quote: So why is it so hard for some people to deal with this? Reasons? Speculations? Inquiring minds would like to know!
"Get over it" has been tweaked into "get over yourself". Nothing wrong with feeling pain or pleasure, but there is a point where dwelling on painful past experiences is bad for you. Then the pain becomes your whole identity. That old Elton John line comes to mind.....'Levon wears his war wound like a crown'. (this is my pain; ain't it purty?)
It is THOSE people who need to get over it (themselves).
I think this is a discussion about how we, as individuals swallowed yet another "catch-phrase" in a very manipulative paradigm, and incorporated it into how we lived and related to others, in our, and their "pain or pleasure". The value of the discussion, IMO, is not whether the phrase ever had/has any virtue or merit, but in pointing out how such a phrase/mandate prompted a shift in thought processes that perhaps rendered a shut-down of conscience.
I'm quoting this post in response to a rather nice post by Son of the Master over here because it serves as a perfect example of what this thread is about.
Somebody sounds bitter!!!Like Don Henley sings about " Get over It!" Jerry Mac p/s What did you do with your clergy seal?Nevermind, i just read page one, I think you're full of #@^%
Welcome to the Cafe, jerrymcsherry, may I suggest that you look around a bit and get to know us and the place before you start swinging that sword of judgmentalism at folks.
Also, here are a couple of threads that are "must reads" for new folks, especially ones who stomp in here like a bull in a china shop:
P.S. The "Greasespot Gems" thread you posted on is for recording excellent posts by others, not a place for you to put what you think is great about TWI. We have plenty of threads devoted to that already. Of course, if you had actually read the thread, or at least the first post in it, you would have known that.
quote: Welcome to the Cafe, jerrymcsherry, may I suggest that you look around a bit and get to know us and the place before you start swinging that sword of judgmentalism at folks.
Also, here are a couple of threads that are "must reads" for new folks, especially ones who stomp in here like a bull in a china shop:
New Arrival Guide to the Cafe
What is The Way?
P.S. The "Greasespot Gems" thread you posted on is for recording excellent posts by others, not a place for you to put what you think is great about TWI. We have plenty of threads devoted to that already. Of course, if you had actually read the thread, or at least the first post in it, you would have known that.
Yeah, we gotta get Jerry in the class so he can be a 'quality GSC believer' .
quote: The value of the discussion, IMO, is not whether the phrase ever had/has any virtue or merit, but in pointing out how such a phrase/mandate prompted a shift in thought processes that perhaps rendered a shut-down of conscience.
Remember VP defined 'conscience' as habit patterns of action and thought. But wait! I saw the disney movie Pinnochio and I clearly remember Jiminy Cricket singing to let your conscience be your guide. You can't fool ME!
quote: I think some times that the bible verses are simply an excuse to ignore that which one doesn`t want to hear and address.
quote: So why is it so hard for some people to deal with this? Reasons? Speculations? Inquiring minds would like to know!
"Get over it" has been tweaked into "get over yourself". Nothing wrong with feeling pain or pleasure, but there is a point where dwelling on painful past experiences is bad for you. Then the pain becomes your whole identity. That old Elton John line comes to mind.....'Levon wears his war wound like a crown'. (this is my pain; ain't it purty?)
It is THOSE people who need to get over it (themselves).
Hm - weird wording (spooky). My friend actually told me to get over myself when I was upset about what was happening with my dad after not even a week of him being in his coma. I was certainly not really to "be over it" or "get over myself" yet.
My whole thing is - how do we know when people should be over it? I didn't think a week was or is sufficient for myself... She belives that I should have gotten over myself almost instantly. She gave me evidence that she would have been okay herself as she went through a similar situation.
So who is she to tell me when to get over myself? Who are we to tell others when they should stop hurting? Isn't that just a little cruel?
... because I would have felt my voice was once again silenced.
Great point, Penworks... how many years did we all spend holding our tongues? Not asking questions, not demanding answers and accountability... those questions and red flags don't "dissipate" just because we didn't say them out loud. Most of the time they stay with you, just hidden, until you can't hide them anymore and they all come spilling out.
So who is she to tell me when to get over myself? Who are we to tell others when they should stop hurting? Isn't that just a little cruel?
Yup, that's it, exactly!!
There is definately a point where you can cross over the line from "dealing with my crap" to "dwelling in my crap" and while the first is helpful and necessary, the second is unhelpful and destructive. But it is a fine line and maybe a close friend or family member might be able to know when someone has gone over that line and needs to "let it go, already" I don't see how anyone can make that judgement on face value, and certainly not over the internet, lol.
So, I don't think most of us here mind the message "at some point, you need to get over it" I think what we resent is someone we don't know who doesn't really know us, saying THEY think its time for us to "get over it". That kind of statement just feeds the monster because (as penworks mentioned) we spent too much of our lives being told what to do, think, and feel and THAT is what we are really over with!!!
I don't have a problem with Galatians; I have a problem with your wrong dividing of it. You keep insisting that it says people are of the flesh. It doesn't. That's like saying that some people are of the earth while others aren't. EVERYBODY lives on the earth;and everybody has flesh. Romans 8 says God condemned sin in the flesh. It doesn't say he condemned VP in the flesh.
Furthermore, you conclude that salvation is by works. It's not; it's by grace. You'll be glad about that someday; trust me.
The words are pretty clear and concise. I am sorry that contradicts what you personally wish to believe.
Believe me, I understand that Galatians 5 has to be ignored entirely, in order for vpw to have any credibility or his doctrine to be reliable. How convenient in order to dismiss the evil that he did in his life time :(
I am sorry, but it states clearly and simply ....the people who do what wierwille did are of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God pure and simple. People who are of the spirit behave in an entirely different manner...
Jesus said that fruit of the spirit was how we would recognise one another.
The words are pretty clear and concise. I am sorry that contradicts what you personally wish to believe.
Believe me, I understand that Galatians 5 has to be ignored entirely, in order for vpw to have any credibility or his doctrine to be reliable. How convenient in order to dismiss the evil that he did in his life time :(
I am sorry, but it states clearly and simply ....the people who do what wierwille did are of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God pure and simple. People who are of the spirit behave in an entirely different manner...
Jesus said that fruit of the spirit was how we would recognise one another.
Wierwille fails the test.
The French lady next to me would like to know if all that French kissing and Oral stuff means ‘they’ will not ‘inherit the kingdom’ either...or is this just an American Cult Translation of the Bible?
I give up, but if Dr. Viper is going to hell by failing the ‘test’, what’s in store for the rest of us?
I don`t know what on earth you are talking about . The verses are pretty clear if you read them.
French and oral stuff aren`t mentioned per say.
Like I said, there are plenty of ready made excuses to dismiss the significance of the 5th chapter. I don`t know, maybe we do it because we don`t like what it might say or indicate about ourselves.
The words are pretty clear and concise. I am sorry that contradicts what you personally wish to believe.
Believe me, I understand that Galatians 5 has to be ignored entirely, in order for vpw to have any credibility or his doctrine to be reliable. How convenient in order to dismiss the evil that he did in his life time
I am sorry, but it states clearly and simply ....the people who do what wierwille did are of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God pure and simple. People who are of the spirit behave in an entirely different manner...
Jesus said that fruit of the spirit was how we would recognise one another.
Wierwille fails the test.
Sounds more like someone is purposely making VPW the so they can appear to everyone else like: and using the bible to do it.
But you're not the only one doing it. I recognize it for what it is.
What is it - really?
This is: "Demonizing the Enemy". Evil needs a face. We make up horrific acts for which we blame our "enemy" and use them for propaganda purposes. We did it with Japan and Spain in previous wars. Emotionally-laden propaganda techniques are dangerous and incredibly destructive. They do not serve humanity, promote peace and understanding between people. They serve and promote politics. Vicious depictions have always been used to whip up support for both political and religious causes. You can not fight a war and get others to fight your war without demonizing your enemy first.
Wierwilles evil actions stand all by themselves friend. Galatians condemns them as those of someone of the flesh.
Where do you see ME in any part of this equation? I didn`t make vp do what he did. I didn`t write galatians.
Why are YOU demonizing and condemning me for what vpw did and the scriptures condemn?
Dear Lady,
It’s soon bedtime for bonzo bumpy ce soir. But before the gs soap for tonight closes, could you please detail for the audience what your personal galatians grievance is against the the ol’ doc ?
I mean what did he do to you personally that you hold such a long standing hatred of the man? And do you really think he’s hell bound because 20+ years ago a bunch of kids bought into an ill spent youth of cult adulation?
Maybe I missed something in the “get over it” department, but when do people “grow up” and live what’s left of their lives?? <_<
Bumpy, why can you not ask me these questions in a polite, respectful way? Why the mockery and derision? Does that some how make you right? More spiritual?
I`ll answere you, not a problem, you assumption that my utter and complete contempt of the man is due to something that he personally did to me is mistaken. My outrage is based on the evil that he perpetrated on our brothers and our sisters, the evil that his doctrine permitted and encouraged that resulted in the destruction of our lives, the dismanteling of our families and the death of our children....all accomplished in the name of God.
Here is what galations sais....
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here is my personal grievance against the *ol doc* according to galatians...
Lessee now sexaul immorality I`d say the drugging and rape of our trusting teenaged sisters falls under that category...umm next...moral impurity??? The stalking and seduction of teenaged girls based on their history of child hood sexual abuse and promising to heal them with sex, would fall into THAT category..... promiscuity??? ...Any question??? Oh yeah....idolotry I?? sorcery?? I don`t know...hatreds...yeah I heard of some of his hatred...strife?/ Ever been on the recieving end of one of his face meltings?? I`d have to say yes....jealousy...damned right, of anyone who showed any ability that superceded his own....out bursts of anger?? are you kidding?? Big check mark there....selfish ambitions...yup, dissensions, all the way back to the beginning of his days as a minister, factions...dunno bout that one, envy> yeah, drunkenness...his indulgiance in alcohol was legendary, carousing? anything similar, what do you think the party bus would fall under???
Galatians finishes with......*Those that practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God*
Seems pretty cut and dry to me, no matter HOW you feel about vpw.
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men (and women) to do (and say) nothing." My paraphrase.
I, for one, have done a LOT of growing up and healing since my first meal at this diner. I'm grateful that other patrons have been willing to put their experiences on the table. It's been a significant part of my growth and I suspect I'm not alone. I think that's the ultimate purpose of the cafe.
For what it's worth, I don't get that rascal is relating to her knowledge or experiences of TWI in an unhealthy or "stuck in it" way, though I'm not a psychologist or counsellor, or any such thing. If I did think that, I'd say so, or probably pm her.
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men (and women) to do (and say) nothing." My paraphrase.
It's been attributed to Edmund Burke.
I, for one, have done a LOT of growing up and healing since my first meal at this diner. I'm grateful that other patrons have been willing to put their experiences on the table. It's been a significant part of my growth and I suspect I'm not alone. I think that's the ultimate purpose of the cafe.
For what it's worth, I don't get that rascal is relating to her knowledge or experiences of TWI in an unhealthy or "stuck in it" way, though I'm not a psychologist or counsellor, or any such thing. If I did think that, I'd say so, or probably pm her.
~Cinder
Just because YOU'VE grown up since arriving doesn't mean everyone has.
Doesn't it strike you as mildly ironic that those who haven't, who are "stuck" in their development
at whatever point they were in twi, would be the ones quick to accuse those who've
Sounds more like someone is purposely making VPW the so they can appear to everyone else like: and using the bible to do it.
Someone's pretending vpw didn't do the evil deeds they did, and pretending the Bible didn't condemn actions he did.]
This is: "Demonizing the Enemy". Evil needs a face. We make up horrific acts for which we blame our "enemy" and use them for propaganda purposes.
Once again, WTH's posts have lost connection with the thread they're on.
vpw DID horrific acts. Period.
He is to be blamed for the horrific acts he did.
Why do we bring it up?
Because claiming he did not, and made-up virtuous acts are attributed to him, and used for propaganda purposes.
This is easy, since vpw himself did this for more than a decade.
We did it with Japan and Spain in previous wars. Emotionally-laden propaganda techniques are dangerous and incredibly destructive. They do not serve humanity, promote peace and understanding between people. They serve and promote politics. Vicious depictions have always been used to whip up support for both political and religious causes. You can not fight a war and get others to fight your war without demonizing your enemy first.
WTH's just made up a horrific act, blamed rascal, for it, and is using it for propaganda purposes.
Like was donw with Japan and Spain once. He's made up emotionally-laden propaganda.
He doesn't serve humanity, promote peace or understanding. He's got his own personal "political" agenda,
and has made up his vicious depictions are attempts to attack others he disagrees with.
He's got to demonize the reasonable posters FIRST, however.
quote: The verses are pretty clear if you read them.
But YOU still don't read them; how would you know. Galatians does NOT say that people are of the flesh or of the spirit. Verse 17 says the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. Where does this take place? Inside each of us who are born again. Those unsaved don't HAVE a spirit for the flesh to lust against. DUH!!!
When it says those people shall not inherit the kingdom of God, it means they won't get rewards. Besides all this, you don't know what really went on. All you have is GSC testimony; VP can't give his testimony. You were never brainwashed; you came to TWI freely just like all the rest of us because you saw some genuine fruit of the spirit that was lacking in your upbringing. So now 30 years later you find out some info about a guy you probably never met personally and it's all a scam and you have to blame it all on a dead guy.
Some may call this "mature". I don't. You're in more bondage now than you ever were in TWI and appear to be intent on staying that way indefinitely.
Sounds like quite a bit of staining at gnats to me John.
I think the words are straight forward and accurate as they stand, I am sorry that they appear to say that which you do not wish to believe.
To me these verses appear to be a barometer to deduce whether one is of the flesh or of the spirit plain and simple. What *no inheritence in the kingdom of God* means...I don`t know. I just know that it says that those who did what vpw did...will have none.....I also know that in other scriptures that describe what he did, we are told to stay away from guys like that.
I prefer to believe what the scriptures say concerning a man who would rape my sister in christ and destroy my brothers, our families, and our children...shrug
Contrary to your assumption, yes... I have personally met the man. I have met the people whom were negatively impacted by his action. My own life was negatively impacted by his doctrine and his ministry.
Your summation of my life, and my freedom today is rediculous. You see exactly what you want to see John, (unless you are just being intentionally dishonest) whether it be in me, my life, my motives, not to mention vpw and twi. In each of the situations you listed, your impression is mistaken.
Someone's pretending vpw didn't do the evil deeds they did, and pretending the Bible didn't condemn actions he did.
Someone else is pretending they are holier-than-thou while pretending the Bible actually supports their arrogant, self-righteous, religous attitutude.
(But I don't believe they are pretending - they're just being hypocrites.)
Once again, WTH's posts have lost connection with the thread they're on.
vpw DID horrific acts. Period.
But your sins are holier than VPW's - or perhaps someone else you don't like in TWI?
(Or maybe we're supposed to be convinced you are the sinless one?)
He is to be blamed for the horrific acts he did.
By the same measure you can be blamed for the sins and horrific acts YOU'VE done .
(But since WW's sins are holier-than-thou that apparently excuses all of his sins and all his "horrific acts". Yeah, right.)
Why do we bring it up?
Because the: 'whoever the "we are" who keep bringing it up' are either denying (or are ignorant) of the work and accomplishments of Jesus Christ.
Because claiming he did not, and made-up virtuous acts are attributed to him, and used for propaganda purposes.
This is easy, since vpw himself did this for more than a decade.
This is actually WW denying (or being ignorant of) the work Jesus Christ accomplished to remit sins, as one has to deny the accomplished work of Jesus Christ to still lay the blame for VPW's sins on him - just as I would have to deny the works of Jesus Christ to still lay the blame for your sins and your "horrific acts" on you! If we can still blame VPW's for all of his sins, by the same measure we can still blame you for all of yours. This is merely someone either denying (or being ignorant) of the accomplished work of Jesus Christ.
As I stated earlier, this is purposely making VPW the so someone can appear to everyone else like: and using the bible to do it.
I frankly don't give a c**p about "someone's" interpretation of the bible - especially when their interpretation is USED to make themselves appear holy and righteous at the expense of condeming someone else. THAT IS WHAT PROPAGANDA IS ABOUT! It is also the reason I could care less about any of the remarks WW made after this.
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cinderpelt
I think this is a discussion about how we, as individuals swallowed yet another "catch-phrase" in a very manipulative paradigm, and incorporated it into how we lived and related to others, in our, and their "pain or pleasure". The value of the discussion, IMO, is not whether the phrase ever had/has any virtue or merit, but in pointing out how such a phrase/mandate prompted a shift in thought processes that perhaps rendered a shut-down of conscience.
~Cinder
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Belle
I'm quoting this post in response to a rather nice post by Son of the Master over here because it serves as a perfect example of what this thread is about.
Welcome to the Cafe, jerrymcsherry, may I suggest that you look around a bit and get to know us and the place before you start swinging that sword of judgmentalism at folks.
Also, here are a couple of threads that are "must reads" for new folks, especially ones who stomp in here like a bull in a china shop:
New Arrival Guide to the Cafe
What is The Way?
P.S. The "Greasespot Gems" thread you posted on is for recording excellent posts by others, not a place for you to put what you think is great about TWI. We have plenty of threads devoted to that already. Of course, if you had actually read the thread, or at least the first post in it, you would have known that.
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johniam
quote: Welcome to the Cafe, jerrymcsherry, may I suggest that you look around a bit and get to know us and the place before you start swinging that sword of judgmentalism at folks.
Also, here are a couple of threads that are "must reads" for new folks, especially ones who stomp in here like a bull in a china shop:
New Arrival Guide to the Cafe
What is The Way?
P.S. The "Greasespot Gems" thread you posted on is for recording excellent posts by others, not a place for you to put what you think is great about TWI. We have plenty of threads devoted to that already. Of course, if you had actually read the thread, or at least the first post in it, you would have known that.
Yeah, we gotta get Jerry in the class so he can be a 'quality GSC believer'
.
quote: The value of the discussion, IMO, is not whether the phrase ever had/has any virtue or merit, but in pointing out how such a phrase/mandate prompted a shift in thought processes that perhaps rendered a shut-down of conscience.
Remember VP defined 'conscience' as habit patterns of action and thought. But wait! I saw the disney movie Pinnochio and I clearly remember Jiminy Cricket singing to let your conscience be your guide. You can't fool ME!
quote: I think some times that the bible verses are simply an excuse to ignore that which one doesn`t want to hear and address.
Yeah, like you with Gal. 5.
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Nero
Hm - weird wording (spooky). My friend actually told me to get over myself when I was upset about what was happening with my dad after not even a week of him being in his coma. I was certainly not really to "be over it" or "get over myself" yet.
My whole thing is - how do we know when people should be over it? I didn't think a week was or is sufficient for myself... She belives that I should have gotten over myself almost instantly. She gave me evidence that she would have been okay herself as she went through a similar situation.
So who is she to tell me when to get over myself? Who are we to tell others when they should stop hurting? Isn't that just a little cruel?
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TheHighWay
Great point, Penworks... how many years did we all spend holding our tongues? Not asking questions, not demanding answers and accountability... those questions and red flags don't "dissipate" just because we didn't say them out loud. Most of the time they stay with you, just hidden, until you can't hide them anymore and they all come spilling out.
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TheHighWay
Yup, that's it, exactly!!
There is definately a point where you can cross over the line from "dealing with my crap" to "dwelling in my crap" and while the first is helpful and necessary, the second is unhelpful and destructive. But it is a fine line and maybe a close friend or family member might be able to know when someone has gone over that line and needs to "let it go, already" I don't see how anyone can make that judgement on face value, and certainly not over the internet, lol.
So, I don't think most of us here mind the message "at some point, you need to get over it" I think what we resent is someone we don't know who doesn't really know us, saying THEY think its time for us to "get over it". That kind of statement just feeds the monster because (as penworks mentioned) we spent too much of our lives being told what to do, think, and feel and THAT is what we are really over with!!!
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rascal
John, My statement stands, I don`t understand your rancor, nor your attempts to discredit it by using unrelated posts.
I personally don`t understand your problem with galatians either ...shrug.
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johniam
I don't have a problem with Galatians; I have a problem with your wrong dividing of it. You keep insisting that it says people are of the flesh. It doesn't. That's like saying that some people are of the earth while others aren't. EVERYBODY lives on the earth;and everybody has flesh. Romans 8 says God condemned sin in the flesh. It doesn't say he condemned VP in the flesh.
Furthermore, you conclude that salvation is by works. It's not; it's by grace. You'll be glad about that someday; trust me.
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rascal
The words are pretty clear and concise. I am sorry that contradicts what you personally wish to believe.
Believe me, I understand that Galatians 5 has to be ignored entirely, in order for vpw to have any credibility or his doctrine to be reliable. How convenient in order to dismiss the evil that he did in his life time :(
I am sorry, but it states clearly and simply ....the people who do what wierwille did are of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of God pure and simple. People who are of the spirit behave in an entirely different manner...
Jesus said that fruit of the spirit was how we would recognise one another.
Wierwille fails the test.
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Bumpy
The French lady next to me would like to know if all that French kissing and Oral stuff means ‘they’ will not ‘inherit the kingdom’ either...or is this just an American Cult Translation of the Bible?
I give up, but if Dr. Viper is going to hell by failing the ‘test’, what’s in store for the rest of us?
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rascal
I don`t know what on earth you are talking about . The verses are pretty clear if you read them.
French and oral stuff aren`t mentioned per say.
Like I said, there are plenty of ready made excuses to dismiss the significance of the 5th chapter. I don`t know, maybe we do it because we don`t like what it might say or indicate about ourselves.
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What The Hey
Sounds more like someone is purposely making VPW the
so they can appear to everyone else like: 
and using the bible to do it.
But you're not the only one doing it. I recognize it for what it is.
What is it - really?
This is: "Demonizing the Enemy". Evil needs a face. We make up horrific acts for which we blame our "enemy" and use them for propaganda purposes. We did it with Japan and Spain in previous wars. Emotionally-laden propaganda techniques are dangerous and incredibly destructive. They do not serve humanity, promote peace and understanding between people. They serve and promote politics. Vicious depictions have always been used to whip up support for both political and religious causes. You can not fight a war and get others to fight your war without demonizing your enemy first.
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rascal
Uhhh me demonize ??
Wierwilles evil actions stand all by themselves friend. Galatians condemns them as those of someone of the flesh.
Where do you see ME in any part of this equation? I didn`t make vp do what he did. I didn`t write galatians.
Why are YOU demonizing and condemning me for what vpw did and the scriptures condemn?
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Bumpy
Dear Lady,
It’s soon bedtime for bonzo bumpy ce soir. But before the gs soap for tonight closes, could you please detail for the audience what your personal galatians grievance is against the the ol’ doc ?
I mean what did he do to you personally that you hold such a long standing hatred of the man? And do you really think he’s hell bound because 20+ years ago a bunch of kids bought into an ill spent youth of cult adulation?
Maybe I missed something in the “get over it” department, but when do people “grow up” and live what’s left of their lives?? <_<
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rascal
Bumpy, why can you not ask me these questions in a polite, respectful way? Why the mockery and derision? Does that some how make you right? More spiritual?
I`ll answere you, not a problem, you assumption that my utter and complete contempt of the man is due to something that he personally did to me is mistaken. My outrage is based on the evil that he perpetrated on our brothers and our sisters, the evil that his doctrine permitted and encouraged that resulted in the destruction of our lives, the dismanteling of our families and the death of our children....all accomplished in the name of God.
Here is what galations sais....
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here is my personal grievance against the *ol doc* according to galatians...
Lessee now sexaul immorality I`d say the drugging and rape of our trusting teenaged sisters falls under that category...umm next...moral impurity??? The stalking and seduction of teenaged girls based on their history of child hood sexual abuse and promising to heal them with sex, would fall into THAT category..... promiscuity??? ...Any question??? Oh yeah....idolotry I?? sorcery?? I don`t know...hatreds...yeah I heard of some of his hatred...strife?/ Ever been on the recieving end of one of his face meltings?? I`d have to say yes....jealousy...damned right, of anyone who showed any ability that superceded his own....out bursts of anger?? are you kidding?? Big check mark there....selfish ambitions...yup, dissensions, all the way back to the beginning of his days as a minister, factions...dunno bout that one, envy> yeah, drunkenness...his indulgiance in alcohol was legendary, carousing? anything similar, what do you think the party bus would fall under???
Galatians finishes with......*Those that practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God*
Seems pretty cut and dry to me, no matter HOW you feel about vpw.
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cinderpelt
What's that famous quote?
"All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men (and women) to do (and say) nothing." My paraphrase.
I, for one, have done a LOT of growing up and healing since my first meal at this diner. I'm grateful that other patrons have been willing to put their experiences on the table. It's been a significant part of my growth and I suspect I'm not alone. I think that's the ultimate purpose of the cafe.
For what it's worth, I don't get that rascal is relating to her knowledge or experiences of TWI in an unhealthy or "stuck in it" way, though I'm not a psychologist or counsellor, or any such thing. If I did think that, I'd say so, or probably pm her.
~Cinder
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WordWolf
It's been attributed to Edmund Burke.
Just because YOU'VE grown up since arriving doesn't mean everyone has.
Doesn't it strike you as mildly ironic that those who haven't, who are "stuck" in their development
at whatever point they were in twi, would be the ones quick to accuse those who've
matured as having been "stuck"?
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WordWolf
Someone's pretending vpw didn't do the evil deeds they did, and pretending the Bible didn't condemn actions he did.]
Once again, WTH's posts have lost connection with the thread they're on.vpw DID horrific acts. Period.
He is to be blamed for the horrific acts he did.
Why do we bring it up?
Because claiming he did not, and made-up virtuous acts are attributed to him, and used for propaganda purposes.
This is easy, since vpw himself did this for more than a decade.
WTH's just made up a horrific act, blamed rascal, for it, and is using it for propaganda purposes.
Like was donw with Japan and Spain once. He's made up emotionally-laden propaganda.
He doesn't serve humanity, promote peace or understanding. He's got his own personal "political" agenda,
and has made up his vicious depictions are attempts to attack others he disagrees with.
He's got to demonize the reasonable posters FIRST, however.
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cinderpelt
WW said:
Just because YOU'VE grown up since arriving doesn't mean everyone has.
Doesn't it strike you as mildly ironic that those who haven't, who are "stuck" in their development
at whatever point they were in twi, would be the ones quick to accuse those who've
matured as having been "stuck"?
Actually, it's blatant! Just pointing out what it's meant to me, personally.
~Cinder
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johniam
quote: The verses are pretty clear if you read them.
But YOU still don't read them; how would you know. Galatians does NOT say that people are of the flesh or of the spirit. Verse 17 says the flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. Where does this take place? Inside each of us who are born again. Those unsaved don't HAVE a spirit for the flesh to lust against. DUH!!!
When it says those people shall not inherit the kingdom of God, it means they won't get rewards. Besides all this, you don't know what really went on. All you have is GSC testimony; VP can't give his testimony. You were never brainwashed; you came to TWI freely just like all the rest of us because you saw some genuine fruit of the spirit that was lacking in your upbringing. So now 30 years later you find out some info about a guy you probably never met personally and it's all a scam and you have to blame it all on a dead guy.
Some may call this "mature". I don't. You're in more bondage now than you ever were in TWI and appear to be intent on staying that way indefinitely.
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rascal
Sounds like quite a bit of staining at gnats to me John.
I think the words are straight forward and accurate as they stand, I am sorry that they appear to say that which you do not wish to believe.
To me these verses appear to be a barometer to deduce whether one is of the flesh or of the spirit plain and simple. What *no inheritence in the kingdom of God* means...I don`t know. I just know that it says that those who did what vpw did...will have none.....I also know that in other scriptures that describe what he did, we are told to stay away from guys like that.
I prefer to believe what the scriptures say concerning a man who would rape my sister in christ and destroy my brothers, our families, and our children...shrug
Contrary to your assumption, yes... I have personally met the man. I have met the people whom were negatively impacted by his action. My own life was negatively impacted by his doctrine and his ministry.
Your summation of my life, and my freedom today is rediculous. You see exactly what you want to see John, (unless you are just being intentionally dishonest) whether it be in me, my life, my motives, not to mention vpw and twi. In each of the situations you listed, your impression is mistaken.
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What The Hey
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What The Hey
Perhaps it is you who are mistaken my friend - about a great many things.
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waysider
Perhaps the VP apologists who are in denial that they were hoodwinked (like the rest of us) are the ones who really need to-----------
Get over it!
He was a con artist, fellas, a flim-flam man.
He was no modern day David or Paul.
His so-called "ministry" was a self serving business designed to satisfy his own personal lusts.
He did so at your expense, in case you hadn't noticed.
Wallow in your self delusion if that's your choice.
Personally, I think you VP idolaters are the ones who really need to -----------
Get over it!
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