Yeah, Waysider & Rascal, TWI's toxic doctrines and twisted mindset are potent – even after folks leave it takes some effort to look inward and smoke out residual TWI-crud. Some folks do need to get over the compassion-less and heavy-handed approach with people, along with the tendency to minimize sin, deny the consequences of sin and ignore culpability…It's a telltale sign of TWI-poisoning when serious moral issues are downgraded or blame is shifted to the victim - in order to preserve the man of god persona of vpw.
If you relate the unconscionable acts of vpw to an outsider [someone who is not enamored with vpw] your typical responses would be disgust, outrage, a call for justice. But when you tarnish someone's idol you jeopardize their belief system – their only defense is willful ignorance…and that's a real big thing to get over right there…pride…that you've been deceived by a cult leader
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
quote: But when you tarnish someone's idol you jeopardize their belief system – their only defense is willful ignorance…and that's a real big thing to get over right there…pride…that you've been deceived by a cult leader
So nothing VP taught in PFAL was Christian? Romans 10:9 isn't how to get saved? None of us are Christian if TWI was the only teaching we ever received? If that is your conclusion, then it is you who is guilty of 'willful ignorance'.
Come on John, what good is the recitation of romans or any other scripture a hundred times, if your life continues to exhibit fruit of the flesh? There are very evil people that know scriptures and have operated under the lable of christian. How else WOULD a false prophet operate?? Jesus said there were going to be folks who proficied in his name, who would arrive, claiming to know him, expecting entrance into heaven.....but would be told to depart.
I`d say that if we don`t manifest the specific fruit that Jesus listed as that which would identify us to one another, then our understanding of the scripture must be flawed.
That isn`t willfull ignorance, that is waking up and examining the teachings of a man who`s actions have clearly labled him of the flesh.
It is pretty funny you of all people would use that term.
Love God and love your neighbor, That`s what is important.
quote:what good is romans or any other scripture if your life continues to exhibit fruit of the flesh?
So you think that to become a Christian you now have no flesh??? I think I saw a picture of you on one of the weenie roast threads. If that isn't flesh, then what is it? Memorex?
What on EARTH are you talking about John? I am at a total loss as to what you might be referring to. :blink:
It is completely dishonest of you if you are indicating that I in any way exhibited a single one of those behaviors listed in galatians at a weenie roast. I was camping with kids for goodness sakes.
As a matter of fact, I don`t believe that one does manifest the fruit of the flesh if you have had the life impacting change on the inside of the new birth. Genuine christians simply don`t. I think that we are just decieving ourselves into believing that the fruit we manifest is not important.
It`s isn`t something that you strive to attain, it is simply a result of who and what you are....
Have you thought about why you would need to lie, to assault peoples character, slander a persons integrity like this is some sort of street brawl, and who ever gets their licks in the fasted and hardest and knocks their oponent out is the winner?
Guy, you are not acting like a brother.
Please prove your allegations of misconduct, or retract your statement John.
…And speaking of toxic TWI-residue, it's the vestiges of vpw's moral depravity lingering in the hearts of his defenders that corrupts sound judgment and sedates the conscience. Quite an insidious legacy vpw bequeathed to his fans – to treat the precious blood of Jesus as nothing more than a whitewash for unrepented sin. vpw had such a Gnostic flair for deeming the flesh of little consequence and a flagrant disregard for the moral demands of Scripture.
I Peter 2: 16 NIV
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
I Corinthians 15: 33, 34 NIV
33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Of course I've heard different interpretations of this section but, I wonder -- For the vast majority of members of GS (maybe yourself included) if the place of having been "enlightened" and "tasted the goodness of the word of God" happened to have been at the dinner table of TWI. If not --- then where did these things take place?
quote: Please prove your allegations of misconduct, or retract your statement John.
God you are dense. I made no allegations of misconduct other than saying that you wrongly divide Gal. 5. Look up the word 'flesh' in a dictionary. None of the definitions are strictly evil. One definition is the human body as opposed to the soul. That is biblically inaccurate because scripture refers to the carnal mind, the mind of the flesh (Rom. 8). The accurate definition would be the human body and all it came with, as opposed to the spirit of God, which no one is born with.
The flesh, by that definition, is not pure evil, just not subject to God (Rom. 8:7). In order to fix that you just use that carnal mind and say, "Yes, I confess that I am a sinner and that I deserve to die for even one sin I've done, and you, God, have sent Jesus the Christ as full payment for all sins I've done. Thank you. Yes, I accept Jesus Christ as payment for my sins and I will do my best to represent him on earth as you, God, would have me to do." That's all there is to it. Easy.
But religion makes it difficult. They want to control people by controlling their flesh. God's sending Jesus the Christ as a once and for all offering and sacrifice for sin will never be good enough for religion. Then they'd have to love people rather than control them. Who ever heard of such nonsense. Yet, God still committed the word and ministry of reconcilliation to us mortals. Sadly, you buy into religion. You think we're saved by works.
When you conclude that VPs alleged sins automatically mean that he never was a Christian, you are truly judging after the flesh.
Dense I may be, but personal character and integrity are very important to me.
John YOU said *So you think that to become a Christian you now have no flesh??? I think I saw a picture of you on one of the weenie roast threads. If that isn't flesh, then what is it? Memorex*?
I repeat PLEASE prove your allegations concerning ANY misconduct (as in acts of the flesh as per the topic of conversation) by me at a weenie roast, or retract your statement.
Also...you misrepresent my pov....I do NOT nor have I ever say that christians don`t sin...or that wierwilles sin means he was never christian. Not all sin is fruit of the flesh...though all fruit of the flesh is sin. Big difference.
In addition to what T-Bone said to requote what Dooj said:
Galatians 5:13-18
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:11-14
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:15 & 23
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What the Bible has to say seems pretty clear to me. If you are born again you need to act like it. You need to stop doing what you once did and start doing things for God and "present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God".
Obviously even the born again are capable of being jerks. And obviously they are capable of sining. If they were not then most of the verses that we have all read and some that are quoted here on this thread would not be applicable to those that are born again.
The point of these verses in Romans is not only that we simply do not sin and then ask forgiveness over and over again, but that we recognize the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made so that we could be without sin. God makes a point of telling us that we can and should start a new life to go with our new spirit and our new righteousness.
It seems fairly clear that if we continue to live in our "old man" ways then we would fall into the problems outlined in Galatians. As Rascal pointed out if you keep the commandments then you happily avoid all of these pitfalls.
Larry: Let's not do the "What I learned in PFAL" thing again....Ok? Please?
<snip> Larry: Let's not do the "What I learned in PFAL" thing again....Ok? Please?
I don't see why my point is one that someone should take offense to.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
As I understand the above verse we are not only to continue in the things we have learned but, to remember where we learned them from. If you've been enlightened and tasted the "good word of God" then what's so hard about acknowledging and giving credit to the source of your enlightenment?
Does the above verse come from PFAL or does it come from the Bible?
Enlightenment came after leaving twi pure and simple.
Knowledge was aquired, sure...but it didn`t mean a thing as far as enlightenment, that came after escaping the bondage of twi.
Well, you may be an exception to the rule. But for myself and many others I imagine the opposite is true. Why else would so many have spent so much of their time witnessing to others if they didn't feel that they were enlightened and "tasted the good word of God?"
Edited to say....John, you can`t prove your allegation of immoral conduct by me at a weenie roasty or any other event, because it never happened pure and simple. Please make sure of your facts before issuing such slanderous accusations first, as my character and integrity are of utmost importance to me.
Your knowledge aquired in twi, the scriptures parroted, your beliefs held, does not make one a genuine christian, friend.
I don't see why my point is one that someone should take offense to.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
As I understand the above verse we are not only to continue in the things we have learned but, to remember where we learned them from. If you've been enlightened and tasted the "good word of God" then what's so hard about acknowledging and giving credit to the source of your enlightenment?
Does the above verse come from PFAL or does it come from the Bible?
I was not offended, I just didn't want this thread to go there... :blink:
I do not disagree with you when you say that we should acknowledge where we learned or received our "enlightnement". But let's look at that verse in its context...
2 Timothy 3:10-17
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Notice that Paul was a full example of the gospel of Christ. He did not just speak it or expound it he lived it. He states that those that "live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution". He knows this because he lived godly. His life was a living example of the gospel of Christ that he knew. (Certainly not a perfect example, but a good one)
I think that this is an important distinction. Anyone can quote scripture and call their interpretation of that scripture the truth. But it takes a real Christian to walk a life that is godly IN Christ Jesus. And this person...I would acknowledge because their walk would have "assured" to me that the gospel of Christ really works and is alive and real.
Our "enlightenment" is not limited to only the scripture that we have heard or any teaching of the Bible at all. Our "enlightenment" occures when we see what we have learned in the scripture demonstrated in real life. Paul did not encourage them to "continue" in teaching scripture only...he encouraged them to continue in all that they had learned and been assured of.
That is your opinion, and your privilege to hold Larry. However, the way that you see fit to treat people here does not inspire me with confidence in your pov as a christian or a brother...shrug
Eyes Open, good to mention that here. PFAL hosts the most virulent strain of vpw-crud…which is parasitic in nature - leeching off the work of others [plagiarism], adulterating Scripture [twisting Bible passages to justify moral depravity, promote unsound doctrines and manipulate people], ultimately ensnaring folks in a life-sucking organization……That’s not enlightenment - it’s entanglement.
I think that this is an important distinction. Anyone can quote scripture and call their interpretation of that scripture the truth. But it takes a real Christian to walk a life that is godly IN Christ Jesus. And this person...I would acknowledge because their walk would have "assured" to me that the gospel of Christ really works and is alive and real.
Our "enlightenment" is not limited to only the scripture that we have heard or any teaching of the Bible at all. Our "enlightenment" occures when we see what we have learned in the scripture demonstrated in real life. Paul did not encourage them to "continue" in teaching scripture only...he encouraged them to continue in all that they had learned and been assured of.
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T-Bone
Yeah, Waysider & Rascal, TWI's toxic doctrines and twisted mindset are potent – even after folks leave it takes some effort to look inward and smoke out residual TWI-crud. Some folks do need to get over the compassion-less and heavy-handed approach with people, along with the tendency to minimize sin, deny the consequences of sin and ignore culpability…It's a telltale sign of TWI-poisoning when serious moral issues are downgraded or blame is shifted to the victim - in order to preserve the man of god persona of vpw.
If you relate the unconscionable acts of vpw to an outsider [someone who is not enamored with vpw] your typical responses would be disgust, outrage, a call for justice. But when you tarnish someone's idol you jeopardize their belief system – their only defense is willful ignorance…and that's a real big thing to get over right there…pride…that you've been deceived by a cult leader
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doojable
For reference:
Galatians 5:13-26
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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johniam
quote: I am sorry that they appear to say that which you do not wish to believe.
So now you're saying that the bible doesn't mean what it says?
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johniam
quote: But when you tarnish someone's idol you jeopardize their belief system – their only defense is willful ignorance…and that's a real big thing to get over right there…pride…that you've been deceived by a cult leader
So nothing VP taught in PFAL was Christian? Romans 10:9 isn't how to get saved? None of us are Christian if TWI was the only teaching we ever received? If that is your conclusion, then it is you who is guilty of 'willful ignorance'.
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cman
I see, so you do Romans 10:9 and everything is fine huh.
It's your get out of jail free card like 1John about confessing sins.
So confess and do it over and over and over again.
Sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess..............
INSANITY
What vp did was not a confession of Jesus is Lord.
It was a confession of vp is Lord.
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rascal
Come on John, what good is the recitation of romans or any other scripture a hundred times, if your life continues to exhibit fruit of the flesh? There are very evil people that know scriptures and have operated under the lable of christian. How else WOULD a false prophet operate?? Jesus said there were going to be folks who proficied in his name, who would arrive, claiming to know him, expecting entrance into heaven.....but would be told to depart.
I`d say that if we don`t manifest the specific fruit that Jesus listed as that which would identify us to one another, then our understanding of the scripture must be flawed.
That isn`t willfull ignorance, that is waking up and examining the teachings of a man who`s actions have clearly labled him of the flesh.
It is pretty funny you of all people would use that term.
Love God and love your neighbor, That`s what is important.
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johniam
quote:what good is romans or any other scripture if your life continues to exhibit fruit of the flesh?
So you think that to become a Christian you now have no flesh??? I think I saw a picture of you on one of the weenie roast threads. If that isn't flesh, then what is it? Memorex?
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rascal
What on EARTH are you talking about John? I am at a total loss as to what you might be referring to. :blink:
It is completely dishonest of you if you are indicating that I in any way exhibited a single one of those behaviors listed in galatians at a weenie roast. I was camping with kids for goodness sakes.
As a matter of fact, I don`t believe that one does manifest the fruit of the flesh if you have had the life impacting change on the inside of the new birth. Genuine christians simply don`t. I think that we are just decieving ourselves into believing that the fruit we manifest is not important.
It`s isn`t something that you strive to attain, it is simply a result of who and what you are....
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rascal
Have you thought about why you would need to lie, to assault peoples character, slander a persons integrity like this is some sort of street brawl, and who ever gets their licks in the fasted and hardest and knocks their oponent out is the winner?
Guy, you are not acting like a brother.
Please prove your allegations of misconduct, or retract your statement John.
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T-Bone
…And speaking of toxic TWI-residue, it's the vestiges of vpw's moral depravity lingering in the hearts of his defenders that corrupts sound judgment and sedates the conscience. Quite an insidious legacy vpw bequeathed to his fans – to treat the precious blood of Jesus as nothing more than a whitewash for unrepented sin. vpw had such a Gnostic flair for deeming the flesh of little consequence and a flagrant disregard for the moral demands of Scripture.
I Peter 2: 16 NIV
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
I Corinthians 15: 33, 34 NIV
33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
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Larry N Moore
Of course I've heard different interpretations of this section but, I wonder -- For the vast majority of members of GS (maybe yourself included) if the place of having been "enlightened" and "tasted the goodness of the word of God" happened to have been at the dinner table of TWI. If not --- then where did these things take place?
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johniam
quote: Please prove your allegations of misconduct, or retract your statement John.
God you are dense. I made no allegations of misconduct other than saying that you wrongly divide Gal. 5. Look up the word 'flesh' in a dictionary. None of the definitions are strictly evil. One definition is the human body as opposed to the soul. That is biblically inaccurate because scripture refers to the carnal mind, the mind of the flesh (Rom. 8). The accurate definition would be the human body and all it came with, as opposed to the spirit of God, which no one is born with.
The flesh, by that definition, is not pure evil, just not subject to God (Rom. 8:7). In order to fix that you just use that carnal mind and say, "Yes, I confess that I am a sinner and that I deserve to die for even one sin I've done, and you, God, have sent Jesus the Christ as full payment for all sins I've done. Thank you. Yes, I accept Jesus Christ as payment for my sins and I will do my best to represent him on earth as you, God, would have me to do." That's all there is to it. Easy.
But religion makes it difficult. They want to control people by controlling their flesh. God's sending Jesus the Christ as a once and for all offering and sacrifice for sin will never be good enough for religion. Then they'd have to love people rather than control them. Who ever heard of such nonsense. Yet, God still committed the word and ministry of reconcilliation to us mortals. Sadly, you buy into religion. You think we're saved by works.
When you conclude that VPs alleged sins automatically mean that he never was a Christian, you are truly judging after the flesh.
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rascal
Dense I may be, but personal character and integrity are very important to me.
John YOU said *So you think that to become a Christian you now have no flesh??? I think I saw a picture of you on one of the weenie roast threads. If that isn't flesh, then what is it? Memorex*?
I repeat PLEASE prove your allegations concerning ANY misconduct (as in acts of the flesh as per the topic of conversation) by me at a weenie roast, or retract your statement.
Also...you misrepresent my pov....I do NOT nor have I ever say that christians don`t sin...or that wierwilles sin means he was never christian. Not all sin is fruit of the flesh...though all fruit of the flesh is sin. Big difference.
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Eyesopen
In addition to what T-Bone said to requote what Dooj said:
Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:11-14
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:15 & 23
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What the Bible has to say seems pretty clear to me. If you are born again you need to act like it. You need to stop doing what you once did and start doing things for God and "present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God".
Obviously even the born again are capable of being jerks. And obviously they are capable of sining. If they were not then most of the verses that we have all read and some that are quoted here on this thread would not be applicable to those that are born again.
The point of these verses in Romans is not only that we simply do not sin and then ask forgiveness over and over again, but that we recognize the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made so that we could be without sin. God makes a point of telling us that we can and should start a new life to go with our new spirit and our new righteousness.
It seems fairly clear that if we continue to live in our "old man" ways then we would fall into the problems outlined in Galatians. As Rascal pointed out if you keep the commandments then you happily avoid all of these pitfalls.
Larry: Let's not do the "What I learned in PFAL" thing again....Ok? Please?
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Larry N Moore
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
As I understand the above verse we are not only to continue in the things we have learned but, to remember where we learned them from. If you've been enlightened and tasted the "good word of God" then what's so hard about acknowledging and giving credit to the source of your enlightenment?
Does the above verse come from PFAL or does it come from the Bible?
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rascal
Enlightenment came after leaving twi pure and simple.
Knowledge was aquired, sure...but it didn`t mean a thing as far as enlightenment, that came after escaping the bondage of twi.
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Larry N Moore
Well, you may be an exception to the rule. But for myself and many others I imagine the opposite is true. Why else would so many have spent so much of their time witnessing to others if they didn't feel that they were enlightened and "tasted the good word of God?"
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rascal
Edited to say....John, you can`t prove your allegation of immoral conduct by me at a weenie roasty or any other event, because it never happened pure and simple. Please make sure of your facts before issuing such slanderous accusations first, as my character and integrity are of utmost importance to me.
Your knowledge aquired in twi, the scriptures parroted, your beliefs held, does not make one a genuine christian, friend.
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rascal
Larry, I don`t think that many people were really enlightened in twi....I think that we believed the hype....shrug
I think that we witnessed because we were told that was what God required in order to grow spiritually.
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Larry N Moore
That would be your opinion, of course. Mine is different and is based on the conversations I've had with uncountable people.
I (and I believe many others did) witnessed to others because we loved God and His word and wanted to share it with others.
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Eyesopen
I was not offended, I just didn't want this thread to go there... :blink:
I do not disagree with you when you say that we should acknowledge where we learned or received our "enlightnement". But let's look at that verse in its context...
2 Timothy 3:10-17
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Notice that Paul was a full example of the gospel of Christ. He did not just speak it or expound it he lived it. He states that those that "live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution". He knows this because he lived godly. His life was a living example of the gospel of Christ that he knew. (Certainly not a perfect example, but a good one)
I think that this is an important distinction. Anyone can quote scripture and call their interpretation of that scripture the truth. But it takes a real Christian to walk a life that is godly IN Christ Jesus. And this person...I would acknowledge because their walk would have "assured" to me that the gospel of Christ really works and is alive and real.
Our "enlightenment" is not limited to only the scripture that we have heard or any teaching of the Bible at all. Our "enlightenment" occures when we see what we have learned in the scripture demonstrated in real life. Paul did not encourage them to "continue" in teaching scripture only...he encouraged them to continue in all that they had learned and been assured of.
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rascal
That is your opinion, and your privilege to hold Larry. However, the way that you see fit to treat people here does not inspire me with confidence in your pov as a christian or a brother...shrug
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T-Bone
Eyes Open, good to mention that here. PFAL hosts the most virulent strain of vpw-crud…which is parasitic in nature - leeching off the work of others [plagiarism], adulterating Scripture [twisting Bible passages to justify moral depravity, promote unsound doctrines and manipulate people], ultimately ensnaring folks in a life-sucking organization……That’s not enlightenment - it’s entanglement.
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rascal
Well said Eyes.
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