I agree Lifted. *Forgive and forget* and *move on* in and of itself is not offensive. Heck, it is required in every day life to survive.... it is employed in friendship, at work, raising teenagers...in marriage, or you just plain don`t make it ... (we have an anniversary on monday so I wax nostalgic I guess) It is when it is used as a club to shut someone up....that it becomes cruel.
While working with them in the arena, anything can happen. Some bite, some kick, some will flat out run you ever if given the chance.
You can`t get mad, that is what happens when you train young horses. You can`t hold it against them, that is how they react to certain situations. You patiently encourage them in another direction ....if you are angry, they know it, if you are vindictive and punishing they don`t know why....You just watch them like a hawk to avoid getting hurt and move on.
No anger, no malice.....in a sense...you forgive and move on....every session of every day.
However IF...one day, you have a family that comes to the arena and greatly admires the pretty buckskin pony that you are training....they see nothing but the stunning color, are dazzled by the graceful movements as he is worked by an experienced rider....nothing will do but they have that pony for little bethany to show....
It would be extremely negligent to sell that pony KNOWING what you do... to that inexperienced family that only sees his good points, while you yourself are well aware that the pony has a propensity to bite, to buck, to kick your head in if given the right chance.
Now...I could sell the pony, and MAYBE the little girl wouldn`t get hurt too badly. Of course not...your responsibility would be to steer that family to the old placid dead broke mare, she isn`t pretty and she isn`t flashy, but that is exactly what that little girl needs to ride on.
Now, am I being vindictive towards the horse? Am I lacking in forgiveness? Have I failed to move on from the previous mistakes the horse has made in training?
No, as the person experienced with that particular horse, I am aware of the danger, I warn the inexperienced child to stay away from the back end, I don`t allow the child near the head unless I have a tight grip on his halter.
In short, I protect the innocent, the unwary. It isn`t because I can`t move past it, it isn`t because I hate the horse, it is because that is the responsible thing to do.
As angry as the family is over my refusal to sell...I won`t budge.
I have had a pony that was so dangerous, no amount of love, attention, or training made any difference....it was so nasty , so willing to attack children , that it needed to be destroyed...pure and simple.
I wouldn`t send it to the auction, knowing that her pretty color would sell her, and her small size guaranteed that it would be to a child....that I could pocket my money and never look back..Hey I got my mony...she is somebody elses problem now....To do this knowing that she would be bought for a child ... that the unwary, uninformed family might suffer tragedy was unthinkable.
As with the horses, my lack of dismissal of twi`s harmfull actions....it isn`t about being vindictive, it isn`t being mean spirited, it isn`t even mental instability that prevents me from forgiving, forgetting, and moving on. As with the family, it is a sense of integrity, duty, and obligation that motivates, and will continue to inspire me to educate people of the dangers, and warn the unwarey.
To do anything else would be negligent. For someone to require that I forgive, forget, and move on in either situation would be irresponsible , unkind, and have possibly tragic consequences.
I hope that explains my position better.
So, guys who want to, maligne all you wish. Go ahead, make up and assign rediculous motives for my adamant refusal to *forget and move on* all you please ...It is my hope, that derision and harassment will never deter me from what I see as my obligation and responsibility.
It is when it is used as a club to shut someone up....that it becomes cruel.
When I would hurt myself as a child, which I did quite often I would run home to my mommy crying profusely. Upon entering the house the first thing that my mom would say to me was "Quit crying you can't be hurt that bad." And nearly every time she said that she was correct. But when I cut the roof of my mouth off (the first time) in a freak accident she stopped saying that to me.
Mom wasn't using it as a club or in an effort to minimize my pain, she really didn't think that I could possibly hurt myself bad enough to warrant that much noise. She unfortunately learned otherwise and I learned not to cry over little things.
The point is, sometimes telling someone to "shut up and get over it" is a knee jerk reaction to hearing pain expressed in an audible way. Some people are uncomfortable "hearing" pain. Others just dont believe that people could be in any pain because of the actions of others. An attituded that "words dont hurt" is a common misconception of those that advocate the "get over it" point of view.
As you say "when it is used as a club to shut someone up" it can be cruel. But there can be more than one reason that the person wants another to "shut up". Often the pain that one is expressing hits "too close to home" on another, so instead of feeling this pain as well they insist that you shut up.
Anyway I think that there is more than one reason for saying "get over it". The forgive and forget teaching of twi was callous and promoted the exact opposite of what forgiveness was designed by God to accomplish. I think that God wanted us to forgive others so that we could be free of the burden of our anger or pain. They after all do not need the forgiveness of any human. If they have sinned they need God's forgiveness. But God exhorts us to forgive others as He for Christs' sake forgave us. Why? So we do not carry unnecessary emotional burdens and perhaps miss out on other blessings that the unforgiven one could have in our lives. (Like a family grudge...not like forgiving VP)
Those are some of my thoughts this morning.
Edi, that was a pair of amazing posts. Thank you.
John, I dont think that I have ever read such an honest post from you. Very enlightening.
I noticed from looking at several threads that there are people who seem to enjoy parroting "get over it" or some form of that expression. "Why are you dwelling on something that happened years ago?" etc etc…
I'm not sure if anyone else had this problem or not, but when I was younger my father always told me to immediately forgive and forget… even if no one asked me for forgiveness. I just needed to forget instead and never bring it up again.
If I was abused by someone – I was to forgive them even if they had every intention of hurting me again. If I ever became angry at being mistreated I was punished. Hell, even if I was overly happy I was punished because any extreme form of any emotion was me being "out of control" of myself.
I was never able to really feel.
Suddenly I come to this site – and I understand now that it is alright to feel things. I've been experiencing anger, abundant happiness. Over twenty year's worth. It feels good to finally tell everyone how I feel. I'm slowly starting to feel normal – and even after I do feel normal and content… I might still stay on here – not because I am still angry but because I want to help people.
It aggravates me when I see some people tell others how they should get over events in their life or dictate how they should have already forgiven someone already and how the victims are wasting their time and energy on always being angry.
Even if someone was angry and venting forever and ever… I wouldn't care as long as it made them feel better.
So why is it so hard for some people to deal with this? Reasons? Speculations? Inquiring minds would like to know!....
Nero, great thread…and don't think I've said this before so welcome to Grease Spot. I've been re-reading the first part of this thread several times – there's some great stuff to think about! For me the thing that stands out most is amindset that suppresses feelings prevents folks from fully processing their experiences.
Very well put, Rascal! Yes, it was drilled into us that "feelings come and go, but the Word of God liveth and abideth forever" which IMO means that I had to turn off genuine, human responses which for the most part were appropriate, and turn on the switch that recited a Bible verse to "control" my mind with, thereby negating the emotion.
This bred confusion, frustration, coldness, and arrogance. I regret very much having succumbed to that. Thankfully, a person can change that way of being. Thankfully, simple kindness and patience with oneself and others mends the soul...it did mine.
.....the same is true regarding the re-programming of the emotions of the faithful......to successfully generate "group think" to replace individual critical thinking and reliance upon one's "gut feelings"......anyone expressing indivuality which ran contrary to vic's doctrines was of neccessity "shunned".......it is required in order to avoid the spread of critical thinking which would lead any normal person to question and eventually reject what "the teacher" was saying!!.....
at the same time, the repression of normal human emotional expression generates dysfunction of the same!..which dysfunction is a necessary component in the
'leader's" toolbox to exert the powerful control over the group necessary to accomplish his wicked "goals"!.............
thankfully, enough of us were able to break the chains of the "mind control" and restore to ourselves reliance upon our individual critical thinking processes and our own "gut feelings" to finally break for freedom!!!..............thanks to god for his grace and help in saving us from the horrible repression of thought and emotions prescribed for us by the "teacher.
Thinking of emotions in the Bible, Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed their sick [Matthew 14: 14]. Of course, there's the mention of Jesus looking at the Pharisees in anger for their hardness of hearts toward the man with the withered hand. And maybe we could consider His healing the man's withered hand as shock therapy for their withered hearts – but if you wonder how the Pharisees felt after Jesus healed him – they only became more obstinate and unresponsive to the truth [Mark 3:1-6].
And when we read of Jesus cleansing the temple, making a scourge of cords, driving out those selling sheep and oxen, dumping out coins of the moneychangers and overturning tables – it doesn't say what He was feeling – but I bet it wasn't happy thoughts [John 2:17 refers to the zeal that consumed Him].
Emotions are part of our thinking process – how we understand/interpret an experience and often provide an impetus to take action. In II Corinthians 7:11 we find true repentance cannot occur apart from the sinner understanding what they did was wrong and feeling genuine sorrow over sin.
By encouraging the suppression of emotions, manipulators have an effective tool for altering the perception of experiences and motivation can be re-directed or diffused. People become puppets on strings, as manipulators deem which emotions are valid [which emotions are okay to act upon] or reduced to being human camcorders, taking in experiences like an emotionless piece of recording equipment. If emotional capacity were like a muscle – for a typical TWI follower it was atrophied.
If experiences are not fully processed by the individual – issues remain unresolved in the mind. Take for example a matter of forgiveness as you mentioned in your post. The point of forgiveness is reconciliation. You want person A and person B to resolve their differences and get back together. Person A is NOT genuinely sorry as indicated by their attitudes and actions. Person B thinks it's the Christian thing to forgive them anyway – and says so. Nevertheless, the forgiveness on the part of person B may be genuine but with the unrepentant attitude of person A – the feeling of forgiveness is frustrated, any signs of reconciliation are just going through the motions – issues are left unresolved with both persons.
First, this last page holds some of the best posts I have ever read here at GSC. Rascal - I think that last post put it all in perspective for me - and anyone with ears to hear. Thank you.
T-Bone and Eyes - I'm proud to know you and call you friends.
Lifted Up - thanks for your measured insight here on this thread. Sometimes it takes a fresh set of eyes to see through the emotion - you do that very well.
Johniam - I know you don't look for kudos - but I agree with Eyes on your last post - it was one of the most honest posts I have seen from you.
Now - for my point:
We sometimes forget that in Genesis after God was done with everything, including Adam and Eve - he said, "It is very good."
It is very good. The whole package. Man, woman, emotions, individual thought - all of it is very good. He said this even though He knew they (we) would not obey Him.
The "problem of emotions." I say this with the greatest amount of sarcasm. Emotions are held in contempt on a regular basis. The "get over it" and "just deal with it" crowd seems to gather whenever they are tired of talking about something. This doesn't only happen here at the cafe.
As Eyes said, sometimes the cry to get over it is made because the person crying out is just too loud, too emotional, too anything that the listener isn't ready to deal with.
I have witnessed a father spank his daughter - only to then shout at her, "GET OVER IT!" when she cried too long and too loud. I have witnessed the same man emotionally abuse his wife, only to ask, "How long are you going to let this ruin your life? A day? A week? A month? Just how long? When are you going to get over it? I have." Obviously, in this case the cry to move on was to alleviate guilt on his part.
Telling someone to move on is not the same as helping someone to move on. In the cases sited above, the man could have comforted his child and wife. He could have done many other things, but self-preservation and his own guilt prevailed.
Emotions drive us to do things our logic would never consider. Emotions are responsible for medical advancements, scientific discoveries, and acts of heroism. How many times does an act of heroism get described as, "That was stupid! - but I'm sure glad you did it!"
Yes, there is a flip side to all of this - emotions can be out of control and be the cause of unjust acts as well. Wars, murder, evil acts all stem from negative emotions.
Controlling one's emotions really is not as necessary as building one's character, IMHO.
I guess my point is that if God was able to finish His work and proclaim it "very good" - emotions and all, perhaps we should not be in such a hurry to condemn emotional responses.
I heard several teachings to the effect that God has a very small agenda - that of salvation. Everyhing else is just what He has to endure because of our sin nature. I used to buy that. Now I look at things a different way. It's hard to put into words here - and I've already made some statements that I'm sure will be misread and picked apart. BUT - I now tend to believe that God built mankind to be successful in everything. That would have to include thinking outside the box and learning from failure.
Sorry for the rambling post... I suspect someone will bring it back to the topic.
Sorry for the rambling post... I suspect someone will bring it back to the topic.
Actually you are not off topic. The topic is "getting over it". What exactly is "it"? Why does one dwell on or keep repeating "it"?
"It" of course is an event that can be verbal, physical or just perceived hence it can be factual for some and not for others, depending upon perception. The interpretation of all events in the world are reletive to an individual's perception of them. So if two people endure "it" and one gets over "it" and the other continues to talk about "it" then is one wrong and the other not? Absolutely not!
Emotions are part of our thinking process – how we understand/interpret an experience and often provide an impetus to take action. In II Corinthians 7:11 we find true repentance cannot occur apart from the sinner understanding what they did was wrong and feeling genuine sorrow over sin.
Exactly! So these emotions help determine how long "it" is a problem.
Controlling one's emotions really is not as necessary as building one's character, IMHO.
I think that people need to have emotions that they can control, but not in the manner that twi taught. A person needs to be able to not let his emotions rule him but rather allow them to work within him to make him a better person. Certainly one must control the destructive emotions like anger and hate, but the "clingy" emotions like love can be just as devastating. Depending upon how strongly they are expressed and who or what they are expressed to. Kinda like what Dooj said.
In the end IMO "it is very good" when we manage to reach a balance that allows us to truly keep His commandments. Which of course includes being weary of false prophets and teachers.
quote: As with the horses, my lack of dismissal of twi`s harmfull actions....it isn`t about being vindictive, it isn`t being mean spirited, it isn`t even mental instability that prevents me from forgiving, forgetting, and moving on. As with the family, it is a sense of integrity, duty, and obligation that motivates, and will continue to inspire me to educate people of the dangers, and warn the unwarey.
To do anything else would be negligent. For someone to require that I forgive, forget, and move on in either situation would be irresponsible , unkind, and have possibly tragic consequences.
I hope that explains my position better.
OK. You want to warn people. I guess where the analogy stops is that, with the horses, there is a very real potential danger in the near future, but with TWI, VP is dead, LCM has been "put out to pasture" , and most of us here, especially the regular posters, are not likely to ever go back to TWI, so what you call educating I may call gossip, and I don't see what this so called warning will prevent. I dunno.
quote: Emotions drive us to do things our logic would never consider. Emotions are responsible for medical advancements, scientific discoveries, and acts of heroism. How many times does an act of heroism get described as, "That was stupid! - but I'm sure glad you did it!"
Yes, there is a flip side to all of this - emotions can be out of control and be the cause of unjust acts as well. Wars, murder, evil acts all stem from negative emotions.
Controlling one's emotions really is not as necessary as building one's character, IMHO
I think controlling emotions is necessary for building character. Character is having the strength to do what is right in the face of resistance. That resistance is usually in the form of your own or someone else's emotional input. How many times do we take the path of least resistance only to find it's also the path of most headaches? Stuff like that.
OK. You want to warn people. I guess where the analogy stops is that, with the horses, there is a very real potential danger in the near future, but with TWI, VP is dead, LCM has been "put out to pasture" , and most of us here, especially the regular posters, are not likely to ever go back to TWI, so what you call educating I may call gossip, and I don't see what this so called warning will prevent. I dunno.
New people (both newly out, innies and those from splinter groups) come by here all of the time Jiam... you know that... c'mon.
I have 15 years of experiences, ideas, desires that were stifled as unworthy or unspiritual. .....so many emotions that were stifled ...the fear of failing God, the terror of face meltings, the shame of constantly falling short in leaderships eyes...the quelling of the still small voice inside by running scripture retemories through your mind to quiet the horror when being required to submit ....so many unanswered questions....Why did they do this to us? Who were they? Why did we let them? How did I get fooled? Where was God? Where is he now? Why didn`t he care?
One by one as I examine each of these experiences, as I talk with other people who endured the same experiences....little by little I am finding answers that I can live with...that it wasn`t just me, or a lack of spirituality....As a group we are providing different pieces of the puzzle ...enabeling us all to see the bigger picture.
I am finding more and more of the *me* that I lost or hid during those years....and I don`t think that it is just me that experiences that here.
In requiring someone to forgive, forget, and move on, folks are denied the opportunity to reclaim some of what was lost.
I understand not wanting to hear it...heck my own spouse doesn`t...lol but that is simply how some of us process our experiences, aquire understanding, and grow stronger :)
"From this it is clear how much more cruel the pen may be than the sword."
From The Anatomy of Melancholy by Robert Burton (1621)
"Go on doing with your pen what in other times was done with the sword."
Written by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Thomas Paine (1796)
"Beneath the rule of men entirely great,
THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD."
From ActII of Richelieu (1839) by Edward Bulwer-Lytton
Yes, Wierwille is dead and can't "hurt" anyone personally, but the ideas he promoted live on in his written works and are rooted in the recesses of our psyches. That's why it is vital that , although we should learn to deal with the damages in our daily lives, it is important we never fool ourselves into thinking these things did not happen or that they can't happen again to us or to others. IMO
edited to note that I gleaned these quotes from "trivia-library.com"
I am finding more and more of the *me* that I lost or hid during those years....and I don`t think that it is just me that experiences that here.
In requiring someone to forgive, forget, and move on, folks are denied the opportunity to reclaim some of what was lost.
You are not the only one that is trying to find or revive the young one that was supressed or murdered in twi. But frankly those that try to tell me to "move on" just get the big "ignore" from me. I dont block their posts I just dont hear their words.
Exactly waysider. These ideas, these practices are still hurting people today.
Also...sometimes we ourselves don`t know why we do what we do....some of these ideas we aquired as teenagers and held them throughout our entire adult hood.
Behaviors that we never question, beliefs that we have held for so long that it doesn`t occur to us that they might be detrimental to us and others.
The onion analogy that has been used is so appropriate.
It is my opinion that when we forgive and forget, in the context of twi involvement, we fail to see past the first layer of experiences and beliefs..., and in truth I don`t believe we can move on...not really....I think that it can be stifling.
One doesn`t tend to change if one doesn`t see the need.
Thank you Eyes, I have now done that. I was of the opinion that I wasn`t afraid of these folks...to put them on ignore was to be a coward...I figured I could handle them, and whatever they said.
I didn`t take into account the damage that I was doing.
"From this it is clear how much more cruel the pen may be than the sword."
From The Anatomy of Melancholy by Robert Burton (1621)
"Go on doing with your pen what in other times was done with the sword."
Written by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Thomas Paine (1796)
"Beneath the rule of men entirely great,
THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD."
From ActII of Richelieu (1839) by Edward Bulwer-Lytton
Yes, Wierwille is dead and can't "hurt" anyone personally, but the ideas he promoted live on in his written works and are rooted in the recesses of our psyches. That's why it is vital that , although we should learn to deal with the damages in our daily lives, it is important we never fool ourselves into thinking these things did not happen or that they can't happen again to us or to others. IMO
edited to note that I gleaned these quotes from "trivia-library.com"
Thinking of emotions in the Bible, Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed their sick [Matthew 14: 14].
I just love this account of Jesus. He is our example of how to keep God's great commandment. To love God with all our hearts, our minds, our souls and our strength includes having compassion towards others. Jesus "felt compassion" towards total strangers. How much more did he feel towards those who were close to his heart? How much did he feel towards us whom he would never see in that mortal body?
And yet we who claim to be Christians, we who have this same Jesus as our primary example of a righteous walk with God, we bite and nip at each other, we deliberately hurt each other with our words, we minimize each others pain and feelings...and for what? Loyalty to a man? A man who at best did not walk a perfect walk as did our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and at worst was a despicable rapist who deliberately led the children of God astray.
Just as VP's life is often compared with the fruit of the spirit that is documented in Galatians 5 many of us could also find in our own lives a parallel with this verse:
Galatians 5:15:
But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another.
The example of Jesus is the walk of the spirit.
Galatians 5:16:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
The message seems clear....bite and devour one another = lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:24 & 25:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed the sick. Should we do less?
Love people where they are, not where you are.
I am not thinking of anyone in particular in this post. It just struck me when I reread T-Bone's post and I just had to write it down.
Thanks Eyes ... I may be old and a little slow...but I CAN be taught ...lol :)
I doubt very seriously if you are slow...and I would challenge the "old" thing as well. And I have never doubted your ability or desire to be taught.
Now me...well that is a different story. Lots of stuff tends to bounce off of my thick skull and my bones creak at night...well all the time...but I'm not slow. I can get my hover*und up to 40 mph...did some modifying with Harley!
And yet we who claim to be Christians, we who have this same Jesus as our primary example of a righteous walk with God, we bite and nip at each other, we deliberately hurt each other with our words, we minimize each others pain and feelings...and for what? Loyalty to a man? A man who at best did not walk a perfect walk as did our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and at worst was a despicable rapist who deliberately led the children of God astray.
Galatians 5:15:
But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another.
The example of Jesus is the walk of the spirit.
Galatians 5:16:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
The message seems clear....bite and devour one another = lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:24 & 25:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed the sick. Should we do less?
Love people where they are, not where you are.
Thanks Eyes! This post woke me up. I've been making some serious mistakes lately and this put them all in perspective.
For some reason I keep thinking about David when he was about to go into battle with Goliath. He felt so uncomfortable in the armour they tried to put on him. I can only imagine why... it must have been too big, too heavy, too cumbersome, too NOT HIM. Instead he chose what he knew - 5 smooth stones and a slingshot. When David finally battled Goliath it was totally him and his trust in God that went to do battle.
I know this isn't a battle here - but all too often I find myself trying to wear someone else's armour instead of sticking with what I know. I'm learning to move ahead with what I know and who I am, and I'm learning how to do that without fitting in someone else's idea of who and what I should be.
It's a lot easier to move on if you're not encumbered with someone else's baggage.
It was suggested to me that I read this thread and so I printed out the 65 page printer friendly version and just spent the good part of 2 hours reading it. I now know why the person suggested I read it.
And I must tell you that your example of growth and inner confidence and incredible strength will set many a heart free. Your life just since I joined the board could very easily be used as THE example of what can be obtained by way of freedom from bondage deliberately placed upon us while in twi.
Your response from JohnIAm of which was the most honest I have ever read from him was the kind of thing that gives us old timers (even though many of you are much older timers than me) a reason to continue to read. I see it as hope.
I think one of the biggest lies that was instilled and perpetuated is that if you leave you will be nothing, do nothing, amount to nothing, are a loser and will be in spiritual limbo for the rest of your life. They used fear, guilt, control and manipulation on you.
I was told many vicious things would happen to me if I left. When I still wouldn't give in and stay I was told that I would die if I left. Now, that made me down right mad! Anger is a great motivator but you also need to know when to put it down.
The lies just aren't true. I look at the 1000s of people who come here and see where they are at and what they do and it's wonderful. Leaving is actually just the beginning of the most amazing spiritual journey you can ever imagine or hope for.
The key now is learning to love yourself with Godly, sweet, tender love. They have taught you to not take care of yourself but to just listen to what they say and believe what they have told you to believe. But it's important that you start loving yourself, trusting yourself, listening to yourself and taking care of yourself. It's important that you listen to what you need and want.
Where people get in trouble is when they allow themselves to be put under the "covering" of another person. The only covering you need is God - that's all. You don't need "them" for you to thrive spiritually - you only need God. And we are here to support you too and that helps immensely.
And don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. With time you will see what you need to keep and what you need to get rid of.
A lie was instilled in your hearts, minds and spirits and it was exactly what it was - A LIE!!!! When you quit believing the lie you will begin to heal, prosper and find your way again and you can start "getting over it".
I must process things different than other people.
In 1978 a 4th corp rev told me and other people in way homes that if any of us ever left TWI the devil would beat the .... out of us. Never bothered me. Don't know if that guy has left or not, but truth is, the devil does like to beat up believers, and he did it to me a lot more before TWI than during and since.
I actually lost respect for that guy after he said that. It just felt like getting sent to the vice principal's office again
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rascal
I agree Lifted. *Forgive and forget* and *move on* in and of itself is not offensive. Heck, it is required in every day life to survive.... it is employed in friendship, at work, raising teenagers...in marriage, or you just plain don`t make it ... (we have an anniversary on monday so I wax nostalgic I guess) It is when it is used as a club to shut someone up....that it becomes cruel.
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rascal
My daughter and I train horses.
While working with them in the arena, anything can happen. Some bite, some kick, some will flat out run you ever if given the chance.
You can`t get mad, that is what happens when you train young horses. You can`t hold it against them, that is how they react to certain situations. You patiently encourage them in another direction ....if you are angry, they know it, if you are vindictive and punishing they don`t know why....You just watch them like a hawk to avoid getting hurt and move on.
No anger, no malice.....in a sense...you forgive and move on....every session of every day.
However IF...one day, you have a family that comes to the arena and greatly admires the pretty buckskin pony that you are training....they see nothing but the stunning color, are dazzled by the graceful movements as he is worked by an experienced rider....nothing will do but they have that pony for little bethany to show....
It would be extremely negligent to sell that pony KNOWING what you do... to that inexperienced family that only sees his good points, while you yourself are well aware that the pony has a propensity to bite, to buck, to kick your head in if given the right chance.
Now...I could sell the pony, and MAYBE the little girl wouldn`t get hurt too badly. Of course not...your responsibility would be to steer that family to the old placid dead broke mare, she isn`t pretty and she isn`t flashy, but that is exactly what that little girl needs to ride on.
Now, am I being vindictive towards the horse? Am I lacking in forgiveness? Have I failed to move on from the previous mistakes the horse has made in training?
No, as the person experienced with that particular horse, I am aware of the danger, I warn the inexperienced child to stay away from the back end, I don`t allow the child near the head unless I have a tight grip on his halter.
In short, I protect the innocent, the unwary. It isn`t because I can`t move past it, it isn`t because I hate the horse, it is because that is the responsible thing to do.
As angry as the family is over my refusal to sell...I won`t budge.
I have had a pony that was so dangerous, no amount of love, attention, or training made any difference....it was so nasty , so willing to attack children , that it needed to be destroyed...pure and simple.
I wouldn`t send it to the auction, knowing that her pretty color would sell her, and her small size guaranteed that it would be to a child....that I could pocket my money and never look back..Hey I got my mony...she is somebody elses problem now....To do this knowing that she would be bought for a child ... that the unwary, uninformed family might suffer tragedy was unthinkable.
As with the horses, my lack of dismissal of twi`s harmfull actions....it isn`t about being vindictive, it isn`t being mean spirited, it isn`t even mental instability that prevents me from forgiving, forgetting, and moving on. As with the family, it is a sense of integrity, duty, and obligation that motivates, and will continue to inspire me to educate people of the dangers, and warn the unwarey.
To do anything else would be negligent. For someone to require that I forgive, forget, and move on in either situation would be irresponsible , unkind, and have possibly tragic consequences.
I hope that explains my position better.
So, guys who want to, maligne all you wish. Go ahead, make up and assign rediculous motives for my adamant refusal to *forget and move on* all you please ...It is my hope, that derision and harassment will never deter me from what I see as my obligation and responsibility.
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Eyesopen
When I would hurt myself as a child, which I did quite often I would run home to my mommy crying profusely. Upon entering the house the first thing that my mom would say to me was "Quit crying you can't be hurt that bad." And nearly every time she said that she was correct. But when I cut the roof of my mouth off (the first time) in a freak accident she stopped saying that to me.
Mom wasn't using it as a club or in an effort to minimize my pain, she really didn't think that I could possibly hurt myself bad enough to warrant that much noise. She unfortunately learned otherwise and I learned not to cry over little things.
The point is, sometimes telling someone to "shut up and get over it" is a knee jerk reaction to hearing pain expressed in an audible way. Some people are uncomfortable "hearing" pain. Others just dont believe that people could be in any pain because of the actions of others. An attituded that "words dont hurt" is a common misconception of those that advocate the "get over it" point of view.
As you say "when it is used as a club to shut someone up" it can be cruel. But there can be more than one reason that the person wants another to "shut up". Often the pain that one is expressing hits "too close to home" on another, so instead of feeling this pain as well they insist that you shut up.
Anyway I think that there is more than one reason for saying "get over it". The forgive and forget teaching of twi was callous and promoted the exact opposite of what forgiveness was designed by God to accomplish. I think that God wanted us to forgive others so that we could be free of the burden of our anger or pain. They after all do not need the forgiveness of any human. If they have sinned they need God's forgiveness. But God exhorts us to forgive others as He for Christs' sake forgave us. Why? So we do not carry unnecessary emotional burdens and perhaps miss out on other blessings that the unforgiven one could have in our lives. (Like a family grudge...not like forgiving VP)
Those are some of my thoughts this morning.
Edi, that was a pair of amazing posts. Thank you.
John, I dont think that I have ever read such an honest post from you. Very enlightening.
Rascal, Congradulations on your anniversary!
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Oakspear
Well said Rascal
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Eyesopen
I heartily agree
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T-Bone
Nero, great thread…and don't think I've said this before so welcome to Grease Spot. I've been re-reading the first part of this thread several times – there's some great stuff to think about! For me the thing that stands out most is a mindset that suppresses feelings prevents folks from fully processing their experiences.
Thinking of emotions in the Bible, Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed their sick [Matthew 14: 14]. Of course, there's the mention of Jesus looking at the Pharisees in anger for their hardness of hearts toward the man with the withered hand. And maybe we could consider His healing the man's withered hand as shock therapy for their withered hearts – but if you wonder how the Pharisees felt after Jesus healed him – they only became more obstinate and unresponsive to the truth [Mark 3:1-6].
And when we read of Jesus cleansing the temple, making a scourge of cords, driving out those selling sheep and oxen, dumping out coins of the moneychangers and overturning tables – it doesn't say what He was feeling – but I bet it wasn't happy thoughts [John 2:17 refers to the zeal that consumed Him].
Emotions are part of our thinking process – how we understand/interpret an experience and often provide an impetus to take action. In II Corinthians 7:11 we find true repentance cannot occur apart from the sinner understanding what they did was wrong and feeling genuine sorrow over sin.
By encouraging the suppression of emotions, manipulators have an effective tool for altering the perception of experiences and motivation can be re-directed or diffused. People become puppets on strings, as manipulators deem which emotions are valid [which emotions are okay to act upon] or reduced to being human camcorders, taking in experiences like an emotionless piece of recording equipment. If emotional capacity were like a muscle – for a typical TWI follower it was atrophied.
If experiences are not fully processed by the individual – issues remain unresolved in the mind. Take for example a matter of forgiveness as you mentioned in your post. The point of forgiveness is reconciliation. You want person A and person B to resolve their differences and get back together. Person A is NOT genuinely sorry as indicated by their attitudes and actions. Person B thinks it's the Christian thing to forgive them anyway – and says so. Nevertheless, the forgiveness on the part of person B may be genuine but with the unrepentant attitude of person A – the feeling of forgiveness is frustrated, any signs of reconciliation are just going through the motions – issues are left unresolved with both persons.
Excellent posts, Rascal and Eyes Open!!!!! 
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doojable
Some thoughts here...
First, this last page holds some of the best posts I have ever read here at GSC. Rascal - I think that last post put it all in perspective for me - and anyone with ears to hear. Thank you.
T-Bone and Eyes - I'm proud to know you and call you friends.
Lifted Up - thanks for your measured insight here on this thread. Sometimes it takes a fresh set of eyes to see through the emotion - you do that very well.
Johniam - I know you don't look for kudos - but I agree with Eyes on your last post - it was one of the most honest posts I have seen from you.
Now - for my point:
We sometimes forget that in Genesis after God was done with everything, including Adam and Eve - he said, "It is very good."
It is very good. The whole package. Man, woman, emotions, individual thought - all of it is very good. He said this even though He knew they (we) would not obey Him.
The "problem of emotions." I say this with the greatest amount of sarcasm. Emotions are held in contempt on a regular basis. The "get over it" and "just deal with it" crowd seems to gather whenever they are tired of talking about something. This doesn't only happen here at the cafe.
As Eyes said, sometimes the cry to get over it is made because the person crying out is just too loud, too emotional, too anything that the listener isn't ready to deal with.
I have witnessed a father spank his daughter - only to then shout at her, "GET OVER IT!" when she cried too long and too loud. I have witnessed the same man emotionally abuse his wife, only to ask, "How long are you going to let this ruin your life? A day? A week? A month? Just how long? When are you going to get over it? I have." Obviously, in this case the cry to move on was to alleviate guilt on his part.
Telling someone to move on is not the same as helping someone to move on. In the cases sited above, the man could have comforted his child and wife. He could have done many other things, but self-preservation and his own guilt prevailed.
Emotions drive us to do things our logic would never consider. Emotions are responsible for medical advancements, scientific discoveries, and acts of heroism. How many times does an act of heroism get described as, "That was stupid! - but I'm sure glad you did it!"
Yes, there is a flip side to all of this - emotions can be out of control and be the cause of unjust acts as well. Wars, murder, evil acts all stem from negative emotions.
Controlling one's emotions really is not as necessary as building one's character, IMHO.
I guess my point is that if God was able to finish His work and proclaim it "very good" - emotions and all, perhaps we should not be in such a hurry to condemn emotional responses.
I heard several teachings to the effect that God has a very small agenda - that of salvation. Everyhing else is just what He has to endure because of our sin nature. I used to buy that. Now I look at things a different way. It's hard to put into words here - and I've already made some statements that I'm sure will be misread and picked apart. BUT - I now tend to believe that God built mankind to be successful in everything. That would have to include thinking outside the box and learning from failure.
Sorry for the rambling post... I suspect someone will bring it back to the topic.
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Eyesopen
Actually you are not off topic. The topic is "getting over it". What exactly is "it"? Why does one dwell on or keep repeating "it"?
"It" of course is an event that can be verbal, physical or just perceived hence it can be factual for some and not for others, depending upon perception. The interpretation of all events in the world are reletive to an individual's perception of them. So if two people endure "it" and one gets over "it" and the other continues to talk about "it" then is one wrong and the other not? Absolutely not!
Exactly! So these emotions help determine how long "it" is a problem.I think that people need to have emotions that they can control, but not in the manner that twi taught. A person needs to be able to not let his emotions rule him but rather allow them to work within him to make him a better person. Certainly one must control the destructive emotions like anger and hate, but the "clingy" emotions like love can be just as devastating. Depending upon how strongly they are expressed and who or what they are expressed to. Kinda like what Dooj said.
In the end IMO "it is very good" when we manage to reach a balance that allows us to truly keep His commandments. Which of course includes being weary of false prophets and teachers.
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johniam
quote: As with the horses, my lack of dismissal of twi`s harmfull actions....it isn`t about being vindictive, it isn`t being mean spirited, it isn`t even mental instability that prevents me from forgiving, forgetting, and moving on. As with the family, it is a sense of integrity, duty, and obligation that motivates, and will continue to inspire me to educate people of the dangers, and warn the unwarey.
To do anything else would be negligent. For someone to require that I forgive, forget, and move on in either situation would be irresponsible , unkind, and have possibly tragic consequences.
I hope that explains my position better.
OK. You want to warn people. I guess where the analogy stops is that, with the horses, there is a very real potential danger in the near future, but with TWI, VP is dead, LCM has been "put out to pasture"
, and most of us here, especially the regular posters, are not likely to ever go back to TWI, so what you call educating I may call gossip, and I don't see what this so called warning will prevent. I dunno.
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johniam
quote: Emotions drive us to do things our logic would never consider. Emotions are responsible for medical advancements, scientific discoveries, and acts of heroism. How many times does an act of heroism get described as, "That was stupid! - but I'm sure glad you did it!"
Yes, there is a flip side to all of this - emotions can be out of control and be the cause of unjust acts as well. Wars, murder, evil acts all stem from negative emotions.
Controlling one's emotions really is not as necessary as building one's character, IMHO
I think controlling emotions is necessary for building character. Character is having the strength to do what is right in the face of resistance. That resistance is usually in the form of your own or someone else's emotional input. How many times do we take the path of least resistance only to find it's also the path of most headaches? Stuff like that.
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Tom Strange
New people (both newly out, innies and those from splinter groups) come by here all of the time Jiam... you know that... c'mon.
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rascal
I have 15 years of experiences, ideas, desires that were stifled as unworthy or unspiritual. .....so many emotions that were stifled ...the fear of failing God, the terror of face meltings, the shame of constantly falling short in leaderships eyes...the quelling of the still small voice inside by running scripture retemories through your mind to quiet the horror when being required to submit ....so many unanswered questions....Why did they do this to us? Who were they? Why did we let them? How did I get fooled? Where was God? Where is he now? Why didn`t he care?
One by one as I examine each of these experiences, as I talk with other people who endured the same experiences....little by little I am finding answers that I can live with...that it wasn`t just me, or a lack of spirituality....As a group we are providing different pieces of the puzzle ...enabeling us all to see the bigger picture.
I am finding more and more of the *me* that I lost or hid during those years....and I don`t think that it is just me that experiences that here.
In requiring someone to forgive, forget, and move on, folks are denied the opportunity to reclaim some of what was lost.
I understand not wanting to hear it...heck my own spouse doesn`t...lol but that is simply how some of us process our experiences, aquire understanding, and grow stronger :)
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waysider
Euripedes, who died in 406 BC, said:
"The tongue is mightier than the blade."
"Many wearing rapiers are afraid of goosequills."
Spoken by Rosencrantz in Hamlet (Aprox. 1600)
"From this it is clear how much more cruel the pen may be than the sword."
From The Anatomy of Melancholy by Robert Burton (1621)
"Go on doing with your pen what in other times was done with the sword."
Written by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Thomas Paine (1796)
"Beneath the rule of men entirely great,
THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD."
From ActII of Richelieu (1839) by Edward Bulwer-Lytton
Yes, Wierwille is dead and can't "hurt" anyone personally, but the ideas he promoted live on in his written works and are rooted in the recesses of our psyches. That's why it is vital that , although we should learn to deal with the damages in our daily lives, it is important we never fool ourselves into thinking these things did not happen or that they can't happen again to us or to others. IMO
edited to note that I gleaned these quotes from "trivia-library.com"
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Eyesopen
You are not the only one that is trying to find or revive the young one that was supressed or murdered in twi. But frankly those that try to tell me to "move on" just get the big "ignore" from me. I dont block their posts I just dont hear their words.
Waysider...well said!
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rascal
Exactly waysider. These ideas, these practices are still hurting people today.
Also...sometimes we ourselves don`t know why we do what we do....some of these ideas we aquired as teenagers and held them throughout our entire adult hood.
Behaviors that we never question, beliefs that we have held for so long that it doesn`t occur to us that they might be detrimental to us and others.
The onion analogy that has been used is so appropriate.
It is my opinion that when we forgive and forget, in the context of twi involvement, we fail to see past the first layer of experiences and beliefs..., and in truth I don`t believe we can move on...not really....I think that it can be stifling.
One doesn`t tend to change if one doesn`t see the need.
Thank you Eyes, I have now done that. I was of the opinion that I wasn`t afraid of these folks...to put them on ignore was to be a coward...I figured I could handle them, and whatever they said.
I didn`t take into account the damage that I was doing.
Peace is much better.
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T-Bone
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Eyesopen
I just love this account of Jesus. He is our example of how to keep God's great commandment. To love God with all our hearts, our minds, our souls and our strength includes having compassion towards others. Jesus "felt compassion" towards total strangers. How much more did he feel towards those who were close to his heart? How much did he feel towards us whom he would never see in that mortal body?
And yet we who claim to be Christians, we who have this same Jesus as our primary example of a righteous walk with God, we bite and nip at each other, we deliberately hurt each other with our words, we minimize each others pain and feelings...and for what? Loyalty to a man? A man who at best did not walk a perfect walk as did our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and at worst was a despicable rapist who deliberately led the children of God astray.
Just as VP's life is often compared with the fruit of the spirit that is documented in Galatians 5 many of us could also find in our own lives a parallel with this verse:
Galatians 5:15:
But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another.
The example of Jesus is the walk of the spirit.
Galatians 5:16:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
The message seems clear....bite and devour one another = lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:24 & 25:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Jesus seeing a large crowd felt compassion and healed the sick. Should we do less?
Love people where they are, not where you are.
I am not thinking of anyone in particular in this post. It just struck me when I reread T-Bone's post and I just had to write it down.
BTW T-Bone that was a great post, thanks!
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Eyesopen
You only say this because Shrek III just came out.
Boy aint that the truth!You have no idea how pleased I am to see the growth that is occuring in your life just in the past few days in this thread.
Peace of mind, peace with God...yes you are right it is much better!
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rascal
Thanks Eyes ... I may be old and a little slow...but I CAN be taught ...lol :)
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Eyesopen
I doubt very seriously if you are slow...and I would challenge the "old" thing as well. And I have never doubted your ability or desire to be taught.
Now me...well that is a different story. Lots of stuff tends to bounce off of my thick skull and my bones creak at night...well all the time...but I'm not slow. I can get my hover*und up to 40 mph...did some modifying with Harley!
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doojable
Thanks Eyes! This post woke me up. I've been making some serious mistakes lately and this put them all in perspective.
For some reason I keep thinking about David when he was about to go into battle with Goliath. He felt so uncomfortable in the armour they tried to put on him. I can only imagine why... it must have been too big, too heavy, too cumbersome, too NOT HIM. Instead he chose what he knew - 5 smooth stones and a slingshot. When David finally battled Goliath it was totally him and his trust in God that went to do battle.
I know this isn't a battle here - but all too often I find myself trying to wear someone else's armour instead of sticking with what I know. I'm learning to move ahead with what I know and who I am, and I'm learning how to do that without fitting in someone else's idea of who and what I should be.
It's a lot easier to move on if you're not encumbered with someone else's baggage.
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ChattyKathy
Rascal,
It was suggested to me that I read this thread and so I printed out the 65 page printer friendly version and just spent the good part of 2 hours reading it. I now know why the person suggested I read it.
And I must tell you that your example of growth and inner confidence and incredible strength will set many a heart free. Your life just since I joined the board could very easily be used as THE example of what can be obtained by way of freedom from bondage deliberately placed upon us while in twi.
Your response from JohnIAm of which was the most honest I have ever read from him was the kind of thing that gives us old timers (even though many of you are much older timers than me) a reason to continue to read. I see it as hope.
Kathy
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Edi
I think one of the biggest lies that was instilled and perpetuated is that if you leave you will be nothing, do nothing, amount to nothing, are a loser and will be in spiritual limbo for the rest of your life. They used fear, guilt, control and manipulation on you.
I was told many vicious things would happen to me if I left. When I still wouldn't give in and stay I was told that I would die if I left. Now, that made me down right mad! Anger is a great motivator but you also need to know when to put it down.
The lies just aren't true. I look at the 1000s of people who come here and see where they are at and what they do and it's wonderful. Leaving is actually just the beginning of the most amazing spiritual journey you can ever imagine or hope for.
The key now is learning to love yourself with Godly, sweet, tender love. They have taught you to not take care of yourself but to just listen to what they say and believe what they have told you to believe. But it's important that you start loving yourself, trusting yourself, listening to yourself and taking care of yourself. It's important that you listen to what you need and want.
Where people get in trouble is when they allow themselves to be put under the "covering" of another person. The only covering you need is God - that's all. You don't need "them" for you to thrive spiritually - you only need God. And we are here to support you too and that helps immensely.
And don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. With time you will see what you need to keep and what you need to get rid of.
A lie was instilled in your hearts, minds and spirits and it was exactly what it was - A LIE!!!! When you quit believing the lie you will begin to heal, prosper and find your way again and you can start "getting over it".
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johniam
I must process things different than other people.
In 1978 a 4th corp rev told me and other people in way homes that if any of us ever left TWI the devil would beat the .... out of us. Never bothered me. Don't know if that guy has left or not, but truth is, the devil does like to beat up believers, and he did it to me a lot more before TWI than during and since.
I actually lost respect for that guy after he said that. It just felt like getting sent to the vice principal's office again
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