Discerning of spirits

[Mike]

WG,

I think a lot of this AC stuff was taught to us because HAD IT NOT, we'd have fallen into the same abuses EVEN FASTER.

This happens to many churches when the Gospels are read, because they are loaded with devil spirit situations. I think Dr wanted to help steer us away from those typical churchy abuses, which he surely saw plenty of, by teaching us these LIMITS on Discerning of Spirits. It's too bad few heeded them. I helped design that poster illustration for just this purpose, that many were not reading their AC syllabus and few were walking in love to others.

You're right, it was wrong what was practiced. Efforts were made to fix it but few listened.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Mike

[WordWolf]

I'm just thinking off the top of my head and maybe WordWolf can find the scripture -- but the lady that mocked the apostles. She had a Viper spirit or something (sharp tongue). They couldn't do anything for a little while....

But it is an interesting question - I'll have to think on it some more.

I think you meant Acts 16:16-18

"16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour."

This doesn't address the original question which was:

Can anyone think of any Scrpitural documentations of God giving revelation about someone's "being possessed" that was just "for their learning", and not followed by deliverance?

[Watered Garden]

I've been in several churches where NONE of this was taught. I don't what they taught in Evangelical and Reformed, but they don't teach manifestations of holy spirit at all in most churches. If touched on at all, they are called gifts.

And Mike, it seems you are all about the information. I haven't seen any answers to the questions I've asked. I can't see that it is important to know this just so we can be different from a "real" church. That's not the purpose for information; we should be wanting to deliver people from the wiles of Satan and bring them to Christ.

I guess my whole question is not why the great doctor wanted people to know this, but what good does it do to know it in the realm of serving others the bread of life.

There is no sense knowing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin unless it is information you can use to help someone come closer to God. Unless you just want to be the one in the know.

As Christians, we shouldn't be falling into the abuses, period. Knowledge puffeth up, remember?

WG

Edited November 1, 2007 by Watered Garden

[sirguessalot]

though it may be hard for some

i suggest looking into the notions of "chakras"

without falling into the new age mumbo jumbo

and moving away from notions of evil entities flitting around

basically

within the human self is a spectrum of "centers"..."gatherings"

corresponding to various functions (food, sex, control, compassion, communication, vision, etc...)

all of these are "good spirits"

and function as a whole

but "bedevil us" when one gets knots on it

which keeps the whole from working together

and so its like a single "spirit" possesses us

and we become a flute that can only play a single note

or a paint brush that only allows one color

"discerning spirits" is another way of distinguishing the core centers of the whole being

and how it may be affecting our physical, mental and emotional self

the only reason a spirit of God is evil...is because it has a kink in it and is out of place..or overemphasized

we dont cast an evil entity out of us

but we comb out the knots so that things are flowing again

thus, the "evil spirit" is cast out...but not literally

we find that we have a food issue

or a relationship issue

or a forgiveness issue

etc...

and while this may be associated with new age stuff

or with india and hindu

but it has its roots in abraham

and ancient jewish thought

...and Jesus was a good jew, if nothing else

maybe read the book of Rev and replace "churches" with "chakras"

Edited November 1, 2007 by sirguessalot

[cinderpelt]

WG~

Exactly! I started this thread because of the disparity between how this manifestation showed up in doctrine and practice. Somewhere along the way (pun perhaps intended), I lost sight of the fact that God equipped His children to carry out His heart, to bring people closer to Him. Somehow, this one in particular became a means to silence and alienate those who had a different stance than that of the "powers that were."

I don't think I ever spoke an accusation of demonization against anyone, but I'm embarrassed to say that I heard plenty and never voiced my misgivings.

~Cinder

[Nottawayfer]

Oh gee whiz, Mike. Get over yourself.

[What The Hey]

Better to focus on the evidence at hand than to ignore and pretend that it just doesn't exist because it might prove detrimental to ones pet theories :)

Thats called living in DENIAL!

Frankly (and truthfully) speaking, we haven't seen a whole lot of evidence presented, but we all certainly have heard a whole lot of other people's stow-ries.

Man oh man, those ***damn space aliens are everywhere committing all those evil deeds!

People change because of what they learn due to hard and factual evidence being presented to them - not other people's stories presented to them.

Anybody can make up and tell you any kind of stow-ry!

Some people call it revisionism, others will call it denial.

(The Holocaust issue being a good example here. Some is based on hard and factual evidence. The rest is based on other people's stow-ries.)

After the hard and factual evidence is presented (and little to none is ever presented at GSC) it's those who refuse to change who are living in denial.

BUT --- it's going to take more than other people's tales (could be their "tails") and stow-ries to change us!

[Watered Garden]

Cinder,

I apologize for letting myself be enticed down a rabbit trail. Seems someone may have an "enticing" spirit around here.

Seriously, the whole DOS thing is just too strange. Look, I took the advanced class in 1976 and I was never in a position to say "Okay, God, is so-and-so possessed, and if so, by what, and if so and by what, may I cast it out?"

The closest I ever came to anything of the sort was when I had just moved to Charleston and was walking my dog down the street, headed home. It was about dark:thirty and a car pulled up beside me, and the guy behind the wheel mumbled something at me. I said "Excuse me?" and I don't know what else he said, because without looking it up in the syllabus, or reaching into the cookie jar, or anything else, I knew in a flash that this man meant me great harm, and I shouted at him, "You get the he11 out of here IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!" He hit the accelerator so fast his tires screamed and he went flying down the road. I never saw him again.

I believe that was discerning of spirits. No time to explore, examine or categorize. Just had to move it on down the line.

WG

[socks]

tif's may not be recognized by the Uploader, Mike. Not sure - but if you can resave it as a .jpg or. gif, it wil upload. I'd suggest gif it it's a line drawing with color. If you can, maybe try both jpg and gif conversions, and see which is the smallest file size.

Yeah, that's it. The Uploader wants a jpg or gif.

[cinderpelt]

WG~

[cinderpelt]

~That's what I'm getting at- we know that spiritual evil forces exist, thier fruit is all around us. I've had similar experiences, and boy! that Name above all names is powerful!

Quoth WG:

I believe that was discerning of spirits. No time to explore, examine or categorize. Just had to move it on down the line.

And That's the beauty of the simplicity of faith, and a Father who's watching out for you!

~Cinder

[Tom Strange]

tif's may not be recognized by the Uploader, Mike. Not sure - but if you can resave it as a .jpg or. gif, it wil upload. I'd suggest gif it it's a line drawing with color. If you can, maybe try both jpg and gif conversions, and see which is the smallest file size.

Yeah, that's it. The Uploader wants a jpg or gif.

I've never been able to post a .tif or a .gif...

[Ham]

I kinda like Sir Guesses contributions here..

it makes sense in a way..

the way I have started to look at it.. we're all so complex, so many parts of "us".. sometimes, maybe some of "us" go on a holiday or something and run amock..

I don't know how.. but I've seen somebody's core personality.. and it is light. But there are a lot of dark shadows..

"I'm too this. I'm too that. I don't have enough of this.. I don't have enough of that.."

and they are all illusions..

[waysider]

Mike

Yeah, I remember hearing in the AC that you could ask God for DOS to see if someone was born-again.(Of Holy Spirit)

I don't think it's some hidden "gem" that no one remembers as you suggest.

In fact, when I was in Cleveland in the early '70s, people used to say they would ask God if a person was born again so they could skip past Romans 10:9&10 and get to the meatier stuff.

My friend who was declared a "seed boy" by an AC grad spoke in tongues.

(Though the person who made this declaration did not know that)

Do you see what a can of worms this opens?

Was the stuff about "SIT= born again" incorrect?

How come they could detect a "wrong seed" in a person who, by their criteria, had the "right seed"?

How come nobody at the upper levels of TWI got revelation that VPW was "possessed" when clearly he was a text book example, on several points, of what he professed in the Advanced Class to exemplify devil possession?

And last but not least, what proof do we have that the AC was anything more than personal gobble-de-gook spewed forth by a guy who was full of himself and delusional as well?

The PFAL class was not "God Breathed", Mike.

(Not the foundational, not the intermediate, not the Advanced.)

How many more times do you really need to hear that?

[Mike]

I've been in several churches where NONE of this was taught. I don't what they taught in Evangelical and Reformed, but they don't teach manifestations of holy spirit at all in most churches. If touched on at all, they are called gifts.

I'm sure that any church (and there are lots of them, especially the very small ones) that taught Discerning of Spirits in ANY way, but omitted the kind of limitations Dr taught in the AC, would be obviously repugnant to you long before you entered in for a service.

And Mike, it seems you are all about the information. I haven't seen any answers to the questions I've asked. I can't see that it is important to know this just so we can be different from a "real" church. That's not the purpose for information; we should be wanting to deliver people from the wiles of Satan and bring them to Christ.

Sorry, WG, if I missed any important (non-rhetorical) questions, but I thought I DID address this one when I brought up the Four Gospels earlier.

If complete omission of these things from teaching was the way to go, then why are they in the Gospels? The Gospels were written late in the first century curriculum. They were for advanced students who had already long absorbed the epistles.

I guess my whole question is not why the great doctor wanted people to know this, but what good does it do to know it in the realm of serving others the bread of life.

Well, it's not too late to get the complete and and accurate lowdown on these matters, then add in love, and presto!, we get to help others like Jesus did, and the 12 did when they went out WOW.

There is no sense knowing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin unless it is information you can use to help someone come closer to God. Unless you just want to be the one in the know.

Self serving motivations are the scourge. I must fight them in myself all the time, so I can relate how others do too. When we let up, we screw up.

As Christians, we shouldn't be falling into the abuses, period. Knowledge puffeth up, remember?

Yes. I always wanted to ask, "Does the knowledge of that 'puffing-up' verse ALSO puff one up?" Then I realized that if the knowledge of love, love of God and others, is a high priority, then puffing up turns to building up. A puffed up edifice can't stand up through an earthquake. A structure built on agape and the Word does stand.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Mike

[Mike]

In the least I think these definitions limit God. And I think the whole damn AC was very dangerous.

I saw people come back from the AC with so many stupid ideas, it blows me away, the least of which is that Star Wars promoted the holy trinity. (Darth the father, Luke the son, and Yoda the holy spirit)

I think the AC was a work in progress. As we screwed it up Dr tweaked it to get us (or those listening) back on track.

I also think that it was for feelings similar to yours that in Dr's last/lost teaching, in his final instructions to us, mastering the Foundational Class and mastering the Intermediate Class was emphasized (through repetition), but the AC was twice missing from the list. Without mastering the Foundational materials, as Dr often pointed out in the beginning of his ACs, the AC is useless.

But SERIOUSLY, even though the Star Wars trinity push is ridiculous, who can deny that Princess Leah is Mother Mary, the Blessed Virgin?

Edited November 1, 2007 by Mike

[waysider]

"The 12 went out WOW".

HaHaHaHaHaHa!

That's a good one, Mike.

I hadn't heard it in over 20 or 30 years but it still gives me a chuckle.

Do you think they had "green cards"?

[Watered Garden]

Han only knows.

[Mike]

So Han is the solo knower...

I think you're on to something, WG.....

[waysider]

But SERIOUSLY, even though the Star Wars trinity push is ridiculous, who can deny that Princess Leah is Mother Mary, the Blessed Virgin?

Gosh!!!

That's a good point, Mike.

Maybe Scooby Doo was John The Baptist!

I mean, who really knows for sure?

[Ham]

Han only knows.

no.. I think it's "only Han's hairdresser knows"..

[sirguessalot]

to add...cuz i never did clarify my thoughts on the practical side...

imo, the general practical application of "discerning of spirits" looks like:

- the discerner's dedication to a life of personal spiritual introspection into THEIR OWN inner spiritual weave (this would require knowledge of some sort of contemplative practice)

- getting beyond magic and mythic christian thinking and other inflated faith claims (this would require a radical shift in worldviews for many)

- engaging in quality inquiry and mutual conversation with the "discernee" (there are plenty of arts and forms of such friendly inquiry...i suggest quaker forms for protestants)

- ordinary activities that correspond to helping whatever "spirit is bedeviling them." (this includes psychologies, therapies, contemplative prayer, exercise, diet, reading, etc...)

i pray that more christians snap out of this mythical funk that has basically cut us off from an authentic spiritual life

its as if most have traded the richness within the judeo-christian history for industrial-strength cliches and other quick fixes

and while there may be evil critters and fragments of psychic stuff lingering here and there...i think we take the evil minion metaphor way too far into the context of "spiritual discernment"

[Mike]

Sirguessalot,

Greetings oh most complicatarian from the artworld.

Before seeing certain things in the last stages of written PFAL (magazine form, late ’84-early ’85) these recent years, I had looked deeply in the areas you often suggest here. Artificial Intelligence, Quantum Mechanics, Godel/Cantor Mathematics, Brain Anatomy, just to name a few.

In those days I looked for modern scientific correlates for devil spirits and saw some.

Here’s an example. One of the most powerful features of elementary calculus is it’s ability to describe and handle the very complex idea called “relative maxima and minima.” Some of you may need to wikigoogle your way through this to follow me now.

In ordinary calculus the idea of relative minima is akin to an electron being stuck in an atom’s nucleus. It also corresponds to getting stuck in a rut in real life. It also corresponds to a lying influence, i.e. a devil spirit.

In all of these related yet distant concepts the great thing to celebrate is that there IS “Release From Your Prisons,” which is the title of the first chapter of the Blue Book.

The correspondence is that in relative minima calculus the tools are there to look (and to know that it’s worth looking) to see if there isn’t a way out of the minima. The function can take on different shapes and we can know of other minima by pushing the appropriate buttons.

In quantum mechanics the electron escapes it’s nuclear prison by waiting for it’s probabilistic tunnel time to come up and it just ooozes out.

In God’s Word we can see His Son has totally defeated the liar and set the captives free, casting out the devils. When we look hard enough at him and accurately enough we become like him. It’s only here in the Word (not at all in math or physics) that we see THE believer versus the defeated spiritual powers.

Seeing the believer, Sirguessalot, has circumvented my need to “go beyond” the idiomatic imagery of the lost ancient scriptures and the recovered PFAL texts. They suffice just fine.

***

I could have gone on with relative maxima and everyday life correspondents like illusions grandeur and “settling for straw.” Decades ago in computer programming I toyed often infinite loops and possession, and of course later the idea of a computer virus came up. Biological viruses and devil spirits or possession were actually discussed in some ACs I’ve heard. They didn’t come up in mine or in the taped ’79 version.

But the only benefit of my “goings-beyond” the vocabulary and idiomatic imagery of the Word that I’ve ever seen is the ability to rid ourselves of embarrassing guilts-by-association that crop up when we want to hang out with the fiercely anti-biblical luminaries of modern academia.

That’s not good enough for me. I want to DO what Jesus did, not just talk in circles about it. It’s how we interact (exchanging the Word) with the other elements in the Body of Christ that we see the Christ in us go from the HOPE of glory to the GLORY!

[sirguessalot]

hi Mike

help me out here...can you please show me where i've suggested Artificial Intelligence, Quantum Mechanics, Godel/Cantor Mathematics, or Brain Anatomy?

as for the rest of your post...it's not hard to get what yer trying to say...i just can't help but wonder if/when you might go off by yourself into the woods for 40 days and nights without food

...kiddin...kinda

but seriously, i can hardly count how many misplaced assumptions and sideways implications you seem to make about my perspective in your post

which is fine with me...i just figure you might find it helpful to know that it very much seems that way to me

Edited November 2, 2007 by sirguessalot

[cman]

though it may be hard for some

i suggest looking into the notions of "chakras"

without falling into the new age mumbo jumbo

and moving away from notions of evil entities flitting around

basically

within the human self is a spectrum of "centers"..."gatherings"

corresponding to various functions (food, sex, control, compassion, communication, vision, etc...)

all of these are "good spirits"

and function as a whole

but "bedevil us" when one gets knots on it

which keeps the whole from working together

and so its like a single "spirit" possesses us

and we become a flute that can only play a single note

or a paint brush that only allows one color

"discerning spirits" is another way of distinguishing the core centers of the whole being

and how it may be affecting our physical, mental and emotional self

the only reason a spirit of God is evil...is because it has a kink in it and is out of place..or overemphasized

we dont cast an evil entity out of us

but we comb out the knots so that things are flowing again

thus, the "evil spirit" is cast out...but not literally

we find that we have a food issue

or a relationship issue

or a forgiveness issue

etc...

and while this may be associated with new age stuff

or with india and hindu

but it has its roots in abraham

and ancient jewish thought

...and Jesus was a good jew, if nothing else

maybe read the book of Rev and replace "churches" with "chakras"

Along with sirg's post that followed, I don't know of a better presentation I've ever heard of on the Spirit and spirits.

So simple yet some will not hear.

It just takes a little to learn a lot......

http://www.google.com/search?q=chakras&amp...GL_enUS235US235