awww... c'mon Mike... can't you just simply answer the questions??? (in YOUR own words)
I know that's not your usual M.O. but I do hold out hope (but not my breath)....
Oh Pulleeeeeeze Tom!
And the rest of you, too! I was making light hearted banter with sirguessalot. I don’t feel like putting the effort into answering. It would take too much time, and require too much remembering. Some of those topics I delved into over 30 years ago, some less, but I’ve dispensed with them all. Read the context. I think I stated or implied all of this when I posted that. I think you’re tying to waste my time and I don’t buy it. Ask sirguessalot if he wants to take to the time to compose and type out the relative drivel for which you so wait with baited breath.
*******
...many (here and other places) have come away with the conclusion that these two subjects are indeed treated adequately in the Bible, just not in a textbook format like 20th/21st century students would prefer.
I've participated in discussions on both, here and other places.
Ok, for reviews, these two referenced subjects are “free will” and “God’s foreknowledge.”
Hold onto your hat WW, I’m going to be agreeing with you more than usual here.
I have seen a tiny bit of what you (and Raf?) put together on foreknowledge and thought it was good. For many years I thought these two subjects were almost entirely absent from the surviving scriptures. Seeing a little of your work on foreknowledge here a few years ago got my attention. I also was influenced by the attitude of my fellowship teacher here in San Diego who seemed to have the same view as you on it. Since then I’ve been slowly changing my position on this.
In fact, I’d very much like to have some links to the work you have posted on these two subjects.
***
Now for a little disagreement.
When you say “adequately” I take minor exception. I’d say that what is stated in the scriptures SHOULD be adequate for the average modern reader, but we know there are glaring exceptions.
In the 70’s I almost fell into a hole in thinking my Young’s Concordance research was on the money as I noticed that those two specific phrases (foreknowledge [of God], and free will) are not OVERTLY treated at all the way we do in modern language and culture.
Then we saw in the mid 90’s that Chris Geer and his minions fell into the same hole regarding foreknowledge. Then later the mighty Schoenheit and his CES research team jumped headlong into the same hole. (...reminds me of Rebus Canneebus & Co. in Firesign’s “Everything You Know Is Wrong” all jumping into the Comet Kahotek’s hole to the center of the Earth...) And aren’t ALL Calvinist’s in the same or similar hole regarding free will?
It looks to me that these two concepts were culturally ASSUMED as part of the background against which the scriptures were written. These assumptions seem to pop out at times, but not as overtly as some modernists would like. Now in our culture the same two concepts are ASSAILED, and the pop-ups not easily seen.
I see the cultural influences that have pretty well obscured these two concepts, and what may be adequate for one believer may be less than adequate for others. In the 70's it was Dr’s insistence (by revelation) on the reality of free will and foreknowledge that pulled me back up to safety. Any light you may share on finding these concepts in the ancient scriptures will be well received by me.
Mike, if you right click the picture you can scroll down to Properties. Click that and it will open a window with info including the URL. Then copy and paste the URL into the image line.
Word wolf is right--if you need the URL then you need to have the picture uploaded on the net somewhere, like photobucket or a blog or something first, before getting the URL.
Ok, I've been learning how these things work a little.
Here is the cartoon I was talking about in post #22 of this thread:
I don't know how to crop yet, so I had to include Key #7 also.
Please study this cartoon image. Blow it up to see all the detail the artist, Kellagh Tubb, put into it. There was a lot of love put into this, as some of us were WELL aware of the many abuses raging in the early 80's.
Many thousands of AC students and grads saw this poster, which was available at two AC classes run here in SD in '81 and '84 (not sure of this last date). I don't know if it was used at any other ACs.
How much better things would have been if this key had been more prominent in our minds!
In looking at the above cartoon images I am remembering more from that time.
What I remember was where we got the ideas for that illustration. A verbal teaching was circulating that the mere speaking of the Word was all that was needed to deal with most devil spirits, and that ritualistic announcements and castings out, complete with body language and sound effects WERE TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. The Word, spoken in love, was all that was needed to drive out most spirits sans ceremony.
Dunno, it seems pretty darned silly to give credence to advice about driving spirits out when in hind sight we find out that the ones giving the info were chock a block filled with evil themselves.
Seeing as the sources of the information were untrustworthey......the cartoons are pretty meaningless.
I can't say that it surprisies me, but this thread is a microcosm of what TWI was all about. IE, the blind leading the blinder.
Have any posting in here actually delivered anyone from a spirit that was possessing them? Have any of you been delivered from a possessing spirit?
I can answer yes to both questions. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. He came to set captives free. He still sets captives free. And there are still some who are allowed to work together with Him in His ministry.
You can have a million keys -- it don't mean spit. If Jesus Christ isn't involved, the eyes of your understanding haven't been enlightened and you're grasping at straws -- it's that simple.
Those readers who are NOT so religiously inclined might want to show Greek2me
just exactly where Jesus Christ is involved in the cartoon of post #86,
since he is so obviously missing it.
If I were to make a guess at it I would say it has something to do with the Bible taking the place of the absent Christ. Seeing as how Christ is the subject of the Bible I think one who follows what it says are in a sense following Christ. I'd have to look at the scriptures you mentioned to see if you're referring to something else.
"You can have a million keys -- it don't mean spit. If Jesus Christ isn't involved, the eyes of your understanding haven't been enlightened and you're grasping at straws -- it's that simple. "
Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Seems it always comes back to KNOWING HIM. Not "keys", not formulae, not having the "inside scoop" on super-spiritual info about someone when one has neither the care (the Shepherd's heart), nor the guts to help.
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Tom Strange
Hey Mike!
Discern this please...
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Eyesopen
Swatratra? Is that you?
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waysider
As seen through the eyes of a child.
http://www.thewritingmachine.net/archives/...s_ghost_sto.php
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Mike
Oh Pulleeeeeeze Tom!
And the rest of you, too! I was making light hearted banter with sirguessalot. I don’t feel like putting the effort into answering. It would take too much time, and require too much remembering. Some of those topics I delved into over 30 years ago, some less, but I’ve dispensed with them all. Read the context. I think I stated or implied all of this when I posted that. I think you’re tying to waste my time and I don’t buy it. Ask sirguessalot if he wants to take to the time to compose and type out the relative drivel for which you so wait with baited breath.
*******
Ok, for reviews, these two referenced subjects are “free will” and “God’s foreknowledge.”
Hold onto your hat WW, I’m going to be agreeing with you more than usual here.
I have seen a tiny bit of what you (and Raf?) put together on foreknowledge and thought it was good. For many years I thought these two subjects were almost entirely absent from the surviving scriptures. Seeing a little of your work on foreknowledge here a few years ago got my attention. I also was influenced by the attitude of my fellowship teacher here in San Diego who seemed to have the same view as you on it. Since then I’ve been slowly changing my position on this.
In fact, I’d very much like to have some links to the work you have posted on these two subjects.
***
Now for a little disagreement.
When you say “adequately” I take minor exception. I’d say that what is stated in the scriptures SHOULD be adequate for the average modern reader, but we know there are glaring exceptions.
In the 70’s I almost fell into a hole in thinking my Young’s Concordance research was on the money as I noticed that those two specific phrases (foreknowledge [of God], and free will) are not OVERTLY treated at all the way we do in modern language and culture.
Then we saw in the mid 90’s that Chris Geer and his minions fell into the same hole regarding foreknowledge. Then later the mighty Schoenheit and his CES research team jumped headlong into the same hole. (...reminds me of Rebus Canneebus & Co. in Firesign’s “Everything You Know Is Wrong” all jumping into the Comet Kahotek’s hole to the center of the Earth...) And aren’t ALL Calvinist’s in the same or similar hole regarding free will?
It looks to me that these two concepts were culturally ASSUMED as part of the background against which the scriptures were written. These assumptions seem to pop out at times, but not as overtly as some modernists would like. Now in our culture the same two concepts are ASSAILED, and the pop-ups not easily seen.
I see the cultural influences that have pretty well obscured these two concepts, and what may be adequate for one believer may be less than adequate for others. In the 70's it was Dr’s insistence (by revelation) on the reality of free will and foreknowledge that pulled me back up to safety. Any light you may share on finding these concepts in the ancient scriptures will be well received by me.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
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Mike
socks,
Thanks for the info on posting pictures.
I converted the illustration to .JPG and I successfully uploaded the picture.
Then I found the button labeled "insert image" but it asks for an URL.
What's next?
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WordWolf
That's strange.
If it's looking for a URL, however, you probably should be linking from an image hosting website,
like photobucket or something.
However, my understanding was that if you're uploading directly to the GSC,
that you can provide the location of the image on your pc, and it will upload directly to the GSC.
Depends on what you meant.
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Bramble
Mike, if you right click the picture you can scroll down to Properties. Click that and it will open a window with info including the URL. Then copy and paste the URL into the image line.
Word wolf is right--if you need the URL then you need to have the picture uploaded on the net somewhere, like photobucket or a blog or something first, before getting the URL.
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
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Mike
Thanks for the help.
The file is still on my hard drive. I think my attempt to upload it did fail.
I've never used photobucket or anything like it before.
Isn't the upload button (seen below when editing/posting) supposed to get the file to Greasespot's hard drive,
and then I'd supply THAT url (whatever it is...) ?
What's the difference between uploading and attaching in that same editing/posting set of buttons ?
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potato
after uploading, I used the Manage Current Attachments to select the image.
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Mike
Ok, I've been learning how these things work a little.
Here is the cartoon I was talking about in post #22 of this thread:
I don't know how to crop yet, so I had to include Key #7 also.
Please study this cartoon image. Blow it up to see all the detail the artist, Kellagh Tubb, put into it. There was a lot of love put into this, as some of us were WELL aware of the many abuses raging in the early 80's.
Many thousands of AC students and grads saw this poster, which was available at two AC classes run here in SD in '81 and '84 (not sure of this last date). I don't know if it was used at any other ACs.
How much better things would have been if this key had been more prominent in our minds!
Edited by MikeLink to comment
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frank123lol
Keys,Remember keys,No written in stone,more like hey this is a suggestion,
Lcm remember him? used different ways to illustrate.
Also it is not some magic formula,If God gives you somthing then you have it.
Almost all we need is in the bible The "keys" were are God working with us as individuals.
The pressence of spirits,and if evil whether you may cast them out.Bugga bugga
Spent way too much on this stuff.See it has not been taught since the first century!!
All smoke
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Mike
Frankly, I don't think you get the point.
Yes, there were abuses.
No, they were not unnoticed. Some of us tried to do something about it.
What did YOU do about it back then, to help people, in this area?
What are you doing NOW about it?
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waysider
I visited my buddy's grave site this past spring.
Does that count?
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Mike
I'm sure it counts for SOMETHING.
I am sorry about your friend.
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Mike
In looking at the above cartoon images I am remembering more from that time.
What I remember was where we got the ideas for that illustration. A verbal teaching was circulating that the mere speaking of the Word was all that was needed to deal with most devil spirits, and that ritualistic announcements and castings out, complete with body language and sound effects WERE TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. The Word, spoken in love, was all that was needed to drive out most spirits sans ceremony.
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rascal
Dunno, it seems pretty darned silly to give credence to advice about driving spirits out when in hind sight we find out that the ones giving the info were chock a block filled with evil themselves.
Seeing as the sources of the information were untrustworthey......the cartoons are pretty meaningless.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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Greek2me
I can't say that it surprisies me, but this thread is a microcosm of what TWI was all about. IE, the blind leading the blinder.
Have any posting in here actually delivered anyone from a spirit that was possessing them? Have any of you been delivered from a possessing spirit?
I can answer yes to both questions. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. He came to set captives free. He still sets captives free. And there are still some who are allowed to work together with Him in His ministry.
You can have a million keys -- it don't mean spit. If Jesus Christ isn't involved, the eyes of your understanding haven't been enlightened and you're grasping at straws -- it's that simple.
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Danny
Greek
Amen
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Mike
Those readers who are NOT so religiously inclined might want to show Greek2me
just exactly where Jesus Christ is involved in the cartoon of post #86,
since he is so obviously missing it.
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Danny
Mike I believe Greek understands just fine.
Maybe it's the old you that needs the checking.
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cman
Greek2me,
Yes I have on the first part, but I wouldn't phrase it that way.
Scared the crap out of me till I learned more about what happened.
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Larry N Moore
If I were to make a guess at it I would say it has something to do with the Bible taking the place of the absent Christ. Seeing as how Christ is the subject of the Bible I think one who follows what it says are in a sense following Christ. I'd have to look at the scriptures you mentioned to see if you're referring to something else.
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WordWolf
Nice pictures.
Nice pictures, however, captions, and cartoons are not authoritative,
neither for Scripture nor for pfal.
I had a different set of cartoons at one point for the same keys, and they were
neat, but not authoritative either.
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cinderpelt
Quote:
"You can have a million keys -- it don't mean spit. If Jesus Christ isn't involved, the eyes of your understanding haven't been enlightened and you're grasping at straws -- it's that simple. "
Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Seems it always comes back to KNOWING HIM. Not "keys", not formulae, not having the "inside scoop" on super-spiritual info about someone when one has neither the care (the Shepherd's heart), nor the guts to help.
~Cinder
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