor guy with a pizza and two quarts of beer was busy with dry heaves just outside the car..

it was a "memorable" night, but not because of the movie..

Oh. Trivia buffs.. who was "daddy" in the movie?

Edited November 17, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[another spot]

I haven’t read this entire thread, but I didn’t see any indication the original question got answered. Maybe it was and I missed it. In any case:

1Ki 22:19 And he (Micaiah) said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

1Ki 22:21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

There’s no indication they were healed or delivered. Or not. This is something Micaiah knew after the fact. He didn’t look at them and know they were possessed. This sounds more like word of knowledge to me.

As to what the practical application looks like? Strangely Scripture is silent about that.

Mar 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

Mar 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

Mar 9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

Mar 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

If you read the entire record, you will see no verse states anyone (including the father) got revelation the child was possessed. One could argue it’s implied, but still I find it odd. I found this to be the consistent pattern. We only have the assumption of others that d. of s. in I Cor. 12 refers to detecting spirit. Could be true, and could be false. I’m not sure at this point. No question twi used it abusively.

“It is to discern, detect, be made aware of their presence, and to determine their identity, whether they be the spirits of the devil (diabolos), the holy spirit, or the spirit of man. If evil, whether they may be cast out (this requires the manifestation of Workings of Miracles).”

There is no record in the N. T. whatsoever of anyone at all discerning H. S. or spirit of man. Working of miracles? Maybe. All instances referred to it as “healing” or “healed.” Saul got delivered from an evil spirit because David played music. “Many” who were possessed got healed when Jesus taught. Manifestations weren’t involved at all.

[another spot]

P. S.

I have no issue with folks who feel they sensed someone was born again or some such. My issue is vp’s definition of d. of s. is non-Scriptural. Take non-presence of a spirit. Is there Scriptural evidence of that? Nooooooo….What about permission to cast it out if evil? Noooooooooooooo….A definition of a Biblical concept should have Scriptural backup. I should think.

Just venting, but I really do find it irritating to have to spend so much time unraveling this stuff. Time and time again I find vp adding, subracting and taking things out of context. I only take the time to sort it out because I know if I don’t it still lurks in my brain. If you leave the dust balls in your house, they remain.

Special note to Cinder: With very few exceptions people were healed of spirits as God’s sovereign will to redeem and heal. In all cases it glorified God. Not once was it ever to persecute, hurt, or demean. That’s just plain evil. There is no record of someone born again being possessed. Does that mean it can’t happen? I dunno.

Does anyone know the definition of “diakrisis” (discerning) as relates to I Cor. 12? It has several meanings according to Thayer’s along the lines of separate, distinguish or judge. What did this word mean at the time?

We are told in I John to test the spirits whether they are from God in the context of false teaching. It seems to me that is vastly more important than knowing whether someone is possessed. I am starting to lean in this direction simply because the purpose of the manifestations is service within the church as a whole, and this is the only indication that is specific concerning us and evil spirits. False teaching may really be so subtle as to require revelation to detect it coming from the wrong source. The Bible does say devils have doctrines. Remember Jesus saying to Peter “get thee behind me satan?”

Just thinking. And I could be all wet. It's happened before....

[cinderpelt]

Thanks for your insights, A-Spot. I started this thread when I discovered one of those "dust-bunnies" lurking in my heart. I've been out for over 2 decades, and never challenged this particular doctrine! (talk about yer "DUH!!" moment!)

I think you're right in the lack of scriptural backing in these "definitions". They really became "Doctrine" for me, and I think that was the intention of vp and others. Especially pertinent to the topic of this thread is that phrase, "and if evil, whether you may cast them out." This, IMO, gave rise to an attitude of "super spiritual, in-the-know" that inflated many, many egoes, and destroyed many, many lives. To my shagrin, I've been on both ends of that field.

The passage from Kings, above is an interesting one, especially considering the idea that Kings and Samuel address that time period from man's POV, and Chronicles, from God's. I don't have a Bible with me, but I wonder if this particular situation is addressed in Chr.?

The passage from Mark is also interesting. It's before Pentecost, so the general populace didn't have holy spirit, yet there seems to be a general recognition of spiritual activity, not just by the disciples, but by the kid's dad. This shows up elsewhere in the Gospels and the OT, and has always caught my attention.

Ah~ So much to chew on, so little time.

Thanks, everyone for sharing your insights

~Cinder

[waysider]

For me, at least, the real issue is credibility.

If VP had this all wrong,

(and I personally think he did)

what else did he have wrong?

I never saw this used to deliver and heal people.

I saw and heard people SAY it was being used that way but never actually witnessed it in "real time".

It seemed like it was used to control people and put them in the passenger seat.(or maybe the "rumble seat")

Just my 2 cents.

[excathedra]

what are we talking about here ? have i been on this thread ? i can't remember

just the title of it makes me feel yucky

i discern veepee was very into spirits like drambuie (sp?)

[Ham]

even pets can get possessed, too.

[cman]

we are bought with a price, not our own and all that

so i think we are possessed

we should really see ourselves.......

[Ham]

"There were Giants in those days.."

[Ham]

we are bought with a price, not our own and all that

so i think we are possessed

we should really see ourselves.......

Our core is light.

If anything.. we all own each other.. maybe not in a practical sense, in this life.

The Beatles sung about something like that.. I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

and then the sun comes up, and the day job has it's demands..

[cinderpelt]

~See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, Ham?

"There were Giants in those days.."

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

[cinderpelt]

Quoth Waysider:

I never saw this used to deliver and heal people.

I saw and heard people SAY it was being used that way but never actually witnessed it in "real time".

It seemed like it was used to control people and put them in the passenger seat.(or maybe the "rumble seat")

END QUOTE

Exactly!

And not just to control the accused, but to forcefully steer the recipients of such info.

~Cinder

[JeffSjo]

Hi cinderpelt, this is jeffsjo.

I'm thankful for the topic you brought up and I'd like to share a few relavent experiences I 've had and things I've heard because the whole topic seems huge in a doctrinal sense and also close to home for me personally.

One thing I remembered hearing from someone about the old days was a habit of blaming the one being troubled by a devil spirit for the trouble they were in. I don't know for sure if this was a widespread view or the personal view of the one I heard talking about it but it didn't sound like there was any love in his telling of it, even rejoicing in the fact that someone was supposedly harrassed by one during a twig fellowship and that eventually led to that person leaving the fellowship of believers. The guy telling it had a smirk on his face as if the simple telling of the tale made him somebody. All I could wonder was why wasn't the one with the trouble delivered.

I was a part of a fellowship(after my days with TWI) that blamed me for two people that were troubled in such a fashion and one of them was my wife. I look back at the situation and see that what was really broken was the love and trust that should have existed in the fellowship to seek God's answer to the problem. The real problem was that there was no good fellowship between leadership and myself. Part of that was the result of me constantly(more or less) calling them on bad biblical workmanship and false prophesies. The other part was the result of them holding certain accusations against me that they never proved or confronted me with; after a few years of that, fellowship is pretty strained in a small group. I could not help my wife because there was pretty much no trust between us, and the situation between me and leadership was such that it pulled me and my wife apart. They never even told me what my wife said was going on with her when I was asleep. I am quite certain that I could have been part of the solution if my wife would have trusted me in almost any sense. After all, even Jesus Christ couldn't do much in his own hometown, and I'm pretty sure their unbelief amazed him.

I guess my experience shows me that when there is not a good working fellowship in the church and someone in authority chooses to blame instead of seeking deliverace it can get pretty ugly. Nobody gets it right in this field without walking with God and there are a lot of different ways for it to go wrong.

Thre was a lot more going on than what I'm able to post here. Some of the issues with my wife go all the way back to 1987 when we were dating, and trouble beteen leadership and me go back to the early 90"s when I was a young believer with some big problems. I hope what I've shared is helpful. Maybe it's good for me to be able to dicuss it. There don't seem to be too many places where this kind of thing can be discussed in a loving and helpful manner.

I can say with certainty that I know how it feels to be "tagged" with a false accusation. For me the biggest loss seems to be the loss to the whole fellowship when one person who has something to give is taken out. I mean we're one body, right. The thief cometh to steal..... If anybody is taken out and cannt give where he has grace to give then the loss is not just to the individual, but to the whole church.

[cinderpelt]

Jeffsjo,

I am SO sorry about what you have had to endure!

Sadly, this was a widespread doctrine and practise, and even moreso from what I hear, after I left TWI in 1987. I'm amazed and ashamed that only recently it came into question for me. Not that I even gave it much thought in the past 20 years, but it pointed out to me thatthere are many things I still need to scrutinize.

Part of my reason for starting this thread, was to unearth the awful hatred of this doctrine. Another part was to gain the insight of others who have been challenging it for years. (Thanks, all who've taken the time to post).

~Cinder

Jeffsjo~

By the way, I wish you healing and wholeness and restored joy. The patrons of the cafe have helped me immensely in my journey, and I hope you will find the same!

Waitress? A coffee for the man, please?

[Belle]

You got it! As soon as I drop this off at the next booth.

First cup's on the house, JeffSjo. Anything else I can get you?

Welcome!

We got real good at seeing devil spirits everywhere, didn't we?

I think it was mighty convenient way to excuse the behavior of some and to get rid of others. Also, a method of control and keeping us so full of fear that we'd do anything they asked us to, including staying in TWI and giving them too much of our hard earned money.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Belle

[cinderpelt]

Extra tip for this waitress! Talk about yer fast service with a smile!!

Belle, if I've read your story correctly, I was out before you were in, and it sounds like it was way worse (s'cuse the pun), in the 90's and beyond. I can't help but cheer on the sidelines for you, when I think of what you endured. Your healing and willingness to share it has been an inspiration to me.

Interesting point about excusing some and booting others. Sounds like:

Romans 2:15

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

~Cinder

[Sunesis]

Yes, people in TWI, if they didn't like someone, or they disagreed with someone, would label the person possessed and they'd get thrown out.

Personally, I think if anyone here or in TWI did see a "real" devil spirit they'd have a heart attack. TWI talked an arrogant and tough game against devil spirits but would probably flee if they ever did see one.

I liked Del Duncan's attitude - if we did meet one, it should be terrified of us. We have God's Spirit in us and authority over it. It should be cowering in front of us. But, TWI taught us the opposite, to be afraid and look for them under every rock.

I certainly do not, and will not, waste time looking for them under every rock or in everyone I meet.

I do not believe a true child of God can get possessed either.

TWI had very strange doctrines and too much emphasis on devil spirits.

[Ham]

Yep.. and second to their rabid devotion of the discerning of spirits "craft" was a rabid devotion to the manifestation of healing.

how many "healings" did people actually witness? Bonafide, genuine.. documentable..?

There have been a few "sitings" here among some of us.. and at least one person here I know of claims to have received it..

I've prayed for people.. and they've "felt better".. but other than that, I haven't seen a single, documentable, factual healing in over twenty years involvement..

I think "bonafide" spirit sitings were about as rare.

But discerning of spirits, as practiced by der vey and even some offshoots is in reality a better scam. A person doesn't exactly have to PRODUCE anything.. no REAL documentable physical manifestation of ANYTHING.

[Outfield]

I was physically healed from a spirit -- it wasn't all "feel" good. Once it was over (it was a process) I was relieved of what had been hindering me.

I also "spoke" with spirits but received no revelation to cast them out. The person basically told me "spitting" that my Jesus was crap - etc. I stood my ground and was not fearful. It's in a collateral somewhere that sometimes Jesus had to control devil spirits but not always cast them out. He controls because they have to submit to his name.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Outfield

[Ham]

well.. if it happened for you, wonderful. I mean it sincerely.

But me, personally- twenty some years.. and I didn't see a single thing.. at least that personal, or documentable.

[potato]

I was healed, once. specifically, I simply threw out a question and God answered and it was an issue of an evil spirit, but not possession.

I can't document it. I still had work to do physically to correct what was wrong in the first place. it was a very personal experience between me and God, no minister.

I did not ever get revelation to heal other people, although I prayed for them and thought I was a horrible sinner because there was never a cookie in the cookie jar. I've had encountered people that I felt God was telling me to be careful of, but never, ever "this person is possessed with blah blah spirit". I gave a foot massage once that helped someone with a back problem. I think that counts for something in the grand scheme of things, although God didn't say "pray" or "cast out".

twi's internal witch hunt hurt a lot of people. I was put on the spot by the witch hunters too many times and I wish I'd had the sense to walk away.