Common sense not to mention SCRIPTURES warn us not to Mike. Wierwille`s fruit of the flesh, according to galatians completely eliminates any and all credibility friend.
Ugh...how did yet ANOTHER interesting thread get derailed into an info mercial for wierwille and pfal ?
Add this too: I have an actual rule for faith and practice.
No need, that's patently obvious.
Add this too: I ask and ask for someone to place THEIR actual, physical, see-able, weigh-able, RULE for faith and practice ON THE TABLE and no one can answer me aside from flimsy abstractions.
No need, that's already included in 'the synopsis'.
Oh, wait a minute. Maybe you do have a God-breathed book, or at least one you think is God-breathed and therefore adhere to with al your might.
I prefer to rely on 'that still small voice'... it's served me pretty well (when I listened to it)... pretty much the only regrets I have in life are when I didn't.
Tell me, Tom, do you have a physical book that's greater than you? I mean one where you dare not change anything, and one where if it and you differ on a point, then it's YOU that must change, and not the book.
see the response immediately above re: still small voice
Tell me Tom, what's bigger than you that commands your ultimate respect?
that I'm true and honest with myself and others and not 'puffed up' with any sense (real of imagined) of importance
Do you re-write your own book as your mood changes? Or is your book rock solid?
see the 'still small voice' response above...
...and it's not as my 'mood' changes, it's as 'life' changes...
life is change, how one acts to affect change or reacts to change (for me) is best accomplished by listening to 'that still small voice'.
...and I find it very hard to listen if I'm constantly thumping my chest claiming to know the answers or telling others that they don't.
Try listening sometime Mike... you might discover how much you've missed over all of these years...
When talking about death in the Bible – it all depends on one's definition of "death." Some Bible scholars describe three types of death as a status of separation:
Physical death = separation of the life force [soul] from the body
Spiritual death = separation from God [i.e. what "died" in the Garden of Eden]
I must admit, I prefer the "kinder, gentler" approach you take these days. But your attempts to one-up the "class" with your knowledge of PFAL is still silly. Even if we knew PFAL cold, it still would not make our lives one iota better.
However, your question to Tom...
Now, class, and especially you Mr. Smartypants Tom, tell me what you know about “the spirit of man” and how that fits into this long forgotten larger picture.
The picture isn't "long-forgotten" to me, just irrelevant. VPW taught that God could reveal to you if someone had a devil spirit, God's holy spirit, or simply his own spirit, meaning that he was an alive natural man who hadn't accepted either spirit, a body-and-soul man only.
If anyone forgot these things, it was because we were enthralled with the idea of having power over devil spirits. TWI leaders were happy to feed into our fascination with demons. Wierwille himself would often tell us how God showed him this or that, or how this guy or that guy was sold out to the adversary, and we'd all think, "Wow, Doctor is so spiritual." Wierwille also taught that psychic surgery was real, as was ectoplasm. He was just doing his carnival barker best to get us to pay the big bucks to learn more. Only he was really just the Wizard of Oz, and we didn't need him to get to Kansas.
If anyone forgot these things, it was because we were enthralled with the idea of having power over devil spirits. TWI leaders were happy to feed into our fascination with demons. Wierwille himself would often tell us how God showed him this or that, or how this guy or that guy was sold out to the adversary, and we'd all think, "Wow, Doctor is so spiritual."
Our experiences really were different. When I was growing up "devil spirits" were always shrouded in mistery. Whenever I asked about them I was shushed. When I asked why we never talked about them - it was because if we did we were giving glory to the devil. I always wondered how we could protect ourselves from something we knew nothing about.
It was a real shock to hear some of the same things you are saying when I went to the advanced class a few years back. People were naming them off and would talk about them like they knew the subject quite well.
They also never pulled the posseso card out much. I don't think I've ever seen it done really... or I was protected from seeing it. I can't be too sure.
If anyone forgot these things, it was because we were enthralled with the idea of having power over devil spirits. TWI leaders were happy to feed into our fascination with demons. Wierwille himself would often tell us how God showed him this or that, or how this guy or that guy was sold out to the adversary, and we'd all think, "Wow, Doctor is so spiritual." Wierwille also taught that psychic surgery was real, as was ectoplasm. He was just doing his carnival barker best to get us to pay the big bucks to learn more. Only he was really just the Wizard of Oz, and we didn't need him to get to Kansas.
Ya know... I've often wondered (well not real often, but every now and then) if the whole "possession" and "devil spirit" thing would have been so focused upon if movies like The Exorcist and The Omen et al hadn't been in the theaters and in the popular culture of the times...
Did anyone else wonder why there was so much focus on "possession"? That didn't seem to be the focus of Jesus' ministry... just a part of it... but not a major focus.
Nero... you probably were shielded from it... just a guess.
"discerning" of pneuma". I would broaden the definition to include a 'spiritual" sense of the condition of life, where it's understood deeper than the immediate actions or behavior and goes to the underlying causes. Less a matter of pin pointing bad "pneumas" by name.
The AC usually spent a lot of time on covering "types of spirits", and generally "bad" ones, the "daimonion" and daimons, those Big 'n' Little Bad Boys.
SirG hits squarely on the essence - behavior and quality of life. To get granular for a sec - typically in Way World a type of behavior might be "discerned" to be caused by a specific kind of "spirit" influencing or controlling another's behavior. What's that really mean? It means, there's an independent "spirit", that's causing a person to act or think a certain way.
Why a person acts or thinks a certain way goes much deeper than that though, the cause isn't reduced to a simple "the devil made me do it'.
Records of Jesus and other people indicate that I think, in that His effect on other people and their needs was - well, there's that one record about "this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting". I don't interpret that as instructions to pray and fast more "over" a person, but that they needed to grow more as individuals in their overall faith and trust towards God.
"Spirit of lying". A spirit that "makes" a person lie? Why's a person lie to begin with? What's going on, really?
My thought would be, the entire topic of d. of s. doesn't lie in knowing "types of devil spirits", if that's something to be known it doesn't really tell you a lot does it? That sense that there's "something else' going on is really literally, "discerning", an awareness of what's going on. Like W. G. said, the idea of knowing another person's state could be a burden more than anything else. Knowing it is just one thing, what to do to help, another. And there's nothing worse than someone wanting to do anything and everything to help but being a pain in the butt trying to do it.
One (among millions) memorable things Del Duncan told me when I was so severely convicted about some wrong doctrine things I had said, Del said, "My sheep hear my voice, and if you are not speaking His voice, His sheep won't remember."
I have asked the Lord many times to keep people's sheep-ears wide open so that only things from the Lord can be heard, and that things such as from my stupidity will fall on deaf ears.
(Of course I do try to speak and do things that come from Him so what I say is worth listening to, in the long run. :) )
I don't buy vpw's definition of discerning of spirits. Socks' and Kit's posts touch upon what I think discerning of spirits may be about. It is listed in I Corinthians 12:10 after prophecy - so I'm inclined to see it as having a relationship with prophecy – i.e. believers having the supernatural ability to determine if prophecy or a revelation came from the Holy Spirit or maybe an insightful analysis of something that was said. I Corinthians 14:29 "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge" comes to mind in that regard. Not sure about this - but perhaps Peter supernaturally knowing Ananias and Sapphira were lying [in Acts 5] and Paul discerning the purpose of Elymas the sorcerer [Acts 13] may be along this line as well...Also, if memory serves me right, in the Greek Text of I Corinthians 12:10 it is just "discerning spirits" - no "of" - which makes me wonder - is it in reference to the person with this ability? Similar to saying "kinds of tongues."
doojabble, are you getting desperate OR WHAT? Sheeeeesh!
***
WordWolf,
You pasted in Goey’s attempt to shut down my presentations of PFAL page 83 and made it look like I had given up.
You wrote: “For the benefit of those in the cheap seats, here’s how Goey explained that passage, June 1, 2003, back when Mike was claiming that passage meant vpw was saying that part of his own books would NECESSARILY be ‘God-breathed.’....”
Hey! I never stopped claiming this!
We all know you're still claiming this. But you were claiming this over 4 years ago, and it was refuted back then, and you're still claiming it.
Goey failed to note that Dr switched from “write” to “said” so his attempt to fit this into a figure of speech was a cram job.
Your straining at a gnat didn't invalidate his point to anyone except you.
At the end of his life Dr came right out and said we must master PFAL collaterals.
Right. vpw's last commercial was to say to spend more time in pfal, and the best thing we could do for
people was to put them thru the class.
Hardly an earth-shattering announcement- it was pretty much the message for us for the 70s and 80s.
They ARE the “scriptures” we are to search.
And here's where the Mikean pfal doctrine comes in.
pfal="Scriptures", and "pfal> any Bible".
We don’t really HAVE the ancient scriptures to search, just men’s poor copies and translations thereof.
Before the PFAL collaterals were finished being written, and when Dr spoke this sentence in the film class in 1968, all we had were the hand-me-down ancient scriptures and human versions to search, and searching them was right and proper.
Before the PFAL collaterals were finished being written, and when he published the PFAL book with it’s page 83 in 1971, we STILL didn’t have nearly all the “book and magazine form” presentation of God’s Word, and searching our KJVs was right and proper.
But in 1975, as the publication of Volume IV was nearing, he slowly and quietly started his TEN YEAR campaign of urging, first only top leadership, to search the PFAL literature, and MASTER IT!
For those who missed it, that's pretty much the linchpin of Mikean pfal.
Feel free to review it.
And see why he gets so few converts.
As the years progressed and more was printed (or scripted) Dr stepped up his urging to master PFAL. In 1979 he STRONGLY urged only the AC students and grads to master RHST with this now famous quote in segment 5 of that Advanced Class:
“I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.”
Sure looks like he wanted us to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES, the scriptures he and God were publishing.
Sure looks like Mike saw vpw say "memorize the White Book",
and Mike read that as "Search the Scriptures."
By 1984 he was urging new students to master (which implies “search”) some more of the collateral books.
Then in 1985, in his second to the last teaching “The Hope” he urged us all to master ADAN. Two weeks later, in his soon to be lost and trodden underfoot LAST teaching, he TWICE urges us all to master and search the written PFAL SCRIPTURES.
Not all the Wierwille wrote was God-breathed, but what he and God put into the PFAL writings is worthy of mastery because it was of GOD.
"Master" and "search", of course, being Mike's "private interpretation" and additions.
especially when it's phrases like "PFAL SCRIPTURES", which does not appear anywhere in pfal.
And the idea that SOME of what vpw wrote being God-breathed?
Mike believes this.
Mike believes vpw said this, and Mike believes this is true.
And Mike believes that our NOT embracing this silly thing is wrong of us.
Ya know... I've often wondered (well not real often, but every now and then) if the whole "possession" and "devil spirit" thing would have been so focused upon if movies like The Exorcist and The Omen et al hadn't been in the theaters and in the popular culture of the times...
Did anyone else wonder why there was so much focus on "possession"? That didn't seem to be the focus of Jesus' ministry... just a part of it... but not a major focus.
Nero... you probably were shielded from it... just a guess.
Ironic how "the Exorcist" was wildly exaggerated from what was supposedly
the true account, but to hear the official twi line, you'd think it UNDERSTATED
Yeah WW... I'm thinking the whole focus on "possession" was just another case of TWI taking advantage of the "mindset" of the culture of the times, kind of like the "free sex" thing of the hippy movement earlier... just another "hook" used by TWI to get folks initially interested or to keep folks ensnared...
You honestly, really think that is what Joni Mitchell was thinking about when she wrote that lyric?
Really?
Heck no! Who ever said I said THAT?
I just threw her in the mix for cultural variety, to lighten things up a bit. It was a mere convergence of words and sounds more than meaning. It was like comedy relief only not funny, so more like cultural relief. Sorry if I wrote it in a misleading way.
***
When talking about death in the Bible – it all depends on one's definition of "death." Some Bible scholars describe three types of death as a status of separation:
Physical death = separation of the life force [soul] from the body
Spiritual death = separation from God [i.e. what "died" in the Garden of Eden]
Eternal death = separation from God forever
I totally agree that this word has many meanings. Discerning which is which is a big job, certainly involving each context. In some passages it could conceivably even take on more than one meaning. In the fellowship I attend we are now studying ADAN and what you mentioned above is rather uppermost in our minds as we study.
***
The picture isn't "long-forgotten" to me, just irrelevant. VPW taught that God could reveal to you if someone had a devil spirit, God's holy spirit, or simply his own spirit, meaning that he was an alive natural man who hadn't accepted either spirit, a body-and-soul man only.
If anyone forgot these things, it was because we were enthralled with the idea of having power over devil spirits. TWI leaders were happy to feed into our fascination with demons. Wierwille himself would often tell us how God showed him this or that, or how this guy or that guy was sold out to the adversary, and we'd all think, "Wow, Doctor is so spiritual." Wierwille also taught that psychic surgery was real, as was ectoplasm. He was just doing his carnival barker best to get us to pay the big bucks to learn more. Only he was really just the Wizard of Oz, and we didn't need him to get to Kansas.
I agree that the abuses occurred, but I differ on their source. I have presented my evidence here that Dr fought these abuses. He knew people were imitating him in in this area an abusive way, and were getting over-concerned with evil spirits. He had the syllabus changed, and he sent out teachings that led to some taking action like me and my artist friend to produce that cartoon posted. "Light dispels darkness" became a theme to replace cheap reenactments of "The Exorcist."
It was that movie that I alluded to in a much earlier post here as I asked a trivia question about our culture in the 70's and what was influencing us to go a way that needed correcting. This cultural icon of a movie was as major an influence on Discerning of Spirits as Hal Lindsey was a major influence on modern Israel being Biblical.
I'm surprised no posters brought up this movie and how it shaped things back then. It still influences people today into thinking that ds are overt and sensational. It still provides camouflage for the more subtle and more dangerous ones.
Dr fought the dumb stuff leadership and we grads were getting into, but we OFTEN did not listen. For what I did listen to and benefit from back then I think the bucks I paid were puny.
I just threw her in the mix for cultural variety, to lighten things up a bit. It was a mere convergence of words and sounds more than meaning. It was like comedy relief only not funny, so more like cultural relief. Sorry if I wrote it in a misleading way.
I think YOU said you said it (here):
Tom,
It had to do with them having spirit, a connection directly to God.
It's that spirit part of them that died on "that very day" that they ate the forbidden fruit.
With that spirit and a soul (mind) breathed by God, God's voice was loud and clear.
With no spirit and a mind feeding only on the senses curriculum of the adversary's doing, God's voice diminishes to a still small one AT BEST.
I think you're right about CSNY.
We were talking about Joni Mitchell's song and the phrase "we've got to get back to the garden"... and you posted that reply about "them" (which would refer to Joni Mitchell & CSNY)... since that is who we were talking about...
I should have put three asterisks separating that last line from the rest, as my regular style is. I assumed that it was obvious that I was only using Joni to highlight one phrase, and NOT using her to represent a definitive multi-point intersection of ideas, and thus thought the asterisks weren't needed there. Maybe because it was a short post. Anyway, time is short for me and I wont be able to look it up right now.
***
I've seen this before, where a minor illustration is mistaken for a major derivation.
In this case, with my missing asterisks, it's a minor illustration being mistaken for a major intersection.
It's in the "needs and wants parallel" thing that I've seen this before. Dr uses a verse in Matthew to illustrate one word in his teaching of needs and wants. Without looking it up, I think it's the word "synchronize" or maybe "harmonize" corresponding to "parallel."
(SIDE NOTE: Remember, in the book "parallel" becomes "balanced" in some places)
I've seen many grads pull their hair out (I was one once) trying to see how that verse in Matthew "proves" or derives the whole teaching on getting needs and wants parallel. It doesn't, and wasn't intended to. Again, without the time to look it up, I'll bet the book version (as opposed to the film version) makes the distinction between illustration and derivation easier to pick up, just like my asterisks would have made it easier too. I'll have to remember to include them in the book and movie versions. ;)
I'm sure it has come up often here especially in Raf's big thread.
I forgot two items and they were gnawing at me so I had to make time for them.
Who says he was commissioned by God??? WHO???
rascal,
You missed the point there. I posted that not to deal with the subject you are asking about, but to deal with a different subject.
My point there is that the claim was MADE, not that the claim was VALID.
I believe it was valid, but that’s not what I was pointing out. That’s a whole different issue, and certainly one worth discussing, but not in the context I was dealing with.
In the light of the many clear claims he made to be getting revelation from God which I posted in the links mentioned several posts above (like TNDC p. 34 and TNDC p. 116), it shouldn't be a big leap of logic to think he could make the same claim in PFAL p. 83.
I’m simply making the case (1) that he DID make the claim in the grammar of p. 83, then (2) we grads usually missed or forgot this claim and many others, and (3) thinking is so hostile towards Dr that emotion STILL clouds many grads here now from being able to see that this claim is being made in the grammar of p. 83
***
WordWolf,
The second item I forgot is that I noticed in your long post dissecting my posts that you omitted one of the most important IMO.
This is the same post that set rascal off in the direction I was not going, mentioned above.
Here’s what I posted with some post-post highlighting and a minor format edit:
Page 83 of PFAL reads:
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed"
My paraphrase of PFAL page 83, taking the context into account:
"What men say is relatively worthless.
What God says is crucial.
Even a man like Wierwille (who was commissioned to write FOR GOD) has relatively worthless words when they are merely his own."
If we temporarily omit the parenthetical phrase and the other phrases which refer to the exceptional nature of those writings of a man that were commissioned by God, then my paraphrase could read:
“What men say is relatively worthless.
What God says is crucial.
... Wierwille ... has relatively worthless words ... they are merely his own.”
So, with the exception of the extraordinary commissioning of 1942, my original paraphrase fits PERFECTLY with the entire context of p. 83 of PFAL which is the relative worthlessness of man’s word relative to God’s Word.
"So, with the exception of the extraordinary commissioning of 1942,..."
Extraordinary commissioning? Park that next to some key timeline points from TWLIL and Mrs. W.'s book, like his thoughts of schlocking the preacher-thing altogether before hijacking certain works that proved very profitable in the long run.
Deceptive from the start, When did wierwille actually start twi? Post #1 from skyrider explores this topic.
WordWolf, anyone? You could speak more authoratatively on the timeline than I.
Cinder... to go along with his own personal PLAF interpretation, Mike also has his own timeline... we've been over it ad nauseum but you've got to remember... it's Mike.
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Tom Strange
Here (again) folks we have pages, post after post of Mike's deluded interpretation... nothing more, nothing less...
And it matters not a whit that no one has come to these conclusions but Mike... sad isn't it? ...and yet somehow amusing at the same time!
Mike, and only Mike, is the expert! Do not dare to disagree with him... it only shows how barren your understanding is...
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Mike
Come back to the written forms of PFAL, book and magazine, and see what THEY say. :P
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rascal
Common sense not to mention SCRIPTURES warn us not to Mike. Wierwille`s fruit of the flesh, according to galatians completely eliminates any and all credibility friend.
Ugh...how did yet ANOTHER interesting thread get derailed into an info mercial for wierwille and pfal ?
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Tom Strange
ummm... I think it was CSNY rather than the Airplane.
also... had nothing to do with 'God's voice being clear and strong'... it had to do with the garden being simple, beautiful and perfect.
I'm certain YMMV... but I think most will get the same mileage I did...
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Tom Strange
life is change, how one acts to affect change or reacts to change (for me) is best accomplished by listening to 'that still small voice'.
...and I find it very hard to listen if I'm constantly thumping my chest claiming to know the answers or telling others that they don't.
Try listening sometime Mike... you might discover how much you've missed over all of these years...
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Mike
Tom,
It had to do with them having spirit, a connection directly to God.
It's that spirit part of them that died on "that very day" that they ate the forbidden fruit.
With that spirit and a soul (mind) breathed by God, God's voice was loud and clear.
With no spirit and a mind feeding only on the senses curriculum of the adversary's doing, God's voice diminishes to a still small one AT BEST.
I think you're right about CSNY.
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Tom Strange
You honestly, really think that is what Joni Mitchell was thinking about when she wrote that lyric?
Really?
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T-Bone
When talking about death in the Bible – it all depends on one's definition of "death." Some Bible scholars describe three types of death as a status of separation:
Physical death = separation of the life force [soul] from the body
Spiritual death = separation from God [i.e. what "died" in the Garden of Eden]
Eternal death = separation from God forever
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shazdancer
Mike,
I must admit, I prefer the "kinder, gentler" approach you take these days. But your attempts to one-up the "class" with your knowledge of PFAL is still silly. Even if we knew PFAL cold, it still would not make our lives one iota better.
However, your question to Tom...
The picture isn't "long-forgotten" to me, just irrelevant. VPW taught that God could reveal to you if someone had a devil spirit, God's holy spirit, or simply his own spirit, meaning that he was an alive natural man who hadn't accepted either spirit, a body-and-soul man only.
If anyone forgot these things, it was because we were enthralled with the idea of having power over devil spirits. TWI leaders were happy to feed into our fascination with demons. Wierwille himself would often tell us how God showed him this or that, or how this guy or that guy was sold out to the adversary, and we'd all think, "Wow, Doctor is so spiritual." Wierwille also taught that psychic surgery was real, as was ectoplasm. He was just doing his carnival barker best to get us to pay the big bucks to learn more. Only he was really just the Wizard of Oz, and we didn't need him to get to Kansas.
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Nero
Our experiences really were different. When I was growing up "devil spirits" were always shrouded in mistery. Whenever I asked about them I was shushed. When I asked why we never talked about them - it was because if we did we were giving glory to the devil. I always wondered how we could protect ourselves from something we knew nothing about.
It was a real shock to hear some of the same things you are saying when I went to the advanced class a few years back. People were naming them off and would talk about them like they knew the subject quite well.
They also never pulled the posseso card out much. I don't think I've ever seen it done really... or I was protected from seeing it. I can't be too sure.
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Tom Strange
Ya know... I've often wondered (well not real often, but every now and then) if the whole "possession" and "devil spirit" thing would have been so focused upon if movies like The Exorcist and The Omen et al hadn't been in the theaters and in the popular culture of the times...
Did anyone else wonder why there was so much focus on "possession"? That didn't seem to be the focus of Jesus' ministry... just a part of it... but not a major focus.
Nero... you probably were shielded from it... just a guess.
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waysider
Lord have mercy!
Now we've got Joni Mitchell speaking the wondrous works of God.
It was a rock song, for cryin' out loud!
Joni Mitchell wrote it about her experience , meeting a priest, on her way to Woodstock.
------------------------------------------
Woodstock
Joni Mitchell
I came upon a child of God
As I was walking along the road
I asked him,"Where are you going?"
And this he told me.
He said, "I'm going down to Yazgur's farm
I'm going to join in a rock and roll band
I'm going to camp out on the land
And try to set my soul free
We are star dust
We are golden
We are billion year old carbon
And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden.
"Then can I walk beside you?
I have come here to lose the smog
And I feel as I'm a cog in something turning."
Maybe it's the time of year
Or maybe it's the time of man.
I don't know who I am
But life is for learning
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We're caught in the devil's bargain
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
------------------------------------------------------------
Geeze Louise!
How the heck is that some kind of "secret" message from God?
What's next?
Were AC/DC really modern day Prophets?
Some might say the "Big Balls" song was about the Moon and the Sun.
Pretty heavy stuff!!! Dontcha think??
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T-Bone
I don't buy vpw's definition of discerning of spirits. Socks' and Kit's posts touch upon what I think discerning of spirits may be about. It is listed in I Corinthians 12:10 after prophecy - so I'm inclined to see it as having a relationship with prophecy – i.e. believers having the supernatural ability to determine if prophecy or a revelation came from the Holy Spirit or maybe an insightful analysis of something that was said. I Corinthians 14:29 "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge" comes to mind in that regard. Not sure about this - but perhaps Peter supernaturally knowing Ananias and Sapphira were lying [in Acts 5] and Paul discerning the purpose of Elymas the sorcerer [Acts 13] may be along this line as well...Also, if memory serves me right, in the Greek Text of I Corinthians 12:10 it is just "discerning spirits" - no "of" - which makes me wonder - is it in reference to the person with this ability? Similar to saying "kinds of tongues."
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waysider
God told Abraham
"Kill me a son."
Abe said
"Man, you must be puttin' me on."
God said
"No."
Abe said
"What??"
God said
"Well, you can do what you wanna but next time you see me comin', you better run."
Abe said
"where do you want this killin' done?"
God said
"Out on Highway 61"
Highway 61 Revisited-----------Bob Dylan
-------------------------------------------------------
Does it surprise me that Bob Dylan is a prophet just like Joni Mitchell?
Nope--- Not at all.
What surprises me is finding out that Abraham lived in Mississippi.
(In the Delta, no less.)
Man!
These rock songs are just filled with God-breathed word.
Weren't any of us paying attention?
Maybe we've just forgotten.
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WordWolf
We all know you're still claiming this. But you were claiming this over 4 years ago, and it was refuted back then, and you're still claiming it.
Your straining at a gnat didn't invalidate his point to anyone except you.Right. vpw's last commercial was to say to spend more time in pfal, and the best thing we could do for
people was to put them thru the class.
Hardly an earth-shattering announcement- it was pretty much the message for us for the 70s and 80s.
And here's where the Mikean pfal doctrine comes in.pfal="Scriptures", and "pfal> any Bible".
For those who missed it, that's pretty much the linchpin of Mikean pfal.
Feel free to review it.
And see why he gets so few converts.
Sure looks like Mike saw vpw say "memorize the White Book",
and Mike read that as "Search the Scriptures."
"Master" and "search", of course, being Mike's "private interpretation" and additions.
especially when it's phrases like "PFAL SCRIPTURES", which does not appear anywhere in pfal.
And the idea that SOME of what vpw wrote being God-breathed?
Mike believes this.
Mike believes vpw said this, and Mike believes this is true.
And Mike believes that our NOT embracing this silly thing is wrong of us.
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waysider
HA!
Now I see it!
When Wierwille was quoting God-Breathed scripture, his words were God-Breathed.
(And Vice Versa)
Nikita Krushev memorized the Gospels word-for-word.
Therefore, when he recited them, his words were God-Breathed.
It's all clear to me now.
We must all begin immediately to master The Communist Manifesto.
It's God-Breathed because Krushev could recite it as well.
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WordWolf
Ironic how "the Exorcist" was wildly exaggerated from what was supposedly
the true account, but to hear the official twi line, you'd think it UNDERSTATED
the case....
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Tom Strange
Yeah WW... I'm thinking the whole focus on "possession" was just another case of TWI taking advantage of the "mindset" of the culture of the times, kind of like the "free sex" thing of the hippy movement earlier... just another "hook" used by TWI to get folks initially interested or to keep folks ensnared...
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Mike
Heck no! Who ever said I said THAT?
I just threw her in the mix for cultural variety, to lighten things up a bit. It was a mere convergence of words and sounds more than meaning. It was like comedy relief only not funny, so more like cultural relief. Sorry if I wrote it in a misleading way.
***
I totally agree that this word has many meanings. Discerning which is which is a big job, certainly involving each context. In some passages it could conceivably even take on more than one meaning. In the fellowship I attend we are now studying ADAN and what you mentioned above is rather uppermost in our minds as we study.
***
I agree that the abuses occurred, but I differ on their source. I have presented my evidence here that Dr fought these abuses. He knew people were imitating him in in this area an abusive way, and were getting over-concerned with evil spirits. He had the syllabus changed, and he sent out teachings that led to some taking action like me and my artist friend to produce that cartoon posted. "Light dispels darkness" became a theme to replace cheap reenactments of "The Exorcist."
It was that movie that I alluded to in a much earlier post here as I asked a trivia question about our culture in the 70's and what was influencing us to go a way that needed correcting. This cultural icon of a movie was as major an influence on Discerning of Spirits as Hal Lindsey was a major influence on modern Israel being Biblical.
I'm surprised no posters brought up this movie and how it shaped things back then. It still influences people today into thinking that ds are overt and sensational. It still provides camouflage for the more subtle and more dangerous ones.
Dr fought the dumb stuff leadership and we grads were getting into, but we OFTEN did not listen. For what I did listen to and benefit from back then I think the bucks I paid were puny.
***
Oops! STOP THE PRESSES!
Tom I just read your post on "The Exorcist"
Bingo! I think you got it!
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Tom Strange
I think YOU said you said it (here):
We were talking about Joni Mitchell's song and the phrase "we've got to get back to the garden"... and you posted that reply about "them" (which would refer to Joni Mitchell & CSNY)... since that is who we were talking about...
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Mike
You're right, Tom.
I see it.
I should have put three asterisks separating that last line from the rest, as my regular style is. I assumed that it was obvious that I was only using Joni to highlight one phrase, and NOT using her to represent a definitive multi-point intersection of ideas, and thus thought the asterisks weren't needed there. Maybe because it was a short post. Anyway, time is short for me and I wont be able to look it up right now.
***
I've seen this before, where a minor illustration is mistaken for a major derivation.
In this case, with my missing asterisks, it's a minor illustration being mistaken for a major intersection.
It's in the "needs and wants parallel" thing that I've seen this before. Dr uses a verse in Matthew to illustrate one word in his teaching of needs and wants. Without looking it up, I think it's the word "synchronize" or maybe "harmonize" corresponding to "parallel."
(SIDE NOTE: Remember, in the book "parallel" becomes "balanced" in some places)
I've seen many grads pull their hair out (I was one once) trying to see how that verse in Matthew "proves" or derives the whole teaching on getting needs and wants parallel. It doesn't, and wasn't intended to. Again, without the time to look it up, I'll bet the book version (as opposed to the film version) makes the distinction between illustration and derivation easier to pick up, just like my asterisks would have made it easier too. I'll have to remember to include them in the book and movie versions. ;)
I'm sure it has come up often here especially in Raf's big thread.
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Mike
I forgot two items and they were gnawing at me so I had to make time for them.
rascal,
You missed the point there. I posted that not to deal with the subject you are asking about, but to deal with a different subject.
My point there is that the claim was MADE, not that the claim was VALID.
I believe it was valid, but that’s not what I was pointing out. That’s a whole different issue, and certainly one worth discussing, but not in the context I was dealing with.
In the light of the many clear claims he made to be getting revelation from God which I posted in the links mentioned several posts above (like TNDC p. 34 and TNDC p. 116), it shouldn't be a big leap of logic to think he could make the same claim in PFAL p. 83.
I’m simply making the case (1) that he DID make the claim in the grammar of p. 83, then (2) we grads usually missed or forgot this claim and many others, and (3) thinking is so hostile towards Dr that emotion STILL clouds many grads here now from being able to see that this claim is being made in the grammar of p. 83
***
WordWolf,
The second item I forgot is that I noticed in your long post dissecting my posts that you omitted one of the most important IMO.
This is the same post that set rascal off in the direction I was not going, mentioned above.
Here’s what I posted with some post-post highlighting and a minor format edit:
If we temporarily omit the parenthetical phrase and the other phrases which refer to the exceptional nature of those writings of a man that were commissioned by God, then my paraphrase could read:
“What men say is relatively worthless.
What God says is crucial.
... Wierwille ... has relatively worthless words ... they are merely his own.”
So, with the exception of the extraordinary commissioning of 1942, my original paraphrase fits PERFECTLY with the entire context of p. 83 of PFAL which is the relative worthlessness of man’s word relative to God’s Word.
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cinderpelt
Quote: (Mike)
"So, with the exception of the extraordinary commissioning of 1942,..."
Extraordinary commissioning? Park that next to some key timeline points from TWLIL and Mrs. W.'s book, like his thoughts of schlocking the preacher-thing altogether before hijacking certain works that proved very profitable in the long run.
Deceptive from the start, When did wierwille actually start twi? Post #1 from skyrider explores this topic.
WordWolf, anyone? You could speak more authoratatively on the timeline than I.
~Cinder
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Tom Strange
Cinder... to go along with his own personal PLAF interpretation, Mike also has his own timeline... we've been over it ad nauseum but you've got to remember... it's Mike.
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