Without rehashing the whole believing issue, in the end whatever the mechanics one chooses to get the desired result God is still the one who moves first in that we have something to believe.
And then say you have to confess Jesus as Lord to be 'born again'.
Being born again is the work of the spirit continually.
You operate the spirit, NO, the spirit operates in you.
There is a case for both in scripture
All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
I Corinthians 12:11
1 Corinthians 14:32
and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
You reach up to 'daddy's cookie jar'.
Yeah, right, fantasizing is what it is and was.
Mind games. Thoughts imagined, not given.
Your experience is not the same as others, you cant speak for all by your experience.
Ask, is what is demanded.
No questions, no answers.
To Ask is a request not a demand
We were given answers that answered questions that were given to us.
And not from the heart of the asker.
In some cases and in others not. I could say the same about school.
A god was formed before our minds in twi.
Did anything happen or change to prove to ourselves that God is real?
Was there any actual contact?
I see George's point from the atheist thread.
The Way stop cold the freedom to explore the spiritual and relied upon someone telling us how God works. And we bought it.
Not trying to be hateful spiteful or deter growth, but to look in other directions.
How many really experienced the presence of God and see him as promised by the what Jesus said?
I believe so, then again my experience is not a guarantee for truth for you.
I find that very little of what God has given me, have I asked for. he gives it because he loves, like I feed my kids meals or do their laundry or give them hugs. I shouldn't wait for them to ask for those things. I'm not constantly looking in the cookie jar to see if God has something for me because I think he'll just give me a cookie when there's one for me.
I know the bible says ask, but I don't understand what it means by ask because my experience is different. my most vivid memory of asking for something was after the new twi biblical family class and how condemning it was to me. I railed on God and asked him why he would want me to give up something wonderful that they were teaching in that class was wrong, and I got an answer. it was one that helped free me from the twi prison. but I didn't ask for anything, just for an answer.
I know the bible says ask, but I don't understand what it means by ask because my experience is different. my most vivid memory of asking for something was after the new twi biblical family class and how condemning it was to me. I railed on God and asked him why he would want me to give up something wonderful that they were teaching in that class was wrong, and I got an answer. it was one that helped free me from the twi prison. but I didn't ask for anything, just for an answer.
I fell in love. according to twi's class, it was wrong for me to have a relationship with the man for several reasons... 1. my divorce wasn't final 2. he wasn't in the "household" and 3. sex outside of marriage is wrong. I sat through the class like a good little twit and felt so condemned because to be a good christian, I'd have to give up someone who'd become my best friend, plus it was just an awesome change from 20 years of being humped by my selfish ex-husband to being loved by someone who actually cared about me. so I got ....ed at God, because if these people were teaching his "word" then he was ultimately responsible, and I took my grievance to his feet. I told him all I could see by following that stupid prissy class was a wasteland of loneliness and why should I give up this relationship that made me happy? I got an answer, a loving, freeing one that helped me take my first steps away from twi.
I find that very little of what God has given me, have I asked for. he gives it because he loves, like I feed my kids meals or do their laundry or give them hugs. I shouldn't wait for them to ask for those things.
u got that right potato
another one that kills u have to know what's available
in the bible God has taken the role of parent (father) over master. so... children don't know what's available. they learn it over years. their parents teach them, they also learn by trial and error, and they ask for a lot when they know the answer is no, just to make sure. parents are supposed to be the example, then the sounding board, as kids grow up and figure out more and more what works for them in their lives, comparing, one would hope, to moral guidelines taught them by their parents (I'm fuzzy on this one because I didn't get that kind of teaching at home). over time, kids check in less and less with their parents about what's ok because they learned to make decisions for themselves. they're autonomous, but their parents' voices are still in their heads for better or worse. still, no one knows or understands everything or knows about everything. even our parents have a couple of decades of experience on us all the time, and they're not even God. so why would God expect us to get it all the time, and expect us to ask before he gives? I don't think we have to know everything that's available for God to give, but once we do know it makes it easier.
I think twi kept us children so we always have to ask and we could never become autonomous.
in the bible God has taken the role of parent (father) over master. so... children don't know what's available. they learn it over years. their parents teach them, they also learn by trial and error, and they ask for a lot when they know the answer is no, just to make sure. parents are supposed to be the example, then the sounding board, as kids grow up and figure out more and more what works for them in their lives, comparing, one would hope, to moral guidelines taught them by their parents (I'm fuzzy on this one because I didn't get that kind of teaching at home). over time, kids check in less and less with their parents about what's ok because they learned to make decisions for themselves. they're autonomous, but their parents' voices are still in their heads for better or worse. still, no one knows or understands everything or knows about everything. even our parents have a couple of decades of experience on us all the time, and they're not even God. so why would God expect us to get it all the time, and expect us to ask before he gives? I don't think we have to know everything that's available for God to give, but once we do know it makes it easier.
I think twi kept us children so we always have to ask and we could never become autonomous.
Oops!
What I meant to say was, "WOW! Great insight, all! Thanks for your contributions to my journey toward autonomy!"
Next to "The Law of Believing", this might just be one of the most damaging doctrines taught in TWI.
When God speaks to you, by direct revelation, He is the one that initiates the conversation, not you.(in my opinion)
And it's not always a "small, still voice" nor does it appear at your beck and call, which is really what your doing the reaching amounts to.
People were many times confusing intuition or common sense or even psychological responses to previous experiences as "a small still voice". The latter of the three can be a downright dangerous one to treat as "revelation" because it can have negative under-pinnings, like when someone would say "Oh, I knew by discerning of spirits" that Joe Blow had this spirit or that spirit or that he was a seed boy simply because their mind was reacting to a previous experience that had affected a deep part of their psyche.
Try telling a person who is already suicidal that they are born again of the devil and that you know it's true because you "reached up in Daddy's cookie jar" and he told you. Go ahead and tell them there is no hope they can ever be born-again of God's spirit even though they have a genuine desire to know God. Tell them you know because you "reached up in Daddy's cookie". You had better be DAMN sure you are absolutely correct because your mind wont be able to think of anything else as you share the burden of carrying their casket to the grave. That's what someone in TWI did to one of my best friends except that they didn't feel the weight of the coffin, I did!
You can't just "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" whenever you think you would like a cookie.
If He has a "cookie" to give you, you will get it when He is good and ready to give it to you!
Can anyone think of any Scrpitural documentations of God giving revelation about someone's "being possessed" that was just "for their learning", and not followed by deliverance? This doctrine ruined many lives and reputations. Inflated countless egos too!
Next to "The Law of Believing", this might just be one of the most damaging doctrines taught in TWI.
When God speaks to you, by direct revelation, He is the one that initiates the conversation, not you.(in my opinion)
And it's not always a "small, still voice" nor does it appear at your beck and call, which is really what your doing the reaching amounts to.
People were many times confusing intuition or common sense or even psychological responses to previous experiences as "a small still voice". The latter of the three can be a downright dangerous one to treat as "revelation" because it can have negative under-pinnings, like when someone would say "Oh, I knew by discerning of spirits" that Joe Blow had this spirit or that spirit or that he was a seed boy simply because their mind was reacting to a previous experience that had affected a deep part of their psyche.
Try telling a person who is already suicidal that they are born again of the devil and that you know it's true because you "reached up in Daddy's cookie jar" and he told you. Go ahead and tell them there is no hope they can ever be born-again of God's spirit even though they have a genuine desire to know God. Tell them you know because you "reached up in Daddy's cookie". You had better be DAMN sure you are absolutely correct because your mind wont be able to think of anything else as you share the burden of carrying their casket to the grave. That's what someone in TWI did to one of my best friends except that they didn't feel the weight of the coffin, I did!
You can't just "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" whenever you think you would like a cookie.
If He has a "cookie" to give you, you will get it when He is good and ready to give it to you!
1 Kings 19:11-13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
========
This can be found ONCE in Scripture.
In the Old Testament.
And twi made a big deal about the "still small voice", and a practice and doctrine around it.
How shaky was this premise?
Here's the same verses in the New American Standard, a more consistent English translation.
1 Kings 19:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)
11So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD " And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
12After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing.
13When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
==========
The NIV?
1 Kings 19:11-13 (New International Version)
11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
====================
I will, however, disagree slightly with waysider on a particular.
As I've seen it,
the ability to directly "access" or "interface" with God Almighty is miraculous, supernatural.
You may ask whenever you wish. That's really something.
Whether or not you get a response-
and the TYPE of response should you get one-
THAT is entirely up to God Almighty, and all our "manifesting" can't squeeze an answer from God.
That's not the same as "reach into Daddy's cookie jar", of course- which was used generally to say
that God will ALWAYS give you a response. Sometimes He will not. Sometimes He will-but it won't be what you wanted.
Sometimes He will tell you when you didn't ask. (There, we agree completely.)
Can anyone think of any Scrpitural documentations of God giving revelation about someone's "being possessed" that was just "for their learning", and not followed by deliverance? This doctrine ruined many lives and reputations. Inflated countless egos too!
~Cinder
I can't think of one.
I'd be VERY interested if someone can find one-
of course, I reserve the right to read the same passage and conclude someone's engaging in
"private interpretation" to transform its meaning to that one.
what cman said was how it was taught in all PRACTICAL sense.
cman said we were taught we move, THEN God moves.
You said we were taught God moved first.
The wording was
"God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. Now it is YOUR move."
(Long before Yu-gi-oh! ever hit the streets, even.)
Therefore, does God move, then we move?
According to vpw, God's moves were centuries ago, millenia ago, even.
Therefore, for all practical purposes, He's not the one who moves NOW.
He moved a long, long time ago,
with the implication that if we don't move, He won't move, at all.
So, to START the ball in our lifetime, WE must move FIRST,
and once we have moved, THEN God moves.
Not at all what I learned, God was the first or prime mover, because of His move we are able to move You can split hairs between technically or practically but in either case our move was a response to His Move. Time has nothing to do with movement nor does distance, movement is movement period. Those who play chess by mail often take weeks to move, but their move is still in response to the one who moved before them. It matters not how long a time period between between moves there was. Likewise the space between God's move and our response to that move has no bearing on his movement
I would think as Christians that we would rely on scripture to show us what to do, as well as letting Him show us what He is doing. That would have to be coupled with scripture at some point or as we have seen in the past God Told Me to do So and So happens.
What twi did was put it all in a nice little package that we are supposed to function in.
Greatly changing what is thought of the mind of Christ, reducing it to nothing but mind games.
With it's own set of rules outlined in pfal.
It just don't work, because of it's boundless and unlimited freedom.
And not to be a slave to limitations set in pfal, as well as other beliefs that have a stopping point.
Which still stops many, and has sent many back into the dark ages instead of enlightenment.
I would agree that there was a great deal of emphasis placed on us, but that is probably true in most church settings. We are the ones that need to learn to accept what is given, it's not God who is in need of learning. Much the same in school the emphasis is on us learning math or history. The information is there we now need to learn it. The goal of most Christian organizations is to teach each other to be more Christ like, so it is natural the subject would be more about us as we are the deficient party.
That said you are correct in that the package was wrapped a little to tightly as the years went by and it did become dependent on it's own set of rules outlined in PFAL. That is a classic mistake of learning, once someone finds a system that appears to work then it becomes the only way to consider that it works. We forget that there is always a bigger box.
Martindale, in his advanced class repudiated the ptractical application of "reaching into Daddy's cookie jar", saying that we could not expect to get "revelation on demand". However he claimed, not that Wierwille got it wrong, but that we all misunderstood it.
I was taught that God moved first, we believe and act,then God moves again. God was the prime mover not us.
WordWolf:
While what you said was TECHNICALLY true, what cman said was how it was taught in all PRACTICAL sense.
cman said we were taught we move, THEN God moves. You said we were taught God moved first.
The wording was "God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. Now it is YOUR move."
(Long before Yu-gi-oh! ever hit the streets, even.)
Therefore, does God move, then we move?
According to vpw, God's moves were centuries ago, millenia ago, even. Therefore, for all practical purposes, He's not the one who moves NOW.
He moved a long, long time ago, with the implication that if we don't move, He won't move, at all.
So, to START the ball in our lifetime, WE must move FIRST, and once we have moved, THEN God moves.
WhiteDove:
Not at all what I learned, God was the first or prime mover, because of His move we are able to move You can split hairs between technically or practically but in either case our move was a response to His Move. Time has nothing to do with movement nor does distance, movement is movement period. Those who play chess by mail often take weeks to move, but their move is still in response to the one who moved before them. It matters not how long a time period between between moves there was. Likewise the space between God's move and our response to that move has no bearing on his movement
Actually, it was what you were TAUGHT.
"God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. Now it is YOUR move."
That is, God already moved in the first century AD, and NOW, it is YOUR turn to move.
Time is VERY relevant, relative to the person experiencing it.
We all "know" the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
We also know that TECHNICALLY, the Earth is moving, and the sun is stable relative to the Earth,
and the Sun ITSELF is not rising and falling.
However, for all PRACTICAL purposes for everyone except Astronomers and Astronauts,
the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
(We're not discussing the Arctic Circle.)
If the moves in a chess match were interrupted for hundreds of years, and one player came to the
table as "player two" for the first time in his life, and the match "resumed" with his move,
he would certainly see HIS move as "the beginning of a match" that began with the board in a set
position. (Don't think there aren't chess matches that don't begin with the board in a set position...)
According to vpw's rule -and it WAS a rule he said LOTS OF TIMES-
God's move was hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
In YOUR lifetime, the first move is the move YOU perform,
after which God will move (AGAIN, but for all your experience, it is God's "first move" in your life.)
So, a Christian applying vpw's rule would say the first move of the game was HIS OWN move,
and all previous moves were setup, before he ever was born.
"Splitting hairs" to say that he should redefine things so that a God who hasn't acted in the Christian's
lifetime, his father's lifetime, his father's father's lifetime, his father's father's father's lifetime,
and so on,
has acted "first", to me,
to require unnecessary mental gymnastics on the part of the Christian.
He arrived. The conditions were set centuries before. He acted. THEN God was seen to act.
To require him to say otherwise just to legitimize a vpw doctrine is silly.
Martindale, in his advanced class repudiated the ptractical application of "reaching into Daddy's cookie jar", saying that we could not expect to get "revelation on demand". However he claimed, not that Wierwille got it wrong, but that we all misunderstood it.
Figures- he changed plenty of things in "his" classes.
Did he ever claim vpw's classes were wrong, and that's why he changed them?
No, it was always OUR fault whenever anything happened.
vpw never did ANYTHING wrong-it was always all the other Christians.
cg said that, and lcm said that, the 2 Christians most ready to drive off a cliff if vpw required it.
You don't usually find that so much in Christians- that's usually assassin sects that do that.
It goes hand-in-hand with "if you die serving the sect, you will live in paradise."
If the moves in a chess match were interrupted for hundreds of years, and one player came to the
table as "player two" for the first time in his life, and the match "resumed" with his move,
he would certainly see HIS move as "the beginning of a match" that began with the board in a set
position. (Don't think there aren't chess matches that don't begin with the board in a set position...)
No he wouldn't he would see his move as another move in a game in progress due to the fact that there was a previous move on the board which one would note by the fact that the board was not in the start position.
So, a Christian applying vpw's rule would say the first move of the game was HIS OWN move,
and all previous moves were setup, before he ever was born.
Yeah setup............. Please
Nope I would say I responded to His first move.
move /muv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[moov] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, moved, mov·ing, noun
–verb (used without object) 1. to pass from one place or position to another.
2. to go from one place of residence to another: They moved from Tennessee to Texas.
3. to advance or progress: The red racing car moved into the lead.
4. to have a regular motion, as an implement or a machine; turn; revolve.
5. to sell or be sold: That new model is moving well.
6. to start off or leave: It's time to be moving.
7. to transfer a piece in a game, as chess or checkers.
8. (of the bowels) to discharge or eject the feces; evacuate.
9. to be active in a particular sphere: to move in musical society.
10. to take action; proceed.
11. to make a formal request, application, or proposal: to move for a new trial.
–verb (used with object) 12. to change from one place or position to another.
13. to set or keep in motion.
14. to prompt, actuate, or impel to some action: What moved you to do this?
15. to arouse or excite the feelings or passions of; affect with emotion (usually fol. by to): to move someone to anger.
16. to affect with tender or compassionate emotion; touch: The tale of tragedy moved her.
17. to transfer (a piece in a game) from one position to another.
18. to dispose of (goods) by sale.
19. to cause (the bowels) to discharge or eject the feces.
20. to propose formally, as to a court or judge, or for consideration by a deliberative assembly.
21. to submit a formal request or proposal to (a court, a sovereign, etc.).
–noun 22. an act or instance of moving; movement.
23. a change of location or residence.
24. an action toward an objective or goal; step: a move toward a higher tax.
25. (in chess, checkers, etc.) a player's right or turn to make a play.
26. a play or maneuver, as in a game or sport.
—Verb phrases27. move in, to begin to occupy a place in which to live or work.
28. move in on, Informal. a. to approach or make advances toward usurping another's success, authority, position, or the like.
b. to take aggressive steps to control or possess: The company has not yet moved in on the consumer market.
29. move on, to approach or attack as a military target: The army is moving on the capital itself.
30. move out, to leave a place in order to start or continue a planned march, maneuver, journey, etc.: The troops will move out of the encampment at dawn.
31. move over, to change or cause to change to another position, esp. to make room for another: to make space by moving over.
32. move up, to advance to a higher level.
—Idioms33. get a move on, Informal. a. to begin; act: We'd better get a move on before it rains.
b. to hurry; hasten.
34. make one's move, Informal. to act, esp. to assert oneself at an opportune time.
35. on the move, a. busy; active: on the move from morning till night.
b. going from place to place: Infantry units have been on the move all day.
c. advancing; progressing: an industry on the move.
36. put moves on, Slang. to make sexual advances toward. Also, make a move on.
Time has nothing to do with movement a move is a move unless there is some predetermined time frame noted that the movement has to take place in.
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WhiteDove
Thats not what I learned, I was taught that God moved first, we believe and act,then God moves again. God was the prime mover not us.
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cman
You have to know what is available
You have to now how to receive.
You have to know what to do after you got it.
Believing (yours) = receiving.
And then say you have to confess Jesus as Lord to be 'born again'.
Being born again is the work of the spirit continually.
You operate the spirit, NO, the spirit operates in you.
You reach up to 'daddy's cookie jar'.
Yeah, right, fantasizing is what it is and was.
Mind games. Thoughts imagined, not given.
Ask, is what is demanded.
No questions, no answers.
We were given answers that answered questions that were given to us.
And not from the heart of the asker.
A god was formed before our minds in twi.
Did anything happen or change to prove to ourselves that God is real?
Was there any actual contact?
I see George's point from the atheist thread.
The Way stop cold the freedom to explore the spiritual and relied upon someone telling us how God works. And we bought it.
Not trying to be hateful spiteful or deter growth, but to look in other directions.
How many really experienced the presence of God and see him as promised by the what Jesus said?
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WhiteDove
You have to know what is available
You have to now how to receive.
You have to know what to do after you got it.
Believing (yours) = receiving.
Without rehashing the whole believing issue, in the end whatever the mechanics one chooses to get the desired result God is still the one who moves first in that we have something to believe.
And then say you have to confess Jesus as Lord to be 'born again'.
Being born again is the work of the spirit continually.
You operate the spirit, NO, the spirit operates in you.
There is a case for both in scripture
All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
I Corinthians 12:11
1 Corinthians 14:32
and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
You reach up to 'daddy's cookie jar'.
Yeah, right, fantasizing is what it is and was.
Mind games. Thoughts imagined, not given.
Your experience is not the same as others, you cant speak for all by your experience.
Ask, is what is demanded.
No questions, no answers.
To Ask is a request not a demand
We were given answers that answered questions that were given to us.
And not from the heart of the asker.
In some cases and in others not. I could say the same about school.
A god was formed before our minds in twi.
Did anything happen or change to prove to ourselves that God is real?
Was there any actual contact?
I see George's point from the atheist thread.
The Way stop cold the freedom to explore the spiritual and relied upon someone telling us how God works. And we bought it.
Not trying to be hateful spiteful or deter growth, but to look in other directions.
How many really experienced the presence of God and see him as promised by the what Jesus said?
I believe so, then again my experience is not a guarantee for truth for you.
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WordWolf
While what you said was TECHNICALLY true,
what cman said was how it was taught in all PRACTICAL sense.
cman said we were taught we move, THEN God moves.
You said we were taught God moved first.
The wording was
"God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. Now it is YOUR move."
(Long before Yu-gi-oh! ever hit the streets, even.)
Therefore, does God move, then we move?
According to vpw, God's moves were centuries ago, millenia ago, even.
Therefore, for all practical purposes, He's not the one who moves NOW.
He moved a long, long time ago,
with the implication that if we don't move, He won't move, at all.
So, to START the ball in our lifetime, WE must move FIRST,
and once we have moved, THEN God moves.
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cman
Well, I'll pass on a god by 'The Way Int.s book'.
It don't work. Thanks anyway.
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cman
To ask is demanded by God. Not a demand to him.
He even goes beyond what we could ask or think.
So so much for having to know what's available.
Beyond the thinkable, requires another mind at work.
Not ours.
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potato
I find that very little of what God has given me, have I asked for. he gives it because he loves, like I feed my kids meals or do their laundry or give them hugs. I shouldn't wait for them to ask for those things. I'm not constantly looking in the cookie jar to see if God has something for me because I think he'll just give me a cookie when there's one for me.
I know the bible says ask, but I don't understand what it means by ask because my experience is different. my most vivid memory of asking for something was after the new twi biblical family class and how condemning it was to me. I railed on God and asked him why he would want me to give up something wonderful that they were teaching in that class was wrong, and I got an answer. it was one that helped free me from the twi prison. but I didn't ask for anything, just for an answer.
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Outfield
What happened Potato? What did you ask for?
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potato
I fell in love. according to twi's class, it was wrong for me to have a relationship with the man for several reasons... 1. my divorce wasn't final 2. he wasn't in the "household" and 3. sex outside of marriage is wrong. I sat through the class like a good little twit and felt so condemned because to be a good christian, I'd have to give up someone who'd become my best friend, plus it was just an awesome change from 20 years of being humped by my selfish ex-husband to being loved by someone who actually cared about me. so I got ....ed at God, because if these people were teaching his "word" then he was ultimately responsible, and I took my grievance to his feet. I told him all I could see by following that stupid prissy class was a wasteland of loneliness and why should I give up this relationship that made me happy? I got an answer, a loving, freeing one that helped me take my first steps away from twi.
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cman
u got that right potato
another one that kills u have to know what's available
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Sunesis
Beyond the thinkable, requires another mind at work - Cman - awesome profound statement.
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potato
ok, I've given it a little thought.
in the bible God has taken the role of parent (father) over master. so... children don't know what's available. they learn it over years. their parents teach them, they also learn by trial and error, and they ask for a lot when they know the answer is no, just to make sure. parents are supposed to be the example, then the sounding board, as kids grow up and figure out more and more what works for them in their lives, comparing, one would hope, to moral guidelines taught them by their parents (I'm fuzzy on this one because I didn't get that kind of teaching at home). over time, kids check in less and less with their parents about what's ok because they learned to make decisions for themselves. they're autonomous, but their parents' voices are still in their heads for better or worse. still, no one knows or understands everything or knows about everything. even our parents have a couple of decades of experience on us all the time, and they're not even God. so why would God expect us to get it all the time, and expect us to ask before he gives? I don't think we have to know everything that's available for God to give, but once we do know it makes it easier.
I think twi kept us children so we always have to ask and we could never become autonomous.
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cinderpelt
Oops!
What I meant to say was, "WOW! Great insight, all! Thanks for your contributions to my journey toward autonomy!"
~Cinder
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waysider
"Just reach up in Daddy's cookie jar."
Next to "The Law of Believing", this might just be one of the most damaging doctrines taught in TWI.
When God speaks to you, by direct revelation, He is the one that initiates the conversation, not you.(in my opinion)
And it's not always a "small, still voice" nor does it appear at your beck and call, which is really what your doing the reaching amounts to.
People were many times confusing intuition or common sense or even psychological responses to previous experiences as "a small still voice". The latter of the three can be a downright dangerous one to treat as "revelation" because it can have negative under-pinnings, like when someone would say "Oh, I knew by discerning of spirits" that Joe Blow had this spirit or that spirit or that he was a seed boy simply because their mind was reacting to a previous experience that had affected a deep part of their psyche.
Try telling a person who is already suicidal that they are born again of the devil and that you know it's true because you "reached up in Daddy's cookie jar" and he told you. Go ahead and tell them there is no hope they can ever be born-again of God's spirit even though they have a genuine desire to know God. Tell them you know because you "reached up in Daddy's cookie". You had better be DAMN sure you are absolutely correct because your mind wont be able to think of anything else as you share the burden of carrying their casket to the grave. That's what someone in TWI did to one of my best friends except that they didn't feel the weight of the coffin, I did!
You can't just "reach up in daddy's cookie jar" whenever you think you would like a cookie.
If He has a "cookie" to give you, you will get it when He is good and ready to give it to you!
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cinderpelt
Can anyone think of any Scrpitural documentations of God giving revelation about someone's "being possessed" that was just "for their learning", and not followed by deliverance? This doctrine ruined many lives and reputations. Inflated countless egos too!
~Cinder
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cman
See now there it is again White Dove "we" believe and act.
Act on what? What we believe?
What if what we believe is wrong?
And this is certainly not personal to you, my comments.
What if perhaps god and heaven and hell and all this we were taught was 'off', a bit?
Sure we never exactly believed as we were taught, everyone of us had our own take on things.
TWI's teachings were and are separatist type teachings.
Jesus' death and resurrection is for those who believe only.
And who is to say who is a believer or will believe?
God moved first, whether or not anyone believes it, what God did is done.
What is really real and what is not?
In other words, why count on our belief?
When whatever is-is and has been and is to come.
Our believing will not change God.
Just our perspective of who God is.
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WordWolf
1 Kings 19:11-13 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
========
This can be found ONCE in Scripture.
In the Old Testament.
And twi made a big deal about the "still small voice", and a practice and doctrine around it.
How shaky was this premise?
Here's the same verses in the New American Standard, a more consistent English translation.
1 Kings 19:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)
11So He said, "Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD " And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
12After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing.
13When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave And behold, a voice came to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
==========
The NIV?
1 Kings 19:11-13 (New International Version)
11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"
====================
I will, however, disagree slightly with waysider on a particular.
As I've seen it,
the ability to directly "access" or "interface" with God Almighty is miraculous, supernatural.
You may ask whenever you wish. That's really something.
Whether or not you get a response-
and the TYPE of response should you get one-
THAT is entirely up to God Almighty, and all our "manifesting" can't squeeze an answer from God.
That's not the same as "reach into Daddy's cookie jar", of course- which was used generally to say
that God will ALWAYS give you a response. Sometimes He will not. Sometimes He will-but it won't be what you wanted.
Sometimes He will tell you when you didn't ask. (There, we agree completely.)
I can't think of one.
I'd be VERY interested if someone can find one-
of course, I reserve the right to read the same passage and conclude someone's engaging in
"private interpretation" to transform its meaning to that one.
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WhiteDove
Not at all what I learned, God was the first or prime mover, because of His move we are able to move You can split hairs between technically or practically but in either case our move was a response to His Move. Time has nothing to do with movement nor does distance, movement is movement period. Those who play chess by mail often take weeks to move, but their move is still in response to the one who moved before them. It matters not how long a time period between between moves there was. Likewise the space between God's move and our response to that move has no bearing on his movement
.
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cman
This is what I said.
And though it is not the 'all truth'.
The teachings were that God would not act unless we did something first.
Yes they said that God did whatever so we could do.
And how are we to know what to do.
Should we now turn to our own minds and decide.
Or let, let, let more be shown to us.
More that he has already done.
Kind of like a chess game, yes, but a little twist to it.
He wants you to win.
And it was taught that God moved first.
So is it then a guessing game or intellectual reasoning to figure out what we are to do?
Or can God show himself again and we can do as we interpret.
All of this going on within the person with inner and outer layers of sight, sounds, feelings....
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cman
All this about who acts first begins to blend into one.
Cause who is God that acted and who are we that interpret these by the Holy Spirit.
Basically the emphasis was on us and not on God who is in us.
The carnal man with all his reasoning puts one at the door. With a little help.
It's the Spirit that walks in and the 'higher thoughts' are revealed.
Logic and reasoning will only go so far, then it gets overpowered by the Lord.
Else there isn't a Lord.
Bringing down the wisdom of the wise and the empty carcass of a god that is not there.
Into a 'in the Spirit' experience that no book could hold but the heart can.
And not to say that you White Dove or any one else has not had these experiences.
Which are in real truth and reality, unchangeable and unlimited.
Different aspects of the tree are seen, and mistaken for the whole tree usually.
What twi did was put it all in a nice little package that we are supposed to function in.
Greatly changing what is thought of the mind of Christ, reducing it to nothing but mind games.
With it's own set of rules outlined in pfal.
It just don't work, because of it's boundless and unlimited freedom.
And not to be a slave to limitations set in pfal, as well as other beliefs that have a stopping point.
Which still stops many, and has sent many back into the dark ages instead of enlightenment.
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WhiteDove
I would agree that there was a great deal of emphasis placed on us, but that is probably true in most church settings. We are the ones that need to learn to accept what is given, it's not God who is in need of learning. Much the same in school the emphasis is on us learning math or history. The information is there we now need to learn it. The goal of most Christian organizations is to teach each other to be more Christ like, so it is natural the subject would be more about us as we are the deficient party.
That said you are correct in that the package was wrapped a little to tightly as the years went by and it did become dependent on it's own set of rules outlined in PFAL. That is a classic mistake of learning, once someone finds a system that appears to work then it becomes the only way to consider that it works. We forget that there is always a bigger box.
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Oakspear
Martindale, in his advanced class repudiated the ptractical application of "reaching into Daddy's cookie jar", saying that we could not expect to get "revelation on demand". However he claimed, not that Wierwille got it wrong, but that we all misunderstood it.
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WordWolf
WhiteDove:
WordWolf:WhiteDove:
Actually, it was what you were TAUGHT."God has ALREADY moved-in Christ Jesus. Now it is YOUR move."
That is, God already moved in the first century AD, and NOW, it is YOUR turn to move.
Time is VERY relevant, relative to the person experiencing it.
We all "know" the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
We also know that TECHNICALLY, the Earth is moving, and the sun is stable relative to the Earth,
and the Sun ITSELF is not rising and falling.
However, for all PRACTICAL purposes for everyone except Astronomers and Astronauts,
the Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
(We're not discussing the Arctic Circle.)
If the moves in a chess match were interrupted for hundreds of years, and one player came to the
table as "player two" for the first time in his life, and the match "resumed" with his move,
he would certainly see HIS move as "the beginning of a match" that began with the board in a set
position. (Don't think there aren't chess matches that don't begin with the board in a set position...)
According to vpw's rule -and it WAS a rule he said LOTS OF TIMES-
God's move was hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
In YOUR lifetime, the first move is the move YOU perform,
after which God will move (AGAIN, but for all your experience, it is God's "first move" in your life.)
So, a Christian applying vpw's rule would say the first move of the game was HIS OWN move,
and all previous moves were setup, before he ever was born.
"Splitting hairs" to say that he should redefine things so that a God who hasn't acted in the Christian's
lifetime, his father's lifetime, his father's father's lifetime, his father's father's father's lifetime,
and so on,
has acted "first", to me,
to require unnecessary mental gymnastics on the part of the Christian.
He arrived. The conditions were set centuries before. He acted. THEN God was seen to act.
To require him to say otherwise just to legitimize a vpw doctrine is silly.
Figures- he changed plenty of things in "his" classes.
Did he ever claim vpw's classes were wrong, and that's why he changed them?
No, it was always OUR fault whenever anything happened.
vpw never did ANYTHING wrong-it was always all the other Christians.
cg said that, and lcm said that, the 2 Christians most ready to drive off a cliff if vpw required it.
You don't usually find that so much in Christians- that's usually assassin sects that do that.
It goes hand-in-hand with "if you die serving the sect, you will live in paradise."
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WhiteDove
Yeah setup............. Please
Nope I would say I responded to His first move.
move /muv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[moov] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, moved, mov·ing, noun
–verb (used without object) 1. to pass from one place or position to another.
2. to go from one place of residence to another: They moved from Tennessee to Texas.
3. to advance or progress: The red racing car moved into the lead.
4. to have a regular motion, as an implement or a machine; turn; revolve.
5. to sell or be sold: That new model is moving well.
6. to start off or leave: It's time to be moving.
7. to transfer a piece in a game, as chess or checkers.
8. (of the bowels) to discharge or eject the feces; evacuate.
9. to be active in a particular sphere: to move in musical society.
10. to take action; proceed.
11. to make a formal request, application, or proposal: to move for a new trial.
–verb (used with object) 12. to change from one place or position to another.
13. to set or keep in motion.
14. to prompt, actuate, or impel to some action: What moved you to do this?
15. to arouse or excite the feelings or passions of; affect with emotion (usually fol. by to): to move someone to anger.
16. to affect with tender or compassionate emotion; touch: The tale of tragedy moved her.
17. to transfer (a piece in a game) from one position to another.
18. to dispose of (goods) by sale.
19. to cause (the bowels) to discharge or eject the feces.
20. to propose formally, as to a court or judge, or for consideration by a deliberative assembly.
21. to submit a formal request or proposal to (a court, a sovereign, etc.).
–noun 22. an act or instance of moving; movement.
23. a change of location or residence.
24. an action toward an objective or goal; step: a move toward a higher tax.
25. (in chess, checkers, etc.) a player's right or turn to make a play.
26. a play or maneuver, as in a game or sport.
—Verb phrases27. move in, to begin to occupy a place in which to live or work.
28. move in on, Informal. a. to approach or make advances toward usurping another's success, authority, position, or the like.
b. to take aggressive steps to control or possess: The company has not yet moved in on the consumer market.
29. move on, to approach or attack as a military target: The army is moving on the capital itself.
30. move out, to leave a place in order to start or continue a planned march, maneuver, journey, etc.: The troops will move out of the encampment at dawn.
31. move over, to change or cause to change to another position, esp. to make room for another: to make space by moving over.
32. move up, to advance to a higher level.
—Idioms33. get a move on, Informal. a. to begin; act: We'd better get a move on before it rains.
b. to hurry; hasten.
34. make one's move, Informal. to act, esp. to assert oneself at an opportune time.
35. on the move, a. busy; active: on the move from morning till night.
b. going from place to place: Infantry units have been on the move all day.
c. advancing; progressing: an industry on the move.
36. put moves on, Slang. to make sexual advances toward. Also, make a move on.
Time has nothing to do with movement a move is a move unless there is some predetermined time frame noted that the movement has to take place in.
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