I find it hard to believe that twi could possibly be encouraging anyone to read "Christians Should Be Prosperous".
That booklet blows their stance on debt completely out of the water.
Actually, they will probably rewrite it to remove things that contradict with their current teachings. They seem to be fond of this, making new editions of old TWI books, telling people to throw away sections of their WAP syllibi, etc.
Up and be more faithful with your ABS= show support for the BOT/BOD we need your $$$$ :P-->
Outreach= show you support the BOD/BOT by getting new people to come and open their wallets...........the BOT/BOD needs their $$$$$$$$ :P-->
Tax issues in fellowship= The BOT/BOD is getting the IRS breathing down their necks, quick change policy because the BOD/BOT needs to keep your $$$$$$$ you gave to them.... -->
Thank-you please send $$$$$$$$$$ show your sold out commitment to the BOD/BOT
You think they maybe are hurting for $$$$$$$$$ ??? -->
I pray they are!!!!!!! :D-->
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
[This message was edited by Grizzy on February 17, 2003 at 18:43.]
Thanks for your posts here. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and good taste in movies.
Soooo...
Seeing all that you see, how hard would it be for you to leave?
You said that your wife and you have decided that you won't let twi come betweem you. Does she agree with you on most of these issues? Would she be willing to leave?
You've made some great points. Please continue.
I left about 2 years ago. I can't see how anyone would remain silent without questioning these new policy changes. Maybe some are just glad the heat is off.
Thomas Crown, glad to see you posting. Your perspective as an "insider" is very enlightening as to the current state of affairs at TWI and very much appreciated by us here (especially those of us who have spouses still doggedly committed to this business endeavor masquarading as a "ministry).
Anyway, one of your posts on this thread mentions that copies of one of the "new policy memos" read during fellowships was not made available to you because they are "copywrited documents". I just had to laugh. It appears that Rosie and the BOD have learned their painful lesson from the Waydale era well. I don't know if you're aware of this, but during the time when an anti-Way site called, Waydale was at it's most embarassing to TWI, one of the things used to damning effect, was TWI's own documents and memos disseminated to leadership among both staff and Corp on the field. I cannot count the number of times, Waydale exposure of such documents served to lift the veil of secrecy that TWI had worked so hard to maintain. These documents were scanned and posted on Waydale, revealing such heartless and restricting policies as, the Way Corp Baby Policy, Corp and Staff Pet Policy, Corp teachings and many Letters to The Corp that the BOT must have prefered not be made common knowledge. They certainly couldn't deny the existence of such documents since, once those "cats were out of the bag", there was no stuffing them back in. It was a time during which the klieg light of truth concerning the real nature of TWI was turned on full, 24/7 and they were scurrying like roaches, trying to find a dark corner in which to hide and figure out damage control. It was a wonderful thing to behold. Not coincidentally, it was during this time that the largest exodus of believers since "The Fog", amoung both leadership and your average Joe occurred---and many, many left even before the LCM sex scandal blew up in their faces! So yes, they are now very carefully guarding all written policy. The more copies desiminated, the more chance that such documents will end up on sites such as this for all the world to see. Can't have that now, can we..? Especially since policy and doctrine are such fluid things, subject to change at whim. Witness how they are handling the whole "Debt" sticky-wickett. It must really cheese them off to know that they are still not able to control their followers 100%. Even after the exodus of so many from among their ranks, there are still many who come to web sites such as Greasespot to express their dissatisfactions, and more importantly, report the goings-on at The Way.
I think many people forget that the main site of GS is a gold mine of information regarding the events of the past 4 - 5 years in TWI.
MTC - I stayed in for more than 5 years while I waited for my husband to see the light and want out. It was worth it. Had I pressured him into leaving because of my dislike of TWI, I feel he would have always wondered if he'd done the right thing. I wanted him to leave of his own choosing - not because of me.
Thank goodness for sites like Trancechat and Waydale that allowed me to vent anonymously until we were finally free of TWI. I think I may have put more pressure on my husband to leave if I hadn't had those outlets.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>
After spending plenty of time reading thru the forums here, there is no way anyone in their right minds could justify staying in twi. No offense, Thomas. "in their right minds" is just a figure of speech. But really, how could anyone stay in when reading all these forums. I mean rampant adultry, sexual abuse, drunkeness, fornication, bad theology etc. It's a cult!
Yes there are lots of reasons to leave TWI. The problem is with traditional sold-out wayfers you can't use the sins of the fathers as reasons to leave. They will agree that maybe some things were bad but we're in a new administration and you have to give them a chance because they are trying to fix things.
You can't bring up personal accounts from here at the GSpot because you aren't supposed to be on the internet looking at anti-TWI material. Mentioning that you got your information from such a site would stop the conversation cold and get you M&A and cut off from your family so fast your head would spin.
The plagerism is hard to prove without using the internet too. It's not something you would just happen upon in your regular studies.
The best arguments are pointing out the micro-management and none of your business meddling of the leadership. Also finding the inconsistencies and doctrinal errors during regular study time. The problem is that this takes a long time and has to build. Some of these errors which seem so glaringly obvious when you are not blinded by way-brain are more obscure when you can't see straight.
Die hard wayfers will also resist any attempt to prove that error is being taught. They justify or minimize it so easily and defensively that you have to tread lightly to prevent the relationship from crumbling.
It's a very delicate, volatile situation to be in. Those who want to keep their families safe from the attacks of TWI have a very fine line to walk. It just isn't as easy as some people seem to think it is.
It's a very delicate, volatile situation to be in. Those who want to keep their families safe from the attacks of TWI have a very fine line to walk. It just isn't as easy as some people seem to think it is.
Exactly!!
I can respect those who are trying to protect their family. I can understand those who want to leave with the family "in-tact" instead of their family being ripped apart by twi.
Isn't it better to leave on your own terms instead of on twi's terms?
How hard would it be for me to leave? Very. My husband is in an very active. He is fully supportive of TWI and doesn't listen to anything taht I would say different. We have three children. I have just stopped arguing and follow along. I do as little as possible, which issues critism from my husband. Knowing him the way I do, if I were to leave, it would be the end of my marriage. I would probably lose my children as well. So I continue just be quiet in the background. When my kids are on their own, I think I will make some changes, but I can't just don't know yet.
Just me, Welcome to the GSpot! If you've been lurking for very long then you know that there are quite a few of us in the same type of situation.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not post anything personal about you that would let anyone within TWI to know who you are. Please don't give the sex, age or names of your children. Please don't tell what nights you have fellowship or what area you are in. If you want to, you can click on "PRIVATE TOPIC" and post to one particular person there and no one can see.
You can also e-mail anyone who has established themselves as honest individuals with integrity and tell them of any announcements or things going on in your area so that they can filter, verify and share what you've learned without putting you in jeopardy.
The WAYGB is alive and well and they print, photocopy and keep files on all of the people who post here. If they find out who you are THEY WILL DESTROY your family.
Please feel free to start a private topic with me if you'd like and I will send my e-mail addy to you. I can tell you who I filter things through. They have kept my identity secret for a very long time.
I don't mean to scare you, but I would hate for you to experience first hand how awful the kinder, gentler TWI still is.
aside from that, can I buy you a danish and a coffee? ;)-->
quote:Anyway, one of your posts on this thread mentions that copies of one of the "new policy memos" read during fellowships was not made available to you because they are "copywrited documents". I just had to laugh. It appears that Rosie and the BOD have learned their painful lesson from the Waydale era well.
Waydale is the exact reason for the copyright on all their documents. When I was on Staff, we were told we didn't have to fill out vacation itinerary forms anymore, but we still had to provide our itinerary on our own format.
Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow, it empties today of its strength.
You know it would raise some suspicions without a doubt. I would think that they would "ask" (really TELL) you to change it. Anything to cover their @$$.
I knew someone who was in the Corps and got booted. This person told me the in-rez corps were grumbling about the way things were after the lcm lawsuit. The Corps coord, G**g B******k had a meeting telling them they could bring whatever they wanted out to be discussed. I think I mentioned this in another thread. The point is that they were told they could bring things up, and then got their @$$E$ kicked for doing so. One guy didn't get answers (I'm sure because the questions had too many legal liabilities behind them), so he wrote rozilla a letter. He got booted from the corps shortly thereafter. What does rozilla hide? I want to find this guy to talk to him.
Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow, it empties today of its strength.
It's still easy to stay in. I don't want to forsake the assembling together with like-minded believers.
Like Just Me, Thomas Crown, and other TWIers here, that's because my family will not consider that other assemblies might be better for us. We don't want to abandon the ministry that showed us we could trust the Bible without speaking up and knowing that the Word we speak is being rejected.
That hasn't happened yet. I read the guestbook on the CFFM website, and shed a tear when I read what someone wrote about how the weekly teaching was just what they needed to hear. It's been so rare in the past many years in TWI that I felt that way.
When I told my spouse that TWI seemed to have become a religion, my spouse said, "I'm not convinced of that yet. Let's wait and see how [this situation we are in with our something's-hidden-and-wrong-in-that-house-and-we-won't-let-it-stay-hidden-if-we-can-help-it leadership] turns out. We KNOW God's Word is powerful!"
It's hard to leave until we know we have done our best to live the Word here.
How hard will it be if that situation isn't exposed? Not hard at all.
MTC: I hear Mattthew 18:15-17. I was explaining to someone how they hurt me, and they said I should have done Matthew 18:15 WHEN IT HAPPENED instead of when I did. Their response seemed rather letter-of-the-law to me.
Did they change the behavior that hurts me? NO. I want to do Matthew 18:16 next, but it takes wisdom and the time is not right.
What Fence? means that even though there may be divisions among believers, I know that God honours each one's believing, and we are free to share whatever we are comfortable sharing with each other.
[This message was edited by What Fence? on March 07, 2003 at 3:46.]
I was in your situation for 5 years. I desperately wanted out of TWI but my husband felt that staying in was the best way to help change things. He didn't have blinders on when it came to TWI's problems, but felt that eventually, it would become the TWI he used to love.
So I waited. I went to fellowships. I went to Branch Meetings. I refused to go out of town to anything - that was the only thing I insisted on.
I prayed every day. My prayer was almost like a litany - "God - Please let my husband see the light and get us out of the ministry."
I don't know whether God had anything to do with it, probably not! But after LCM was demoted to head of the "research department" (ha! ha! ha! ha!) and nothing really changed after the first law suit was announced, my husband wrote a letter to Miz Rivenbark making heartfelt suggestions of how to effect (affect?) change in TWI. The answer was less than satisfactory. After he responded to that, we were kicked out.
I am glad I stayed in for my husband's sake. As I said in a previous post, I wanted him to see the light for himself, not because I shoved it in his face.
Just wanted to jump in here and comment on John's letter to Rosie. With deep concerns and systematically explaining many of his observations, John offers to help. What a great letter!!
The response by Rosie....
quote:"Dear John,
God bless you abundantly. I would like for you and Hope to come and visit us at headquarters. We?d house you and feed you, and show you around for a couple of days. This is the only way I know....
How is housing, feeding and giving a tour of the grounds at TWI going to answer their questions?
Sounds like they wanted to get their emotions all whipped up like they are trying to do to the WC who they've "strongly suggested" come to HQ and the poor souls who have to go on those bus trips.
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Actually, they will probably rewrite it to remove things that contradict with their current teachings. They seem to be fond of this, making new editions of old TWI books, telling people to throw away sections of their WAP syllibi, etc.
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:28.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:48.]
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Grizzy
Hey Mr. Crown.........
Thanks for the info you are posting here!
Up and be more faithful with your ABS= show support for the BOT/BOD we need your $$$$
:P-->
Outreach= show you support the BOD/BOT by getting new people to come and open their wallets...........the BOT/BOD needs their $$$$$$$$
:P-->
Tax issues in fellowship= The BOT/BOD is getting the IRS breathing down their necks, quick change policy because the BOD/BOT needs to keep your $$$$$$$ you gave to them....
-->
Thank-you please send $$$$$$$$$$ show your sold out commitment to the BOD/BOT
You think they maybe are hurting for $$$$$$$$$ ???
-->
I pray they are!!!!!!!
:D-->
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
[This message was edited by Grizzy on February 17, 2003 at 18:43.]
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lindyhopper
Mr. Thomas Crown,
Thanks for your posts here. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and good taste in movies.
Soooo...
Seeing all that you see, how hard would it be for you to leave?
You said that your wife and you have decided that you won't let twi come betweem you. Does she agree with you on most of these issues? Would she be willing to leave?
You've made some great points. Please continue.
I left about 2 years ago. I can't see how anyone would remain silent without questioning these new policy changes. Maybe some are just glad the heat is off.
Chilling.
post on.
Oh and
What's keeping you in?
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:36.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:49.]
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Cherished Child
Thomas Crown, glad to see you posting. Your perspective as an "insider" is very enlightening as to the current state of affairs at TWI and very much appreciated by us here (especially those of us who have spouses still doggedly committed to this business endeavor masquarading as a "ministry).
Anyway, one of your posts on this thread mentions that copies of one of the "new policy memos" read during fellowships was not made available to you because they are "copywrited documents". I just had to laugh. It appears that Rosie and the BOD have learned their painful lesson from the Waydale era well. I don't know if you're aware of this, but during the time when an anti-Way site called, Waydale was at it's most embarassing to TWI, one of the things used to damning effect, was TWI's own documents and memos disseminated to leadership among both staff and Corp on the field. I cannot count the number of times, Waydale exposure of such documents served to lift the veil of secrecy that TWI had worked so hard to maintain. These documents were scanned and posted on Waydale, revealing such heartless and restricting policies as, the Way Corp Baby Policy, Corp and Staff Pet Policy, Corp teachings and many Letters to The Corp that the BOT must have prefered not be made common knowledge. They certainly couldn't deny the existence of such documents since, once those "cats were out of the bag", there was no stuffing them back in. It was a time during which the klieg light of truth concerning the real nature of TWI was turned on full, 24/7 and they were scurrying like roaches, trying to find a dark corner in which to hide and figure out damage control. It was a wonderful thing to behold. Not coincidentally, it was during this time that the largest exodus of believers since "The Fog", amoung both leadership and your average Joe occurred---and many, many left even before the LCM sex scandal blew up in their faces! So yes, they are now very carefully guarding all written policy. The more copies desiminated, the more chance that such documents will end up on sites such as this for all the world to see. Can't have that now, can we..? Especially since policy and doctrine are such fluid things, subject to change at whim. Witness how they are handling the whole "Debt" sticky-wickett. It must really cheese them off to know that they are still not able to control their followers 100%. Even after the exodus of so many from among their ranks, there are still many who come to web sites such as Greasespot to express their dissatisfactions, and more importantly, report the goings-on at The Way.
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:55.]
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Hope R.
CC and all -
These documents are still available on the main Grease Spot Cafe page (Way Generated Documents).
I think many people forget that the main site of GS is a gold mine of information regarding the events of the past 4 - 5 years in TWI.
MTC - I stayed in for more than 5 years while I waited for my husband to see the light and want out. It was worth it. Had I pressured him into leaving because of my dislike of TWI, I feel he would have always wondered if he'd done the right thing. I wanted him to leave of his own choosing - not because of me.
Thank goodness for sites like Trancechat and Waydale that allowed me to vent anonymously until we were finally free of TWI. I think I may have put more pressure on my husband to leave if I hadn't had those outlets.
Hope R. color>size>face>
"Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong" - Lennon/McCartney size>
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 11:05.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:57.]
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Cherished Child
Sorry, Thomas. Haven't seen Lindy anywhere...(sigh)...
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chwester
After spending plenty of time reading thru the forums here, there is no way anyone in their right minds could justify staying in twi. No offense, Thomas. "in their right minds" is just a figure of speech. But really, how could anyone stay in when reading all these forums. I mean rampant adultry, sexual abuse, drunkeness, fornication, bad theology etc. It's a cult!
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simpleton
Yes there are lots of reasons to leave TWI. The problem is with traditional sold-out wayfers you can't use the sins of the fathers as reasons to leave. They will agree that maybe some things were bad but we're in a new administration and you have to give them a chance because they are trying to fix things.
You can't bring up personal accounts from here at the GSpot because you aren't supposed to be on the internet looking at anti-TWI material. Mentioning that you got your information from such a site would stop the conversation cold and get you M&A and cut off from your family so fast your head would spin.
The plagerism is hard to prove without using the internet too. It's not something you would just happen upon in your regular studies.
The best arguments are pointing out the micro-management and none of your business meddling of the leadership. Also finding the inconsistencies and doctrinal errors during regular study time. The problem is that this takes a long time and has to build. Some of these errors which seem so glaringly obvious when you are not blinded by way-brain are more obscure when you can't see straight.
Die hard wayfers will also resist any attempt to prove that error is being taught. They justify or minimize it so easily and defensively that you have to tread lightly to prevent the relationship from crumbling.
It's a very delicate, volatile situation to be in. Those who want to keep their families safe from the attacks of TWI have a very fine line to walk. It just isn't as easy as some people seem to think it is.
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Zshot
Exactly!!
I can respect those who are trying to protect their family. I can understand those who want to leave with the family "in-tact" instead of their family being ripped apart by twi.
Isn't it better to leave on your own terms instead of on twi's terms?
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Just me
How hard would it be for me to leave? Very. My husband is in an very active. He is fully supportive of TWI and doesn't listen to anything taht I would say different. We have three children. I have just stopped arguing and follow along. I do as little as possible, which issues critism from my husband. Knowing him the way I do, if I were to leave, it would be the end of my marriage. I would probably lose my children as well. So I continue just be quiet in the background. When my kids are on their own, I think I will make some changes, but I can't just don't know yet.
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Zshot
Just me,
Welcome to GS.
Hopefully, as time goes on, your husband will see twi as it truly is.
I can respect that you are doing what you think is best for your children.
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insurgent
Just me, Welcome to the GSpot! If you've been lurking for very long then you know that there are quite a few of us in the same type of situation.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not post anything personal about you that would let anyone within TWI to know who you are. Please don't give the sex, age or names of your children. Please don't tell what nights you have fellowship or what area you are in. If you want to, you can click on "PRIVATE TOPIC" and post to one particular person there and no one can see.
You can also e-mail anyone who has established themselves as honest individuals with integrity and tell them of any announcements or things going on in your area so that they can filter, verify and share what you've learned without putting you in jeopardy.
The WAYGB is alive and well and they print, photocopy and keep files on all of the people who post here. If they find out who you are THEY WILL DESTROY your family.
Please feel free to start a private topic with me if you'd like and I will send my e-mail addy to you. I can tell you who I filter things through. They have kept my identity secret for a very long time.
I don't mean to scare you, but I would hate for you to experience first hand how awful the kinder, gentler TWI still is.
aside from that, can I buy you a danish and a coffee?
;)-->
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Mr. Thomas Crown
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:59.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 11:21.]
[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 11:04.]
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Nottawayfer
Quote from Cherished Child:
Waydale is the exact reason for the copyright on all their documents. When I was on Staff, we were told we didn't have to fill out vacation itinerary forms anymore, but we still had to provide our itinerary on our own format.
Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow, it empties today of its strength.
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WaywardWayfer
WayferNot! I wonder if you would get in trouble for providing that itinerary with the comments on it such as:
"Per your instructions attached is a detailed itinerary...."
"According to TWI policy...."
and put at the bottom CC: Personal Files
That would get someone into all kinds of trouble, wouldn't it? Freedom abounds at TWI - not!
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Nottawayfer
Wayward:
You know it would raise some suspicions without a doubt. I would think that they would "ask" (really TELL) you to change it. Anything to cover their @$$.
I knew someone who was in the Corps and got booted. This person told me the in-rez corps were grumbling about the way things were after the lcm lawsuit. The Corps coord, G**g B******k had a meeting telling them they could bring whatever they wanted out to be discussed. I think I mentioned this in another thread. The point is that they were told they could bring things up, and then got their @$$E$ kicked for doing so. One guy didn't get answers (I'm sure because the questions had too many legal liabilities behind them), so he wrote rozilla a letter. He got booted from the corps shortly thereafter. What does rozilla hide? I want to find this guy to talk to him.
Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow, it empties today of its strength.
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What Fence?
It's still easy to stay in. I don't want to forsake the assembling together with like-minded believers.
Like Just Me, Thomas Crown, and other TWIers here, that's because my family will not consider that other assemblies might be better for us. We don't want to abandon the ministry that showed us we could trust the Bible without speaking up and knowing that the Word we speak is being rejected.
That hasn't happened yet. I read the guestbook on the CFFM website, and shed a tear when I read what someone wrote about how the weekly teaching was just what they needed to hear. It's been so rare in the past many years in TWI that I felt that way.
When I told my spouse that TWI seemed to have become a religion, my spouse said, "I'm not convinced of that yet. Let's wait and see how [this situation we are in with our something's-hidden-and-wrong-in-that-house-and-we-won't-let-it-stay-hidden-if-we-can-help-it leadership] turns out. We KNOW God's Word is powerful!"
It's hard to leave until we know we have done our best to live the Word here.
How hard will it be if that situation isn't exposed? Not hard at all.
MTC: I hear Mattthew 18:15-17. I was explaining to someone how they hurt me, and they said I should have done Matthew 18:15 WHEN IT HAPPENED instead of when I did. Their response seemed rather letter-of-the-law to me.
Did they change the behavior that hurts me? NO. I want to do Matthew 18:16 next, but it takes wisdom and the time is not right.
What Fence? means that even though there may be divisions among believers, I know that God honours each one's believing, and we are free to share whatever we are comfortable sharing with each other.
[This message was edited by What Fence? on March 07, 2003 at 3:46.]
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Hope R.
Just Me -
I was in your situation for 5 years. I desperately wanted out of TWI but my husband felt that staying in was the best way to help change things. He didn't have blinders on when it came to TWI's problems, but felt that eventually, it would become the TWI he used to love.
So I waited. I went to fellowships. I went to Branch Meetings. I refused to go out of town to anything - that was the only thing I insisted on.
I prayed every day. My prayer was almost like a litany - "God - Please let my husband see the light and get us out of the ministry."
I don't know whether God had anything to do with it, probably not! But after LCM was demoted to head of the "research department" (ha! ha! ha! ha!) and nothing really changed after the first law suit was announced, my husband wrote a letter to Miz Rivenbark making heartfelt suggestions of how to effect (affect?) change in TWI. The answer was less than satisfactory. After he responded to that, we were kicked out.
(See "Letters to Rosalie" on Grease Spot's main site.)
I am glad I stayed in for my husband's sake. As I said in a previous post, I wanted him to see the light for himself, not because I shoved it in his face.
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FreshAir 99
Hope,
Just wanted to jump in here and comment on John's letter to Rosie. With deep concerns and systematically explaining many of his observations, John offers to help. What a great letter!!
The response by Rosie....
...house you???? feed you???? show you????
WOW...... so glad I left!!!!!!
Fresh
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WaywardWayfer
How is housing, feeding and giving a tour of the grounds at TWI going to answer their questions?
Sounds like they wanted to get their emotions all whipped up like they are trying to do to the WC who they've "strongly suggested" come to HQ and the poor souls who have to go on those bus trips.
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