A child is not responsible for getting its own needs met. That is the adult's job
A child rarely asks for what it needs? Really? Not my experience. Though sometimes, depending on the age, it might express need with crying.
Sometimes a child doesn't verbalize what it needs, but an adult knows the crankiness is due to needing rest...and long term unmet needs can be of a nature that a child cannot understand...but they will certainly impact the child's life.
Sounds like you have a very low opinion of people! They just don't measure up.
OK, well that is your opinion, everyone has them, I suppose that maybe my pov may offend or incense you, as well. I personally think that you lack in understanding of how God works in people to heal after being victimized and abused. I am at a loss to understand your rancor for the people who were betrayed, used and hurt by people that claimed to be God`s representatives....people who stole, destroyed and even killed in his name??
As far as reading scripture??? What good does THAT do without the love of God in your heart??
As far as I am conerned the obsessive constant reading of the bible....That isn`t how I measure spirituality....some of the most vilely evil people whom I have ever met, were avid bible fans, read it, taught it, wore their studies like a mantle....and yet were using it as a weapon, a tool of punishment to heartlessly destroy the lives of those whom had turned to them as ministers. Scriptural mastery means exactly SQUAT as far as whether you are a man of the spirit or of the flesh .... gosh we all saw that in twi.
Actually, it has been my experience that the bible is more of a means to an end. An introduction to God, firstly, and a history book about how he interacted with a particular peaple during a particular time period secondly.
Once I get that ...understand my responsibility....*Love God and love your neighbor* right??? Well then that *word is replaced with a personal relationship in which God can work in me to will and to do of his good pleasure....shrug
How many times do I need to read the same stuff over and over? It isn`t like I am going to forget what I am supposed to do.
Now sure, I occasionally will re read some scripture, but it is kind of like opening a favorite child hood story book. Something that I enjoy, but certainly not a requirement for my daily walk after nearly 30 years of living it.
So go ahead, read your scriptures, smugly pat yourself on the back as some sort of superior christian that is so much more spiritual than the average greasespotter....far from offending me, or incensing me to anger, or even God forbid helping me, with your rightious finger of judgement pointing, I just feel bad for you personally friend :(
quote: Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again. I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind. Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.
I didn't know too many people who didn't SIT or like to in manifestations, but, yeah, we were a social bunch. In the early 90s twig cordos started saying "this is not a social hour". That worked 'great'; it sent the message that if you want to be "social" you have to go to the unbelievers. Yeah, some people played church, but even believers need bonding time.
It seems the more time went by the more critical leadership became. And now they have their "household of Zion" and it sounds like a pretty lonely place without us "social people" there.
I think some posters just like to rub TWIs face in the fact that the LCM regime that kicked them out of TWI has basically failed. They don't really blame TWI for every problem in their lives, they just say up yours TWI in as many variations as they can think of.
Some of you in the cafe are so vehemently against TWI, it makes me wonder if you even love The Word any more. I asked myself a few months ago, "Self, when was the last time you read the Bible?" and I didn't like the answer. Then, I took inventory of my life and I didn't like the fruit, or lack thereof.
I took and helped run PFAL dozens of times, took the intermediate class at least a half dozen times, advanced class twice, went to advances, taught at fellowship at least a hundred times, set up study nights, read all the books over and over (except rise and expansion, what a snooze that was) and filled dozens of notebooks with study notes... so f-ing what? I don't see all that activity makes anyone more knowledgeable of the Word. all I became knowledgeable of was Way doctrine. I can hate twi and love God. the two are not mutually exclusive.
Without God and His Word, we have nothing. Just empty greif with gnashing of teeth. We've just about lost our country and the freedom to speak Bible to anyone. This is disturbing enough to me that I've made up my mind to speak up.
that's one system of belief. there are others.
I agree that maybe you need to go back to twi. you sound like RC material to me.
As far as I am conerned the obsessive constant reading of the bible....That isn`t how I measure spirituality....some of the most vilely evil people whom I have ever met, were avid bible fans, read it, taught it, wore their studies like a mantle....and yet were using it as a weapon, a tool of punishment to heartlessly destroy the lives of those whom had turned to them as ministers. Scriptural mastery means exactly SQUAT as far as whether you are a man of the spirit or of the flesh .... gosh we all saw that in twi.
amen, rascal. I was married to someone who obsessively read the bible and knew the pfal teaching topics and collaterals by heart. he loved to posture before twi's leadership and show off his ability to "work the word" (read: impress people of authority with his ability to handle twi doctrine). he has very little love in his heart for God or anyone. he used the "word" (read: twi doctrine) to control me, hurt me, and impress other people. the pharisees who Jesus confronted were masters of scripture, but they were men of the flesh. people like that are pretty common in religion, it seems.
in my experience, the more someone says they know spiritual things, especially regarding how things should be done, the less love they have for God.
I didn't know too many people who didn't SIT or like to in manifestations, but, yeah, we were a social bunch. In the early 90s twig cordos started saying "this is not a social hour". That worked 'great'; it sent the message that if you want to be "social" you have to go to the unbelievers. Yeah, some people played church, but even believers need bonding time.
It seems the more time went by the more critical leadership became. And now they have their "household of Zion" and it sounds like a pretty lonely place without us "social people" there.
well... in my time (70's) sometimes I'd have (what I thought was) a great teaching/message ready for twig, and have everything all 'planned out'... and then after all the folks got there I'd just say "c'mon, we're going to the putt putt" or the bowling alley or the ice cream store, etc. And that's what we'd do... I guess I just didn't get it... :( ...cuz on those occasions I'd forget to do stuff like abundant sharing and singing songs... we just 'accidentally' lived life together...
I will qualify the following post by alerting you that it is an observation and an opinion. Some of you will be offended and even incensed to anger
[i will qualify my reply-it's MY observations and opinions. I wasn't emotional, perhaps you will be.
My first observation is the polarizations at the beginning, as if
"You may agree with me, or you can be emotional and offended!"
I disagree with this characterization, and it's not conducive to civil communication.]
Fellowship can be centered around anything. I remember after some of the fellowships, I would listen to what people talked about and by paying attention to it, I would be able to tell what some of the needs were and what was on their heart. It was rarely the Word of God.
[it's nice to hang out with people and not have to "perform". We were far from authority,
but the closer you got to twi's thumb, the more time you spent UNDER it, thus, rare were the moments you
were allowed to be human and not Super-Believer.]
Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again.
[in a few cases, I imagine you didn't know much ABOUT the people you're criticizing.
I was told, years of committed believer-ship into things, that what I consider one of my LEAST logical moments
was the first time someone (someone INTELLIGENT) saw me as "serious."
They misinterpreted my clothing and everything ELSE I ever did.
Perhaps you're doing the same...]
I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind.
[God never required we all memorize verses. JESUS was required, and I have nothing against it.
I did it myself. I still recite verses. (Check my posts.) However, different Christians have different STRENGTHS.
I Corinthians 12: 12-26
" 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it."
The MEANING of those verses shouldn't escape you. Memorizing verses is not THE HEIGHTS
of what we do-if it was, there'd be a verse for it.
Instead, we have verses like I Corinthians 4:2
"Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful."]
Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.
[And the verse saying this was a tragedy is....?]
For some time now something has been eating at me regarding this site.
[Free thought, differences of opinion, basic humanity, and, sometimes, human flaws
can TRAUMATIZE ex-wayfers. Some of us, however, love the FREEDOM.]
Some people in here deserve each other. The victims, the hatemongers and the unbelievers.
[Translation:
"You can agree with me or be a victim, a hatemonger or an unbeliever."
No definitions provided, just pronouncements like lcm used to do.
(May still do them, for all I know.)]
Like John Juedes! Some in here actually consider him as an authority.
[Or, you know, we paid attention and actually AGREED WITH HIM, using our abilities to REASON.
Saying we consider him an "authority" suggests we just accepted what he said was true without
checking it for ourselves.
Sorry, did that in twi, when I was young and foolish. I have no desire to repeat mistakes.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."]
I've listened to his interview and read his spew on believing.
[Translation:
"I didn't like what he said on believing, so it's error and 'spew.'"]
The fact that some people rallied around him as an authority is distasteful to say the least.
[Or we used our REASON and AGREED with him. The idea that thinking people could refute the so-called
"LAW" of Believing is so repugnant to some, apparently, that they have to fog that by mischaracterizing
that process by pretending the OTHERS are the ones that didn't do the thinking.
"Rallied around him", or "agreed and thanked him for saying it" are 2 different things.
We don't need "authorities" here, nor do we WANT any.]
People in here want to blame leadership for their problems. What a crock.
[Rarely were my problems the result of vpw, lcm, or their trained "leaders."
Others, they were, very often, some traumatically.
Claiming it isn't true, that's the "crock".
Claiming it's true of me would likewise be a "crock", since it didn't happen to me.]
I remember the Advanced class '78 that LCM referred to in VP and Me. VPW offered an open session of questions on any topic and somebody got up and asked about 'needs and wants parallel'. It was a great question....to ask before arriving to the Advanced Class.
For the next several years, I took the foundational class several times and each time paid close attention to the topic. I committed myself to researching the words 'needs' and 'wants'. It took a while. A few years before I finally got it. By the time I did, I wasn't in the Corps any more and I had to just enjoy the privilege of knowing. In '84, I went into the 14th Corps. I must have asked about 100 people throughout the year if they understood it or could explain it. NO ONE COULD. That was scary and I had to watch myself to make sure I didn't get egotistical about it.
[And the subject, as presented,
was NEVER CHANGED,
mainly because to correct it would require REMOVING IT.
"Understanding it" meant rationalizing things to match the teaching, but reality failed to conform to it.
That's why almost all of us have discarded it-it doesn't work.
PRETENDING it works isn't quite the same.
RATIONALIZING and HIDING the counter-evidence doesn't change that.
So, you succeeded in coming up with a beautiful, elaborate explanation which still fails to match reality.
Please make sure you don't get "egotistical about it."
While John Juedes was finding out why 'believing' was being taught wrong and while Karl Kahler was documenting the snapping of a of a cult, I was trying to work the material. I'll tell you right now! Believing without God is stupid and I never thought it was part of the routine or doctrine.
[You STILL don't get it. I'll make it simple, since it's been discussed before and been made
very clear by others.
Trusting God- good thing.
This abstract "believing" thing- non-Scriptural.
Applying this abstract "believing" thing to trusting God is MISLABELLING trusting God.]
I knew people who acted like God wasn't needed.
[Having learned that from vpw...]
Some of them are probably in here and lauded to the heavens for their insight of TWI.
[Translation:
"Since I can't name any examples, I shall pretend the posters here have examples of what I'm saying,
and blame them for having non-existent examples and pretend I supported my claim.]
I remember an incident where some guy volunteered to do some job because 'He could do all things through Christ... and VPW told him to stick his elbow in his ear." VP recognized how out to lunch and unqualified the kid was to handle the task and he knew that it would take some experience in the field.
[Making a bs claim vpw didn't like=wrong.
Making a bs claim vpw liked= right.
Making a bs claim and you're vpw=people commit themselves to researching your words until they
"finally get it" and it doesn't look like bs to them.]
Looking at 'Research Geek's" Top Ten List of Doctrinal Errors' I don't see any listed from VPW. All are from LCM. I find that odd.
[That's one list, and an ancient one. We have more comprehensive lists, entirely
composted of vpw stuff.
Want to know why Research Geek's list mostly covers lcm? Ask RG.]
Looking at the list, I can see the twist in the doctrine to the point that it led to more mahem and destruction for TWI. Historically, when a group thinks and teaches that they are so elite, there is a downfall just over the next hill.
[Yeah, "twi was great under vpw, and lousy under lcm." Of course.]
Some of you in the cafe are so vehemently against TWI, it makes me wonder if you even love The Word any more. I asked myself a few months ago, "Self, when was the last time you read the Bible?" and I didn't like the answer. Then, I took inventory of my life and I didn't like the fruit, or lack thereof.
[That's a shame. I still read it, and I'm against twi.
Mind you, some people are no longer Christians, largely because of evils done in God's name
in twi by twi staffers, starting with vpw and lcm. I blame those who did it.]
Without God and His Word, we have nothing. Just empty greif with gnashing of teeth. We've just about lost our country and the freedom to speak Bible to anyone.
[if that was true, you couldn't say this here- but you can even do so, knowing this isn't a Christian messageboard.
However, there's no penalties for using the Bible to state your opinion.
The only caveat is that not everyone will AGREE WITH YOU.
Isn't the First Amendment to the Constitution a nice thing?]
This is disturbing enough to me that I've made up my mind to speak up.
[You've spoken up. Congrats.
Perhaps you will read the replies and consider that what you're thinking on is INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.
You may not know everything you think you know.
(Hint: That's usually true in life.)]
In closing, I'll share with you a key regarding needs and wants parallel. A child rarely has to ask for what it 'needs'. We need to
'want' what God says we 'need'.
[There's still no verses that say God wants us to make our "wants parallel with our needs."
That's a twi doctrine/dogma.
Understanding THAT is key.]
I took and helped run PFAL dozens of times, took the intermediate class at least a half dozen times, advanced class twice, went to advances, taught at fellowship at least a hundred times, set up study nights, read all the books over and over (except rise and expansion, what a snooze that was) and filled dozens of notebooks with study notes... so f-ing what? I don't see all that activity makes anyone more knowledgeable of the Word. all I became knowledgeable of was Way doctrine. I can hate twi and love God. the two are not mutually exclusive.
amen, rascal. I was married to someone who obsessively read the bible and knew the pfal teaching topics and collaterals by heart. he loved to posture before twi's leadership and show off his ability to "work the word" (read: impress people of authority with his ability to handle twi doctrine). he has very little love in his heart for God or anyone. he used the "word" (read: twi doctrine) to control me, hurt me, and impress other people. the pharisees who Jesus confronted were masters of scripture, but they were men of the flesh. people like that are pretty common in religion, it seems.
in my experience, the more someone says they know spiritual things, especially regarding how things should be done, the less love they have for God.
Seems doubly-true at the GSC, for that matter.
"If you meet the mog in the road, kill him!"
(Based on the old saying,
"If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him")
quote: Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again. I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind. Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.
I didn't know too many people who didn't SIT or like to in manifestations, but, yeah, we were a social bunch. In the early 90s twig cordos started saying "this is not a social hour". That worked 'great'; it sent the message that if you want to be "social" you have to go to the unbelievers. Yeah, some people played church, but even believers need bonding time.
It seems the more time went by the more critical leadership became. And now they have their "household of Zion" and it sounds like a pretty lonely place without us "social people" there.
I think some posters just like to rub TWIs face in the fact that the LCM regime that kicked them out of TWI has basically failed. They don't really blame TWI for every problem in their lives, they just say up yours TWI in as many variations as they can think of.
[One of the good things was when we actually HAD FUN. Removing the fun from things is STUPID.
Those who think twi is better without the fun, but with the "retemories" are invited to go back in.
Hey, they currently have "retemories" but no fun-that should be perfect...)]
This "needs and wants" thing is starting to make sense.
See, Dr. W. must have "needed" that fleet of classic cars and motorcycles that he bought with our money as much as he "wanted" them.
Yeah, yeah. That's it. He needed them.
And his "believing" sure must have been big 'cause he sure had some nice ones and plenty of them stashed away where the local "abs"ers wouldn't have to look at them and be distracted from moving The Word.
After a while in Way World, I started asking, what happened to GOD?
When I first got in, no one knew much bible (even after PFAL), but we certainly thought that GOD loved us.
Good things happened to people.
With the emphasis on studying the bible, retemories, etc., ( along with other things that have been shared on this website) it seemed to take the life out of the fellowship, and me
Please do not mis-understand me, folks who study the bible, I have a lot of respect and admiration for them.
As long as they are doing it with GOD in mind, not their egos.
Well yeah Burford, (and welcome to greasespot by the way :) ) agreed. The way it was taught to us in twi.....studying scripture = spiritual big shot, that I think is wrong.
What is scary is that a lot of people still operate under this premiss....the phrase *ever searching, but never coming unto a knowledge of God* comes to mind.
We think that we are born again, we think that we are hot shot christians....because of our time studying.....it`s like you said...an *ego* thing. Yet, the fruit in our lives, in that of our leaders many times is not that of some one who is of the spirit....we don`t manifest the characteristics that Jesus said would identify us to one another.
Do we examine our lives as to why? No, our leaders just came up with excuses of why that isn`t applicable to todays situation....all things being lawfull you know??
I just wonder how many of us will one day be told to *depart for I knew you not* .... :(
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread - I'll go over it in a min to see if I just repeated what someone else said.
I will qualify the following post by alerting you that it is an observation and an opinion. Some of you will be offended and even incensed to anger
I love it when people start things out like this - you always know fun stuff is going to be written right afterwards. XP
Also - maybe you were looking for a different word that qualify? Qualify means something like: meet the criteria or be eligible for? Maybe you wanted to say: "I will begin..."
Or maybe it's a regional thing? (This might be my catchphrase!)
I'm sorry - I am such a nazi when it comes to that stuff. It's not an insult - because I know I mispell "misspell" ^_~ hehe - I'm just as bad. I just hear my husband using words out of context sometimes and it makes it hard for people to understand him.
Anyways - writing nazi off. T_T
Fellowship can be centered around anything. I remember after some of the fellowships, I would listen to what people talked about and by paying attention to it, I would be able to tell what some of the needs were and what was on their heart. It was rarely the Word of God.
I think that we usually got so much of God during fellowship that maybe our needs were actually met?
Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again. I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind. Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.
I certainly didn't want to go to get out of the house. I know my parents didn't either - they wanted the word and fellowship. I also think that measuring someone's love of God - on how well someone can remember a scripture on a piece of white paper - is a really stupid. Everyone has their strength's and weaknesses. Some people could speak in tongues really well, others seemed to have a photographic memory. Some could do it all if they were lucky.
For some time now something has been eating at me regarding this site. Some people in here deserve each other. The victims, the hatemongers and the unbelievers. Like John Juedes! Some in here actually consider him as an authority. I've listened to his interview and read his spew on believing. The fact that some people rallied around him as an authority is distasteful to say the least.
People in here want to blame leadership for their problems. What a crock. I remember the Advanced class '78 that LCM referred to in VP and Me. VPW offered an open session of questions on any topic and somebody got up and asked about 'needs and wants parallel'. It was a great question....to ask before arriving to the Advanced Class.
I don't blame leadership for my problems. I have problems that I have to deal with everyday that has nothing at all to do with twi. I do blame some of them for being total bastards abusing their people.
For the next several years, I took the foundational class several times and each time paid close attention to the topic. I committed myself to researching the words 'needs' and 'wants'. It took a while. A few years before I finally got it. By the time I did, I wasn't in the Corps any more and I had to just enjoy the privilege of knowing. In '84, I went into the 14th Corps. I must have asked about 100 people throughout the year if they understood it or could explain it. NO ONE COULD. That was scary and I had to watch myself to make sure I didn't get egotistical about it.
If you didn't before it sounds like you are now.
While John Juedes was finding out why 'believing' was being taught wrong and while Karl Kahler was documenting the snapping of a of a cult, I was trying to work the material. I'll tell you right now! Believing without God is stupid and I never thought it was part of the routine or doctrine. I knew people who acted like God wasn't needed. Some of them are probably in here and lauded to the heavens for their insight of TWI. I remember an incident where some guy volunteered to do some job because 'He could do all things through Christ... and VPW told him to stick his elbow in his ear." VP recognized how out to lunch and unqualified the kid was to handle the task and he knew that it would take some experience in the field.
What kind words. I respect him more already. OR he could have told him more gently that he didn't know how to do this job... and maybe he could have tried to teach him how.
Some of you in the cafe are so vehemently against TWI, it makes me wonder if you even love The Word any more. I asked myself a few months ago, "Self, when was the last time you read the Bible?" and I didn't like the answer. Then, I took inventory of my life and I didn't like the fruit, or lack thereof.
Do you have to agree with TWI in order for you to love God? How silly. But if you do feel that way - maybe you should go back to TWI like a few others have said. There is no shame in it.
Without God and His Word, we have nothing. Just empty greif with gnashing of teeth. We've just about lost our country and the freedom to speak Bible to anyone. This is disturbing enough to me that I've made up my mind to speak up.
Or you actually feel good for once in your life? And you aren't surrounded by people who just give you empty grief and gnash their teeth at you for their jollies? Being in TWI was like a bad S&M film. I was mostly the M... I guess you were mostly the S. Are you trying to trying to recruit more Ms for when you go back to TWI?
In closing, I'll share with you a key regarding needs and wants parallel. A child rarely has to ask for what it 'needs'. We need to 'want' what God says we 'need'.
Well yeah Burford, (and welcome to greasespot by the way :) ) agreed. The way it was taught to us in twi.....studying scripture = spiritual big shot, that I think is wrong.
What is scary is that a lot of people still operate under this premiss....the phrase *ever searching, but never coming unto a knowledge of God* comes to mind.
We think that we are born again, we think that we are hot shot christians....because of our time studying.....it`s like you said...an *ego* thing. Yet, the fruit in our lives, in that of our leaders many times is not that of some one who is of the spirit....we don`t manifest the characteristics that Jesus said would identify us to one another.
Do we examine our lives as to why? No, our leaders just came up with excuses of why that isn`t applicable to todays situation....all things being lawfull you know??
I just wonder how many of us will one day be told to *depart for I knew you not* .... :(
Rascal, another verse comes to mind. Psalm 119:11 - thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee. Just how does one hide the word in his heart if one doesn't study the bible? Jesus studied the bible; he quoted it 94 times in the 4 gospels. Paul studied the bible; one of his critics accused him of being mad for it. How do you know we "don't manifest" those characteristics? Do you have PIs following us all around?
johnuare, I don't see what rascal posted as indicative that she's opposed to what you posted... she said "in TWI it was taught"... now while I never heard it taught exactly that way in the field... that doesn't mean that it wasn't in her area...
Reading the bible is fine...but I always thought the goal was to do the word and not just study it...thus, we become living epistles.
Don't confuse reading the owner's manual with driving the car...remember, the 1st century Christians didn't have the new testament to read...they simply trusted God and walked by the spirit...it wasn't an academic "thing".
Reading the bible is fine...but I always thought the goal was to do the word and not just study it...thus, we become living epistles.
Don't confuse reading the owner's manual with driving the car...remember, the 1st century Christians didn't have the new testament to read...they simply trusted God and walked by the spirit...it wasn't an academic "thing".
Reading/studying the *word* became the measuring stick by which we gauged ones spirituality, second only to how many people or how much money they brought in.
I personally think that it made us so complacent in our arrogance, that we ignored the fruit that was (according to scripture) the REAL indication given by Jesus to recognise one another.
In some cases, as evidenced by our wicked leaders, I think that bible study took the place of actual living in the spirit.
I didn`t say there was anything wrong with reading scriptures....just that it doesn`t impress me as making one spiritual. I think that our experience with the scholars in twi bears that out.
As far as pi `s following us all around? I don`t understand this statement. The only point that I was making is that if in studying scripture, you are still acting like a man of the flesh, not manifesting fruit of the spirit....then I`d say that you are missing the mark somewhere and all of the study, all of the knowledge aquired, is along the same lines as simply a tinkling cymbal...something that maybe sounds good, but worthless....and worse because one is arrogant because of the knowledge, one might never understand the real heart behind the book :(
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Bramble
???
A child is not responsible for getting its own needs met. That is the adult's job
A child rarely asks for what it needs? Really? Not my experience. Though sometimes, depending on the age, it might express need with crying.
Sometimes a child doesn't verbalize what it needs, but an adult knows the crankiness is due to needing rest...and long term unmet needs can be of a nature that a child cannot understand...but they will certainly impact the child's life.
Sounds like you have a very low opinion of people! They just don't measure up.
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Tom Strange
I'm neither offended nor incensed to anger... it's your opinion...
I just wonder why you're not currently in a TWI fellowship helping people to see the error of their ways?
You obviously have a lot to offer to them... I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms.
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rascal
OK, well that is your opinion, everyone has them, I suppose that maybe my pov may offend or incense you, as well. I personally think that you lack in understanding of how God works in people to heal after being victimized and abused. I am at a loss to understand your rancor for the people who were betrayed, used and hurt by people that claimed to be God`s representatives....people who stole, destroyed and even killed in his name??
As far as reading scripture??? What good does THAT do without the love of God in your heart??
As far as I am conerned the obsessive constant reading of the bible....That isn`t how I measure spirituality....some of the most vilely evil people whom I have ever met, were avid bible fans, read it, taught it, wore their studies like a mantle....and yet were using it as a weapon, a tool of punishment to heartlessly destroy the lives of those whom had turned to them as ministers. Scriptural mastery means exactly SQUAT as far as whether you are a man of the spirit or of the flesh .... gosh we all saw that in twi.
Actually, it has been my experience that the bible is more of a means to an end. An introduction to God, firstly, and a history book about how he interacted with a particular peaple during a particular time period secondly.
Once I get that ...understand my responsibility....*Love God and love your neighbor* right??? Well then that *word is replaced with a personal relationship in which God can work in me to will and to do of his good pleasure....shrug
How many times do I need to read the same stuff over and over? It isn`t like I am going to forget what I am supposed to do.
Now sure, I occasionally will re read some scripture, but it is kind of like opening a favorite child hood story book. Something that I enjoy, but certainly not a requirement for my daily walk after nearly 30 years of living it.
So go ahead, read your scriptures, smugly pat yourself on the back as some sort of superior christian that is so much more spiritual than the average greasespotter....far from offending me, or incensing me to anger, or even God forbid helping me, with your rightious finger of judgement pointing, I just feel bad for you personally friend :(
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johniam
quote: Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again. I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind. Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.
I didn't know too many people who didn't SIT or like to in manifestations, but, yeah, we were a social bunch. In the early 90s twig cordos started saying "this is not a social hour". That worked 'great'; it sent the message that if you want to be "social" you have to go to the unbelievers. Yeah, some people played church, but even believers need bonding time.
It seems the more time went by the more critical leadership became. And now they have their "household of Zion" and it sounds like a pretty lonely place without us "social people" there.
I think some posters just like to rub TWIs face in the fact that the LCM regime that kicked them out of TWI has basically failed. They don't really blame TWI for every problem in their lives, they just say up yours TWI in as many variations as they can think of.
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potato
I took and helped run PFAL dozens of times, took the intermediate class at least a half dozen times, advanced class twice, went to advances, taught at fellowship at least a hundred times, set up study nights, read all the books over and over (except rise and expansion, what a snooze that was) and filled dozens of notebooks with study notes... so f-ing what? I don't see all that activity makes anyone more knowledgeable of the Word. all I became knowledgeable of was Way doctrine. I can hate twi and love God. the two are not mutually exclusive.
that's one system of belief. there are others.
I agree that maybe you need to go back to twi. you sound like RC material to me.
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potato
amen, rascal. I was married to someone who obsessively read the bible and knew the pfal teaching topics and collaterals by heart. he loved to posture before twi's leadership and show off his ability to "work the word" (read: impress people of authority with his ability to handle twi doctrine). he has very little love in his heart for God or anyone. he used the "word" (read: twi doctrine) to control me, hurt me, and impress other people. the pharisees who Jesus confronted were masters of scripture, but they were men of the flesh. people like that are pretty common in religion, it seems.
in my experience, the more someone says they know spiritual things, especially regarding how things should be done, the less love they have for God.
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Outfield
I don't understand what is so confusing about Needs and Wants Parrallel.
If there is a need and you want something then it's available. I'm sure you all know the "red curtain" story.
The lady wanted red drapes and needed a furnished apartment.
I could want a new car and write specifics down and need a new car because my car is unreliable.
I could want a new house and need a new house because the neighborhood is going down, rent is being raised, etc.
It's not that complicated.
As for reading the Word or not, yes, it's spiritual food but I concur with the other folks on here that you too come off judgemental.
It's God who only judges and it's only God that knows each of our hearts.
I'm a little confused by your whole ramble....no offense. But it's like you're trying to catapult over a mouse turd.
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Tom Strange
well... in my time (70's) sometimes I'd have (what I thought was) a great teaching/message ready for twig, and have everything all 'planned out'... and then after all the folks got there I'd just say "c'mon, we're going to the putt putt" or the bowling alley or the ice cream store, etc. And that's what we'd do... I guess I just didn't get it... :( ...cuz on those occasions I'd forget to do stuff like abundant sharing and singing songs... we just 'accidentally' lived life together...
(and yes, sometimes we did have snow cones)
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George Aar
YID, meet Mike,
Mike, YID
There ya go!
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Tom Strange
...can't say I wasn't thinking the same thing Geo ...it just struck me that they probably were already 'fast friends'!
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WordWolf
[WordWolf again.]
Nicely put.
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WordWolf
Seems doubly-true at the GSC, for that matter.
"If you meet the mog in the road, kill him!"
(Based on the old saying,
"If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him")
[One of the good things was when we actually HAD FUN. Removing the fun from things is STUPID.
Those who think twi is better without the fun, but with the "retemories" are invited to go back in.
Hey, they currently have "retemories" but no fun-that should be perfect...)]
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waysider
Hey!!
This "needs and wants" thing is starting to make sense.
See, Dr. W. must have "needed" that fleet of classic cars and motorcycles that he bought with our money as much as he "wanted" them.
Yeah, yeah. That's it. He needed them.
And his "believing" sure must have been big 'cause he sure had some nice ones and plenty of them stashed away where the local "abs"ers wouldn't have to look at them and be distracted from moving The Word.
Yup. It's all starting to come together now.
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potato
ooo, I didn't know about this. why is it that cult leaders seem to have a penchant for expensive vehicles?
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WordWolf
They have different NEEDS.
We know that because that's what he GOT,
and if the "LAW" of Believing is really a "LAW",
then he could ONLY have gotten them by operating it.
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BURFORD
Rascal and Potato
Good Posts!
Those are interesting observations
After a while in Way World, I started asking, what happened to GOD?
When I first got in, no one knew much bible (even after PFAL), but we certainly thought that GOD loved us.
Good things happened to people.
With the emphasis on studying the bible, retemories, etc., ( along with other things that have been shared on this website) it seemed to take the life out of the fellowship, and me
Please do not mis-understand me, folks who study the bible, I have a lot of respect and admiration for them.
As long as they are doing it with GOD in mind, not their egos.
Anyway, my two cents
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rascal
Well yeah Burford, (and welcome to greasespot by the way :) ) agreed. The way it was taught to us in twi.....studying scripture = spiritual big shot, that I think is wrong.
What is scary is that a lot of people still operate under this premiss....the phrase *ever searching, but never coming unto a knowledge of God* comes to mind.
We think that we are born again, we think that we are hot shot christians....because of our time studying.....it`s like you said...an *ego* thing. Yet, the fruit in our lives, in that of our leaders many times is not that of some one who is of the spirit....we don`t manifest the characteristics that Jesus said would identify us to one another.
Do we examine our lives as to why? No, our leaders just came up with excuses of why that isn`t applicable to todays situation....all things being lawfull you know??
I just wonder how many of us will one day be told to *depart for I knew you not* .... :(
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Nero
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread - I'll go over it in a min to see if I just repeated what someone else said.
I will qualify the following post by alerting you that it is an observation and an opinion. Some of you will be offended and even incensed to anger
I love it when people start things out like this - you always know fun stuff is going to be written right afterwards. XP
Also - maybe you were looking for a different word that qualify? Qualify means something like: meet the criteria or be eligible for? Maybe you wanted to say: "I will begin..."
Or maybe it's a regional thing? (This might be my catchphrase!)
I'm sorry - I am such a nazi when it comes to that stuff. It's not an insult - because I know I mispell "misspell" ^_~ hehe - I'm just as bad. I just hear my husband using words out of context sometimes and it makes it hard for people to understand him.
Anyways - writing nazi off. T_T
Fellowship can be centered around anything. I remember after some of the fellowships, I would listen to what people talked about and by paying attention to it, I would be able to tell what some of the needs were and what was on their heart. It was rarely the Word of God.
I think that we usually got so much of God during fellowship that maybe our needs were actually met?
Some people came to fellowship just to get out of the house. Yeah, the leadership screwed up but good gravy! I think of what was going on in the trenches. It makes me wonder if some people ever really got born again. I personally saw some people that had been around for years and only knew the first three or four verses of the white retemories, and that was stretching their mind. Evidence was present that the last time they spoke in tongues was in the 12th session of the first class they took.
I certainly didn't want to go to get out of the house. I know my parents didn't either - they wanted the word and fellowship. I also think that measuring someone's love of God - on how well someone can remember a scripture on a piece of white paper - is a really stupid. Everyone has their strength's and weaknesses. Some people could speak in tongues really well, others seemed to have a photographic memory. Some could do it all if they were lucky.
For some time now something has been eating at me regarding this site. Some people in here deserve each other. The victims, the hatemongers and the unbelievers. Like John Juedes! Some in here actually consider him as an authority. I've listened to his interview and read his spew on believing. The fact that some people rallied around him as an authority is distasteful to say the least.
People in here want to blame leadership for their problems. What a crock. I remember the Advanced class '78 that LCM referred to in VP and Me. VPW offered an open session of questions on any topic and somebody got up and asked about 'needs and wants parallel'. It was a great question....to ask before arriving to the Advanced Class.
I don't blame leadership for my problems. I have problems that I have to deal with everyday that has nothing at all to do with twi. I do blame some of them for being total bastards abusing their people.
For the next several years, I took the foundational class several times and each time paid close attention to the topic. I committed myself to researching the words 'needs' and 'wants'. It took a while. A few years before I finally got it. By the time I did, I wasn't in the Corps any more and I had to just enjoy the privilege of knowing. In '84, I went into the 14th Corps. I must have asked about 100 people throughout the year if they understood it or could explain it. NO ONE COULD. That was scary and I had to watch myself to make sure I didn't get egotistical about it.
If you didn't before it sounds like you are now.
While John Juedes was finding out why 'believing' was being taught wrong and while Karl Kahler was documenting the snapping of a of a cult, I was trying to work the material. I'll tell you right now! Believing without God is stupid and I never thought it was part of the routine or doctrine. I knew people who acted like God wasn't needed. Some of them are probably in here and lauded to the heavens for their insight of TWI. I remember an incident where some guy volunteered to do some job because 'He could do all things through Christ... and VPW told him to stick his elbow in his ear." VP recognized how out to lunch and unqualified the kid was to handle the task and he knew that it would take some experience in the field.
What kind words. I respect him more already.
OR he could have told him more gently that he didn't know how to do this job... and maybe he could have tried to teach him how.
Some of you in the cafe are so vehemently against TWI, it makes me wonder if you even love The Word any more. I asked myself a few months ago, "Self, when was the last time you read the Bible?" and I didn't like the answer. Then, I took inventory of my life and I didn't like the fruit, or lack thereof.
Do you have to agree with TWI in order for you to love God? How silly. But if you do feel that way - maybe you should go back to TWI like a few others have said. There is no shame in it.
Without God and His Word, we have nothing. Just empty greif with gnashing of teeth. We've just about lost our country and the freedom to speak Bible to anyone. This is disturbing enough to me that I've made up my mind to speak up.
Or you actually feel good for once in your life? And you aren't surrounded by people who just give you empty grief and gnash their teeth at you for their jollies? Being in TWI was like a bad S&M film. I was mostly the M... I guess you were mostly the S. Are you trying to trying to recruit more Ms for when you go back to TWI?
In closing, I'll share with you a key regarding needs and wants parallel. A child rarely has to ask for what it 'needs'. We need to 'want' what God says we 'need'.
We need to want what YID says God says we need.
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johniam
Rascal, another verse comes to mind. Psalm 119:11 - thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee. Just how does one hide the word in his heart if one doesn't study the bible? Jesus studied the bible; he quoted it 94 times in the 4 gospels. Paul studied the bible; one of his critics accused him of being mad for it. How do you know we "don't manifest" those characteristics? Do you have PIs following us all around?
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Tom Strange
johnuare, I don't see what rascal posted as indicative that she's opposed to what you posted... she said "in TWI it was taught"... now while I never heard it taught exactly that way in the field... that doesn't mean that it wasn't in her area...
Now in residence, that was another matter...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Reading the bible is fine...but I always thought the goal was to do the word and not just study it...thus, we become living epistles.
Don't confuse reading the owner's manual with driving the car...remember, the 1st century Christians didn't have the new testament to read...they simply trusted God and walked by the spirit...it wasn't an academic "thing".
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Tom Strange
Hey! ...if the KJV was good enough for them...
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rascal
Exactly Guys.
Reading/studying the *word* became the measuring stick by which we gauged ones spirituality, second only to how many people or how much money they brought in.
I personally think that it made us so complacent in our arrogance, that we ignored the fruit that was (according to scripture) the REAL indication given by Jesus to recognise one another.
In some cases, as evidenced by our wicked leaders, I think that bible study took the place of actual living in the spirit.
I didn`t say there was anything wrong with reading scriptures....just that it doesn`t impress me as making one spiritual. I think that our experience with the scholars in twi bears that out.
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rascal
As far as pi `s following us all around? I don`t understand this statement. The only point that I was making is that if in studying scripture, you are still acting like a man of the flesh, not manifesting fruit of the spirit....then I`d say that you are missing the mark somewhere and all of the study, all of the knowledge aquired, is along the same lines as simply a tinkling cymbal...something that maybe sounds good, but worthless....and worse because one is arrogant because of the knowledge, one might never understand the real heart behind the book :(
Love God and Love your neighbor.
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