That does not ring any bells with me. Can't say I ever heard it or anything similar. Think if I had, I would have put that in the category of "Nope, disagree with that".
My sympathies in the loss of your brother in law. He sounded like a grand person. So glad he is free from the pain and suffering of cancer. I'm sure his last days were agonizing. The only "silver lining" I can see from that is that it makes it much easier for his loved ones to say goodbye, and easier for the one suffering to say I'm ready to be at rest.
I am sorry that (((((((((You and Your Family)))))))))) lost a Loved one in such a hurtful and difficult way! May GOD Bless and Comfort You all!
I was never taught what you indicate here in your post either. Perhaps it was the private interpretation from the one who taught it to You! How could it be true if we suffer in our lives here and now; then it would seem rather hard to escape it in death as well.
Our sufferings in life are not always due to our bad choices and mistakes; some of them are inflicted upon us by others and circumstances!
A peaceful life or death is never promised in GOD's word and we are not the cause of either, all the time! Ala have You ever noticed that some very cruel people die very peacefully? Some very Good people are hurt all their lives and even suffer in death as well!
I do remember a teaching, but I don't remember which MOG it was, if it came down from a corpse night or on the wow field or at one of the roots, but I do remember one of them specifically saying that if you're on the word your body will just wear out and you'll just die in your sleep. the teaching either intimated or explicitly stated that if you get off the word, the devil can kill you as he pleases.
I don't believe that was ever taught. It is evident from life that a peaceful death is not something that is ever promisd to believers. Hebrews 13 talks about some cruel things that happened to believers it also says that believing quenched the fires which means that God di not let the believers feel the full impact of burning when they were burned at the stake. I don't know anyone who would like to volunteer though to see if this is truly a promise of God or something special to a few believers.
I had heard how cruel craiggers had been in what he said about believers who had been killed but you need to consider the raving lunatic that this came out from.
My condolences for your loss, I hope the Word can comfort you in this time of your loss. Please don't let the teachings of the TWI take anything from you.
I vaguely remember Martindale saying something like that, tied to the folks in Hebrews who "died in faith/believing". Couldn't tell you how he backed it up.
I remember hearing people say this but I don't recall it ever being taught.
I think the first time I heard someone say this was in about 1974.
(I was not in the Corps and therefore this is second hand.)
Wierwille gave an order that the Corps was not to leave the grounds one weekend.
One of the men left anyway and went into town. He died as a result of a car accident that night.
The buzz that went around was that Wierwille had received revelation about the accident and that is why he had given that directive. People used it to play up the hedge of protection thing as well as the manner in which he died.
Another time I heard it was when two women and some children died in a terrible car wreck after leaving The Rock of Ages.
(I only know one woman's name. I don't know whose children they were.)
There was talk that followed along the lines of what has been stated here.
Another time was when Lester G. became acutely ill and died. The talk was that he died this way because he couldn't believe and his lack of believing was a sign of being out of fellowship.
There are probably more that I could think of.
The point is, though, that I never actually heard this formally taught.
That doesn't mean it wasn't but I never heard it(as far as I recall)
Well, if the Bible is TWI's only source of faith and practice, you read that same passage in Hebrews (11:36:38) about HOW the faithful died, and considering that 10 of the 12 apostles were martyred (Judas commited suicide and John lived to an old age) I don't think you can promise that the faithful will die a peaceful death.
Also considering we are made of corruptible flesh would make me think that a peaceful death is unlikely to be a promise.
However, the faithful are promised a new life in Christ, an eternal life, and a body with no pain, no suffering, no disease, no aches, no pains, no aging.
Elijah sat under a Juniper tree and requested to die; some teachings with this context had mentioned of God's design was death coming peacefully to the righteous. Didn't Isaac give the blessing to Jacob and then died a peaceful death? But then John the Baptist had a quick death but I am not so sure it was peaceful. Look at Hebrews and all those that died in faith included the ones tied up in animal skins and sent into the wilderness, and what about the verses about prophets getting murdered?
LCM did use untimely death to prove the weakness of the person that died, that is not found in the bible. Perhaps more often the good dying young………
Once vp and lcm had set themselves up as MOGs and had pretty much done away with the Bible (except to make us feel it was drudgery and monotonous due to inane Retemories) they could pretty much tell us anything and we would believe them.
At least at the moment we'd buy it! They had us so convinced that we were the ONLY right group, and they were the ONLY MOG's, so we'd better pay attention to them.
They kept us so busy, and so tired, and so full of protocol, that we had no time to think about the crap they were forcing down out gullets! No wonder they got away with all that they did.
How a group can define what the "proper" way of dying is kinda nuts.
I think it boils down to: if you were "faithful" for years upon years.. gave rather generously.. kissed enough wrinkled rear ends, often and profusely, didn't confront evil or be responsible for "controversy", one could then have a "good" death. Even then, that varied from one case to the next.
Other than that, people were slandered after death, that their unfaithfulness, sin, or something else caused it..
This teaching about a "peaceful death" is offensive to me in so many ways I don't know where to begin...
WHO determines what a "peaceful death" is? Some MOG in an office that has been served hand and foot and claims to be standing for God while he destroys lives? Just how peaceful can his own life be? Elitism in death...pffffffffft!
Then of course - there's Jesus Christ - I guess he wasn't standing for God because he got beaten and tortured beyond recognition.
All but a few of the apostles died horrible deaths.
As I recall, Jesus said that many of his disciples would face pain because of their stand.
Then there are the men and women who fight for their country and see things while they are alive that no one should ever see in their lifetime, let alone how some of these men and women die. You may not agree with a particular war but you still have to admire any person who will put their lives on the line for their fellow men.
Children in cancer wards die. Teens die in car wrecks. What about those various shootings at churches and schools? Who wants to be the MOG that stands up and talks about how ungodly their lives were? Veins popping and venom spewing. This is rejoicing in fabricated iniquity just to puff up an ego and promote an ungodly doctrine.
IMO this is far worst than the "God needs a rose petal in heaven" teaching.
People die. It wasn't bad enough that TWI taught it's followers to judge how everyone lives, they also feel the need to judge how they die.
Then they do a nice teaching on "The Hope"...
Ala - I am sorry for not only your loss and your sister's loss as well.
I would like to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for pouring your thoughts, your soul, your heart into these posts. Your input has helped me tremendously to see the darkness, the evil intent in which this thinking stems from.
I remember when I first came here to GS, listening to an audio sharing that was posted somewhere in the documents part of this site. It was one that D. Martind*le shared when a certain ex-cabinet member's daughter had died in an accident. She shared that the father having left twi, was the reason for this child's death. ONLY someone with Cult Thinking could make sense of that.
Like Doojable shared, 'God needs another rose petal in heaven' teaching is outshined by this type of judgment and thinking.
Krys, your words are beautiful and heartfelt. I too sometimes beg forgiveness for my way of thinking and especially the harshness in which I used to treat people.
Thank you again everyone. All of your words have helped me tremendously.
ala, I'm very sorry you lost someone. I didn't realize when I replied earlier. there were things I could have said because I just watched someone very dear to me lose a battle with cancer. the twi indoctrination regarding death could have colored my last days with this person. the loved one I lost was a good person, someone very close, and it is a tragic fact that the death was too young. twi is a devilish organization that teaches you to think evil of people at times when they need to be loved, and I'm so glad I was out of twi and where I belonged, loving instead of judging.
Hello A La!.........and hello to all you wonderful greasespotters who have posted on this thread!.........your hearts and compassion have been most inspiring........thank you!
TWI'S ridiculous and emotionally cruel "teachings" regarding death and the dying, were rooted in the "great fear" common to mankind,....the fear of death!.....countless volumes, by thousands of great philosophical thinkers, have wrestled with this most primal of fears common to the human soul.....many have positted that most of the world's great religions owe their "genesis" to the quest to answer or eliminate this fear.
my experience with twi's teachings is, that they were totally subjective and rooted in vic's personal fear of death and martindale's immature ignorance which compounded his own fear of death and lack of understanding regarding it.......both these "mogs" taught what was most convenient to them personally at the time, and,... according to the specific circumstances surrounding the death of various people,..... which "required" some sort of public "explanation" to alleviate their (vic's and martindale's) own personal fears, and handle the confusion caused by whatever questions those deaths raised.
"accidental deaths" were always hyper-analyzed by these foolish mogs!.....always to prove that the accidents which caused the untimely deaths of the victims, were the fault of those victims!.....always, there was the public scrutiny as to where the dead disobeyed or missed "revelation" from god or the mogs, that would have avoided the accidents altogether, or, avoided the deaths caused by the victims' unbelief!.....this was always meant to prove vic's or martindale's "superior spiritual insight" into the "real causes" of the accidents or to highlight their superior "believing ability" to walk with god, and, thereby have "all the answers" to the unanswerable questions raised in the hearts of the victims' families and friends.......these public statements were nothing more than egotistical, self-serving, speechmaking on their part, and accomplished the opposite of the comfort vic and martindale could and should have provided to the grieving!.....it was arrogant, cruel, and hopelessly out of touch with reality!
there was very little teaching given to twi clergy regarding funeral services for beleivers...... as a matter of fact, beyond the "edict" to push for a closed casket at the service or funeral home, the obvious scripture references to "the hope", and/or "the gathering together", and the positive focus encouraged for the eulogy content......there was just about NOTHING taught!.........actually, i never saw vic or the dancing prez ever officiate at any funeral the entire time i was in twi!!
regarding non-accidental deaths of believers, there was general confusion amongst twi clergy as to how to handle funeral services.....so, the poor believers were stuck with whatever the personal sensibilities (or lack thereof) of the local corps or clergy were, regarding death and dying!.....needless to say, this caused an almost total lack of professional, comfort and support for the grieving families left behind!!
my personal understanding of death and dying has been most powerfully influenced by my experience and training in my profession.......i have learned about the dignity of the human spirit (and its opposite), by providing end-of-life care in the hospital setting, and by having the privilege of working with and observing hospice nurses.........who, imho, are the greatest "living epistles" of caring for the dying and their loved ones, anywhere on the planet!!.....they are truly amazing and caring people who provide a service to their fellow humans that is incredibly admirable!...they have taught me more about the "right way" to perceive, understand, and accept the inevitable end of human life on earth than a thousand lifetimes of trying to ferret out twi's "teachings" on the subject could ever have provided!!.....their empathetic, tireless, and selfless care is objective, non-judgmental, and totally comforting to both patients and families!..... the art and science of their care is an outstanding human achievement, imho......there is no emotional cruelty inflicted by them.....there are no "excuses" made, there are no painful analyses put forth......just dignified, gracious, care to those who need it!!..........truly a beauty to behold!
i'm sure A La and her siser can testify to the help hospice nurses provided for both A La's brother-in-law and her sister.......i'm sure they learned more about death and dying from them than they ever knew before......and, i'm sure they'll never forget those caregivers and the service they provided!
death is the ugly, painful, part of the "circle of life"........no one is ever really "ready" for it until it's upon you.......no one ever knows how to "deal with it" until they have to......when that time comes, i hope they are lucky enough to have a loving family to provide support, a hospice nurse to provide care, and total freedom from any remnants of twi theology to provide for kindness and understanding!!
i too, am sorry for your loss A La!......................................................................peace.
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Suda
Ala,
That does not ring any bells with me. Can't say I ever heard it or anything similar. Think if I had, I would have put that in the category of "Nope, disagree with that".
My sympathies in the loss of your brother in law. He sounded like a grand person. So glad he is free from the pain and suffering of cancer. I'm sure his last days were agonizing. The only "silver lining" I can see from that is that it makes it much easier for his loved ones to say goodbye, and easier for the one suffering to say I'm ready to be at rest.
Praying for you and your family.
XOXOXOXO,
Suda
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RainbowsGirl
Dear (((((((Ala))))))),
I am sorry that (((((((((You and Your Family)))))))))) lost a Loved one in such a hurtful and difficult way! May GOD Bless and Comfort You all!
I was never taught what you indicate here in your post either. Perhaps it was the private interpretation from the one who taught it to You! How could it be true if we suffer in our lives here and now; then it would seem rather hard to escape it in death as well.
Our sufferings in life are not always due to our bad choices and mistakes; some of them are inflicted upon us by others and circumstances!
A peaceful life or death is never promised in GOD's word and we are not the cause of either, all the time! Ala have You ever noticed that some very cruel people die very peacefully? Some very Good people are hurt all their lives and even suffer in death as well!
I love You Ala, RainbowsGirl
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potato
I do remember a teaching, but I don't remember which MOG it was, if it came down from a corpse night or on the wow field or at one of the roots, but I do remember one of them specifically saying that if you're on the word your body will just wear out and you'll just die in your sleep. the teaching either intimated or explicitly stated that if you get off the word, the devil can kill you as he pleases.
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Out There
I don't believe that was ever taught. It is evident from life that a peaceful death is not something that is ever promisd to believers. Hebrews 13 talks about some cruel things that happened to believers it also says that believing quenched the fires which means that God di not let the believers feel the full impact of burning when they were burned at the stake. I don't know anyone who would like to volunteer though to see if this is truly a promise of God or something special to a few believers.
I had heard how cruel craiggers had been in what he said about believers who had been killed but you need to consider the raving lunatic that this came out from.
My condolences for your loss, I hope the Word can comfort you in this time of your loss. Please don't let the teachings of the TWI take anything from you.
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Oakspear
I vaguely remember Martindale saying something like that, tied to the folks in Hebrews who "died in faith/believing". Couldn't tell you how he backed it up.
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waysider
I remember hearing people say this but I don't recall it ever being taught.
I think the first time I heard someone say this was in about 1974.
(I was not in the Corps and therefore this is second hand.)
Wierwille gave an order that the Corps was not to leave the grounds one weekend.
One of the men left anyway and went into town. He died as a result of a car accident that night.
The buzz that went around was that Wierwille had received revelation about the accident and that is why he had given that directive. People used it to play up the hedge of protection thing as well as the manner in which he died.
Another time I heard it was when two women and some children died in a terrible car wreck after leaving The Rock of Ages.
(I only know one woman's name. I don't know whose children they were.)
There was talk that followed along the lines of what has been stated here.
Another time was when Lester G. became acutely ill and died. The talk was that he died this way because he couldn't believe and his lack of believing was a sign of being out of fellowship.
There are probably more that I could think of.
The point is, though, that I never actually heard this formally taught.
That doesn't mean it wasn't but I never heard it(as far as I recall)
My condolences go out to you, A la p.
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Watered Garden
Well, if the Bible is TWI's only source of faith and practice, you read that same passage in Hebrews (11:36:38) about HOW the faithful died, and considering that 10 of the 12 apostles were martyred (Judas commited suicide and John lived to an old age) I don't think you can promise that the faithful will die a peaceful death.
Also considering we are made of corruptible flesh would make me think that a peaceful death is unlikely to be a promise.
However, the faithful are promised a new life in Christ, an eternal life, and a body with no pain, no suffering, no disease, no aches, no pains, no aging.
WG
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George Aar
I've been out a WayWorld longer than I was in now, but I remember something along that line being taught with regards to Moses' death.
Moses laid down and died at age 120. He'd fought the good fight and was just tired, so he quietly passed away, yadda, yadda...
And - naturally - that kind of life (and death) was available to all believers who stayed faithful.
Just more unsubstantiated religious dogma...
And A la,
Mes sympathies de sincereist
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A la prochaine
To everyone,
Thank you for the comments and condolences.
I didn't want to make the recent death the subject here but rather the thinking that TWI bred.
Thanks for the comments... keep it coming!!!! I agree with you all!
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Ductape
Elijah sat under a Juniper tree and requested to die; some teachings with this context had mentioned of God's design was death coming peacefully to the righteous. Didn't Isaac give the blessing to Jacob and then died a peaceful death? But then John the Baptist had a quick death but I am not so sure it was peaceful. Look at Hebrews and all those that died in faith included the ones tied up in animal skins and sent into the wilderness, and what about the verses about prophets getting murdered?
LCM did use untimely death to prove the weakness of the person that died, that is not found in the bible. Perhaps more often the good dying young………
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Bolshevik
I remember this coming up after Mrs O passed away. I guess she went the "proper" way.
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krys
Once vp and lcm had set themselves up as MOGs and had pretty much done away with the Bible (except to make us feel it was drudgery and monotonous due to inane Retemories) they could pretty much tell us anything and we would believe them.
At least at the moment we'd buy it! They had us so convinced that we were the ONLY right group, and they were the ONLY MOG's, so we'd better pay attention to them.
They kept us so busy, and so tired, and so full of protocol, that we had no time to think about the crap they were forcing down out gullets! No wonder they got away with all that they did.
Forgive us Father....we should have known better.
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Shellon
Ala, I am sorry for this loss as well.
And given my husbands story and his death while in twi, my lens is going to be biased.
I shall just keep reading too and see what others might share.
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Ham
I'm sorry for your loss too, dear friend.
How a group can define what the "proper" way of dying is kinda nuts.
I think it boils down to: if you were "faithful" for years upon years.. gave rather generously.. kissed enough wrinkled rear ends, often and profusely, didn't confront evil or be responsible for "controversy", one could then have a "good" death. Even then, that varied from one case to the next.
Other than that, people were slandered after death, that their unfaithfulness, sin, or something else caused it..
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doojable
The bottom line is that DEATH IS AN ENEMY.
This teaching about a "peaceful death" is offensive to me in so many ways I don't know where to begin...
WHO determines what a "peaceful death" is? Some MOG in an office that has been served hand and foot and claims to be standing for God while he destroys lives? Just how peaceful can his own life be? Elitism in death...pffffffffft!
Then of course - there's Jesus Christ - I guess he wasn't standing for God because he got beaten and tortured beyond recognition.
All but a few of the apostles died horrible deaths.
As I recall, Jesus said that many of his disciples would face pain because of their stand.
Then there are the men and women who fight for their country and see things while they are alive that no one should ever see in their lifetime, let alone how some of these men and women die. You may not agree with a particular war but you still have to admire any person who will put their lives on the line for their fellow men.
Children in cancer wards die. Teens die in car wrecks. What about those various shootings at churches and schools? Who wants to be the MOG that stands up and talks about how ungodly their lives were? Veins popping and venom spewing. This is rejoicing in fabricated iniquity just to puff up an ego and promote an ungodly doctrine.
IMO this is far worst than the "God needs a rose petal in heaven" teaching.
People die. It wasn't bad enough that TWI taught it's followers to judge how everyone lives, they also feel the need to judge how they die.
Then they do a nice teaching on "The Hope"...
Ala - I am sorry for not only your loss and your sister's loss as well.
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skyrider
Only a demented doctrine from a cult does that.
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waysider
If that doesn't sum it up, what will?
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A la prochaine
TO EVERYONE WHO HAS POSTED HERE ON THIS THREAD:
I would like to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for pouring your thoughts, your soul, your heart into these posts. Your input has helped me tremendously to see the darkness, the evil intent in which this thinking stems from.
I remember when I first came here to GS, listening to an audio sharing that was posted somewhere in the documents part of this site. It was one that D. Martind*le shared when a certain ex-cabinet member's daughter had died in an accident. She shared that the father having left twi, was the reason for this child's death. ONLY someone with Cult Thinking could make sense of that.
Like Doojable shared, 'God needs another rose petal in heaven' teaching is outshined by this type of judgment and thinking.
Krys, your words are beautiful and heartfelt. I too sometimes beg forgiveness for my way of thinking and especially the harshness in which I used to treat people.
Thank you again everyone. All of your words have helped me tremendously.
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potato
ala, I'm very sorry you lost someone. I didn't realize when I replied earlier. there were things I could have said because I just watched someone very dear to me lose a battle with cancer. the twi indoctrination regarding death could have colored my last days with this person. the loved one I lost was a good person, someone very close, and it is a tragic fact that the death was too young. twi is a devilish organization that teaches you to think evil of people at times when they need to be loved, and I'm so glad I was out of twi and where I belonged, loving instead of judging.
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krys
Ala, or anyone who is grieving over a difficult death..........
twi and it's henchmen said whatever would hurt the most as it suited them - - never thinking........
Who had the worst of all possible deaths - - but the greatest believing of all?????? It was Jesus Christ. Think about it.
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socks
Ala, I'm sorry for your family's loss. I'm sure there's a heap of good to celebrate in his life. My best to you and yours.
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A la prochaine
Socks,
thank you very much for your thoughts.
Things are good and returning to normal.
Everyone's thoughts and input has helped me tremendously put things in the right place and sort my thoughts.
You are all a wonderful and soulful. glad i'm here.
xoxo
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DontWorryBeHappy
Hello A La!.........and hello to all you wonderful greasespotters who have posted on this thread!.........your hearts and compassion have been most inspiring........thank you!
TWI'S ridiculous and emotionally cruel "teachings" regarding death and the dying, were rooted in the "great fear" common to mankind,....the fear of death!.....countless volumes, by thousands of great philosophical thinkers, have wrestled with this most primal of fears common to the human soul.....many have positted that most of the world's great religions owe their "genesis" to the quest to answer or eliminate this fear.
my experience with twi's teachings is, that they were totally subjective and rooted in vic's personal fear of death and martindale's immature ignorance which compounded his own fear of death and lack of understanding regarding it.......both these "mogs" taught what was most convenient to them personally at the time, and,... according to the specific circumstances surrounding the death of various people,..... which "required" some sort of public "explanation" to alleviate their (vic's and martindale's) own personal fears, and handle the confusion caused by whatever questions those deaths raised.
"accidental deaths" were always hyper-analyzed by these foolish mogs!.....always to prove that the accidents which caused the untimely deaths of the victims, were the fault of those victims!.....always, there was the public scrutiny as to where the dead disobeyed or missed "revelation" from god or the mogs, that would have avoided the accidents altogether, or, avoided the deaths caused by the victims' unbelief!.....this was always meant to prove vic's or martindale's "superior spiritual insight" into the "real causes" of the accidents or to highlight their superior "believing ability" to walk with god, and, thereby have "all the answers" to the unanswerable questions raised in the hearts of the victims' families and friends.......these public statements were nothing more than egotistical, self-serving, speechmaking on their part, and accomplished the opposite of the comfort vic and martindale could and should have provided to the grieving!.....it was arrogant, cruel, and hopelessly out of touch with reality!
there was very little teaching given to twi clergy regarding funeral services for beleivers...... as a matter of fact, beyond the "edict" to push for a closed casket at the service or funeral home, the obvious scripture references to "the hope", and/or "the gathering together", and the positive focus encouraged for the eulogy content......there was just about NOTHING taught!.........actually, i never saw vic or the dancing prez ever officiate at any funeral the entire time i was in twi!!
regarding non-accidental deaths of believers, there was general confusion amongst twi clergy as to how to handle funeral services.....so, the poor believers were stuck with whatever the personal sensibilities (or lack thereof) of the local corps or clergy were, regarding death and dying!.....needless to say, this caused an almost total lack of professional, comfort and support for the grieving families left behind!!
my personal understanding of death and dying has been most powerfully influenced by my experience and training in my profession.......i have learned about the dignity of the human spirit (and its opposite), by providing end-of-life care in the hospital setting, and by having the privilege of working with and observing hospice nurses.........who, imho, are the greatest "living epistles" of caring for the dying and their loved ones, anywhere on the planet!!.....they are truly amazing and caring people who provide a service to their fellow humans that is incredibly admirable!...they have taught me more about the "right way" to perceive, understand, and accept the inevitable end of human life on earth than a thousand lifetimes of trying to ferret out twi's "teachings" on the subject could ever have provided!!.....their empathetic, tireless, and selfless care is objective, non-judgmental, and totally comforting to both patients and families!..... the art and science of their care is an outstanding human achievement, imho......there is no emotional cruelty inflicted by them.....there are no "excuses" made, there are no painful analyses put forth......just dignified, gracious, care to those who need it!!..........truly a beauty to behold!
i'm sure A La and her siser can testify to the help hospice nurses provided for both A La's brother-in-law and her sister.......i'm sure they learned more about death and dying from them than they ever knew before......and, i'm sure they'll never forget those caregivers and the service they provided!
death is the ugly, painful, part of the "circle of life"........no one is ever really "ready" for it until it's upon you.......no one ever knows how to "deal with it" until they have to......when that time comes, i hope they are lucky enough to have a loving family to provide support, a hospice nurse to provide care, and total freedom from any remnants of twi theology to provide for kindness and understanding!!
i too, am sorry for your loss A La!......................................................................peace.
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A la prochaine
DWBH,
your post brought me tears...thank you.
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