I just wanted to add that there were people who came into the FLO program who had been students in classes Garry ran and were inspired to reach for greater heights as a direct result of the example he set.
hi twinky!!!..............what a wonderful post!!!..............poignant and eloquent .....imho.........thanks for posting it!!...............and thanks to all you other posters on this thread for equally poignant and eloquent posts laying bare the twisted, unnecessarily mean-spirited, emotionally cruel, and worthless "spiritual" training programs offered by twi!!............the records speak for themselves...........and every one is factual and true!!........thankfully, those of us who experienced these twi training programs, in our innocent desire to become "the best ministrers for god", learned one thing for sure...............ministerial training........WHAT IT IS NOT!!!.........................peace.
Stuff happens. This is a broken world. How cruel to use a tragedy to emotionally flagellate God's children. I bet no one in that Corps ever left grounds without permission again, or did anything else much without permission again.
This incident sounds like the forerunner to the LCM doctrine that disobedience leads to death. When we were very first at Rome City, there were WC cleaning up after the Rock, and the story I heard was that this woman was exhausted from long, hard days at work. She and her husband agreed that she could go home (apparently she lived in the area) and take a nap. On the way, she felt somewhat better and decided to do a bit of shopping. She was involved in a motor vehicle accident that was her fault and one of the people in the other vehicle was killed. This was, according to the MOGFART, because she disobeyed her husband. She was castigated up one side and down the other. Wives were commanded to render unto their husbands absolute, instantaneous and unquestioning obedience. Everyone must obey their leadership immediately.
Another incident that had occurred, I believe, in the spring of 1993, was that unfortunate young woman who died in childbirth. He had a hissy about her disobeying her doctors or something.
Then there was the LCM statement that drove any regrets I might have had about leaving TWI right out the window:
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership."
Uh-huh. Tell Peter and the other apostles that as they stand before the Sanhedrin.
Wives were commanded to render unto their husbands absolute, instantaneous and unquestioning obedience. Everyone must obey their leadership immediately.
And no one considered the consequences of obeying a husband/mog that had little or no moral center.
If he was a mean, beligerent drunk...if he slept with every twigger he could... if he beat the wife or kids... if he made decisions that endangered or drove the family into a financial hole - well, he was still the mini-mog for that family.
This was manipulation at its finest. Nobody wants to die as a result of their disobedience to God's man for this day and for this time and for this hour, and then sooner or later depending on your theology, face God and maybe lose their salvation and be sent to he11 for all eternity. At the least, Jesus Christ Himself would be screaming in your face, spewing saliva on your glasses, and according to LCM, it would be much worse than a "face melting" from the Forehead.
When we left, I knew I would die quickly; the minimog of our city said so. But goodness gracious, here I am today, alive and well, healthy and happy, in a nice house with a wonderful husband and a fantastic grandchild.
Gee whiz, wonder if LCM et al could have been WRONG?
The obedience of wives to their husbands was a very big deal to LCM. And the sad thing is, it fostered a kind of false submission, at least in me. I clearly remember being told by K***y R***o, "You are to line up your thinking with that of your husband, so that you are always, without exception, totally, absolutely, completely likeminded with him." I remember DM teaching in the class that replaced CF&S (Princiiples of a Believers' Family or something), that a wife should not have very many opinions, but must listen to her husband and learn what his opinion is, so that is her opinion also. She gave me the impression that the wife is to slave herself to death without appreciation or reward. "She bleeds out her life for that home, for that man, for those children." Sounds like fun. Nice attitude.
I've been taking a class called "A Woman After God's Own Heart" by Elizabeth George. She describes marriage in entirely different terms than TWI, and makes it a blessing rather than a burden.
For years I had been saying through smiling lips and gritted teeth "Yes dear of course dear" when what my husband wanted was honest discourse. I refused to have an opinion, much less state an opinion. I have learned that this is not a godly teaching at all and that marriage is a partnership and not a master-slave relationship.
I also distinctly remember someone (a woman WC grad at a women's advance) teaching that the Word in I Peter 3:6 where it says that Sara called Abraham "Lord" is the word "Adonai" which means God. Remember God spoke to Abraham, Abraham spoke to Sarah; Sarah spoke to Abraham, then Abraham went to God FOR BOTH OF THEM? How demeaning; God doesn't want to talk to me, just my husband.
Well it's not Adonai, it's a different word, I looked it up in a Young's Concordance, and it's translated "sir, master" essentially a term of respect where she was showing him respect, not worship, not a God-substitute.
No wonder so many WC and other marriages failed with this kind of organized fertilizer being spread around the cornfields!
And no one considered the consequences of obeying a husband/mog that had little or no moral center.
If he was a mean, beligerent drunk...if he slept with every twigger he could... if he beat the wife or kids... if he made decisions that endangered or drove the family into a financial hole - well, he was still the mini-mog for that family.
That is a custom-made enabler, IMHO.
The web got very tangled, to say the least.
I remember being told "he's the driver. if he wants to crash the car, that's his decision, not yours. he's going to make mistakes, but he's the head and it's his responsibility to drive."
so I had to sit by and watch him crash our lives over and over, and I had to work my arse off to clean things up every time and cover for him so he would look good to the "household".
The obedience of wives to their husbands was a very big deal to LCM. And the sad thing is, it fostered a kind of false submission, at least in me. I clearly remember being told by K***y R***o, "You are to line up your thinking with that of your husband, so that you are always, without exception, totally, absolutely, completely likeminded with him." I remember DM teaching in the class that replaced CF&S (Princiiples of a Believers' Family or something), that a wife should not have very many opinions, but must listen to her husband and learn what his opinion is, so that is her opinion also. She gave me the impression that the wife is to slave herself to death without appreciation or reward. "She bleeds out her life for that home, for that man, for those children." Sounds like fun. Nice attitude.
I remember that stuff, too. I remember couple's advances where I was told I should stay up late, after working all day and hosting fellowship, and make sure my home was spotless so my husband wouldn't be distracted when he got up the next day by any dirt or anything out of order or God forbid *gasp* a dirty dish in the sink. because, as the keeper of the home, somehow I became responsible for his mental health, an idea he exploited for many years. it even ended up being my fault when he couldn't get a decent night's sleep because I was up taking care of a restless toddler.
I just think it is very strange thing that God's instructions to men and women got so warped in TWI. I never saw anyone coming down on the men like they did the women, even pre-LCM I even knew of a couple who were having serious marital problems, and the branch leader who counselled them told me (SO MUCH FOR THE LOCKBOX) that the husband had been beating the wife, and then ordered her out of "his" home. He told me the only reason it was okay for her to leave him, in spite of his drunken rages that resulted in her physical harm, was that he had ordered her to get out. Otherwise, he informed me, she would have been required to stay and be abused.
What utter hogwash! And TWI thought they knew more about God than anyone since the death of St. Paul? That is absolutely wrong and immoral and everything else negative you can think of.
Let me just add that I have been married for 30 years to the finest man I've ever met, who endeavors daily to embody the life Christ came to gave us. He is the soul of compassion, kindness and patience. I'm so thank that I never had to endure what others have in their marriages. I grieve for those who have and pray that God has comforted your hearts.
you know, that lockbox stuff was bull$h!t. things people confessed or discussed in a supposedly confidential setting (i.e. "counseling") could be used AT ANY TIME BY LEADERSHIP TO SOW DISCORD. best tool they had to divide and conquer was backbiting and I saw it used a lot. since leaving, people have shared other things with me that raise my level of disgust even further, including selectively broadcasting how much ABS people were giving to get people to spy on each other.
Wives (and females generally) were expected to obey (submit to) their husbands (or other male leadership). Some might remember DM's "The Joy of Followship" extolling what a pleasure it is to serve one's husband (fat lot of good that did her).
We were taught this:
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(And wives were not just subject to their own husbands, but to the "coordinators" and leadership who told the husband what to do and interfered with so many marriages and condoned so much violence and abuse.) (Hang on a minute while they give the scriptures another "twist".)
But this bit was never taught, not in any real practical sense:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Nourish and cherish? By beating up your wife? How many of these abusers beat themselves up?
Twisted scriptures? Wrung to death, more like.
Colossians 3:18-19
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
But then, a husband could hardly model himself on the sacrifice made by JC since we were basically taught to ignore JC and not read the gospels and consider the magnificent sacrifice that he did make for the Church. Was JC bitter against the church in spite of all the disobedience and rejection?
It is just so healing to learn the truth. Remember how PFAL was supposed to teach us to "separate truth from error." I strongly suggest that learning to separate truth from error involves learning something to overcome the error we were taught back then.
What a manipulating bunch of BS! The lockbox was only "locked" when it suited the needs of some self-proclaimed MOG wanting you to cover his arse. Words like "integrity" and "honesty" were thrown around like beads at a Mardi Gras parade. They were part of the lie and the manipulation.
I once found myself in a situation where I had to decide if keeping a confidence was going to further enable a dog...errr... mog in his predatation of women. It went against everything in me to speak up. I hesitated. I tried not to speak. I tried to leave room for my error.
I spoke up, but I did it the wrong way. I should have spoken plainly and loudly. In the end, I was wrong - because I didn't say what I saw and just move on.
But the dog... mog (I keep mixing it up) - he used information to keep himself insulated. He played people against each other. And to this day people think he's wonderful.
Go figure...
*spit*
It has caused me to consider that when someone asks me to keep a confidence, I should first make sure they understand that promise is made on one condition only....If I find that the information I hold allows someone to be hurt as long as it is hidden, all bets are off.
Stuff happens. This is a broken world. How cruel to use a tragedy to emotionally flagellate God's children. I bet no one in that Corps ever left grounds without permission again, or did anything else much without permission again.
This incident sounds like the forerunner to the LCM doctrine that disobedience leads to death.......
<snip>
It all boiled down to this: "Obey or die."
WG
Yeah.......Wierwille was THE prototype of the LCM doctrine and THAT is the dirty little secret that hq works very hard to stifle. Sure, make LCM the "fall guy" and tell all the folks that "he led twi astray and far away from pfal." Yet, when twi's history is OPENED..........it was WIERWILLE who "founded" the false doctrines, the death manipulation, the twisted mog-doctrine, the fear/believing cornerstone, the "just write the teacher" facade (cough, cough).
IMO........Cgeer ALSO wrote his idolatrous paper, The Passing of a Patriarch, to FURTHER cover up the sins of wierwille, using strong intimidation tactics to squelch any and all questions. Patriarch???.......using old testament terminology for "God's man who brought the First Century truth and revelations into the Twentieth Century????"
Just talking outta both sides of his mouth.........to distract and confuse. Sure don't want twi followers to step back and put the pieces of the wierwille/pyramid/scam together. Besides, ole geer would have alot to lose.......since he idolized the guy and wanted to start a wierwille-franchise that continues to this day.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
20
17
12
16
Popular Days
Nov 6
26
Oct 28
20
Nov 5
17
Nov 1
14
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 20 posts
Watered Garden 17 posts
rhino 12 posts
doojable 16 posts
Popular Days
Nov 6 2007
26 posts
Oct 28 2007
20 posts
Nov 5 2007
17 posts
Nov 1 2007
14 posts
Danny
The accident was 75 I believe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
I actually liked familia on the days we had cream of wheat; it helped add some substance to the cream of wheat.
Edited by NottawayferLink to comment
Share on other sites
Priscilla
Actually, the young man who died was Garry Donhoff.
He was a good friend of mine, and a sweet , honest believer.
He got in the word in Mill Valley with Jim Doop.
Garry's life did bless many people, and it was a sad day when he was killed.
A few of us from Mill Valley, along with D*l D*ncan met his parents at the airport when they came back from Ohio with his ashes.
What a sad time.
I believe it was 1975, but my memory is a bit shakey on dates.
Anyway,just wanted to clear that up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
john & his then wife was dismissed.
the twisted part was they were blamed for it.
they were taking the cleanse.
went for food and got in the accident
just like the rest vp missed it also
the top missed the revelation if there is such thing just like the rest
very easy just blame everyone else.
bla bla bla
Every time something lie that happened
HOW DID YOU MISS IT
I taught ministers were given for the perfecting of the saints?
Just blame everyone else
i know lots more about the incident but don't think i'm free to talk about others that
i haven't asked.
Edited by DannyLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yes, it was he.
Don't know where I got the Chuck part from but I got the D. correct! (1 out of 26 ain't so bad!)
Thanks, Priscilla, my memory isn't all that great anymore either.
('course it was never all that good to start with.)
Garry really was one of THE GOOD GUYS.
Wierwille was an opportunist.
To use this tragedy to further his own agenda speaks volumes about his motivation. IMO.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Danny
he was and it was evil.
pass the blame
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I just wanted to add that there were people who came into the FLO program who had been students in classes Garry ran and were inspired to reach for greater heights as a direct result of the example he set.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I think that this incident is a good example of how mean spirited and manipulative Wierwiile was.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
DontWorryBeHappy
hi twinky!!!..............what a wonderful post!!!..............poignant and eloquent .....imho.........thanks for posting it!!...............and thanks to all you other posters on this thread for equally poignant and eloquent posts laying bare the twisted, unnecessarily mean-spirited, emotionally cruel, and worthless "spiritual" training programs offered by twi!!............the records speak for themselves...........and every one is factual and true!!........thankfully, those of us who experienced these twi training programs, in our innocent desire to become "the best ministrers for god", learned one thing for sure...............ministerial training........WHAT IT IS NOT!!!.........................peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Stuff happens. This is a broken world. How cruel to use a tragedy to emotionally flagellate God's children. I bet no one in that Corps ever left grounds without permission again, or did anything else much without permission again.
This incident sounds like the forerunner to the LCM doctrine that disobedience leads to death. When we were very first at Rome City, there were WC cleaning up after the Rock, and the story I heard was that this woman was exhausted from long, hard days at work. She and her husband agreed that she could go home (apparently she lived in the area) and take a nap. On the way, she felt somewhat better and decided to do a bit of shopping. She was involved in a motor vehicle accident that was her fault and one of the people in the other vehicle was killed. This was, according to the MOGFART, because she disobeyed her husband. She was castigated up one side and down the other. Wives were commanded to render unto their husbands absolute, instantaneous and unquestioning obedience. Everyone must obey their leadership immediately.
Another incident that had occurred, I believe, in the spring of 1993, was that unfortunate young woman who died in childbirth. He had a hissy about her disobeying her doctors or something.
Then there was the LCM statement that drove any regrets I might have had about leaving TWI right out the window:
"It is impossible to obey God without first obeying your leadership."
Uh-huh. Tell Peter and the other apostles that as they stand before the Sanhedrin.
It all boiled down to this: "Obey or die."
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I remember *obey or die* :( It is what kept me in line for so many years.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
And no one considered the consequences of obeying a husband/mog that had little or no moral center.
If he was a mean, beligerent drunk...if he slept with every twigger he could... if he beat the wife or kids... if he made decisions that endangered or drove the family into a financial hole - well, he was still the mini-mog for that family.
That is a custom-made enabler, IMHO.
The web got very tangled, to say the least.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
AMEN Dooj!! Thing is the mindset continued for many years after leaving as well :(
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
This was manipulation at its finest. Nobody wants to die as a result of their disobedience to God's man for this day and for this time and for this hour, and then sooner or later depending on your theology, face God and maybe lose their salvation and be sent to he11 for all eternity. At the least, Jesus Christ Himself would be screaming in your face, spewing saliva on your glasses, and according to LCM, it would be much worse than a "face melting" from the Forehead.
When we left, I knew I would die quickly; the minimog of our city said so. But goodness gracious, here I am today, alive and well, healthy and happy, in a nice house with a wonderful husband and a fantastic grandchild.
Gee whiz, wonder if LCM et al could have been WRONG?
WG
Edited by Watered GardenLink to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
The obedience of wives to their husbands was a very big deal to LCM. And the sad thing is, it fostered a kind of false submission, at least in me. I clearly remember being told by K***y R***o, "You are to line up your thinking with that of your husband, so that you are always, without exception, totally, absolutely, completely likeminded with him." I remember DM teaching in the class that replaced CF&S (Princiiples of a Believers' Family or something), that a wife should not have very many opinions, but must listen to her husband and learn what his opinion is, so that is her opinion also. She gave me the impression that the wife is to slave herself to death without appreciation or reward. "She bleeds out her life for that home, for that man, for those children." Sounds like fun. Nice attitude.
I've been taking a class called "A Woman After God's Own Heart" by Elizabeth George. She describes marriage in entirely different terms than TWI, and makes it a blessing rather than a burden.
For years I had been saying through smiling lips and gritted teeth "Yes dear of course dear" when what my husband wanted was honest discourse. I refused to have an opinion, much less state an opinion. I have learned that this is not a godly teaching at all and that marriage is a partnership and not a master-slave relationship.
I also distinctly remember someone (a woman WC grad at a women's advance) teaching that the Word in I Peter 3:6 where it says that Sara called Abraham "Lord" is the word "Adonai" which means God. Remember God spoke to Abraham, Abraham spoke to Sarah; Sarah spoke to Abraham, then Abraham went to God FOR BOTH OF THEM? How demeaning; God doesn't want to talk to me, just my husband.
Well it's not Adonai, it's a different word, I looked it up in a Young's Concordance, and it's translated "sir, master" essentially a term of respect where she was showing him respect, not worship, not a God-substitute.
No wonder so many WC and other marriages failed with this kind of organized fertilizer being spread around the cornfields!
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
I remember being told "he's the driver. if he wants to crash the car, that's his decision, not yours. he's going to make mistakes, but he's the head and it's his responsibility to drive."
so I had to sit by and watch him crash our lives over and over, and I had to work my arse off to clean things up every time and cover for him so he would look good to the "household".
I remember that stuff, too. I remember couple's advances where I was told I should stay up late, after working all day and hosting fellowship, and make sure my home was spotless so my husband wouldn't be distracted when he got up the next day by any dirt or anything out of order or God forbid *gasp* a dirty dish in the sink. because, as the keeper of the home, somehow I became responsible for his mental health, an idea he exploited for many years. it even ended up being my fault when he couldn't get a decent night's sleep because I was up taking care of a restless toddler.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
I just think it is very strange thing that God's instructions to men and women got so warped in TWI. I never saw anyone coming down on the men like they did the women, even pre-LCM I even knew of a couple who were having serious marital problems, and the branch leader who counselled them told me (SO MUCH FOR THE LOCKBOX) that the husband had been beating the wife, and then ordered her out of "his" home. He told me the only reason it was okay for her to leave him, in spite of his drunken rages that resulted in her physical harm, was that he had ordered her to get out. Otherwise, he informed me, she would have been required to stay and be abused.
What utter hogwash! And TWI thought they knew more about God than anyone since the death of St. Paul? That is absolutely wrong and immoral and everything else negative you can think of.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Let me just add that I have been married for 30 years to the finest man I've ever met, who endeavors daily to embody the life Christ came to gave us. He is the soul of compassion, kindness and patience. I'm so thank that I never had to endure what others have in their marriages. I grieve for those who have and pray that God has comforted your hearts.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
you know, that lockbox stuff was bull$h!t. things people confessed or discussed in a supposedly confidential setting (i.e. "counseling") could be used AT ANY TIME BY LEADERSHIP TO SOW DISCORD. best tool they had to divide and conquer was backbiting and I saw it used a lot. since leaving, people have shared other things with me that raise my level of disgust even further, including selectively broadcasting how much ABS people were giving to get people to spy on each other.
Edited by potatoLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Wives (and females generally) were expected to obey (submit to) their husbands (or other male leadership). Some might remember DM's "The Joy of Followship" extolling what a pleasure it is to serve one's husband (fat lot of good that did her).
We were taught this:
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(And wives were not just subject to their own husbands, but to the "coordinators" and leadership who told the husband what to do and interfered with so many marriages and condoned so much violence and abuse.) (Hang on a minute while they give the scriptures another "twist".)
But this bit was never taught, not in any real practical sense:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Nourish and cherish? By beating up your wife? How many of these abusers beat themselves up?
Twisted scriptures? Wrung to death, more like.
Colossians 3:18-19
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
But then, a husband could hardly model himself on the sacrifice made by JC since we were basically taught to ignore JC and not read the gospels and consider the magnificent sacrifice that he did make for the Church. Was JC bitter against the church in spite of all the disobedience and rejection?
Come on guys, you know the answer!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Outfield
Oh my - this all rings so true to what I was taught and fought every line.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
Outfield,
It is just so healing to learn the truth. Remember how PFAL was supposed to teach us to "separate truth from error." I strongly suggest that learning to separate truth from error involves learning something to overcome the error we were taught back then.
WG
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
LOCKBOX! *spit*
What a manipulating bunch of BS! The lockbox was only "locked" when it suited the needs of some self-proclaimed MOG wanting you to cover his arse. Words like "integrity" and "honesty" were thrown around like beads at a Mardi Gras parade. They were part of the lie and the manipulation.
I once found myself in a situation where I had to decide if keeping a confidence was going to further enable a dog...errr... mog in his predatation of women. It went against everything in me to speak up. I hesitated. I tried not to speak. I tried to leave room for my error.
I spoke up, but I did it the wrong way. I should have spoken plainly and loudly. In the end, I was wrong - because I didn't say what I saw and just move on.
But the dog... mog (I keep mixing it up) - he used information to keep himself insulated. He played people against each other. And to this day people think he's wonderful.
Go figure...
*spit*
It has caused me to consider that when someone asks me to keep a confidence, I should first make sure they understand that promise is made on one condition only....If I find that the information I hold allows someone to be hurt as long as it is hidden, all bets are off.
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah.......Wierwille was THE prototype of the LCM doctrine and THAT is the dirty little secret that hq works very hard to stifle. Sure, make LCM the "fall guy" and tell all the folks that "he led twi astray and far away from pfal." Yet, when twi's history is OPENED..........it was WIERWILLE who "founded" the false doctrines, the death manipulation, the twisted mog-doctrine, the fear/believing cornerstone, the "just write the teacher" facade (cough, cough).
IMO........Cgeer ALSO wrote his idolatrous paper, The Passing of a Patriarch, to FURTHER cover up the sins of wierwille, using strong intimidation tactics to squelch any and all questions. Patriarch???.......using old testament terminology for "God's man who brought the First Century truth and revelations into the Twentieth Century????"
Just talking outta both sides of his mouth.........to distract and confuse. Sure don't want twi followers to step back and put the pieces of the wierwille/pyramid/scam together. Besides, ole geer would have alot to lose.......since he idolized the guy and wanted to start a wierwille-franchise that continues to this day.
<_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.