I'm starting to get that. I haven't been around here for very long. Didn't mean to kick a dead horse, but that phrase about "commissioning" just got stuck in my craw and I had to address it.
~Cinder
no worries... ask him all you want... question him... personally I do it for "sport"...
(pretty soon I'll have to repost the synopsis of his beliefs again, it's been a few pages)
If you look back on this thread I have provided many on-target points.
It's people's responses to my points that derails things, for a while, and then I bring it back again. This thread was pretty dead for many days until I revived it with my cartoon post #86. Please give me some credit for on-topic posting that took this thread much deeper into your topic than you had originally envisioned.
If you look back on this thread I have provided many on-target points.
It's people's responses to my points that derails things, for a while, and then I bring it back again. This thread was pretty dead for many days until I revived it with my cartoon post #86. Please give me some credit for on-topic posting that took this thread much deeper into your topic than you had originally envisioned.
Hi Mike
Not sure I understand the spiritual "significance" of that cartoon on post #86.
Perhaps you could expound on the finer points of the illustrations.
Pfal was only a vehicle that housed certain truths it was not nor will be the word of God.
Do you think that God would limit himself?
We all need to go to the source of truth
Frank, you just don't get it... see, in Mike's world... pLaF IS God's Word reissued... it is the God breathed word for this day and time... it IS the source... really.
"The Exorcist" was only riding the wave of interest in the occult. It was huge all through the 60s. Google Ruth Montgomery, Edgar Cayce, Anton Szandor LaVey, Bishop James Pike, and I'm sure there were many others.
Not sure I understand the spiritual "significance" of that cartoon on post #86.
Perhaps you could expound on the finer points of the illustrations.
Or maybe just give a "synopsis" of sorts.
(I already "get" the text portions.)
waysider,
Sure. I already did expound on that. Below is a quote from my post #22.
At that time I was unable to post the picture, so I described it to Watered Garden.
Here is her quote and then my description.
What I'm trying to say is "Be very careful indeed with this stuff. It can do much more harm than good."
I would say off hand more people were hurt than helped with this information.
When we finally get the information correct and complete then it CAN be useful and helpful.
With partial or incorrect information much damage happens, especially when love is absent.
In the early 80’s I was directed to help a grad artist to come up with an illustrated poster of the “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit.”
Key #8 is “Do not tell all you know. Receive Word of Wisdom.”
To illustrate this we came up with a grad ministering to another who has a little devil standing on his shoulder, like in the cartoons. The ministering grad is looking lovingly at the face of the tormented one while reaching around his back to flick the devil off the shoulder from behind. The tormented one doesn’t even see this, because all the action takes place behind him. It looks to him like an one-arm hug is taking place.
The Word of Wisdom spoken out by the grad in a soft, kind voice is “Hey, don’t think of the devil so much. Just magnify the Word!”
The devil is sent flying by the mere flick of the grad’s finger. It was one of the best illustrations in the poster. It was much needed.
For those who didn't see it, the poster cartoon can be found here, in post #86.
The first picture is extraneous. I was unable to cur it out. It refers to Key #7 and was not being discussed.
To see an example of the principles of this poster's Key #8 being VIOLATED (albeit somewhat tongue-in-cheek) we need not look far. Here’s what Danny said to me the other day here.
Mike can I ask do you have a pfal
devil spirit?
*******
Mike with all due respect you are so locked in to what you think is right you will not look at this subject froms Gods point of view, bible , writings that jesus said.
Pfal was only a vehicle that housed certain truths it was not nor will be the word of God. Do you think that God would limit himself? We all need to go to the source of truth
Frank,
It’s true that I am locked in. The reason for this is I want to go to the source. With the books and bibles available to us in English, I find too many middlemen have inserted their opinions. Some of the translators of your KJV or NIV may have gotten revelation in some places, but we know they blew it in many places too.
Think of how many middlemen stand between you and God, the source, as you read your KJV!
I see FAR fewer middlemen when I read PFAL, and they’re almost all grads who could SIT as they worked with Dr preparing the texts and printing it all out.
God is not limited here, but grads who don’t know and utilize the treasure God gave us in PFAL are missing out on the source.
*******
Tom, you got that one right, too!
*******
Danny, that was cute.
*******
shazdancer, if my memory serves me, the cultural icon that had lines wrapped around movie theatres was “The Exorcist.” Yes, those other influences you listed were there setting it up, but they didn’t reach the numbers that the movie did.
*******
Hi, Mike~
I saw the cartoon, and it seemed to say, in so many "words",
""C'mon back to pfal!", assuming that that WAS the God-breathed Word. The ensuing discussions were an attempt to refute that (faulty, IMO) premise.
~Cinder
cinderpelt,
Yes, it did say that. Several people of late have noted something very similar about my posting. They find it odd that I see coming back to PFAL in nearly everything I post on.
Well this is somewhat a fact.
The way I look at it is this. Since PFAL is from God, it covers nearly every aspect of our lives. When and where it was not mastered in our lives problems erupted. Those problems are discussed here. I note the connection back to PFAL where those problems COULD have been solved back then had we known the material better we were being taught. Not only that, but those and other problems can be solved now, in addition to the abundance of fellowship with the Father coming back to PFAL will provide.
I saw the cartoon, and it seemed to say, in so many "words",
""C'mon back to pfal!", assuming that that WAS the God-breathed Word. The ensuing discussions were an attempt to refute that (faulty, IMO) premise.
~Cinder
It seems to me the subject of debate today is whether or not "Coming back to PFAL" = "Coming back to the 'God-breathed' Word." Many PFAL grads were introduced to the keys for rightly dividing of the Word of God in PFAL. But that is where many PFAL grads stop - at the introduction. PFAL provided only a few examples and a few illustrations of how those keys to biblical interpretation worked, but it did not go into the greater depth or into greater detail on the working of those keys. I came to realize this at a 'Weekend in the Word' event shortly after I took the PFAL class in 1976.
Those 'Weekend in the Word' functions took place (if my memory is correct) sometime in the late 1970's (around 1976-79 if I recall). I believe this to be correct because these weekend functions took place shortly after TWI came out with the first publication of JCING which was published in 1975. TWI was starting to take a lot of heat from the religious community, as a number of theological publications by the "religious community" were attempting to discredit TWI and VPW's interpretation of many Greek words (i.e. pros meaning = together with, yet distinctly independant of) to defend "orthodox Trinitarian" doctrine.
Those "Weekend in the Word" functions were essentially my first introduction to individual biblical word studies. Sorry to disappoint a lot of the VPW critics here, but VPW didn't pull out a Webster's dictionary at the Weekend in the Word event (like many bible critics do to define their terms - or some other dictionary other than Noah Webster's) to support his own novel interpretations of the Greek and ancient biblical languages. Nope. Again, VPW demonstrated to us PFAL grads exactly HOW the Word of God - the Scriptures intreprets itself - by using the bible's OWN WORDS! You don't need a Webster's dictionary written by Noah Webster (or any other modern dictionary for that matter) to discover the truths taught in the Word of God. It will however, take a lot of your time. To see how one single word is used accurately throughout the scriptures can take hours of time.
But today we don't have the time for doing any of that. Some people apparently have enough time to: "refute all that". If that is all you're into - then you will have a very hard time convincing me you know the meaning of the Greek words for heteros and allos, (just like many Greek words you think you know the meaning of) when you really don't care if there were 2 or 4 "others" crucified with Jesus Christ. If you're someone who thinks the only cross that mattered was the one Jesus was on (and that is all that matters to you - the cross Jesus was on) then you certainly don't care about the "others" (whether you think it should be the Greek word heteros or allos that ought to be used) that were crucified with Christ!
What brought all of this on? Because the question apparently is, does coming back to the God-breathed Word also = coming back to PFAL? I realize people here have a very hard problem with this idea, because to them "coming back to PFAL" also implies a TON of negative things. To many here it means reading (or re-reading) a book written by VPW to perhaps even rejoining TWI, to just about anything and a combination of things inbetween. As George Lucas said while he was directing Star Wars III, "We can't go back. There is no back, there is only forward." So what does "coming back to PFAL" or "coming back to the God-breathed Word" really imply to you if there is no back or going back?
To see how one single word is used accurately throughout the scriptures can take hours of time.
ususally it ends up being not an enlightenening but rather mind numbing experience.
Every usage of the word "the" might be a bit "challenging".. kinda like trying to get to know every Smith in a Manhattan directory..
But really. "What difference does it make?"
I heard vic work over dechomai and lambano in an old SNS.. I was amazing how one can twist reality and scripture itself to fit some kind of mathmatically exact meaning to a given greek word..
reminds me of Bertrund Russel. He found a contradiction in mathmatics set theory if not reality itself.. and trying to fix it took him something like a few hundred pages of proofs (don't quote me on the exact number) before he even came to the conclusion that one plus one equals two..
ususally it ends up being not an enlightenening but rather mind numbing experience.
I believe that all depends on if you are searching the Word of God to clear up an apparent contridiction, or if you are looking to contribute to one.
Every usage of the word "the" might be a bit "challenging".. kinda like trying to get to know every Smith in a Manhattan directory..
But really. "What difference does it make?"
The difference might depend on whether or not if it makes the Word of God contradict itself or not. When dealing with 'The' Holy Spirit or 'the' holy spirit it certainly does. (According to VPW the article 'the' does not appear in the early manuscripts or in the critical Greek texts, and therefore it is an interpretation rather than a translation. See page 3, Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, paragraph 2.)
I heard vic work over dechomai and lambano in an old SNS.. I was amazing how one can twist reality and scripture itself to fit some kind of mathmatically exact meaning to a given greek word..
I am not sure 'what it is' you're specifically addressing here. My notes say: dechomai = to receive subjectively. Lambano= to receive into manifestation. I can receive (dechomai) a tool, but that doesn't necessarily mean or imply I have received (lambano) the results from using that tool.
reminds me of Bertrund Russel. He found a contradiction in mathmatics set theory if not reality itself.. and trying to fix it took him something like a few hundred pages of proofs (don't quote me on the exact number) before he even came to the conclusion that one plus one equals two..
Did he come up with: 2 malifactors + 2 robbers = 4 crucified with Jesus Christ?
That is still simple addition - even to me, and I don't claim to have studied the mathematical theorums of Bertrund Russel either.
You see, in PFAL, Dr. teaches that revelation can never contradict the "written" Word if it has been "rightly divided".
Well, PFAL is God-Breathed(ie: revelation) and yet there are portions of it that contradict the written Word.
So the problem I have is this:
Doesn't PFAL use its own system of logic to actually disqualify itself as being genuine revelation?
Here's one that really has me baffled
.
AC syllabus/pg. 15
Word of Knowledge
What it is not:
4. It is not a knowledge of God or His Word.
This comes by study, learning and application of self.
So now, if PFAL came by Word of Knowledge(God-Breathed revelation), then according to the definition in the AC class, it is not a knowledge of God or His Word.
It would seem to follow then that it would be necessary for us to discount the PFAL class as an authoritative source of knowledge pertaining to God or His Word.
Nibbling at the edges, with insightful commentary, engaging wit and scinitillating insight, I offer this:
In it's day, "The Exorcist" was a seat wetter alright, mostly for the impressionable. As a "horror movie", primarily. It was pretty much an embarrassment as a piece of film, although it's been given it's place in history I suppose, in the same way movies like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and other wastes of time and film have. It was gross, weird, and filled with religious imagery and symbolism. BOO! It was scarey. Pea soup has never looked the same since.
But - think about it. What give it it's legs was it's religious roots and the premise of "possession", with a major amount of goo and gore. Plus, it centered on a child. Nothing worse than seeing a child in trouble. But the essence of the film was nothing new.
"Possession" is the foundation of nearly all horror/sci-fi movies. The idea of humans influenced beyond their own control by forces they can't clearly identify. You can add all the blood and guts and green goop you want - it's always the same premise be it "spirits", the devil, aliens from other planets, psycho-nuts with chain saws. Same thing.
Over and over. Nothing new there. Nothing new today. Same crap, different title. I find this kind of movie really boring, simply because they take advantage of extremely thin connections to reality - the lost hitchhiker, being alone in a parking garage, moving into a creaky old house, etc. etc. Once the imagination hears a mouse sneezing, all bets are off as to what it could be. You'd think the Devil, Grand Master of Evil, would hang out in better places and have better things to do than scare old ladies. Doesn't sound very stand-up to me, but that's another topic, titled "Evil Wears a Baseball Cap and Doesn't Shower Regularly".
Like the move "Alien" and it's offspring. It's a grand movie, but once you get past the gross alien-in-your-tummy stuff the interesting part has nothing to do with that, really.
The Exorcist added nothing new, unless you count the fact it's helped to loosen the rules on what can be shown in a theater to the public.
In it's day, "The Exorcist" was a seat wetter alright, mostly for the impressionable. As a "horror movie", primarily. It was pretty much an embarrassment as a piece of film,
Socks, did I ever tell you I love you?
honestly.. brother to brother.
The Exorcist added nothing new, unless you count the fact it's helped to loosen the rules on what can be shown in a theater to the public.
It did add one thing new, new fodder for the superstitous, looking for devils under every rock..
Mr. Hammer, I return the Manly Love! Unity High - Five!
Tom S, Manly Love Hug!
I dunno, Tom. It was immensely popular, yes. It was out in 1973, and it got a bunch of AA nominations and won one, or two or something.
But, if viewed as being about someone mentally ill it might be viewed as an expose' with lurid detailed views into insanity. If you take out the devil and the church, that's what it's about and in fact, the story the book and movie are supposedly based on probably isn't even close to what's presented as true. So I'd agree it went a long way towards putting the religious view of devil spirit possession on the front burner for American culture through the Big Screen, I don't think VPW picked up on it or used the climate it created for any purpose.
The reason for that is, I was at the Way Nash, first year of the Corps program the year it came out. He went to see it with some of us locally and of course, there was an after-burner discussion. His feeling was it was basically b-s**t, in "his experience" he'd never seen or heard of anything that out front or blatant. He felt it did more to hurt the reality, rather than help. Anyone seeing it might know that people go completely off the deep end and lose touch with reality and do completely unnatural things - yes. But the phenomena depicted was too over the top, if anything like that truly did happen in modern times, it would be more than written about. If the person was hospitalized and there were witnesses, even in the 40's when it supposedly happened, there would have been better reporting on it.
Which isn't to say that's the way it played out, but as I recall he was kind of embarrassed by it, almost. Like, "that isn't what the devil would do". He did teach about things like levitation and all of that as realities in the Advanced Class, or covered it more than taught about it, but I think his perception was that instances of anything resembling the movie were few and far between and he didn't want to associate his teaching with the movie.
In a way, over the years, I'm inclined to agree. I thought the movie's impact was probably mostly on kids, that no adult would really see it as anything more than a movie. I'm sure the religious community bought into it more because it characterized the devil as a "real" force of evil, so in that way it puts the screws on you if you develop fear from it. And of course if people really believe that's the way the devil works, it's a frightening reminder of what "could" happen.
Which isn't to say, in the most long winded manner I can muster , that there aren't slivers of reality to what the movie depicted, IMO. But there's something questionable in the idea that the only times we seem to "really" hear or see the "devil" in full force is in the life of some poor kid, or these out of the way scenarios. If that's really the devil, he's a p***y and he needs a good P.R. firm. His image stinks.
For my money, there's better movies out there on the topic, "Prince of Darkness" is one but again it nests it's message inside a stringy story and not that many people have ever even seen it.
my brother from the sock drawere, manly love hug back... I think we're talking about two different things. I agree with your assessment of the movie (personally, I liked "The Abominable Dr Fibes" much better)...
What I'm talking about is how that movie, and it's PR machine, showed that there was a huge interest in all of this "possession stuff" and my question is, what I wonder is, could it possibly be that TWI, because veepee saw so much public interest in "pozzezzhun", also maybe seen that as another 'hook' to get folks into (and keep them in) TWI? The way it sounds, there were DS around every corner... and of course, we know what people were labled whenever they "got sent home" , etc.
Did they capitalize on the interest in possession stuff?
It would make sense.
Some of the advanced class did have an old carnival kinda atmosphere..
"hurry hurry hurry, see the five headed debil, he walks, he talks..watch as he pulls ectoplasm out of an ordinary body. Stand back boy, don't touch.."
not to mention, we were "richly rewarded" by being allowed to handle vic's private collection of curious arts..
the "automatic handwritings".. I wonder how he ever got that stuff..
and then.. the discerning of spirits section was the longest section, and most detailed, was it not?
Not to mention "the coolest".. the snappiest.. you may have fallen asleep during sixteen keys.. but during vic's public showing of "debils"? Not likely.
For a lot of people, that's what they were THERE for.. to hear the "secrets" of da kingdumb.. well, I was, anyway..
And then there was the "opportunity" to rub elbows with the chief debil slayer himself. Anybody who can slay every use and usage of the greek word "spoudazo" or "pneuma hagion".. well, that's just what does for KICKS..
because veepee saw so much public interest in "pozzezzhun", also maybe seen that as another 'hook' to get folks into (and keep them in) TWI? The way it sounds, there were DS around every corner
On his part, no, I don't think he capitalized on it or would have seen eny benefit in doing so.
The reactions of others might have brought interest to the AC, maybe. If it did, I never came across it in any demonstrable amount, but that's not to say the general climate might have been created for it, I just didn't see it if it did. Maybe I was out of the loop.
Did they capitalize on the interest in possession stuff?
Yup - it was also another way for TWI leadership to exert control over folks. Manipulating people by fear – "don't trust that person, they're possessed…don't doubt/disobey our teachings, and for goodness sakes don't walk away from this ministry - - or YOU risk getting possessed – at the minimum, your life will be ruined by heavy devil spirit infiltration."
For some reason, this scene in The Jungle Book comes to mind: Ka the snake, looking hypnotically into Mowgli's eyes says, "Trust in me."
Yeah.. threats of eminent possession.. I think that was one of the things that helped me loosen the grip..
I saw preachers in other demoninations threaten the flock, not with possession.. but dangers of hayull fire.. if they didn't accept the authority "gawd" and "the word" gave him.. with pretty close to the same demeanor, spittle flying out into the front row..
I thought, how.. ignorant. Then I thought again.. hmm. how ignorant..
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Tom Strange
no worries... ask him all you want... question him... personally I do it for "sport"...
(pretty soon I'll have to repost the synopsis of his beliefs again, it's been a few pages)
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cinderpelt
Don't know if I can stomach yet another LONG derail of this nature, and doubt it would do much good anyway.
~Cinder
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Mike
Please, cinderpelt!
If you look back on this thread I have provided many on-target points.
It's people's responses to my points that derails things, for a while, and then I bring it back again. This thread was pretty dead for many days until I revived it with my cartoon post #86. Please give me some credit for on-topic posting that took this thread much deeper into your topic than you had originally envisioned.
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waysider
Hi Mike
Not sure I understand the spiritual "significance" of that cartoon on post #86.
Perhaps you could expound on the finer points of the illustrations.
Or maybe just give a "synopsis" of sorts.
(I already "get" the text portions.)
ps. Have you named that pony yet?
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frank123lol
Hmmm..The pressence of spirits good or evil and whether you may cast the evil ones out
Not an exact quote...
How do find out about it? Where do we go for the source?
God deserves our credit,He is the one who loves us keeps us out of harms way.
Yet it took people to teach us ,show us.
Mike with all due respect you are so locked in to what you think is right you will not look at this subject
froms Gods point of view,bible ,writings that jesus said.
Pfal was only a vehicle that housed certain truths it was not nor will be the word of God.
Do you think that God would limit himself?
We all need to go to the source of truth
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Tom Strange
Frank, you just don't get it... see, in Mike's world... pLaF IS God's Word reissued... it is the God breathed word for this day and time... it IS the source... really.
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Danny
Mike can I ask do you have a pfal
devil spirit?
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shazdancer
Mike,
"The Exorcist" was only riding the wave of interest in the occult. It was huge all through the 60s. Google Ruth Montgomery, Edgar Cayce, Anton Szandor LaVey, Bishop James Pike, and I'm sure there were many others.
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cinderpelt
Hi, Mike~
I saw the cartoon, and it seemed to say, in so many "words",
""C'mon back to pfal!", assuming that that WAS the God-breathed Word. The ensuing discussions were an attempt to refute that (faulty, IMO) premise.
~Cinder
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Mike
waysider,
Sure. I already did expound on that. Below is a quote from my post #22.
At that time I was unable to post the picture, so I described it to Watered Garden.
Here is her quote and then my description.
For those who didn't see it, the poster cartoon can be found here, in post #86.
The first picture is extraneous. I was unable to cur it out. It refers to Key #7 and was not being discussed.
To see an example of the principles of this poster's Key #8 being VIOLATED (albeit somewhat tongue-in-cheek) we need not look far. Here’s what Danny said to me the other day here.
*******
Frank,
It’s true that I am locked in. The reason for this is I want to go to the source. With the books and bibles available to us in English, I find too many middlemen have inserted their opinions. Some of the translators of your KJV or NIV may have gotten revelation in some places, but we know they blew it in many places too.
Think of how many middlemen stand between you and God, the source, as you read your KJV!
I see FAR fewer middlemen when I read PFAL, and they’re almost all grads who could SIT as they worked with Dr preparing the texts and printing it all out.
God is not limited here, but grads who don’t know and utilize the treasure God gave us in PFAL are missing out on the source.
*******
Tom, you got that one right, too!
*******
Danny, that was cute.
*******
shazdancer, if my memory serves me, the cultural icon that had lines wrapped around movie theatres was “The Exorcist.” Yes, those other influences you listed were there setting it up, but they didn’t reach the numbers that the movie did.
*******
cinderpelt,
Yes, it did say that. Several people of late have noted something very similar about my posting. They find it odd that I see coming back to PFAL in nearly everything I post on.
Well this is somewhat a fact.
The way I look at it is this. Since PFAL is from God, it covers nearly every aspect of our lives. When and where it was not mastered in our lives problems erupted. Those problems are discussed here. I note the connection back to PFAL where those problems COULD have been solved back then had we known the material better we were being taught. Not only that, but those and other problems can be solved now, in addition to the abundance of fellowship with the Father coming back to PFAL will provide.
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What The Hey
It seems to me the subject of debate today is whether or not "Coming back to PFAL" = "Coming back to the 'God-breathed' Word." Many PFAL grads were introduced to the keys for rightly dividing of the Word of God in PFAL. But that is where many PFAL grads stop - at the introduction. PFAL provided only a few examples and a few illustrations of how those keys to biblical interpretation worked, but it did not go into the greater depth or into greater detail on the working of those keys. I came to realize this at a 'Weekend in the Word' event shortly after I took the PFAL class in 1976.
Those 'Weekend in the Word' functions took place (if my memory is correct) sometime in the late 1970's (around 1976-79 if I recall). I believe this to be correct because these weekend functions took place shortly after TWI came out with the first publication of JCING which was published in 1975. TWI was starting to take a lot of heat from the religious community, as a number of theological publications by the "religious community" were attempting to discredit TWI and VPW's interpretation of many Greek words (i.e. pros meaning = together with, yet distinctly independant of) to defend "orthodox Trinitarian" doctrine.
Those "Weekend in the Word" functions were essentially my first introduction to individual biblical word studies. Sorry to disappoint a lot of the VPW critics here, but VPW didn't pull out a Webster's dictionary at the Weekend in the Word event (like many bible critics do to define their terms - or some other dictionary other than Noah Webster's) to support his own novel interpretations of the Greek and ancient biblical languages. Nope. Again, VPW demonstrated to us PFAL grads exactly HOW the Word of God - the Scriptures intreprets itself - by using the bible's OWN WORDS! You don't need a Webster's dictionary written by Noah Webster (or any other modern dictionary for that matter) to discover the truths taught in the Word of God. It will however, take a lot of your time. To see how one single word is used accurately throughout the scriptures can take hours of time.
But today we don't have the time for doing any of that. Some people apparently have enough time to: "refute all that". If that is all you're into - then you will have a very hard time convincing me you know the meaning of the Greek words for heteros and allos, (just like many Greek words you think you know the meaning of) when you really don't care if there were 2 or 4 "others" crucified with Jesus Christ. If you're someone who thinks the only cross that mattered was the one Jesus was on (and that is all that matters to you - the cross Jesus was on) then you certainly don't care about the "others" (whether you think it should be the Greek word heteros or allos that ought to be used) that were crucified with Christ!
What brought all of this on? Because the question apparently is, does coming back to the God-breathed Word also = coming back to PFAL? I realize people here have a very hard problem with this idea, because to them "coming back to PFAL" also implies a TON of negative things. To many here it means reading (or re-reading) a book written by VPW to perhaps even rejoining TWI, to just about anything and a combination of things inbetween. As George Lucas said while he was directing Star Wars III, "We can't go back. There is no back, there is only forward." So what does "coming back to PFAL" or "coming back to the God-breathed Word" really imply to you if there is no back or going back?
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Ham
ususally it ends up being not an enlightenening but rather mind numbing experience.
Every usage of the word "the" might be a bit "challenging".. kinda like trying to get to know every Smith in a Manhattan directory..
But really. "What difference does it make?"
I heard vic work over dechomai and lambano in an old SNS.. I was amazing how one can twist reality and scripture itself to fit some kind of mathmatically exact meaning to a given greek word..
reminds me of Bertrund Russel. He found a contradiction in mathmatics set theory if not reality itself.. and trying to fix it took him something like a few hundred pages of proofs (don't quote me on the exact number) before he even came to the conclusion that one plus one equals two..
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What The Hey
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waysider
Hey there, Mike
I'm hoping maybe you can help me with a problem.
You see, in PFAL, Dr. teaches that revelation can never contradict the "written" Word if it has been "rightly divided".
Well, PFAL is God-Breathed(ie: revelation) and yet there are portions of it that contradict the written Word.
So the problem I have is this:
Doesn't PFAL use its own system of logic to actually disqualify itself as being genuine revelation?
Here's one that really has me baffled
.
AC syllabus/pg. 15
Word of Knowledge
What it is not:
4. It is not a knowledge of God or His Word.
This comes by study, learning and application of self.
So now, if PFAL came by Word of Knowledge(God-Breathed revelation), then according to the definition in the AC class, it is not a knowledge of God or His Word.
It would seem to follow then that it would be necessary for us to discount the PFAL class as an authoritative source of knowledge pertaining to God or His Word.
I'm looking forward to your response.
You don't have to get too detailed.
Just a brief "synopsis" will do.
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socks
Nibbling at the edges, with insightful commentary, engaging wit and scinitillating insight, I offer this:
In it's day, "The Exorcist" was a seat wetter alright, mostly for the impressionable. As a "horror movie", primarily. It was pretty much an embarrassment as a piece of film, although it's been given it's place in history I suppose, in the same way movies like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and other wastes of time and film have. It was gross, weird, and filled with religious imagery and symbolism. BOO! It was scarey. Pea soup has never looked the same since.
But - think about it. What give it it's legs was it's religious roots and the premise of "possession", with a major amount of goo and gore. Plus, it centered on a child. Nothing worse than seeing a child in trouble. But the essence of the film was nothing new.
"Possession" is the foundation of nearly all horror/sci-fi movies. The idea of humans influenced beyond their own control by forces they can't clearly identify. You can add all the blood and guts and green goop you want - it's always the same premise be it "spirits", the devil, aliens from other planets, psycho-nuts with chain saws. Same thing.
Over and over. Nothing new there. Nothing new today. Same crap, different title. I find this kind of movie really boring, simply because they take advantage of extremely thin connections to reality - the lost hitchhiker, being alone in a parking garage, moving into a creaky old house, etc. etc. Once the imagination hears a mouse sneezing, all bets are off as to what it could be. You'd think the Devil, Grand Master of Evil, would hang out in better places and have better things to do than scare old ladies. Doesn't sound very stand-up to me, but that's another topic, titled "Evil Wears a Baseball Cap and Doesn't Shower Regularly".
Like the move "Alien" and it's offspring. It's a grand movie, but once you get past the gross alien-in-your-tummy stuff the interesting part has nothing to do with that, really.
The Exorcist added nothing new, unless you count the fact it's helped to loosen the rules on what can be shown in a theater to the public.
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Tom Strange
but socks... given all of that... don't you think that movie "put it out there" brought it into the 'public's conscience' as it were?
and I was just wondering if (what became) all of the focus on DS in TWI might have somehow been another one of veepee's 'marketing ploys'...
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Ham
honestly.. brother to brother.
It did add one thing new, new fodder for the superstitous, looking for devils under every rock..
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socks
Mr. Hammer, I return the Manly Love! Unity High - Five!
Tom S, Manly Love Hug!
I dunno, Tom. It was immensely popular, yes. It was out in 1973, and it got a bunch of AA nominations and won one, or two or something.
But, if viewed as being about someone mentally ill it might be viewed as an expose' with lurid detailed views into insanity. If you take out the devil and the church, that's what it's about and in fact, the story the book and movie are supposedly based on probably isn't even close to what's presented as true. So I'd agree it went a long way towards putting the religious view of devil spirit possession on the front burner for American culture through the Big Screen, I don't think VPW picked up on it or used the climate it created for any purpose.
The reason for that is, I was at the Way Nash, first year of the Corps program the year it came out. He went to see it with some of us locally and of course, there was an after-burner discussion. His feeling was it was basically b-s**t, in "his experience" he'd never seen or heard of anything that out front or blatant. He felt it did more to hurt the reality, rather than help. Anyone seeing it might know that people go completely off the deep end and lose touch with reality and do completely unnatural things - yes. But the phenomena depicted was too over the top, if anything like that truly did happen in modern times, it would be more than written about. If the person was hospitalized and there were witnesses, even in the 40's when it supposedly happened, there would have been better reporting on it.
Which isn't to say that's the way it played out, but as I recall he was kind of embarrassed by it, almost. Like, "that isn't what the devil would do". He did teach about things like levitation and all of that as realities in the Advanced Class, or covered it more than taught about it, but I think his perception was that instances of anything resembling the movie were few and far between and he didn't want to associate his teaching with the movie.
In a way, over the years, I'm inclined to agree. I thought the movie's impact was probably mostly on kids, that no adult would really see it as anything more than a movie. I'm sure the religious community bought into it more because it characterized the devil as a "real" force of evil, so in that way it puts the screws on you if you develop fear from it. And of course if people really believe that's the way the devil works, it's a frightening reminder of what "could" happen.
Which isn't to say, in the most long winded manner I can muster
, that there aren't slivers of reality to what the movie depicted, IMO. But there's something questionable in the idea that the only times we seem to "really" hear or see the "devil" in full force is in the life of some poor kid, or these out of the way scenarios. If that's really the devil, he's a p***y and he needs a good P.R. firm. His image stinks.
For my money, there's better movies out there on the topic, "Prince of Darkness" is one but again it nests it's message inside a stringy story and not that many people have ever even seen it.
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Tom Strange
my brother from the sock drawere, manly love hug back... I think we're talking about two different things. I agree with your assessment of the movie (personally, I liked "The Abominable Dr Fibes" much better)...
What I'm talking about is how that movie, and it's PR machine, showed that there was a huge interest in all of this "possession stuff" and my question is, what I wonder is, could it possibly be that TWI, because veepee saw so much public interest in "pozzezzhun", also maybe seen that as another 'hook' to get folks into (and keep them in) TWI? The way it sounds, there were DS around every corner... and of course, we know what people were labled whenever they "got sent home" , etc.
know whut ahm sain?
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Ham
Did they capitalize on the interest in possession stuff?
It would make sense.
Some of the advanced class did have an old carnival kinda atmosphere..
"hurry hurry hurry, see the five headed debil, he walks, he talks..watch as he pulls ectoplasm out of an ordinary body. Stand back boy, don't touch.."
not to mention, we were "richly rewarded" by being allowed to handle vic's private collection of curious arts..
the "automatic handwritings".. I wonder how he ever got that stuff..
and then.. the discerning of spirits section was the longest section, and most detailed, was it not?
Not to mention "the coolest".. the snappiest.. you may have fallen asleep during sixteen keys.. but during vic's public showing of "debils"? Not likely.
For a lot of people, that's what they were THERE for.. to hear the "secrets" of da kingdumb.. well, I was, anyway..
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Ham
And then there was the "opportunity" to rub elbows with the chief debil slayer himself. Anybody who can slay every use and usage of the greek word "spoudazo" or "pneuma hagion".. well, that's just what does for KICKS..
Just wait till he gets warmed up..
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socks
On his part, no, I don't think he capitalized on it or would have seen eny benefit in doing so.
The reactions of others might have brought interest to the AC, maybe. If it did, I never came across it in any demonstrable amount, but that's not to say the general climate might have been created for it, I just didn't see it if it did. Maybe I was out of the loop.
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T-Bone
Yup - it was also another way for TWI leadership to exert control over folks. Manipulating people by fear – "don't trust that person, they're possessed…don't doubt/disobey our teachings, and for goodness sakes don't walk away from this ministry - - or YOU risk getting possessed – at the minimum, your life will be ruined by heavy devil spirit infiltration."
For some reason, this scene in The Jungle Book comes to mind: Ka the snake, looking hypnotically into Mowgli's eyes says, "Trust in me."
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Ham
Yeah.. threats of eminent possession.. I think that was one of the things that helped me loosen the grip..
I saw preachers in other demoninations threaten the flock, not with possession.. but dangers of hayull fire.. if they didn't accept the authority "gawd" and "the word" gave him.. with pretty close to the same demeanor, spittle flying out into the front row..
I thought, how.. ignorant. Then I thought again.. hmm. how ignorant..
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